Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 4:29 PM, HtownHorn said:

The hilarious part to all of this, is MLB's decision to add instant replay was the conduit by which all teams have the technology to "cheat." The Astros went too far with the trash can banging, but there is no doubt every team in baseball is using the replay technology for an advantage.

Expand  

Yep. 

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2020/1/14/21066585/alex-cora-boston-red-sox-fired-manager-sign-stealing

Posted

Everyone knows that cheating like this was widespread. The Astros were dumb enough to use the trash can. We don't know what the signals to the batter were for the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, and others yet. But at this point only a fool would think that those teams weren't cheating.

Whether they admit it or not is a different story altogether.

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 1:20 AM, henrygandorf said:

cora out. 

Expand  

We should hire him.  Sports are full of cases where coaches get busted for cheating at one or more places and still get more opportunities if they win enough.

 

  On 1/15/2020 at 5:35 AM, tx 3 putt said:

cora is going to be on that Pete Rose mlb permaban list 

Expand  

No he won't.  If he is then Hinch and Luhnow have to go on it as well.

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 5:13 PM, Fudge Nuggets said:

No he won't.  If he is then Hinch and Luhnow have to go on it as well.

Expand  

I'm not saying Cora will end up permabanned, but he was much more culpable than Hinch or Luhnow in the Astros' scheme and he allegedly did something similar in Boston. His punishment will likely be far worse than a one year ban. 

Posted

Has it been reported when this started and stopped for the Astros? And if it didn't continue after 2017, why and how did it stop?  I had heard thru some personal sources that it may have last as short as 10 regular season home games in 2017 but there seems to be universal commentary that this continued into the 2017 WS and perhaps even later. But I didn't read either in the report.

 

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 5:26 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Has it been reported when this started and stopped for the Astros? And if it didn't continue after 2017, why and how did it stop?  I had heard thru some personal sources that it may have last as short as 10 regular season home games in 2017 but there seems to be universal commentary that this continued into the 2017 WS and perhaps even later. But I didn't read either in the report.

 

Expand  

I read somewhere that a version of it continued into the early part of 2018. 

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 5:18 PM, Seasick Sailor said:

I'm not saying Cora will end up permabanned, but he was much more culpable than Hinch or Luhnow in the Astros' scheme and he allegedly did something similar in Boston. His punishment will likely be far worse than a one year ban. 

Expand  

Yeah the architect of the scheme who then took it to Boston is not equivalent to Hinch/Lunhow doing nothing about what they didn’t create. 

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 5:26 PM, Seasick Sailor said:

I read somewhere that a version of it continued into the early part of 2018. 

Expand  

The released report is such bs to provide such little information, but the purpose of it seems to be to protect Crane and the players at the expense of Luhnow and Hinch.  Crane gets to use his owner's privilege to blame Luhnow for everything that occurs within the scope of the entire organization but Crane gets to keep his trophy and take zero responsibility himself. Crane might end up being the best owner in Houston sports history but personally he comes across as a POS.

I also think a lot less of all of the players involved, even though MLB will completely protect their identities except for Beltran. They appear to state that they knew it was wrong but they looked to Hinch to be the moral leader. How about you as an adult take more responsibility for your own ethics or morals.  Even if your boss is looking the other way at your unethical behavior, it doesn't excuse what you did.

Posted (edited)
  On 1/15/2020 at 5:39 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The released report is such bs to provide such little information, but the purpose of it seems to be to protect Crane and the players at the expense of Luhnow and Hinch.  Crane gets to use his owner's privilege to blame Luhnow for everything that occurs within the scope of the entire organization but Crane gets to keep his trophy and take zero responsibility himself. Crane might end up being the best owner in Houston sports history but personally he comes across as a POS.

I also think a lot less of all of the players involved, even though MLB will completely protect their identities except for Beltran. They appear to state that they knew it was wrong but they looked to Hinch to be the moral leader. How about you as an adult take more responsibility for your own ethics or morals.  Even if your boss is looking the other way at your unethical behavior, it doesn't excuse what you did.

Expand  

Here's what the report said:

Most of the position players on the 2017 team either received sign information from the banging scheme or participated in the scheme by helping to decode signs or bang on the trash can.

Now, that "or" is carrying a hell of a lot of weight in that sentence.  "Helping to decode signs" is a pretty meaningless statement.  Is that the standard sign study before/after games that every single player in the league participates in?  If so, it's asinine and irresponsible to lump those guys in with the rest.  Again, this is where "yeah everyone breaks rules but they broke them worse!" argument falls apart.  

It's crazy that the report included vague references to these allegations, including words like "most" without additional detail.    

Edited by Chuckie Finster
Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 5:26 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Has it been reported when this started and stopped for the Astros? And if it didn't continue after 2017, why and how did it stop?  I had heard thru some personal sources that it may have last as short as 10 regular season home games in 2017 but there seems to be universal commentary that this continued into the 2017 WS and perhaps even later. But I didn't read either in the report.

 

Expand  

You must really suck at reading then.

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:09 PM, Beau Vine said:

You must really suck at reading then.

Expand  

Not really.  The report doesn't mention whether the cheating occurred in the 2017 post season or not.  That is THE most important question.

 For 2018, they only reference that the video setup changed with all teams including the Astros and the Astros transmitted the pitch selection to the dugout only.  Then completely stopped when the Astros found the entire process worthless.

The holes in that story are a mile wide.  But I do understand that MLB will do anything to avoid having to take away the WS wins by the Astros and Red Sox. This must have been the most important outcome that was decided before the investigation.

 

Posted

Breaking Down the Harshest Draft Penalties

By J.J. Cooper

  Reveal hidden contents

Posted

This whole thing is ridiculous. Major League Baseball bending over backward to "protect the integrity of the sport" is only bringing to light, once again, just how much cheating is ingrained in the culture of baseball itself. This goes on all over the league, everyone knows it, but no one really wants to do anything about it. They want to scapegoat, slap wrists, and pretend it goes away. It won't though, because cheating leads to a more entertaining product on the field and a more entertaining product on the field leads to more revenue.

  • Like 3
Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:22 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Not really.  The report doesn't mention whether the cheating occurred in the 2017 post season or not.  That is THE most important question.

 

Expand  
  Quote

Notwithstanding the publicity surrounding the Red Sox incident, and the September
15th memorandum that I sent to all Clubs, the Astros continued to both utilize the replay
review room and the monitor located next to the dugout to decode signs for the remainder
of the regular season and throughout the Postseason.

Expand  

 

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:37 PM, David Dennison said:

This whole thing is ridiculous. Major League Baseball bending over backward to "protect the integrity of the sport" is only bringing to light, once again, just how much cheating is ingrained in the culture of baseball itself. This goes on all over the league, everyone knows it, but no one really wants to do anything about it. They want to scapegoat, slap wrists, and pretend it goes away. It won't though, because cheating leads to a more entertaining product on the field and a more entertaining product on the field leads to more revenue.

Expand  

I mean, Gaylord Perry is in the hall of fame.

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:38 PM, runthebone said:

I know, it won't be the same.  WuhSox?

Expand  

woo.png?w=439

The logo, a smiley face with red socks swinging the bat like Ortiz and Williams, is in ode to the birthplace of the original Smiley Face (drawn in 1963 by the late Worcester advertising executive Harvey Ball)

Edited by Beau Vine
Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:40 PM, Beau Vine said:

woo.png?w=439

The logo, a smiley face with red socks swinging the bat like Ortiz and Williams, is in ode to the birthplace of the original Smiley Face (drawn in 1963 by the late Worcester advertising executive Harvey Ball)

Expand  

Uh, that's a bunch of bullshit. The smiley face was originated when Forrest Gump wiped his face on a yellow t-shirt. Everyone knows that.

  • Like 2
Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:38 PM, Beau Vine said:

Notwithstanding the publicity surrounding the Red Sox incident, and the September
15th memorandum that I sent to all Clubs, the Astros continued to both utilize the replay
review room and the monitor located next to the dugout to decode signs for the remainder
of the regular season and throughout the Postseason.

Expand  

The missing info is whether they used the decoded signs and transmitted them to the batter. That's the entire violation. MLB doesn't really care that much if you want to decode signals all day if that info isn't send to the batter. 

But why isn't MLB pulling the WS champs for both if this is so egregious? Tells me that they agree that it meant nothing to the outcome to any game. And if it didn't impact any game, why is anyone being punished at this level. 

I know the answer, it's to protect Crane.

 

Posted

Go look at the Astros 2007 draft. That's what the next 2 years are going to look like. The 2 best guys they drafted didn't sign. I'm not sure what the strategy will be. Either max out 1-2 guys, or look to sign a bunch of projects.

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:51 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The missing info is whether they used the decoded signs and transmitted them to the batter. That's the entire violation. MLB doesn't really care that much if you want to decode signals all day if that info isn't send to the batter. 

But why isn't MLB pulling the WS champs for both if this is so egregious? Tells me that they agree that it meant nothing to the outcome to any game. And if it didn't impact any game, why is anyone being punished at this level. 

I know the answer, it's to protect Crane.

 

Expand  

It shouldn't be hard to determine if the Astros continued banging the trash can in the postseason. We have video and audio of every game from multiple sources. I'm inclined to believe they didn't. ESPN and every sports casting team across the nation have surely listened to the tapes of every postseason game by now. There's no way it wouldn't be all over the news if it had been found. 

Plus, SI sources say the investigation determined it wasn't used in the playoffs. Whoever those sources happen to be. 

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:59 PM, HtownHorn said:

Go look at the Astros 2007 draft. That's what the next 2 years are going to look like. The 2 best guys they drafted didn't sign. I'm not sure what the strategy will be. Either max out 1-2 guys, or look to sign a bunch of projects.

Expand  

Can we go way over spot in the third round for a guy who dropped because of signability?

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:51 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The missing info is whether they used the decoded signs and transmitted them to the batter. That's the entire violation. MLB doesn't really care that much if you want to decode signals all day if that info isn't send to the batter. 

Expand  

Well, you could literally read that to say that the Astros were just decoding signs for the fun of it once the postseason rolled around, or you could read it in the context of being in a section entitled "Rules Violations in the 2017 Season," wherein it was previously stated that "employees in the Astros’ video replay review room began using the live game feed from the center field camera to attempt to decode and transmit opposing teams’ sign sequences," so "continued to utilize the replay review room and monitor" implies that were doing what was described earlier, in which case all but the gravest dullards would conclude they were sending the info to the batter. 

  • Like 1
Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 7:12 PM, runthebone said:

Can we go way over spot in the third round for a guy who dropped because of signability?

Expand  

My understanding is that we also lose the slot values for the top two picks, but I suppose we could use all of our available funds on one guy. We'll just have less to spend to make it happen. 

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 7:06 PM, FondrenRoad said:

It shouldn't be hard to determine if the Astros continued banging the trash can in the postseason. We have video and audio of every game from multiple sources. I'm inclined to believe they didn't. ESPN and every sports casting team across the nation have surely listened to the tapes of every postseason game by now. There's no way it wouldn't be all over the news if it had been found. 

Plus, SI sources say the investigation determined it wasn't used in the playoffs. Whoever those sources happen to be. 

Expand  

I was under the impression that the Fahrquar incident freaked the team out so much that the trash can banging pretty much ended right there, which IIRC was 9/22.

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 6:59 PM, HtownHorn said:

Go look at the Astros 2007 draft. That's what the next 2 years are going to look like. The 2 best guys they drafted didn't sign.

Expand  

IIRC, they didn't have 1st & 2nd rounders that season, so the 2 best guys they drafted were 3rd & 4th rounders. 

Posted

Hinch and Lunhow have to ask for reinstatement after one year. No guarantees they’re job hunting Jan 2021. 
 

I suspect we won’t hear a word out of them for the next 12 months. 

Posted
  Quote

When the Houston Astros hoisted high that World Series trophy in 2017, they lifted an entire city. Now that the shining symbol of resilience is scuttled by scandal, we are all laid low.

Faith is often an endeavor, but Houston in 2017 was in particular need of believing. We were primed to see poetry and heroism in the mastery of athletes who remade a failing team into victors. We eagerly bought into the narrative. We sported jerseys, painted murals, baked cakes believed to bring good luck. Ravaged by Hurricane Harvey, baseball fans across the Gulf Coast who lost livelihoods and living rooms found solace in rooting for the home team. And the home team didn’t let us down.

Until now.

All across the nation’s fourth largest city, Astros fans are contemplating a shameful revelation: the most successful team in franchise history will now be remembered as something far worse than a failure: a fraud. For all the players’ many accomplishments on the field, the men exalted as heroes failed to live up to basic standards of sportsmanship, honesty and integrity.

 

The Astros cheated.

It doesn’t matter that the almost juvenile-like scheme — using a video camera to decode signs from opposing catchers and transmit signals to Houston batters by banging on a dugout trashcan — likely had little to do with the team’s 101 wins, division championship and thrilling playoff victories that year. It doesn’t matter that other teams had done the same or that baseball has a history of scandals, minor and major.

It only matters that the Astros players knew what they were doing was wrong and did it anyway. That became clear Monday when Major League Baseball released a report that confirms that the cheating did occur, even after teams were informed that such actions were wrong and would be punished.

 

A team that was more than talented enough to win without subterfuge or seeking unfair advantage chose instead to skirt the rules, break faith with the fans and disrespect the integrity of the game. Although it appears that none of the players will face official punishment, they will have to live with the tainted legacy they created.

Team owner Jim Crane, who says he knew nothing of the sign-stealing scam, should be credited with cooperating fully with Major League Baseball’s investigation of the scandal and making the hard choices of firing general manager Jeff Luhnow and field manager A.J. Hinch, who were responsible for enforcing the standards that the team failed to meet.

Luhnow’s personnel decisions are seen as the reason for the Astros’ turnaround while Hinch won respect for handling the talented roster. Both will likely be back in baseball when they complete one-year suspensions handed down by the league. But it won’t be with the Astros.

“I have higher standards for the city and the franchise,” Crane said while promising Astros fans “that we’ll always do the right thing and will not have this happen again on my watch.”

 

To do that, the owner must address a team culture that baseball commissioner Rob Manfred said “valued and rewarded results over other considerations,” the heart of what knocked the Astros from their pedestal.

 

It included an ugly scene in which then-assistant general manager Brandon Taubman shouted at three female reporters in the team locker room, apparently taunting them with the on-field success of Roberto Osuna, a pitcher the team had acquired while he was serving a 75-game suspension for violating the league’s domestic violence policy.

“Thank God we got Osuna! I’m so glad we got Osuna!” Taubman shouted as the Astros celebrated a pennant-clinching victory. He was later fired.

Crane said Monday that he saw the events as “two separate incidents,” but in hindsight, it’s evidence of an organization that saw itself above the rules.

 

They didn’t need to lie or cheat but they did so anyway. That will be the legacy of the 2017 Astros.

And where does that leave a city that believed, a city that skipped work and closed schools to pack downtown streets by the thousands to cheer a parade of heroes?

Shaken, but still standing. And still deserving of a home team that comes through with a win — but comes by it honestly. This storm, too, shall pass. They always do.

Expand  

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Astros-never-let-us-down-Until-now-Editorial-14975364.php

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 4:29 PM, HtownHorn said:

The hilarious part to all of this, is MLB's decision to add instant replay was the conduit by which all teams have the technology to "cheat." The Astros went too far with the trash can banging, but there is no doubt every team in baseball is using the replay technology for an advantage.

Expand  

You may be right, but there was picture floating around last week from Mike Scott's autobiography where he claimed that when he was on the Mets in the early 1980s, they used the exact same scheme. Bullpen pitchers would watch a monitor that had a zoomed in view of the catcher. They would then signal to the hitter what pitch was coming.

Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 7:15 PM, Guadaloopy said:

Nope.  We lose first and second round slot money, too. 

Expand  

Yes, but they still have the rest of the slot values from the compensation pick and rounds 3-10. Of course losing around $3M from the top 2 picks is going to hurt, but we can still use the rest of the slot money + nearly 5% and not incur anymore penalties. I think if a kid drops due to signing concerns, you take him and throw your pool at him. You can't have 2 consecutive 2007 drafts.

Posted

Glad I didn't buy a lot of World Series gear celebrating this fraudulent championship.  I did frame a Houston Chronicle front page along with the Sports Illustrated cover from 2014 announcing them as 2017 champions.  I'll probably take a bat to those and throw them away.  Hope at some point in my lifetime we'll win a legitimate World Series.  I still remember sitting on my sofa on November 1, 2017 and watching the last out.  Man, what a feeling that was, and it was all for naught.  In closing I'd like to give big FUCK YOU to AJ Hinch, Jeff Luhnow, Alex Cora, Carlos Beltran and all the players who cheated and/or did nothing to stop it. 

  • Like 2
Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 8:27 PM, cabowabo said:
Glad I didn't buy a lot of World Series gear celebrating this fraudulent championship.  I did frame a Houston Chronicle front page along with the Sports Illustrated cover from 2014 announcing them as 2017 champions.  I'll probably take a bat to those and throw them away.  Hope at some point in my lifetime we'll win a legitimate World Series.  I still remember sitting on my sofa on November 1, 2017 and watching the last out.  Man, what a feeling that was, and it was all for naught.  In closing I'd like to give big FUCK YOU to AJ Hinch, Jeff Luhnow, Alex Cora, Carlos Beltran and all the players who cheated and/or did nothing to stop it. 
Lol
  • Like 1
Posted
  On 1/15/2020 at 8:35 PM, DaysOff said:
  On 1/15/2020 at 8:27 PM, cabowabo said:
Glad I didn't buy a lot of World Series gear celebrating this fraudulent championship.  I did frame a Houston Chronicle front page along with the Sports Illustrated cover from 2014 announcing them as 2017 champions.  I'll probably take a bat to those and throw them away.  Hope at some point in my lifetime we'll win a legitimate World Series.  I still remember sitting on my sofa on November 1, 2017 and watching the last out.  Man, what a feeling that was, and it was all for naught.  In closing I'd like to give big FUCK YOU to AJ Hinch, Jeff Luhnow, Alex Cora, Carlos Beltran and all the players who cheated and/or did nothing to stop it. 
Expand  

Lol

Expand  

It ain't funny.....

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...