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Trump and Obama

Ted Lange

By Ted Lange
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

No, I don't have that view at all.  I invite you to show me where I've said that.  I also invite you to stop mischaracterizing me, because it doesn't advance the discussion.

Here is a direct quote from you:

--------------------
For fuck's sake, it's the role of the adults in the room to -- every once in awhile -- remind the youth that they didn't invent everything, that their perspective is simplistically idealistic, that compromise and inclusion can be good things, that they aren't the be all and end all.'
----------------------

There you go.

I'll go ahead and break this apart piece by piece...

remind the youth that they didn't invent everything

I don't really know what this means. What is it that the young people are saying they invented? Incoherent.

that their perspective is simplistically idealistic

This one is pretty obviously dismissive, mocking, scolding, and at the end of all those tone concerns, completely fucking stupid in its logical content. The idea that college kids have unrealistic ideas is based in absolutely nothing but a fear of change (i.e., conservatism). The college campuses are often the vanguard and what is considered wildly unrealistic today is the norm 20 years from now. See, for example, the buildup to Afghanistan and Iraq post-9/11. Or the ramp up in the gay rights push pre-Lawrence. College kids decried as idiotic utopian children... and... they were right.

I have no evidence that 60-year-olds have a fundamentally better perspective on policy than 20-year-olds.

that compromise and inclusion can be good things

The idea that college students oppose INCLUSION more than older people is laughable on its face. I don't know how you can stand by that, and my guess is that you won't try and will ignore it like you've ignored so much else. And I would be fascinated to know the reasoning behind the notion that the older voters are more open to compromise than the younger voters, but like the other I assume this won't be forthcoming.

that they aren't the be all and end all

Like so much else you've posted in this thread, this doesn't seem to actually mean anything. Just incoherent bitterness towards the young.

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

You are actively dividing the left, and in my estimation, there is a good chance you are doing so intentionally.

Part 1 - What does it look like to "actively divide the left"? What is it that happens? Do I post on this website and left-leaning posters then become Nazis? They become Trump voters? Can you think of examples? I suspect not, and I suspect you'll just say something else very vague and meaningless.

Part 2 - DISINFORMATSKAYA KOMPROMAT lol

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 47205

Posted
Posted

Everything I said about youth is true to a significant degree.  You'll notice I didn't even say those characteristics are negatives.  They aren't.  They're features.  They're also somewhat at odds with the way the world works. 

You are really, really bad at this, and it's boring as hell, so if it helps you to think of me as a conservative old fart, be my guest.

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 47205

Posted
Posted
Just now, bad_teammate said:

Cool, which parts of what you said is untrue?

None.  Which part of "everything" is problematic for you?  Let's clarify:  I think a majority of youth struggle with the things I outlined.  It's nothing new.  Same song, different generation.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

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Posted

I was looking at the "significant degree" part of it which would seem to indicate that there was some flex about the overall level of truthfulness. Less than 100%, if you will. I was just wondering which part of your evaluation you deemed necessary to qualify.

Regarding the youthful struggle...

- Do you think older people are more ideologically flexible? Is your average 60-year-old more moldable and changeable than your average 20-year-old? Which of the two is more likely to maintain ideological rigidity in the next 10 years, say?

- Do older voters think in more complex ways about policy? Are older voters not ruled by presuppositions and decades-ingrained allegiances?

- Do you think older voters are more tolerant of different types of people than younger voters? Are older generations more known for inclusive attitudes than younger generations?

- Are older voters more likely to want to negotiate with other people than younger ones?

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

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Posted

Is the political center and political right some kind of harmonious land where people don't disagree and have red lines?

"Perfection getting in the way of progress" is an idea that the Obama admin should have taught us is BS. It is telling the people that better things are impossible and that the only things they can expect are new coats of lipstick on the pig that turns them off. Obama promised huge changes in 2008 and we turned out. Hillary told us that single payer and other "radical" changes would never, ever happen and she lost.

Surely, at some point, the obvious failure of pre-negotiation as a political strategy is going to be recognized, right?

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 47205

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Regarding the youthful struggle...

- Do you think older people are more ideologically flexible? Is your average 60-year-old more moldable and changeable than your average 20-year-old? Which of the two is more likely to maintain ideological rigidity in the next 10 years, say?

- Do older voters think in more complex ways about policy? Are older voters not ruled by presuppositions and decades-ingrained allegiances?

- Do you think older voters are more tolerant of different types of people than younger voters? Are older generations more known for inclusive attitudes than younger generations?

- Are older voters more likely to want to negotiate with other people than younger ones?

I'm not disparaging America's youth.  In fact, if you'll go back and search my posting history, I have been on the front line in lauding their relative lack of bigotry, their open-mindedness, and their passion.  That doesn't mean they dissect issues with a fine scalpel.

Your inability to recognize your own blinders is extraordinary.  You are far more rigid than almost every poster in the CR.  It is my experience that a great deal of Gen X through middle aged voters are absolutely, without a doubt quite willing to dig in and assess their positions, especially in light of new information.  I'm sure you disagree.  Regardless, this is a monumentally tedious sidetrack from what was a simple 2 minute monologue by President Obama, and one that was wholly on point for the vast majority of people who don't have a stick up their ass or a Russian flag in their closet.  You choose which one you are.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

Posted
Posted



lauding their relative lack of bigotry, their open-mindedness, and their passion.


Cool, so you acknowledge that some of your attacks on college-aged voters are unfounded. Very good.

That doesn't mean they dissect issues with a fine scalpel.


Is an average 60-year-old more researched in his political positions than an average college student?

Seems patently ridiculous.
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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 47205

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:


 

 


Cool, so you acknowledge that some of your attacks on college-aged voters are unfounded. Very good.



Is an average 60-year-old more researched in his political positions than an average college student?

Seems patently ridiculous.

 

troll not going away

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

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Posted

I mean, you could actually engage in the conversation about Obama's topic, which is younger voters and their supposed obsession with TV and social media and the need of the older voters to guide and shepherd these young, naive kids.

- Do you think older people are more ideologically flexible? Is your average 60-year-old more moldable and changeable than your average 20-year-old? Which of the two is more likely to maintain ideological rigidity in the next 10 years, say?

- Do older voters think in more complex ways about policy? Are older voters not ruled by presuppositions and decades-ingrained allegiances?

- Do you think older voters are more tolerant of different types of people than younger voters? Are older generations more known for inclusive attitudes than younger generations?

- Are older voters more likely to want to negotiate with other people than younger ones?

- Is an average 60-year-old more researched in his political positions than an average college student?

None of these questions is trollish in any way. They are valid questions. The problem you face, I think, is that the answers to them are inconvenient to the narrative that you (and Obama) want to present with regard to the youth vote. But on your side is me being universally loathed here, so you've got that going for you, which is nice.

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Coelenterate Fuccboi

Coelenterate Fuccboi 13435

Posted
Posted

The answer to these questions is mostly personality driven. I was fairly set in my ways as a youth but have become much more open-minded about many social issues as I’ve matured. Some people remain stubborn their entire lives or develop it as they get older. It seems one of the most difficult things for humans to do is admit we were wrong or even internally accept that we could have been.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

Posted
Posted (edited)

The only somewhat coherent claim that jimmyjazz/Obama make about college kids is that they are intolerant of diversity and inflexible in their ideas.

And every individual is different, yes, so think about what happens in the aggregate. In general, is a 20-year-old more likely to change his political/religious values ideas by 30 or is a 60-year-old more likely to change his political/religious values by 70?

And it might all be true*. The college kids might actually be naive bigots who need the shepherding guidance of more realistic and tolerant adults. And even if that were true, if you're left/progressive, you need those naive bigoted snowflake trigger warning safe spacers to come out and vote. If you actually care about taking back the levers of power, you need voters and they are a very rich source for votes in 2020.

Is being a windsurfing-with-billionaires Boomer mocking them onstage at your funded-by-billionaires summit for your foundation, both of which you named after yourself and whose logos are your campaign logo, an effective way to motivate that voting base?

A 19-year-old college student was 9 when Obama was inaugurated. I was standing on the mall with hundreds of thousands of people full of pride and hope, that college kid was watching Spongebob. By 16, Obama was on his way out after an extremely lame final 4 years in office and the news was all Hillary vs. GOP then Hillary vs. Trump. No doubt Obama is broadly popular among younger people compared to Bush or Trump, but how resonant and motivating are "get off the Twitter machine and go to the VOTING machine you self-righteous child" yuck-yucks going to be?

Or are those condescending stand-up routines actually about something else? Are they actuallyjust older people doing what they ALWAYS do, which is resent younger people for calling them out on their failings and hypocrisies?

* - It's not

Edited by bad_teammate
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

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Posted

It's kind of pointless to even keep providing evidence of the duplicity of this punch-left line of attack about how young/left are inflexible fools and all they will ever do is lose and not Get Things Done. It's so obviously dishonest that anyone who still denies it is being willfully obtuse, but...

Obama was at his most popular and loved when he was  "purity" candidate coming from his opponent's left. He beat John McCain by over 7% in popular voting. He came into office in the 60s for approval rating.

The "purity" Obama is the one we liked so much we voted in a supermajority Congress with him.

But now he's the establishment, so the way to maintain power is different from the way he used to gain power. It's absurd that you guys can't see what is so obvious.

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Nivek

Nivek 17415

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Posted
He's looking out at the political landscape and the problem he sees is young people on college campuses.
A completely useless observation that helps no one and the only purpose of it is to try and stop people from criticizing his legacy.

Another stupid post. He is talking about a topic appropriate to the audience, pointing out an issue amongst them in trying to motivate them to actually achieve more, whine less, and participate in less character assassination and understand that no person is flawless and the idea that we must hold people to an unrealistic standard is only going to hurt those on the political left whom already shitcan good people/politicians for not achieving sainthood by 30.


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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Another stupid post. He is talking about a topic appropriate to the audience, pointing out an issue amongst them in trying to motivate them to actually achieve more, whine less, and participate in less character assassination and understand that no person is flawless and the idea that we must hold people to an unrealistic standard is only going to hurt those on the political left whom already shitcan good people/politicians for not achieving sainthood by 30.

This entire argument is nothing but whining, so I am enjoying the irony.

Do centrists actually "achieve more"? [citation needed]

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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

Posted
Posted

For folks that didn’t listen to what Obama actually said or may have forgotten considering all the bluster. Below are Obama’s points: 

”work with those that have flaws”

”find common ground”

”acknowledge the world is messy”

”acknowledge political opponents are actual people”

”casting stones, judgements on social media IS NOT ENOUGH”

”bad teammate acting as a victim doesn’t make him one”

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 47205

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Posted
3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

The only somewhat coherent claim that jimmyjazz/Obama make about college kids is that they are intolerant of diversity and inflexible in their ideas.

You're high, right?  I mean, lit to the gills, wakey-bakey high as a kite, right?

I never made that claim.  I've stated the opposite, and you continue to ignore me.   This further illuminates your motives, which clearly have nothing to do with debating in an honest manner.  Either play fair or fuck off.

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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Me: "OK, guys, you need to stop beating your wives."

You: "We don't beat our wives, what are you saying?"

Me: "Just that beating wives is wrong, it's pretty crazy that you disagree with that. Wow. So divisive."

It is so unfair. Obama is mean. You are a real victim. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I never made that claim.

"For fuck's sake, it's the role of the adults in the room to -- every once in awhile -- remind the youth that they didn't invent everything, that their perspective is simplistically idealistic, that compromise and inclusion can be good things, that they aren't the be all and end all."

Then, when pressed...

"Everything I said about youth is true to a significant degree."

And you still can't engage substantively (just as GW below cannot, either).

You know, jimmy, you can just admit you were wrong about young voters.

12 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

It is so unfair. Obama is mean. You are a real victim. 

Obama and the centrists love my people. White liberals with money in the suburbs? I'm God's chosen people for Obama and the centrists. I'm not their victim, I'm their target demographic.

I'm not the victim here. The victims here are the young voters being dismissed as naive bigots and the hundreds of thousands of kids losing healthcare because The Adults were smart enough to Compromise Pragmatically in order to Get Things Done.

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 47205

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"For fuck's sake, it's the role of the adults in the room to -- every once in awhile -- remind the youth that they didn't invent everything, that their perspective is simplistically idealistic, that compromise and inclusion can be good things, that they aren't the be all and end all."

Then, when pressed...

"Everything I said about youth is true to a significant degree."

And you still can't engage substantively (just as GW below cannot, either).

You know, jimmy, you can just admit you were wrong about young voters.

I wasn't wrong.  You can't read.  You also lie, a lot.  Fuck you. 

Here's a hint:  I don't misrepresent your perspective.  Nobody with a moral compass or a fucking spine would do such a thing.  You?  You're a spineless twat who is most likely paid by the right to spew your bullshit.  We're done.

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Mrs Whiggins

Mrs Whiggins 13050

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nivek said:


Another stupid post. He is talking about a topic appropriate to the audience, pointing out an issue amongst them in trying to motivate them to actually achieve more, whine less, and participate in less character assassination and understand that no person is flawless and the idea that we must hold people to an unrealistic standard is only going to hurt those on the political left whom already shitcan good people/politicians for not achieving sainthood by 30.

 

Yes. I don't care to lump all <30 year olds under an umbrella because that issue is something that is not unique to them. However, they are in a position and are poised to 'do' something about it. Young people 'pushing' can affect change that is much harder for moms and dads to do. It doesn't mean that moms and dads cannot, but much of our activism can be driven by single issues whereas the younger one is, IMO, the better able to have that 'structural change' that some of the candidates such as Sanders and Warren talk about (to different degrees).

I have had my oldest get in the car and vent for twenty minutes about an injustice. When finished, my response is usually along the lines of: 'did you just need to vent for awhile?' followed by 'and what are you going to do?' I am sure it feels good (to my child) to assassinate someones character or bemoan the unfairness of certain situations, but other than an ego stroke, or  feeling superior,  at some point one needs to address the problem and move forward.

People are complicated, but getting some compromise and getting that window moved back some to the left would be a positive in my book. If he can get the young people out marching and voting perhaps that will happen. Sanders is doing it, he has my youngest excited about politics and watching the news and that child is the most pessimistic fatalistic personality in the entire family.

Edit to add-I don't view compromise as a problem and that is probably where bt and I are at odds.

Edited by Mrs Whiggins
Clarification
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

Posted
Posted
Just now, jimmyjazz said:

I wasn't wrong.  You can't read.  You also lie, a lot.  Fuck you. 

I can read real good. I'm not lying. I'm quoting your own words back at you.

Quote

I don't misrepresent your perspective.  Nobody with a moral compass or a fucking spine would do such a thing.  You?  You're a spineless twat who is most likely paid by the right to spew your bullshit.  We're done.

lol

- Young voters do not think they "invented everything" (whatever this means)
- Young voters are not "simplistically idealistic" (centrism is just as simplistically idealistic as leftism or any other -ism)
- Young voters are not against compromise (whatever this means)
- Young voters are not against inclusion (this one is genuinely funny)
- Young voters do not think they are "the end all be all" (whatever this means)

You're wrong about basically all of this.

If young voters participated at the same level as older voters our government would be better. That's because they have better politics and policy ideas than their grandparents. This is virtually always true across time.

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F250

F250 29201

Posted
Posted
On 10/30/2019 at 11:55 AM, GW Hayduke said:

bad_teammate is consistent with division of the left as the best path forward. No surprise there. Dividing the left is a goal of right-wing politics. He carries that pail like a good trumpkin.

Hugo should know better.  Wtf dude.

Bad_teammate is a political ideologue and has always been upfront with what he advocates and why he does so. The vast majority of his posts are compatible with his political views.  Most of the kerfuffles that arise here are due to the fact that he supports a movement that challenges the political establishment that many here faithfully support.

Hugo is a plastic bag blowing in the wind when it comes to political positions, shit changes on a quarterly basis with him so who knows why he says what he says.

 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

Posted
Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, F250 said:

Hugo is a plastic bag blowing in the wind when it comes to political positions, shit changes on a quarterly basis with him so who knows why he says what he says.

I will grant you that I don’t have a fixed ideology I remain dogmatic to.  Political ideologies are a lot like religions, good parts in most of them but none of them are going to solve everyone’s problems.

Different societal problems of the day call for different approaches and pigeonholing oneself to fit a strict ideological framework limits one’s ability to evaluate options and determine the most equitable solution. 

The world changes, society changes, it seems foolish that one’s ideas on governing must remain the same over time.  

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13524

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

 

Edit to add-I don't view compromise as a problem and that is probably where bt and I are at odds

 

I'm fine with compromise.

Compromise is a tactic (means of getting something), not a strategy (larger vision). I have a vision for what I want (universal welfare programs, drastically reduced wealth inequality, jobs guarantees, demolishing most/all prisons, drastic cuts to military and police, public ownership of all vital utilities and energy production). I am happy to compromise on the road there.

Compromise is just one of the many tactics in the overall strategy of trying to fix the big problems and build the best future. For me, at least.

So why not "compromise" in the primary and throw my support behind some half-measures centrist like Pete? Because there is not legislation being passed in the primary so compromise doesn't actually mean anything. The entire point of a primary is the purity test. This is where we figure out what we're going to fight for and who is going to lead the charge. Let each candidate put out their best vision for American and then get everyone to vote for who they think has the best vision for America.

Once that person wins and goes to Congress vs the GOP, then we talk about compromise. We don't compromise our goal before we even get to the negotiating table. That's absurd.

Like Bernie, I would've voted for the ACA compromise. Then, like Bernie, I would have continued agitating for what I actually want (completely free-to-use healthcare for everyone in the country (and, eventually, everyone in the world)).

For some people, compromise IS the end goal/strategy. For some people, the idea of just finding the middle between the "extremes" on "both sides" is the whole point. It doesn't matter as much what the policies are or what they mean or how they impact people or the world, it's just a desire for order and calmness and cohesiveness and a pleasant Thanksgiving without Uncle Mike and Aunt Carol yelling at each other about politics.

To those people, the idea of using compromise as a tactic is horrifying because that means we have to keep fighting for the future. They don't want to fight. The Pete Buttigieg message of, "We can get everything we want without a fight" resonates because they're largely comfortable and that's all they really want.

The fascists say kill all the Jews, the communists say don't kill any Jews, so let's just cut out the arguing and kill half of them. Grow up and compromise.

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Nivek

Nivek 17415

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

This entire argument is nothing but whining, so I am enjoying the irony.

Do centrists actually "achieve more"? [citation needed]

I simply gave my interpretation of what Obama stated and why in my view of the context.  My comments had nothing to do with centrists or their polar counterparts.  I do not believe you understand what whining is. 

Edited by Nivek
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