2020 astros offseason

[Beau Vine 54451]

11 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

 

I'm not sure the cheating was as wide spread on the team. Outside of Gattis and Beltran, where the evidence supports it. There is no way Altuve, Springer, and Bregman used it.

Didn't that BP column that analyzed the audio answer this issue?

 

[Huckleberry 33101]

One other thing the Astros should do this year is have a guy hit the trash can real hard right before the pitch in obvious offspeed pitch situations. Scouting report says the pitcher throws an offspeed pitch on 0-2 against right-handed batters with nobody on at least 80-90% of the time? Two bangs.

[tx 3 putt 77469]

If memory serves me right, 2017 Altuve was a monster on the road 

[Murfdogg21 4430]

5 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

One other thing the Astros should do this year is have a guy hit the trash can real hard right before the pitch in obvious offspeed pitch situations. Scouting report says the pitcher throws an offspeed pitch on 0-2 against right-handed batters with nobody on at least 80-90% of the time? Two bangs.

They won’t be cute, but I’d appreciate random trashcan banging from in the dugout and the stands from now on. Like Minute Maid’s own version of the cowbell. 

[mbtex 683]

The fans can bring trashcan lids like those stupid drums the A's use. Maybe they should investigate that. Maybe they are signalling with the drums.😃

[tx 3 putt 77469]

Astros need a drum corp 

[henrygandorf 29195]

i want a bobblehead of bregman banging a trashcan. 

2020 astros : 

[Sbbruin 21895]

2 hours ago, Cornfusion said:

You earn it, you wear it.

 

In all seriousness, if the tables were turned and the Dodgers had won a 7 game series and were caught doing this shit, what would Astros fans be saying?  It's fucking bullshit, and you all fucking know it.  They flat out cheated, and there's no 2 ways about it.  The owner knows it too.

 

There is a bigger asterisk on this championship than any other in any sport I can think of.

[henrygandorf 29195]

17 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

 

In all seriousness, if the tables were turned and the Dodgers had won a 7 game series and were caught doing this shit, what would Astros fans be saying?  It's fucking bullshit, and you all fucking know it.  They flat out cheated, and there's no 2 ways about it.  The owner knows it too.

 

There is a bigger asterisk on this championship than any other in any sport I can think of.

the 1919 reds would like a word...

[Huckleberry 33101]

19 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

 

In all seriousness, if the tables were turned and the Dodgers had won a 7 game series and were caught doing this shit, what would Astros fans be saying?  It's fucking bullshit, and you all fucking know it.  They flat out cheated, and there's no 2 ways about it.  The owner knows it too.

 

There is a bigger asterisk on this championship than any other in any sport I can think of.

lulz sample size

Why don't you check the Astros home/road splits for the entire season. Also, doofus, what were the Dodgers' numbers at home versus the road in that World Series? Both teams hit better in Houston.

[Chuckie Finster 22748]

20 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

 

In all seriousness, if the tables were turned and the Dodgers had won a 7 game series and were caught doing this shit, what would Astros fans be saying?  It's fucking bullshit, and you all fucking know it.  They flat out cheated, and there's no 2 ways about it.  The owner knows it too.

 

There is a bigger asterisk on this championship than any other in any sport I can think of.

Sorry we broke Kenley

[Ghost of LL 15541]

3 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Why don't you check the Astros home/road splits for the entire season..

For how much of the entire season were the Astros using this scheme?

But yeah--I'd like to compare the splits with other team (not just the Dodgers in the WS due to the small sample size).  That would do a better job at giving us a control group to see how much effect the scheme really had.

[Sbbruin 21895]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

lulz sample size

Why don't you check the Astros home/road splits for the entire season. Also, doofus, what were the Dodgers' numbers at home versus the road in that World Series? Both teams hit better in Houston.

So are you saying their cheating had no bearing on the outcome of the series?  Nothing to see here, in other words?  OK then.  

[DaysOff 7975]

None. So we're done here.

If you think anyone could hear a banging trash can in that enclosed stadium during a WS game you need hearing aids more than me probably.

[Huckleberry 33101]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

For how much of the entire season were the Astros using this scheme?

But yeah--I'd like to compare the splits with other team (not just the Dodgers in the WS due to the small sample size).  That would do a better job at giving us a control group to see how much effect the scheme really had.

Guy didn't also post opponents' splits so can't help there.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Huckleberry

[David Dennison 18949]

10 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

So are you saying their cheating had no bearing on the outcome of the series?  Nothing to see here, in other words?  OK then.  

Even if it did, the big story here is that we got away with it. We still have hardware and records.

 

36 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

 

In all seriousness, if the tables were turned and the Dodgers had won a 7 game series and were caught doing this shit, what would Astros fans be saying?  It's fucking bullshit, and you all fucking know it.  They flat out cheated, and there's no 2 ways about it.  The owner knows it too.

 

There is a bigger asterisk on this championship than any other in any sport I can think of.

The ultimate lesson in all of this is: cheating works.

We got away with it.

[Beau Vine 54451]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Even if it did, the big story here is that we got away with it. We still have hardware and records.

 

The ultimate lesson in all of this is: cheating works.

We got away with it.

Avatar checks out.

[Cornfusion 250]

Quote

So are you saying their cheating had no bearing on the outcome of the series?  Nothing to see here, in other words?  OK then.

I guess what the apologists are saying is that they cheated just for the sake of cheating, not because they thought it would give them any sort of an advantage.  Kind of like it's okay for rich people to steal because they really don't need the money in the first place.

[David Dennison 18949]

3 minutes ago, Cornfusion said:

I guess what the apologists are saying is that they cheated just for the sake of cheating, not because they thought it would give them any sort of an advantage.  Kind of like it's okay for rich people to steal because they really don't need the money in the first place.

You're equating criminal laws with the rules of baseball?

Get a grip.

[Hank Chinaski 6321]

3 minutes ago, Cornfusion said:

I guess what the apologists are saying is that they cheated just for the sake of cheating, not because they thought it would give them any sort of an advantage.  Kind of like it's okay for rich people to steal because they really don't need the money in the first place.

I'm certain they thought it would help. How much it really helped is, and always will be, unclear. Some of the data doesn't really support the idea that any of it made much difference. 

Does that mean they shouldn't be punished? Of course not. Breaking the rule is breaking the rule, regardless of how much (or little) it helped them. 

But the notion that all these players are "tainted" now, and that they aren't actually as good as they seemed, is an obvious exaggeration and unsupported by evidence. That won't stop people from piling on because the narrative pleases them. That's fine I guess. 

[Seasick Sailor 3747]

 

34 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

So are you saying their cheating had no bearing on the outcome of the series?  Nothing to see here, in other words?  OK then.  

 

Well, the Astros didn't make Roberts mismanage his bullpen. They didn't make Bellinger swing and miss at damn near every breaking ball. They didn't make Roberts start Yu over Kershaw in Game 7. (How may runs did the Astros score after the second again?) The Astros didn't make Bellinger misplay a ground ball in the first inning of Game 7. The Astros also didn't make Forsyth throw to first instead of home in the second. (I mean LMJ got an RBI in Game 7 of the World Series and has what 10 PAs lifetime.) Oh, and the Dodgers left what 10 or 11 guys on base in Game 7. Are you saying this had no bearing on the outcome of the series? OK then. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Seasick Sailor

[Sbbruin 21895]

Just now, Seasick Sailor said:

 

 

Well, the Astros didn't make Roberts mismanage his bullpen. They didn't make Bellinger swing and miss at damn near every breaking ball. They didn't make Roberts start Yu over Kershaw in Game 7. (How may runs did the Astros score after the second again?) The Astros didn't make Bellinger misplay a ground ball in the first inning of Game 7. The Astros also didn't make Forsyth throw to first instead of home in the second. Oh, and the Dodgers left what 10 or 11 guys on base in Game 7. Are you saying this had no bearing on the outcome of the series? OK then. 

You're fucking retarded.  The series went 7 games.  If the Astros were doing this during the series to give themselves an advantage, then that could have swung the series.  Despite all you point out, it went 7 games.

Again, if you think it's no big deal and wouldn't have bothered you if the Dodgers had done it, bully for you.  I think it is a major black mark on the Astros organization.  And any non-Astros fan would agree.

[henrygandorf 29195]

6 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

then that could have swung the series.

absolutely it could've.

but there's a large gap between "could've swung the series" and "biggest asterisk in the history of north american sports championships".

i think the hyperbole is was set people off.  and as houston fans, we've been on the wrong side of plenty of bad "breaks" (renfro, cough), so we're not exactly the types to show significant remorse for this.  bills game out front should've toldya.

[David Dennison 18949]

9 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

You're fucking retarded.  The series went 7 games.  If the Astros were doing this during the series to give themselves an advantage, then that could have swung the series.  Despite all you point out, it went 7 games.

Again, if you think it's no big deal and wouldn't have bothered you if the Dodgers had done it, bully for you.  I think it is a major black mark on the Astros organization.  And any non-Astros fan would agree.

Who got burned?

Dodgers got burned.

[Chuckie Finster 22748]

26 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

You're fucking retarded.  The series went 7 games.  If the Astros were doing this during the series to give themselves an advantage, then that could have swung the series.  Despite all you point out, it went 7 games.

Again, if you think it's no big deal and wouldn't have bothered you if the Dodgers had done it, bully for you.  I think it is a major black mark on the Astros organization.  And any non-Astros fan would agree.

Dude, seriously what the fuck are you trying to get here?  You're in the Astros offseason thread, which is obviously going to be populated by biased Astros fans.  If you want a serious discussion, there's literally infinity other places on the internet where you can have that.  It sure seems like you just want to get into an internet fight.

[Murfdogg21 4430]

I hope some Mike Fiers types come out and rat on the Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers, Cardinals, and other MLB darlings so MLB can hand out equivalent punishments and the holier than thou Astro hating fans can eat their crow. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

22 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

So are you saying their cheating had no bearing on the outcome of the series?  Nothing to see here, in other words?  OK then.  

 

52 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

 

In all seriousness, if the tables were turned and the Dodgers had won a 7 game series and were caught doing this shit, what would Astros fans be saying?  It's fucking bullshit, and you all fucking know it.  They flat out cheated, and there's no 2 ways about it.  The owner knows it too.

 

There is a bigger asterisk on this championship than any other in any sport I can think of.

This is cherry picked.  The Astros had 6 HRs by the time they finished games 1 and 2 with the Red Sox.  And while in games 6 and 7 against the Yankees, the Astros scored well, games 1 and 2 were 2-1 pitching duels.  And in games 6 and 7, the Yankees mismanaged their pitchers in the 4th and 5th innings and couldn't hit for shit anyway.

Nearly all of the Astros home offense in the Dodger series also occurred in game 5 where neither side was pitching worth a shit.  The Astros scored 5 and 2 in the other 2 WS home games.  That 5 was put up against Yu Darvish alone which gets to the reason you lost the series below.

27 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

So are you saying their cheating had no bearing on the outcome of the series?  Nothing to see here, in other words?  OK then.  

None at all.  Let's dig deeper.  First, you lost 2 home games.  Nobody has ever even made a claim that the Astros did this on the road, but you put yourself in a hole that required you to win 2 out of 3 in Houston by losing 2 "fair" games in your home stadium.

Then let's look at the 3 Astros home games.  Game 3, the Astros score 4 on Darvish and then manage only 1 run for the rest of the game.  Was there simply no trashcan banging after Darvish, or did the whole world know that Darvish was tipping his pitches?  Game 4, the Astros only 2 hits of the night were 2 solo HRs.  I guess they weren't banging the can loud enough against Wood or any other Dodgers pitchers that night.  Game 5, here's the stat outlier that skews every other game.  You should probably check how this game affects the Dodger stat splits too.  It was 13-12.  Hardly a pitching duel with trashcan banging.  Still, Kershaw was pitching well through 3 and got shaky in the 4th.  I guess the trashcans came out then.  Or you know, maybe Kershaw was losing control because all 3 of the walks he issued for the night were in the 4th and 5th.   Your pitching was a dumpster fire after that, but the Astros was too.  Yours was a bigger dumpster fire because Roberts mismanaged it and had Jansen out there longer than he wanted.

The real kicker and the primary reason you lost was another boneheaded decision that Roberts made in Game 7.  After Darvish's game 3 shittiness, every pundit in the land had already been going over the fact that he was tipping pitches and that the Astros observed and used that.  Still, Roberts decided to trot out Darvish in Game 7, the Astros quickly put 5 on him and did nothing against any other pitcher for the night.  A single individual cost you 2 WS games.  To be fair though, you were probably going to need to score more than 1 in game 7 even if Darvish doesn't pitch.  However, you don't need game 7 at all if you don't pitch Darvish in game 3.

 

[RGBIII 22840]

FWIW, I got to talk to my guy today. He said the trade was held up with the stuff on Castillo in the DR as well as the Astros investigation. Now that Luhnow is gone he is unsure if those trades are completely dead or can be revived still, will mainly be based on who the new GM is.
 

He thinks Espada will be the manager...unless they can convince Bochy to come out of retirement (it’s possible). He thinks that Putila will be named interim GM but not sure how long that will last. It’s going to be hard to completely change course for 2020 as a GM now that it’s so late in the game. He may get 2020 as an audition. He also thinks that the new GM will still complete the Springer extension (may be handled by Crane himself), could also look to extend Correa. Keeping in house talent will be paramount with the farm taking a hit. He’s pretty in the dark right now, like most of us so this could be all guess work but I’ll pass along anything else I hear

[Guadaloopy 11014]

There is no way that Correa is an Astro beyond ‘21.  

[HtownHorn 14786]

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

So are you saying their cheating had no bearing on the outcome of the series?  Nothing to see here, in other words?  OK then.  

You fuckers were cheating too.

[David Dennison 18949]

2 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

You fuckers were cheating too.

And if you want to know why the Astros got off with a slap on the wrist, this here is the reason why.

MLB wishes Mike Fiers had kept his mouth shut.

[RGBIII 22840]

25 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

There is no way that Correa is an Astro beyond ‘21.  

You’d be surprised. Grienke and Verlander contracts will come off the books by then so who knows

[Sbbruin 21895]

18 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

You fuckers were cheating too.

[Beau Vine 54451]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And if you want to know why the Astros got off with a slap on the wrist, this here is the reason why.

MLB wishes Mike Fiers had kept his mouth shut.

Well, duh.  No organization wants to deal with a scandal.  But if it wasn't Fiers, it would have been someone else.  Fahrquar talked, too.  

It's going to be interesting to see how MLB hands out penalties to the other teams rumored... BOS has a new GM. Do you go back and slap a show-cause kind of penalty on Dombroski?  The Rangers' manager is working for Pittsburgh.  Joe Girardi is now managing the Phillies.  

[Guadaloopy 11014]

8 minutes ago, RGBIII said:

You’d be surprised. Grienke and Verlander contracts will come off the books by then so who knows

Maybe.  But who pitches, then?  LMJ goes bye bye that year, too.   Gotta get arms somehow.  That’s nearly $60M off the books.  Correa would eat half at least.  That leaves $30M to replace three TOR arms.  So yeah... maybe.  

Edited January 14, 2020 by Guadaloopy

[Beau Vine 54451]

Enjoy: 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Beau Vine

[wild_turkey 3182]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

For how much of the entire season were the Astros using this scheme?

But yeah--I'd like to compare the splits with other team (not just the Dodgers in the WS due to the small sample size).  That would do a better job at giving us a control group to see how much effect the scheme really had.

Splits are somewhat interesting but in the end they don't really matter. Cheating is cheating regardless of how effective it turns out to be. A team can't use the defense of "We cheated but it didn't help as much as we wanted it to and we probably would've won even if we didn't cheat." That holds no water.

[Hank Chinaski 6321]

3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Enjoy: 

 

[Pimphand 5914]

Stephen A Smith is crying about cheating because Yu Darvish couldn't get an out at Dodger Stadium and he was at that game.....

You can't make them that dumb can you?

[Guadaloopy 11014]

6 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Enjoy: 

 

So how were the Nats cheating?

[Beau Vine 54451]

7 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

So how were the Nats cheating?

You should feel very bad for rooting for a team that deprived two Orange County trophy wives wearing pink LA hats the chance to high-five each other at the Range Rover dealership.

And whoever runs that twitter account is going to really lose his shit when the Boston investigation is released.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Beau Vine

[pepper brooks 580]

19 minutes ago, RGBIII said:

You’d be surprised. Grienke and Verlander contracts will come off the books by then so who knows

zero shot.  less than zero.  hes been open since day one he's GTFO as soon as he can.  Will be interesting to see if they trade him this year or next.  He's going to be traded.  if they're out of contention at the break this year and he's having a good year he will be moved.  Springer is unlikely to resign here either.  He wants to distance himself from this. 

[tx 3 putt 77469]

He needs to stay healthy and pick up his production, then start thinking about that next contract 

[justinjc7 153]

32 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Lol FFS dude.  Mike Fiers says the Astros were cheating, it gets investigated and turns out he was right.  But then when Logan Morrison says the same thing about your team, it's like, oh why should we believe him?  The only benefit you get right now is that those claims haven't been investigated.  Get a grip dude, I'm sorry you're piddly team that looks so good in the regular season continually chokes in the postseason and hasn't been able to close out a WS.  What about this past year, were the Nationals stealing signs too?  Which boogeyman hurt your team last year?  The Astros cheated and should be punished, no argument from me here. But to be punished like they were and for others to claim that the punishment is not enough is asinine, it's not a secret that many other teams in the league are doing the same thing so if you want to start taking away rings, it's going to be a lot more than just the Astros losing theirs. 

[RGBIII 22840]

37 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Enjoy: 

 

Sounds like an aggy

[henrygandorf 29195]

42 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

Splits are somewhat interesting but in the end they don't really matter. Cheating is cheating regardless of how effective it turns out to be. A team can't use the defense of "We cheated but it didn't help as much as we wanted it to and we probably would've won even if we didn't cheat." That holds no water.

the splits are in response to bruin’s argument about whether it affected the series outcome. nobody is saying what you’re putting in quotes. nobody is using that broad take-away. 

[henrygandorf 29195]

44 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Enjoy: 

 

[wild_turkey 3182]

4 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

the splits are in response to bruin’s argument about whether it affected the series outcome. nobody is saying what you’re putting in quotes. nobody is using that broad take-away. 

Yeah I get where that particular quote came from, but I've seen multiple posts that cite home vs. road performance, 2016/2017/2018 numbers, regular season vs. playoffs, etc. The implication is either that the cheating didn't occur on the road and the Astros still won on the road, or that the cheating didn't significantly alter performance in any situation.

While any of that may be true, none of it matters in this situation.

[henrygandorf 29195]

2 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

Yeah I get where that particular quote came from, but I've seen multiple posts that cite home vs. road performance, 2016/2017/2018 numbers, regular season vs. playoffs, etc. The implication is either that the cheating didn't occur on the road and the Astros still won on the road, or that the cheating didn't significantly alter performance in any situation.

i think it’s more of an observation that we mashed on the road where we apparently weren’t cheating. nobody here is using that as some excuse and calling the penalty “bullshit” or unwarranted. the worst most of us are saying is that other teams do it too, and we hope they also get punished. 

3 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

While any of that may be true, none of it matters in this situation.

agreed 100%. 

[UTexasFight 9540]

The big winner in all of this?

Somewhere Laz Diaz got one less death threat from Dodger fan today