African Safari

[Bevo 13592]

16 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Fall is nice, and hardly any cobras then.

Yeah, but I think that is when the Anopheles, malaria-carrying mosquitos and the tsetse flies are in full force.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

9 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Yeah, but I think that is when the Anopheles, malaria-carrying mosquitos and the tsetse flies are in full force.

Depends where you go.  We were in South Africa,  northern county of Zulu Nyala, Cape Town, and points west, and east along the Indian and Atlantic shelf.  Didn't even have to get any shots before we left.  Our guide said in Summer cobras were everywhere, and very territorial.  he said they seemed to pop up everywhere.

Our daughter found an 18", what they called a common African brown snake, wrapped around the supply line on the back of the toilet in her lodge room. Common African brown huh  ?  The guys who came to get rid of it were afraid of it like it was a mamba.... just saying.....

We went out in the morning and it would be upper 50's and about 70 by the time we came back for lunch. Afternoon trips would be about 70 when we went out and drop into the middle to lower 60's as the sun dipped out of view.  Fall's nice because the weather is still warmish most of the day.

 

[HenryJames 66142]

This feels like another elaborate attempt to kill your wife.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

This feels like another elaborate attempt to kill your wife.

Can't trust a bellhop to get room assignments right...

[52-80 19214]

43 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 

Our daughter found an 18", what they called a common African brown snake,

 

i think ive seen a movie like this

[Ghost of LL 15539]

2 hours ago, bigup2dahorns said:

Good thread. Haven’t been yet but high on the bucket list. What are the opinions on best time of year to go? Summer Vs winter?

From what I can tell, and speaking solely of East Africa (i.e., Kenya and Tanzania), it looks like July-September are kind of the prime times.

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

You already tried to off your wife via the cops. Now you want to arm her with a camera and send her into the jungle? The insurance company ain't gonna be too happy about that.

 . . . that's right, babe--see if you can get a real tight shot of that hippo.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

If you can swing it, a good telescope is great to take along. Our son had the entire lodge looking in on his observations during our week there. The skies are big, black, and glorious in Africa.  He took a large aperture Celestron with a computer interfaced gimbal to lock into different star formations. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Onboard 2.0

[Bevo 13592]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If you can swing it, a good telescope is great to take along. Our son had the entire lodge looking in on his observations during our week there. The skies are big, black, and glorious in Africa.  He took a large aperture Celestron with a computer interfaced gimbal to lock into different star formations. 

How big are those? I was thinking about taking the family to the Cook Islands and there is no light pollution there.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Bevo said:

How big are those? I was thinking about taking the family to the Cook Islands and there is no light pollution there.

His is a tripod mounted unit. 8-10" dia, 24-30" long unit with accessories, and his lap top.  It fit in a small roll on bag.

[pantone159 719]

I enjoyed the Selous reserve. The Selous river runs through there, and you get to take a boat along the river, and get a different view of the wildlife. I especially wanted to see crocodiles, and I was not there at the right time for the Serengeti, and the Selous did not disappoint. Also lots of hippos, giraffes, very colorful bee eater birds there. I flew in on a 12-seat or so plane to a tiny dirt airstrip, and was then picked up in a small boat for the ride to the lodge. I thought it was a really cool way to arrive.

 

[52-80 19214]

1 hour ago, pantone159 said:

I enjoyed the Selous reserve. The Selous river runs through there, and you get to take a boat along the river, and get a different view of the wildlife. I especially wanted to see crocodiles, and I was not there at the right time for the Serengeti, and the Selous did not disappoint. Also lots of hippos, giraffes, very colorful bee eater birds there. I flew in on a 12-seat or so plane to a tiny dirt airstrip, and was then picked up in a small boat for the ride to the lodge. I thought it was a really cool way to arrive.

 

Another cool way to arrive

[Ghost of LL 15539]

So how much time do I actually need looking at animals?  I see a lot of these trips are for 10-12 days.  Is that too much?

And should I spend any time in Dar es Salaam or Zanzibar (birthplace of Freddie Mercury)?

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Ghost of LL said:

So how much time do I actually need looking at animals?  I see a lot of these trips are for 10-12 days.  Is that too much?

And should I spend any time in Dar es Salaam or Zanzibar (birthplace of Freddie Mercury)?

 

5-7 days, and you'll have seen 'em all several times over, and that's plenty long enough.  The big 5 is the list everybody wants to check off.  I'd spend a week in the bush, and then spend another week seeing something other than animals if possible. It's a damn long way to only go for a week.

[conVINCEd 21469]

15 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

So how much time do I actually need looking at animals?  I see a lot of these trips are for 10-12 days.  Is that too much?

And should I spend any time in Dar es Salaam or Zanzibar (birthplace of Freddie Mercury)?

 

I don’t know anyone who has anything good to say about Dar.  Zanzibar looks lovely.  An additional, but expensive, add-on would be mountain gorilla trekking in Rwanda or Uganda.  I know a few people who have done this, and they all say it is one of the best things they have ever done.  Kigali, the capitol of Rwanda, looks like a really cool city, and would be a sobering history lesson for the kids depending on their ages.  From Kigali you just hire a driver to take you to the national parks where the gorillas live.  

[Gladeite 375]

Dar is a tough town, I would avoid it.  

Zanzibar is great.  Beautiful beaches and resorts to match your budget.

Kilimanjaro is a great family trip, depending on age of kids.  

Selous is beautiful but hard to get to.  Typically have to fly in on a bush plane to the tented resorts.  

[52-80 19214]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

So how much time do I actually need looking at animals?  I see a lot of these trips are for 10-12 days.  Is that too much?

And should I spend any time in Dar es Salaam or Zanzibar (birthplace of Freddie Mercury)?

 

1 day per park, or 2 if you're really into animals.  So 5-10 days total.  Sitting in a jeep every single day from dusk til dawn gets exhausting quick. 

DAR is terrible.  Beaches in Zanzibar resort is a relaxing way to bookend safaris.  But I had a huge guilt trip, because we stayed in a high end resort, but getting to and from there (e.g. for day trips to zanz center like Freddy's birthplace), you see how totally fucked up the country is.  Shit is unpaved, cratered out, honestly looked like prehistoric setting. 

[52-80 19214]

I've been to India and Cambodia and such, but no place made me feel as guilty due to the stark contrast as a beach resort in tanzania

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

I've been to India and Cambodia and such, but no place made me feel as guilty due to the stark contrast as a beach resort in tanzania

"Informal housing" in South Africa sounds so quaintly British, and cottage like.  More like containers, cardboard, and corrugated tin, with moldy rotting carpeting on the dirt floors, and an electrical wire strung to a pole with abut 600 other wires.  They're literally across the highways from Cape Towns multi million dollar high rises.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I want to go to Zimbabwe in the next couple of years.  It appears to have some of the best weather, wildlife and scenery.

[TexanTraveling 42]

should check out the skeleton coast in Namibia 

[next2naus 439]

did a week in Kruger back in 1999, fuckign amazing. I'm sure its all built up and fabulous (crowded) now. It was crazy then, open back trucks. fucking great. I recommend it

 

people who kill these animals have tiny dicks. no if's, and's or but's. 

[Underdog 28762]

On 10/22/2019 at 9:16 AM, 52-80 said:

i think ive seen a movie like this

I believe her name is Becky. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 hours ago, TexanTraveling said:

should check out the skeleton coast in Namibia 

That's where all the SA folks we met said they went for safaris.

[TexanTraveling 42]

9 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That's where all the SA folks we met said they went for safaris.

Agreed. kenya, tanzania, SA, it is where all the tourists go for safari. You want to see something unique, head to Namibia.

[Ghost of LL 15539]

38 minutes ago, TexanTraveling said:

Agreed. kenya, tanzania, SA, it is where all the tourists go for safari. You want to see something unique, head to Namibia.

Well, in fairness, I'm a tourist.  And there's a reason people go Tanzania and Kenya--that's where you're most likely to see the big herbivores and cats.

I was thinking of spending a few days in Doha on the back-end, which would give that "unique" desert kind of thing that you get in Namibia.  I was also thinking of splitting between the Serengeti and Victoria Falls, but that's really tough to make those flights work out.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

13 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Well, in fairness, I'm a tourist.  And there's a reason people go Tanzania and Kenya--that's where you're most likely to see the big herbivores and cats.

I was thinking of spending a few days in Doha on the back-end, which would give that "unique" desert kind of thing that you get in Namibia.  I was also thinking of splitting between the Serengeti and Victoria Falls, but that's really tough to make those flights work out.

I'd do Victoria falls over the Serengeti, especially if you've already done the safari thing.

[Ghost of LL 15539]

But I haven't done the safari thing.  So that's why I'm thinking we need to do the Serengeti.  Plus, the Four Seasons there looks pretty fucking choice.

There is one flight from DAR to Livingstone, Zambia that takes 11 hours bouncing from one African airport to another, reminiscent of the old days of Tree Top Airways and trying to fly from Houston to El Paso.  That'd be kind of fun, but it'd piss off my wife and kids.  So realistically, it looks like I need to pick between either Kenya/Tanzania on the one hand or Zambia/Botswana on the other.

[conVINCEd 21469]

11 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

But I haven't done the safari thing.  So that's why I'm thinking we need to do the Serengeti.  Plus, the Four Seasons there looks pretty fucking choice.

There is one flight from DAR to Livingstone, Zambia that takes 11 hours bouncing from one African airport to another, reminiscent of the old days of Tree Top Airways and trying to fly from Houston to El Paso.  That'd be kind of fun, but it'd piss off my wife and kids.  So realistically, it looks like I need to pick between either Kenya/Tanzania on the one hand or Zambia/Botswana on the other.

There’s a direct flight from Nairobi to Vic Falls, but it looks pricey no matter how far out you book it.

*I may be kicking the tires on planning another trip right now.

Edited October 24, 2019 by conVINCEd

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

But I haven't done the safari thing.  So that's why I'm thinking we need to do the Serengeti.  Plus, the Four Seasons there looks pretty fucking choice.

There is one flight from DAR to Livingstone, Zambia that takes 11 hours bouncing from one African airport to another, reminiscent of the old days of Tree Top Airways and trying to fly from Houston to El Paso.  That'd be kind of fun, but it'd piss off my wife and kids.  So realistically, it looks like I need to pick between either Kenya/Tanzania on the one hand or Zambia/Botswana on the other.

Sorry, thought you were talking about doing a safari then hitting both of those destinations.  The safari for sure then .  Our kids were just getting ready to hit HS when we took them, and it was the trip of a lifetime (so far).  I'd still try to take in a city or some other very different experience  as part of your overall journey.  

The long flight to SA made us add an extra week since we didn't know if we'd ever get back to that part of the world.

[Ghost of LL 15539]

53 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Sorry, thought you were talking about doing a safari then hitting both of those destinations.  The safari for sure then .  Our kids were just getting ready to hit HS when we took them, and it was the trip of a lifetime (so far).  I'd still try to take in a city or some other very different experience  as part of your overall journey.  

The long flight to SA made us add an extra week since we didn't know if we'd ever get back to that part of the world.

Yeah--this is our first trip to Subsaharan Africa (Mrs.LL and I have been to Egypt, but that doesn't really count as "Africa").  So given that, it seems to me that the Kenya/Tanzania thing is almost de rigueur.  

 

[conVINCEd 21469]

How old are your kids, and how many total days do you have?

[Ghost of LL 15539]

They'll be 9 (daughter) and 11 (son).  I could probably do up to three weeks off.

[conVINCEd 21469]

I would do this:

Cape Town: 5-6 nights.  Use Airbnb.  $250-350/night  will get you a ballin house in the really nice neighborhoods just under Table Mountain or Camps Bay.  Uber everywhere, it’s cheap and driving in town is not fun.  Google what do do in town, there is no shortage of options.  Go down to the Cape one day, hire a driver for this, it’s not that expensive.  See the penguins on your way back.  Once your done with Cape Town, Uber back to the airport and rent a car (no need for 4x4).  Drive to Hermanus, it’s about 2 hours.  The driving outside of Cape Town proper is really easy and quite nice. 

Hermanus: 2-3 nights.  Cool little fishing village.  $200-300/night will get you an oceanfront home where you can watch whales from your veranda. Eat lots of good seafood and do a boat tour to get up close to the whales.  Gansbaai is 30 minutes away, and that is the great white shark capital of the world.  The cage diving isn’t as scary as it sounds, and if someone doesn’t want to get in the cage, they can still go out on the boat and see the sharks from a few feet away.  Not sure if they will allow the kids to do this.  Head back toward Cape Town and stop in Franschhoek or Stellenbosch.  Drive is 1.5 hrs.

Franschoek/Stellenbosch:  Wine country. 1-2 nights. Stay on a farm.  Some have lots of kids activities to keep them occupied while you and the Mrs. get your drink on.  Go back to CPT (30 minutes) airport and fly to Maun, Botswana.  There’s a direct flight available.

Botswana:  Safari.  6-8 nights. From Maun you will take a bush plane to the safari lodges.  Go to Moremi and Chobe game reserves.  There are family friendly lodges, but you need to seek them out.  Some won’t allow kids at all.  You will fly in between lodges.  Many offer deals like stay 3 days get the 4th free.  When you’ve finished you will end up in Kasane, Botswana, which is an hour from Victoria Falls, maybe more depending on how long it takes to cross the border.  Plenty of drivers available to take you.

Victoria Falls: 2 nights.  Fly out of Vic commercially, most likely to JNB, and head home from there.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

I would do this:

Cape Town: 5-6 nights.  Use Airbnb.  $250-350/night  will get you a ballin house in the really nice neighborhoods just under Table Mountain or Camps Bay.  Uber everywhere, it’s cheap and driving in town is not fun.  Google what do do in town, there is no shortage of options.  Go down to the Cape one day, hire a driver for this, it’s not that expensive.  See the penguins on your way back.  Once your done with Cape Town, Uber back to the airport and rent a car (no need for 4x4).  Drive to Hermanus, it’s about 2 hours.  The driving outside of Cape Town proper is really easy and quite nice. 

Hermanus: 2-3 nights.  Cool little fishing village.  $200-300/night will get you an oceanfront home where you can watch whales from your veranda. Eat lots of good seafood and do a boat tour to get up close to the whales.  Gansbaai is 30 minutes away, and that is the great white shark capital of the world.  The cage diving isn’t as scary as it sounds, and if someone doesn’t want to get in the cage, they can still go out on the boat and see the sharks from a few feet away.  Not sure if they will allow the kids to do this.  Head back toward Cape Town and stop in Franschhoek or Stellenbosch.  Drive is 1.5 hrs.

Franschoek/Stellenbosch:  Wine country. 1-2 nights. Stay on a farm.  Some have lots of kids activities to keep them occupied while you and the Mrs. get your drink on.  Go back to CPT (30 minutes) airport and fly to Maun, Botswana.  There’s a direct flight available.

Botswana:  Safari.  6-8 nights. From Maun you will take a bush plane to the safari lodges.  Go to Moremi and Chobe game reserves.  There are family friendly lodges, but you need to seek them out.  Some won’t allow kids at all.  You will fly in between lodges.  Many offer deals like stay 3 days get the 4th free.  When you’ve finished you will end up in Kasane, Botswana, which is an hour from Victoria Falls, maybe more depending on how long it takes to cross the border.  Plenty of drivers available to take you.

Victoria Falls: 2 nights.  Fly out of Vic commercially, most likely to JNB, and head home from there.

Dig it, but I'd do the safari first then do Cape Town and the rest of that itinerary.  Rough it a bit, then do the luxury thing.

[conVINCEd 21469]

22 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Dig it, but I'd do the safari first then do Cape Town and the rest of that itinerary.  Rough it a bit, then do the luxury thing.

He mentioned staying at the Four Seasons in the Serengeti, so I don’t think he’ll be roughing it on safari.  I always try to save the best for last, and that’s the safari IMO (with Vic Falls tacked on so the routing makes sense).  But you could absolutely reverse it and fly into JNB, up to Vic, through Botswana, and out of CPT.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

He mentioned staying at the Four Seasons in the Serengeti, so I don’t think he’ll be roughing it on safari.  I always try to save the best for last, and that’s the safari IMO (with Vic Falls tacked on so the routing makes sense).  But you could absolutely reverse it and fly into JNB, up to Vic, through Botswana, and out of CPT.

Yep probably not much of a down grade at all.  We pretty much did that trip in reverse. Flew into Jberg then to michaels bay, then Zulu Nyala (sort of a Marriot of safaris) for a week. We got our lodge package in an auction for under $1,000 for 2, and added the kids for anther $1,000.

Did St Lucia on the Indian ocean coast for the hippos, crocs, and horse back riding, and schloowschloowi (I'm spelling it phonetically cause the actual park name was so damn long. Where we saw from above, on a 100' bluff, literally a hundred or so elephants converging from everywhere into a river basin.  Even our guide was a little blown away by the number of elephants we were witnessing in that park.  They just kept coming out of the woods into the river from all directions.

Then flew to Cape Town, and did Hermanus, Cape of Good Hope, Table top mountain, the penguins, whale watching, seal island, no shark cages because the seas were to rough.  That drive up the Indian ocean side of the country is breathtaking.

Then drove to Stellenbosch, and Franschook, and did the wine region for 3 days. Back to Cape Town, and the the grueling 19 hour flight back to Dulles.  

We had a van, driver, and a guide for the whole Cape Town, Stellenbosch part of the trip.  The Vic falls thing is something I wish we'd had time to squeeze in.  $35K for all four of us: trip, airfare, gratuities, meals, drinks, and a little jewelry for the wife. That was 2007. The flights we're $1,100 person for coach, but it was a bigger seat, free drinks, meals, snacks, and TV's in the seat backs. 

[Firemans4Horn 18118]

South Africa had a fucked up rule around World Cup time that you needed a completely blank passport page to be allowed into the country. My dad travels a lot and ended up getting stuck in Kenya an extra day (and missed our flight) because he had to go to the US Embassy to get more pages added. Not sure if that is still the rule but just something to be aware of before traveling there. 

[52-80 19214]

Also, embassy's no longer provide extension pages.  New passport or bust

[conVINCEd 21469]

47 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yep probably not much of a down grade at all.  We pretty much did that trip in reverse. Flew into Jberg then to michaels bay, then Zulu Nyala (sort of a Marriot of safaris) for a week. We got our lodge package in an auction for under $1,000 for 2, and added the kids for anther $1,000.

Did St Lucia on the Indian ocean coast for the hippos, crocs, and horse back riding, and schloowschloowi (I'm spelling it phonetically cause the actual park name was so damn long. Where we saw from above, on a 100' bluff, literally a hundred or so elephants converging from everywhere into a river basin.  Even our guide was a little blown away by the number of elephants we were witnessing in that park.  They just kept coming out of the woods into the river from all directions.

Then flew to Cape Town, and did Hermanus, Cape of Good Hope, Table top mountain, the penguins, whale watching, seal island, no shark cages because the seas were to rough.  That drive up the Indian ocean side of the country is breathtaking.

Then drove to Stellenbosch, and Franschook, and did the wine region for 3 days. Back to Cape Town, and the the grueling 19 hour flight back to Dulles.  

We had a van, driver, and a guide for the whole Cape Town, Stellenbosch part of the trip.  The Vic falls thing is something I wish we'd had time to squeeze in.  $35K for all four of us: trip, airfare, gratuities, meals, drinks, and a little jewelry for the wife. That was 2007. The flights we're $1,100 person for coach, but it was a bigger seat, free drinks, meals, snacks, and TV's in the seat backs. 

We also regretted not going to Vic Falls.  Just didn’t have enough time.  I never added up the total spend, but it was significantly less than you spent per person.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

19 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

We also regretted not going to Vic Falls.  Just didn’t have enough time.  I never added up the total spend, but it was significantly less than you spent per person.

private driver, tour guide and van was a good bit of change, but it made for door to door service at every location we visited, and never having to do anything but take in all the sites.  Was really nice having a driver in the wine region for all the tours.  

[conVINCEd 21469]

Uber is now in the wine regions.  2nd guy who picked us up offered to do the rest of the day for around $50.  Used him the next day as well. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

26 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Uber is now in the wine regions.  2nd guy who picked us up offered to do the rest of the day for around $50.  Used him the next day as well. 

Remember our guide telling us about the bot system (or something similar).  Wine producers would pay their mostly if not all black employees in wine instead of Rand.  You can imagine the domestic abuse, alcoholism, and general destruction of black families with that little PayPal service.  

[strangulation! 1716]

or the fornicating.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

6 minutes ago, strangulation! said:

or the fornicating.

Well, that stands to reason.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

On 10/23/2019 at 4:15 PM, next2naus said:

did a week in Kruger back in 1999, fuckign amazing. I'm sure its all built up and fabulous (crowded) now. It was crazy then, open back trucks. fucking great. I recommend it

 

people who kill these animals have tiny dicks. no if's, and's or but's. 

I have zero desire to shoot any animal in Africa.  But I’m glad others do.  Because the economic incentive from hunting is largely what keeps those animals from being wiped out by poachers and locals.  

[bobcat1995 71]

This is a timely thread.  i have begun the process of planning a trip to S. Africa.  We will be in country for 7 days not counting arrival and departure days.  The current plan is to spend half the time in and around Krueger and the other half in and around Cape Town.  This is my daughters graduation trip and she wants to see the big 5.  We have also talked about doing a shark dive while in Cape Town.  A trip to the wine country is a must just so the wife has one day for her.  I am open to any tips or further suggestions.  We are flying AA because I have a little over $6000 in airline vouchers to use for the 4 of us travel.  It only took one cancelled flight to Germany to get those vouchers.  Traveling June 2020.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

I have zero desire to shoot any animal in Africa.  But I’m glad others do.  Because the economic incentive from hunting is largely what keeps those animals from being wiped out by poachers and locals.  

Not as much any more.  Non hunting tourists are becoming the lions share of dollars being spent, and that will Continue to grow as more people push back against trophy hunting.  I believed that trophy hunting  was the was to go, but not anymore, especially with the canned hunt shit that's going on all over Africa.

[Dbeasy 15077]

Question about the safaris. We have a family member that needs to keep medication cool during the trip (insulin). Is that possible, or will the temperature in the accommodations get warm/hot?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

41 minutes ago, bobcat1995 said:

This is a timely thread.  i have begun the process of planning a trip to S. Africa.  We will be in country for 7 days not counting arrival and departure days.  The current plan is to spend half the time in and around Krueger and the other half in and around Cape Town.  This is my daughters graduation trip and she wants to see the big 5.  We have also talked about doing a shark dive while in Cape Town.  A trip to the wine country is a must just so the wife has one day for her.  I am open to any tips or further suggestions.  We are flying AA because I have a little over $6000 in airline vouchers to use for the 4 of us travel.  It only took one cancelled flight to Germany to get those vouchers.  Traveling June 2020.

You're doing the exact trip we did in 2007 with our 2 kids.  6 days on a safari then Cape Town, Table mountain, cape of good hope, whale watching, shark diving (canceled because of rough seas), penguin watching, seal island, Stellenbosch for 4 days .

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Onboard 2.0

[Thetexashammer 1062]

20 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Not as much any more.  Non hunting tourists are becoming the lions share of dollars being spent, and that will Continue to grow as more people push back against trophy hunting.  I believed that trophy hunting  was the was to go, but not anymore, especially with the canned hunt shit that's going on all over Africa.

There aren't many people who will fail to be impressed by the exotic mount you have in your game room and your stories about Africa. Even if it's a canned hunt, it's still one of the premier status symbols.