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2020 astros offseason

elfenix

By elfenix
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Eastwood
Eastwood

Here's the thing that makes me absolutely livid about this... Cheating happens all the time in baseball. At all levels. All levels. The MLB itself cheats the game by juicing the ball. Players juiced t

Asithappens
Asithappens

It's not the end, I agree. The Astros are still sacks of giant shit, though.  Shame on them.

Asithappens
Asithappens

Very sad to see that the Astros are basically dipshit cheaters from the top down. Hey, at least the Black Sox are happy that someone else is wearing their crown of infamy.    

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clapclapclap

clapclapclap 9000

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Passan is usually very good, but this is some whiny ass bullshit.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28477741/why-anger-boiling-scenes-houston-astros-sign-stealing-punishments

Actually I thought it was a good article.  Other owners are going to vent, and it does indeed seem like the commish limited his focus to only what he pretty much had to pursue, perhaps giving Crane a bit of a pass. Manfred couldn't be blinded by the light of this oncoming trainwreck, he had to balance a lot of issues for the supposed overall good of the game.  Hammer the Astros too hard, like vacating the World Series, and wouldn't Crane have the opportunity to sue and get into discovery for nearly every other team, especially the big names that kept coming up in rumors of similar (though not to the same scale) cheating via electronics and other means (not just guys on base or in the dugout stealing signs.)  Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, etc.  (Rangers, too, though MLB probably still doesn't view them as quite the same cash cows needing protection.)   

Since Cora was an Astros in 2017 and the Red Sox had already been busted, he had no choice but to expand the investigation to them, and perhaps the Mets.  The article says he promised to look into the 8 teams the Astros named, but I bet it will end up being, "We couldn't find the level of proof needed to pursue further" or some slaps on the wrist for most:

Already this has stretched beyond his level of comfort. Initially, Manfred planned on limiting the investigation to the Astros. Now MLB is looking into the Red Sox -- and considering that their use of an Apple Watch to relay signs in August 2017 was the original sin of modern technological cheating, the penalties for any second offense could be severe. Though they're the only other team with a known investigation pending, Sports Illustrated reported that the Astros named eight other teams they believe cheated in 2017 and 2018 -- and Crane said "the commissioner assured me that every team and every allegation will be checked out."

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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16 minutes ago, C-Man said:

He was lights-out more productive on the road in 2017. His OPS was 1.081 in road games, .834 in games at Minute Maid.

It is kind of funny that all this cheating was happening at home and the Astros were clearly a better road team across the board in 2017.  They were also so much better on the road in 2018 that articles were being written about it by midseason.  Only in 2019 were they better at home than on the road, and we all know how that worked out in the WS.

It kind of leads one to believe that the sign stealing not only didn't help, but hindered the Astros at home.  Maybe there is value in being prepared for any pitch rather than expecting a single type of pitch and trying to knock it out of the park.  There are a lot of variables other than pitch type that can keep balls in the park.  Sign stealing would probably work better for singles hitters who would aim for the gaps instead of the fences.

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54253

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3 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

Though they're the only other team with a known investigation pending, Sports Illustrated reported that the Astros named eight other teams they believe cheated in 2017 and 2018 -- and Crane said "the commissioner assured me that every team and every allegation will be checked out."

This will really make the Astros popular.

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C-Man

C-Man 27230

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14 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

It is kind of funny that all this cheating was happening at home and the Astros were clearly a better road team across the board in 2017.  They were also so much better on the road in 2018 that articles were being written about it by midseason.  Only in 2019 were they better at home than on the road, and we all know how that worked out in the WS.

It kind of leads one to believe that the sign stealing not only didn't help, but hindered the Astros at home.  Maybe there is value in being prepared for any pitch rather than expecting a single type of pitch and trying to knock it out of the park.  There are a lot of variables other than pitch type that can keep balls in the park.  Sign stealing would probably work better for singles hitters who would aim for the gaps instead of the fences.

During the regular season, the Astros were 48-33 at home and 53-28 on the road. But in the postseason the Astros scored 51 runs and were 8-1 in home games. They scored 27 runs and were 3-6 in road games.

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Rockethorn1978

Rockethorn1978 6093

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The reason I don't give a flying fuck is because no matter how many analysis you have proving certain guys didn't cheat or if it was every single AB for every game all through the world series or not people still bitch and moan and whine and call the astros cheaters. So fuck em who cares. When the season starts a lot of this will be put to rest for the dumb asses that think Altuve and Bregman and Springer and all the rest of the lineup are "Only" good because of the aid of a trash can bang.

I hate to break it to people but even with the aid of knowing what's coming you still have to be able to hit the ball and against professional pitchers tossing 90-100mph it's still not that easy. The Astros have great hitters and I think when the season starts and we are still in 1st and win 100 games a lot of this bs will die down. 

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clapclapclap

clapclapclap 9000

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15 minutes ago, C-Man said:

During the regular season, the Astros were 48-33 at home and 53-28 on the road. But in the postseason the Astros scored 51 runs and were 8-1 in home games. They scored 27 runs and were 3-6 in road games.

Soooo, how many games during the regular season was Verlander a Tiger?  How many games did Correa, Spring, and other starters miss in the regular season?

In the WS the Dodgers averaged 3.33 runs per game at home, 7 per game in Houston.  So would you say it seems clear that the Dodgers were cheating at Minute Maid?

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C-Man

C-Man 27230

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

Soooo, how many games during the regular season was Verlander a Tiger?  How many games did Correa, Spring, and other starters miss in the regular season?

Not sure I follow. Just pointing out the Astros were a better team on the road during the regular season but completely flipped the script in the postseason.

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Zwylde

Zwylde 812

Posted
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2 hours ago, Murfdogg21 said:

I hope some Mike Fiers types come out and rat on the Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers, Cardinals, and other MLB darlings so MLB can hand out equivalent punishments and the holier than thou Astro hating fans can eat their crow. 

https://sodomojo.com/2020/01/13/former-mariners-first-baseman-logan-morrison-claims-astros-cheating-goes-back-2014/

 

 

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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3 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Another thing to keep in mind when looking at the Astros' home/road batting splits from 2017 is that Minute Maid Park was the #1 pitcher's park in the AL that year.

Well that presents a chicken or egg question.  50% of the at bats in MMP were Astros.  Were they hitting worse because pitchers were pitching better or were pitching stats better because the Astros were hitting worse?

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clapclapclap

clapclapclap 9000

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8 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Not sure I follow. Just pointing out the Astros were a better team on the road during the regular season but completely flipped the script in the postseason.

I'd say the 8-1 at home in the post-season probably has something to do with the Astros being at full strength, having better pitching depth, pitching matchups, and other factors.  Hard to factor in how much difference any cheating method would make.

But bottom line, we wouldn't be having these questions and speculations if the Astros hadn't resorted to next-level cheating.

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54253

Posted
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13 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

I hate to break it to people but even with the aid of knowing what's coming you still have to be able to hit the ball and against professional pitchers tossing 90-100mph it's still not that easy.

Whatever, it's a whole hell of a lot easier if you know what's coming.  

 

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C-Man

C-Man 27230

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8 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Well that presents a chicken or egg question.  50% of the at bats in MMP were Astros.  Were they hitting worse because pitchers were pitching better or were pitching stats better because the Astros were hitting worse?

Unless I'm mistaken, those park factors take into account the visiting teams too -- they pitched better at MMP than in every other ballpark in the AL.

7 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

I'd say the 8-1 at home in the post-season probably has something to do with the Astros being at full strength, having better pitching depth, pitching matchups, and other factors.  Hard to factor in how much difference any cheating method would make.

But bottom line, we wouldn't be having these questions and speculations if the Astros hadn't resorted to next-level cheating.

They scored nearly twice as many runs and won eight of nine home games during the postseason. Historically, home teams wins slightly more than road teams in the MLB playoffs (the 2019 WS notwithstanding) but it's not near the advantage it is in the NFL or NBA.

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irishtexan

irishtexan 11521

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

The reason I don't give a flying fuck is because no matter how many analysis you have proving certain guys didn't cheat or if it was every single AB for every game all through the world series or not people still bitch and moan and whine and call the astros cheaters. So fuck em who cares. When the season starts a lot of this will be put to rest for the dumb asses that think Altuve and Bregman and Springer and all the rest of the lineup are "Only" good because of the aid of a trash can bang.

I hate to break it to people but even with the aid of knowing what's coming you still have to be able to hit the ball and against professional pitchers tossing 90-100mph it's still not that easy. The Astros have great hitters and I think when the season starts and we are still in 1st and win 100 games a lot of this bs will die down. 

The Astros were a good baseball team and the players you cite are exceptionally talented baseball players. But they still cheated. They aren't good baseball players because they cheated. But being good doesn't mean that they didn't cheat. The Astros cheated their way to a title that will forever be viewed with an asterisk by pretty much every baseball fan not born in Houston. 

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huge

huge 3793

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6 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Yeah.  Barry Bonds was one of the greatest hitters of all time.  And one of the biggest cheaters.  

 

Anyway, I'll take leave of this thread.  Sorry for crashing the party.

There is likely nothing left to be said.  Good luck this season.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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4 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

The Astros were a good baseball team and the players you cite are exceptionally talented baseball players. But they still cheated. They aren't good baseball players because they cheated. But being good doesn't mean that they didn't cheat. The Astros cheated their way to a title that will forever be viewed with an asterisk by pretty much every baseball fan not born in Houston. 

You Ranger fans may even be whinier than Dodger fans.  

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54253

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22 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

The Astros were a good baseball team and the players you cite are exceptionally talented baseball players. But they still cheated. They aren't good baseball players because they cheated. But being good doesn't mean that they didn't cheat. The Astros cheated their way to a title that will forever be viewed with an asterisk by pretty much every baseball fan not born in Houston. 

I don't know, I think the winds will shift on Houston as soon as the Boston investigation results are released.  We're going to find out that every good team was cheating, so there's no point in assigning asterisks to any of them.  

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pepper brooks

pepper brooks 580

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Posted

it's a pretty limited basket or collection of players who were using this sign stealing system.  some were steadfastly against any and all distractions at the plate.  classifying the entire team and organization as "cheaters" is an oversimplification, but about what I expect from today's "cancel" culture.  that is, in no way a defense of them cheating.  THey did.  

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Cornfusion

Cornfusion 250

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 Fans can't bash the Astros for cheating when you can go back and make legit claims against a lot of other organizations.

Absolutely they can. 

Being a cheater amongst a bunch of other cheaters doesn't make one any less of a cheater, does it?  Cheaters gain no advantage against other cheaters.  That is just a push, more or less.  Cheaters seek to gain an advantage over those who are honest and don't cheat.  Cheating  pays off against those who are those who ARE following the rules. 

Also, saying "I am no worse than all of the the rest of the outed sleazeballs!" isn't a very flattering way to define oneself throughout a career or even a life.

 

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I don't know, I think the winds will shift on Houston as soon as the Boston investigation results are released.  We're going to find out that every good team was cheating, so there's no point in assigning asterisks to any of them.  

He is just holding out hope that it goes all the way back to the 2011 Cards, so he can finally wear the Rangers Champs shirt that he stole from some poor Ethiopian kid with pride.

There aren't going to be asterisks, do-overs, or even league apologies no matter what else is found.  Y'all have some short memories.  It isn't like the steroid era was so long ago.  Not a single asterisk even considered.  Not for Arod's WS team.  Not for Clemens' WS team either.  Clemens even had roid rage incidents on the field.   They did get HOF soft bans, but you aren't even going to see that with any current Astro that ends up with HOF worthy stats.

Steroids was also a bigger deal than sign stealing.  Sign stealing has been around forever and will continue to be around as long as signs are still used.  Steroids is a step below putting in bionic body parts to improve performance.

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6315

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Just now, Cornfusion said:

Dude, do you even do reality???  It's not a "notion".  It's a fact.  "Notions" don't carry a $5 million price tag and suspensions and losing draft choices.

The players received no punishment at all. That's who I specifically mentioned. I am referring to people claiming that "Altuve only won the MVP because he cheated" and the like. There is not much evidence that the scheme had any measurable impact on performance. 

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justinjc7

justinjc7 153

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Posted

Imagine, a sport where cheating has been engrained into the fabric of the game for as long as it has been around....whether it be through using emory boards to scuff up balls by the pitcher, corked bats, using steroids, using pine tar (looking at you Mike Fiers you hypocritical piece of shit), hacking into other teams' databases, using Vaseline, gambling on games, using Apple Watches and other electronics in the dugout, etc.....and people act like the Astros are the ONLY team engaging in sign stealing?  Like this is an Astros problem and not an MLB problem? Get the fuck out of here with that bull shit.  Yes the Astros cheated, no they shouldn't have done it, yes they should be punished.  But for them to get the punishment they did while others skate by and people still think they didn't get punished enough?  FOH with all that asterisk shit 

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