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2020 astros offseason

elfenix

By elfenix
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David Dennison

David Dennison 18608

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Planet Houston said:

Fuck you - I do back this team no matter what. I back the players that play the fucking game.  And I back AJ Hinch no matter what. Those that have been around these threads for a lot longer than your mercurial ass can testify to that  

I do not love Luhnow and his arrogant bunch of pricks no matter what.  And I don’t love the team’s handling of Taubman, or this scandal, or anything else that’s happened recently from a PR perspective.  But they shouldn’t lie like that fucking snake Luhnow (and Beltran). 

AJ fucked up. He could have put a stop to this and he chose not to. That's on him and he deserved to get fired.

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Eastwood
Eastwood

Here's the thing that makes me absolutely livid about this... Cheating happens all the time in baseball. At all levels. All levels. The MLB itself cheats the game by juicing the ball. Players juiced t

Asithappens
Asithappens

It's not the end, I agree. The Astros are still sacks of giant shit, though.  Shame on them.

Asithappens
Asithappens

Very sad to see that the Astros are basically dipshit cheaters from the top down. Hey, at least the Black Sox are happy that someone else is wearing their crown of infamy.    

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Jshep34

Jshep34 2303

Posted
Posted
Everyone watching that game with a baseball IQ over 2 knew what the pitch was going to be.  Like you inferred, Chapman couldn't get his FB over for shit so slider was all he had left.
Stop with the common sense it takes away from the national media agenda

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Gourmand

Gourmand 7774

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Posted
So, what's the over/under on bench clearing incidents involving the Astros this year?
I'm skeptical about this line of thinking and won't be surprised if there's little response on the field of play. Many hitters on opposing teams were doing shady shit as well. They won't want to keep this alive into the regular season by brawling about shit from 2017.

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Planet Houston

Planet Houston 4922

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

AJ fucked up. He could have put a stop to this and he chose not to. That's on him and he deserved to get fired.

I agree he fucked up, but I think he’s a genuinely good person who wanted to do the right thing. I totally believe that he felt neutered by the fact that Beltran was the ringleader. Don’t underestimate where a certain few long-time legends stand in the pecking order - even over their manager. 

What he should have done was brought it to Crane after the letter from Manfred. But even then the players may have tried to rogue. 

Who knows how it plays out in a parallel universe. It absolutely sucks that it went down like this and that we took it the extra step to become the poster child for cracking down on a problem MLB created itself. 

I’m done with “Fuck Bud Selig.”

Fuck Rob Manfred. 

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18608

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1 hour ago, Planet Houston said:

I agree he fucked up, but I think he’s a genuinely good person who wanted to do the right thing. I totally believe that he felt neutered by the fact that Beltran was the ringleader. Don’t underestimate where a certain few long-time legends stand in the pecking order - even over their manager. 

What he should have done was brought it to Crane after the letter from Manfred. But even then the players may have tried to rogue. 

Who knows how it plays out in a parallel universe. It absolutely sucks that it went down like this and that we took it the extra step to become the poster child for cracking down on a problem MLB created itself. 

I’m done with “Fuck Bud Selig.”

Fuck Rob Manfred. 

If true, that's pathetic.

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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 14446

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3 hours ago, Foosters said:

As an astros fan that is fucking embarrassed by this whole thing and even contemplated finding a different team to root for until all of the rot is cleaned out of this organization, this is a good point. I SPECIFICALLY remember the MLB TV guys breaking down this AB and discussing how Chapman blew it bc every batter in that situation would be looking for that same pitch. 

Especially since he had walked Springer on 5 pitches before the Altuve walk off. Most of those pitches to Springer were FB's that were not close to the strike zone.

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WBT

WBT 20397

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

Especially since he had walked Springer on 5 pitches before the Altuve walk off. Most of those pitches to Springer were FB's that were not close to the strike zone.

Yeah I meant to mention that in my post.  Not being able to get the fastball over to Altuve was a carryover from the Springer AB.

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9797

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bevo VIII said:


So just like the astros?

Won a lot for a few years, claimed to be a world power/champion, and ultimately brought down by their own leadership/officers|players/management?

We should go back and void all titles with Roid users. You know, illegal drugs, cheaters. Wonder what came first in baseball, sign stealing or roids?  Cocaine is a hell of a drug. 
 

I saw that the Yankees closers took time out from beating his wife to take a shot at the Astros. Really hurts when a woman beater disparages your game play.  

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Mez2

Mez2 4020

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Posted (edited)

The real question is why did he pitch to Altuve with jake on deck?

Altuve is in a hitter's count-ish, Chapman decides to pitch backwards thinking he's looking for a FB with Chapman down in the count. He throws that get me over slider for a strike hoping tuve is looking FB. That happens count is even and then chapman goes fastball-fastball. That's what I would have done. Or just pitched to jake

Cole was having a conversation with maybe Reddick during his AB and one of them even said tuve is looking slider and if he gets it he's going deep. This part has been reported and in multiple stories right after 

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RegularSizedRudy

RegularSizedRudy 36

Posted
Posted

Chapman threw an 84mph spinner out over the plate. Any competent MLB hitter should put good wood on that even without a buzzer.

But y'all know what? They cheated in 2017.

Did other teams cheat too? Probably, but there's a good chance it'll never be confirmed.

And y'all know what else? Flags fly forever.

Fuck dumpster Fiers. Fuck Manfred. Fuck the Dodgers, Yankees, and the Red Sox.

Everyone outside of Houston hates the Astros and fuck them too.

This team will be playing with a major chip on their shoulder this year, and I don't want to think they'll let us down.

I'm just hoping for a Julia dance dance routine after the clinching game of the World Series.

 

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53965

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Posted

Drellich doesn't sound like an Astro hater at all here:

Quote

The blame game that has sprung from the Astros’ sign-stealing scandal cannot be won, because the culpability is everywhere.

Naturally, the Astros — that broad collective — are the guiltiest party. But any quest to understand who, what, when and why involves different people and topics at different times.

What happened in Houston is the result of a collision of subcultures, with outside forces at play as well, be it league policy or the historically insular nature of locker rooms.

The origin of the Astros’ cheating is not singular. Such a determination depends on how far back you want to trace the system, and which set of circumstances you view as most important. The environment, the conditions and the choices that helped foster one of the worst cheating scandals in baseball history are complicated.

There were even two threads of electronic sign stealing to follow: what happened with the trash can and the television monitor in the dugout tunnel, and what happened with the video-replay room. They’re intertwined, but not identical.

Here is an exercise. Go ahead and try to rank these factors that powered the sign-stealing scandal, and consider how they feed into one another:

Across MLB

• Major League Baseball instituted instant-replay challenges in 2014 and sanctioned the development of video-replay rooms. In addition, the league allowed teams to position those rooms close to dugouts, if the teams wanted. MLB also permitted the use of live video and technology by teams in other capacities, including the in-game review of at-bats.

• MLB punished the Red Sox and Yankees in September 2017 for sign stealing via the replay room, but did not put any on-site enforcement into replay rooms until 2018. In fact, a full regular season of play passed in 2018 before MLB instituted full-time, in-person monitoring in the replay rooms.

• In MLB’s eyes, there was a gray area in the 2017 season regarding sign stealing and replay rooms. While electronic sign stealing was broadly prohibited — and something like the trash-can scheme with a video monitor clearly prohibited — the rules did not include specific wording about those replay rooms. MLB’s own interpretation of the rules in September 2017 gave credence to the idea of a gray area. The punishment issued then to the Red Sox and Yankees was not centered on the act of using the video-replay room to decode signs, but on how the teams relayed the information from the replay room to the field — via an electronic device. Was that interpretation correct, or merely practical, as the problem had already begun to spread under MLB’s nose? MLB changed its rules for the next season to expressly prohibit the use of the replay rooms during games to figure out signs.

• Throughout the history of this sport as well as others, the culture among players and inside locker rooms is generally secretive and protective, a brotherhood. Such a culture, while widely accepted, can nonetheless help facilitate and cover up wrongdoing. Functionally, locker-room culture makes it difficult for anyone on the outside — league officials, media, fans — to learn exactly what goes on with a team. Particularly in real time.

• The highest-ranking body involved here is the commissioner’s office. MLB was certainly well aware of the secretive nature of clubhouses following the scandals of the performance-enhancing drug era. As technology spread throughout the sport, could MLB have forgotten some of the lessons from PEDs — specifically, how necessary it is to be diligent and proactive in policing the different ways players and teams seek an edge? Did the league invest the necessary resources and dedicate enough personnel to heading off major problems with its on-field product, such as this one?

• The MLB Players Association has a seat at the table as well. At union meetings in recent years, players have discussed the drag on the pace of game created by electronic sign stealing. Union officials did not make sign stealing a top priority at that point.

• Not every rule in the sport is strictly enforced or policed, perhaps adding incentive for teams and players to push the envelope. Pitchers are rarely stopped for using substances to aid their grip on the ball, for example.

• Players and teams are highly competitive and want to gain every edge. If they believe one team is getting away with something, they may be inclined to do it themselves.

In Houston

• The Astros front office showed support for the act of electronic sign stealing via the development of “Codebreaker,” an Excel algorithm that could have been used legally as an advance scouting tool but was also deployed illegally.

• The Astros front office showed further support for sign stealing via email communications about the team’s sign-stealing schemes, including the progress reports sent from staffer Tom Koch-Weser to general manager Jeff Luhnow, as reported by the Wall Street Journal.

• Luhnow did not forward necessary league-issued bulletins related to electronic sign stealing to dugout personnel.

• In general, MLB and the teams alike may not have done as much as they could have to make sure such bulletins were front and center for players, that notice of the rules were given.

• Players should be expected to have an innate sense of right and wrong, just as any person should, regardless of the prominent posting of those rules.

• The same expected sense of right and wrong goes for anyone else who knew of the Astros’ schemes. By the end of the season, that was virtually everyone in proximity to the dugout and the team, including manager A.J. Hinch and the coaching staff.

• The culture Luhnow built in Houston under owner Jim Crane was a win-first, bottom-line-oriented culture, without enough concern for other factors — a leadership philosophy that can and likely did have a trickle-down effect, even if that was not always directly evident.

• Carlos Beltrán and Alex Cora spearheaded the specific development of the trash-banging system that used a video monitor and a center-field camera feed, the most egregious example of rule-breaking committed by the Astros.

• What blame falls on those who initiate something compared to those who benefit from something and/or do not stop it? Other players went along with the trash-can banging and did not stop it — and even enjoyed its fruits. As The Athletic reported, some in the Astros clubhouse said they indeed felt they could not effectively stop the trash-can banging system. Should they have felt that way? The explanation for inaction is not inherently an excuse for inaction.

• The set-up of that video monitor with the center-field feed required help from other Astros staff.

• Other teams, including the A’s, complained to MLB about the Astros. Published reports also cast doubt on the Astros’ actions. But MLB did not get to the bottom of the matter until it launched an investigation following The Athletic’s report on Nov. 12. Full fledged investigations are hard for a league to commence without hard proof, and schemes can take place both behind the scenes and with some air of plausible deniability — a fact a team could leverage.

• The buck is supposed to stop with the manager, Hinch. Hinch twice destroyed the screen, but never put his foot down, a task his role demanded.

• The buck is supposed to stop with Luhnow, who was in charge of the entirety of baseball operations, including Hinch and the players.

• The buck is supposed to stop with the owner, Crane.

• The buck is supposed to stop with the highest-ranking authority in the sport, commissioner Rob Manfred.

• The players and lower-level staffers should know better, even if they’re not ultimately responsible in a standard management hierarchy.

Seems like we’re running in circles now. The Astros’ sign-stealing scandal is a mess, all the way around, rife with failure at so many turns.

 

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 53965

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Posted

I'd like to make a very serious confession.  I was once involved in a sign-stealing operation.  

I was 12 years old in Little League, and my team was facing its big rival that year.  Skip Johnson (yes, that guy) came out throwing the first curveballs many of us had ever seen and we didn't have a chance.  Lost 6-0.  So the next time we played his team, we practiced against curveballs all week and also set up a plan where the third base coach would yell out the batter's last name if he saw the catcher drop down a #2 sign.   We beat Skip 3-2, and I even got a hit against one of his curves because I knew it was coming and I didn't bail out when it started at my head.  

I'd like to apologize to all affected by this incident.

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Honeysucklerose

Honeysucklerose 957

Posted
Posted
I'd like to make a very serious confession.  I was once involved in a sign-stealing operation.  
I was 12 years old in Little League, and my team was facing its big rival that year.  Skip Johnson (yes, that guy) came out throwing the first curveballs many of us had ever seen and we didn't have a chance.  Lost 6-0.  So the next time we played his team, we practiced against curveballs all week and also set up a plan where the third base coach would yell out the batter's last name if he saw the catcher drop down a #2 sign.   We beat Skip 3-2, and I even got a hit against one of his curves because I knew it was coming and I didn't bail out when it started at my head.  
I'd like to apologize to all affected by this incident.

Sure, but did you use electronics???
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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 14446

Posted
Posted
34 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Drellich doesn't sound like an Astro hater at all here:

 

Pretty fair and balanced summation of the issue at hand. Manfred miss the opportunity in 2017 after the Red Sox and Yankees got caught. He could of said, next player(s) that gets caught using the replay room to relay signs during the game is taking a long vacation. He didn't, and predictable the sentence he handed down to those to clubs was light.

I always found it humorous that MLB through the replay technology gave every team in baseball the equipment needed to steal signs, without any kind of guidance or penalty system in place, and then Manfred acts all surprised when teams start using the technology to steal signs. The stupidity of MLB is once again on full display.

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runthebone

runthebone 7929

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I'd like to make a very serious confession.  I was once involved in a sign-stealing operation.  

I was 12 years old in Little League, and my team was facing its big rival that year.  Skip Johnson (yes, that guy) came out throwing the first curveballs many of us had ever seen and we didn't have a chance.  Lost 6-0.  So the next time we played his team, we practiced against curveballs all week and also set up a plan where the third base coach would yell out the batter's last name if he saw the catcher drop down a #2 sign.   We beat Skip 3-2, and I even got a hit against one of his curves because I knew it was coming and I didn't bail out when it started at my head.  

I'd like to apologize to all affected by this incident.

Sounds like you're a better hitter than anyone on the Yankees.

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WBT

WBT 20397

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Posted
7 hours ago, Scraps said:

I fully expect Springer (im guessing he still leads off game 1....but Dusty may change this who the fuck knows) to wear the first pitch of the season.
 

That's just smart baseball.  Better to start the year with a runner on 1st than down 1-0.

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Lat22

Lat22 3990

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Guadaloopy said:

PSA... This year’s batch of Yankee and Dodger tears is expected to reach unforeseen levels of purity.  Potency will be off the charts.  We’re talking Heisenberg levels.  Be very, very careful with your dose when the Astros knock them both out and win the WS this year.  

It's going to be a banner year for enjoying the tears of your opposition.

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Js1

Js1 85056

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

Pretty fair and balanced summation of the issue at hand. Manfred miss the opportunity in 2017 after the Red Sox and Yankees got caught. He could of said, next player(s) that gets caught using the replay room to relay signs during the game is taking a long vacation. He didn't, and predictable the sentence he handed down to those to clubs was light.

I always found it humorous that MLB through the replay technology gave every team in baseball the equipment needed to steal signs, without any kind of guidance or penalty system in place, and then Manfred acts all surprised when teams start using the technology to steal signs. The stupidity of MLB is once again on full display.

Lol right. 

MLB: gives teams the technology to steal signs

Astros: steal signs 

Manfred: spacer.png

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 2/13/2020 at 7:11 AM, Hank Chinaski said:

They're going to get skewered no matter what they do. So I wouldn't say a fucking word. 

...Aaaaaand here are the headlines:

How Jim Crane's "aplogoy" became a farce (ESPN)

Astros offer few apologies for for now tainted 2017 WS victory (WSJ)

After a clumsy apology, Astros must face all that comes next (The Athletic)

Like I said yesterday before the PC...no apology will be enough to satisfy all the jerkoffs who have spent the last month literally asking for an apology. So why even give them the satisfaction or fodder for a new round of sanctimonious drivel? They wanted the apology so that they could write about how it was insincere, not enough, etc. It was obvious. 

The players yesterday repeatedly said "sorry", "i feel horrible", "I regret it", etc...what in the ever-loving shit did these self-righteous cocksuckers want? Oh, that's right, to keep the party going so they don't have to come up with new stuff to write about as spring training is now a few days away. 

PS - I'm not linking the article because fuck those guys. 

 

Edited by Hank Chinaski
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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted (edited)

I fucking love Adam Clanton. He is loyal to his city and our teams. He is bringing it on Twitter. Own it. We were the most advanced and cutting edge hellbent on winning. Say that and tell everyone to fuck off. Fuck the haters.

 

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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