Solar Panels for the house

[Gil Bang 25975]

5 hours ago, Quagmire said:

160 a month isn’t bad, I’m assuming no battery storage though ?

No.  I didn't see the benefit vs. cost.   Our grid is pretty reliable.  I don't think we've lost power for more than a few hours combined in the last several years, unless some drunk runs into a pole or something. 

[Gil Bang 25975]

On 6/19/2022 at 9:24 PM, Gil Bang said:

So, here's my adventure in solar:

Well over a year ago, I heard about Tesla's "subscription" service, where you basically rent a solar system from Tesla on a month-to-month basis, with a "cancel anytime" deal.  OK, that sounds great, I'll take it. 

Tesla says that they need to come out to do a site survey.  A couple of weeks later, somebody shows up.  The guy checks out my electrical system, and gets on the roof. About a week later, Tesla contacts me and says that they won't install a system on my house unless I upgrade my main panel.  They tell me that they will send me a bid for the work.  A few days later, a bid shows up for $7,500 IIRC.  

I consult my nephew, the electrician (that lives quite a ways away) and he says it's too high.  

Then, life happens and the GF and I are dealing with other (mostly out-of-state family) shit and the solar system gets back-burnered. 

OK, shit's calmed down, so I'm back on the solar.  I get a couple of bids from local electrical guys to replace the panel, all for about half of what Tesla wanted.  I pick a contractor, and get all the specs from him.  I reach out to Tesla, and say hey, I'm getting the panel replaced, and here's the panel the guy wants to install, are you guys OK with it.   Tesla says "we'll send it over to engineering and get back to you".  

A week or two later, Tesla says "yeah, panel that your electrician wants to use is A-OK".  They say when it's done, send over the city final inspection and a photo of the new panel.  

I do so.

Then, a week later, Tesla contacts me and says "sorry bud, we've cancelled the subscription plan.  Fuck me, I just dropped 4 grand on a new panel for nothing?  Anyway, they send me a new bid, and it's 2,000 down and 160/mo for 10 years at a 2.99 APR.  After that, I own the system free and clear.

Fuck it, let's go!

We sign the deal, get approved for financing in about 20 seconds, and get in line for the system.   

Maybe a month later, they call me and say that the install date is Jun 8.  

Crew shows up to do the install, and they are really solid.  4 good guys and they do a good job,  Solar is powered up that afternoon, but foreman tells me that he has to shut down the system when he leaves, pending the city final inspection, and "Permission to Operate" from the power company.   

A couple of days later, a tesla guy calls me and says hey, I've got your inspection scheduled for tomorrow.  He shows up, on time, and an hour or so later, the city inspector shows up and signs off. 

The next day, Tesla says "hey, per the contact, you now owe the down payment since you passed inspection".  Fine.  I immediately log in and make the down payment with ACH, which is the only payment system that they have.  The next day, the money is gone from the bank account, buy my Tesla dashboard shows "payment submitted and in process".  It's now 5 days later, and my payment is still "in process" even though the money is gone from my account.  I email my project manager and ask WTF, and she says oh yeah, it takes a few days.  

Here's the rub:  they don't reach out to my utility provider and ask for "permission to operate" until the down payment is processed, so here I sit, panels on my roof and cock in my hand, buying expensive power from SDGE for who knows how much longer?

Still "payment in process".  FML.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

11 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

Still "payment in process".  FML.

Some companies don't process payments and paperwork as fast as others. You've waited a year, so take off a few days of checking the website and look at it this weekend.

[Dahobbs 17625]

12 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

Still "payment in process".  FML.

Tesla is a bit notorious for it's less than ideal customer service. Anyway, don't worry about this delay too much. You'll have a much longer delay getting final PTO. Or at least that is my experience. Center Point here in Houston was an absolute bitch to deal with.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

A 10-13 year payoff for solar panels doesn't wow me much. I would prefer to wait for the inevitable, improved solar panels that may even have a lower price-to-install. And if I'm wrong about that plan, it won't keep me up at night.

I admit that my recent switch to working from home has changed my views on electricity usage since I'm home more during the day.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Bevo 13579]

1 minute ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

A 10-13 year payoff for solar panels doesn't wow me much. I would prefer to wait for the inevitable, improved solar panels that may even have a lower price-to-install. And if I'm wrong about that plan, it won't keep me up at night.

I think by having a green build and radiant heating and cooling my mountain home will have bills much, much lower than $160 a month. There would never be a payoff for solar unless the price was lower due to needing fewer panels.

[Gil Bang 25975]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

Tesla is a bit notorious for it's less than ideal customer service. Anyway, don't worry about this delay too much. You'll have a much longer delay getting final PTO. Or at least that is my experience. Center Point here in Houston was an absolute bitch to deal with.

Just got a notification that my payment was processed.  And, my energy provider (SDGE) has a "fast-track" program for approvals.  Supposed to happen in 5 days or less. 

[Dahobbs 17625]

25 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

A 10-13 year payoff for solar panels doesn't wow me much. I would prefer to wait for the inevitable, improved solar panels that may even have a lower price-to-install. And if I'm wrong about that plan, it won't keep me up at night.

I admit that my recent switch to working from home has changed my views on electricity usage since I'm home more during the day.

Before recent supply chain issues, current panels would pay off in 7-10 years in most locations (sooner in places like California and Hawaii with really high energy prices). And that's assuming they contribute nothing to the re-sale value of the house, which isn't realistic. It isn't going to be 100% of the purchase price. But it isn't going to be zero either. Even now with the increased prices for panels, I wouldn't be surprised if the payback period ends up being similar because of increased energy prices. 

21 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I think by having a green build and radiant heating and cooling my mountain home will have bills much, much lower than $160 a month. There would never be a payoff for solar unless the price was lower due to needing fewer panels.

How much you pay for a purchased system or a leased system is going to be depend on how many panels you need. If you have a super efficient home, you wouldn't need many panels and thus wouldn't pay that much for them. But yes, if you overbuild your system, it'll negatively affect your payback period. 

[Skipper 6136]

On 6/22/2022 at 11:10 AM, Dahobbs said:

Before recent supply chain issues, current panels would pay off in 7-10 years in most locations (sooner in places like California and Hawaii with really high energy prices). And that's assuming they contribute nothing to the re-sale value of the house, which isn't realistic. It isn't going to be 100% of the purchase price. But it isn't going to be zero either. Even now with the increased prices for panels, I wouldn't be surprised if the payback period ends up being similar because of increased energy prices. 

This is kind of what I was assuming.  Priced online and it was a 12-15 year repayment which doesn't really make financial sense to me.  I figured current pricing probably atypical.  I'm interested but might check again in about 6 months.

[kibbles 70]

Our(solar company) prices went up 4% two weeks ago due to increased material cost.   

The economics of solar are favorable and will continue to become more favorable as energy costs rise.    I sell against the grid price of energy.    As that rises, I can also raise my price...but I won't.   

50% of my customers don't care about the money.

[ROFL BOX 6649]

3 hours ago, kibbles said:

Our(solar company) prices went up 4% two weeks ago due to increased material cost.   

The economics of solar are favorable and will continue to become more favorable as energy costs rise.    I sell against the grid price of energy.    As that rises, I can also raise my price...but I won't.   

50% of my customers don't care about the money.

Where is your office located?

[kibbles 70]

Plano but I do stuff wherever

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[DougO 5250]

Economics are probably not enough to make financial sense. But having battery backup power when the grids go down is going to make owners feel a lot better about it. Seems like a matter of when, not if. 

Even if you save money short term, and maybe plan on getting back your investment in a couple of decades, it seems unlikely to me that electric providers are going to keep buyback incentives up to the level that make the overall selling point look groovy, long term. They're going to fuck you, like they always do.

 

[Dahobbs 17625]

9 hours ago, DougO said:

Economics are probably not enough to make financial sense. But having battery backup power when the grids go down is going to make owners feel a lot better about it. Seems like a matter of when, not if. 

Even if you save money short term, and maybe plan on getting back your investment in a couple of decades, it seems unlikely to me that electric providers are going to keep buyback incentives up to the level that make the overall selling point look groovy, long term. They're going to fuck you, like they always do.

 

Battery backup shouldn't be looked at from a purely financial perspective. Generally, it isn't going to pay for itself directly. It is more like insurance for power outages. That said, in some situations in can make financial sense. 1) if you don't have access to net metering, 2) you have a time of use plan and a battery allows you to shift your demand to significantly lower rates, and 3) below:

In California right now Tesla just introduced its virtual power plant program which takes advantage of another program by PG&E for lowering demand during high demand periods. The owners basically get paid $2.00 per kWh that they can reduce from their average usage during these events. Normally, only big businesses that use a lot of power get to take advantage of this program, but since Tesla can control all the power walls that sign up, those individuals can participate too. It is actually a really cool program that seems like it is win-win. Utility can get demand lowered during certain periods when supply is scarce and energy is expensive and power wall owners get well compensated. I assume Tesla is getting something out of the deal, but it can't be much as the rates sent to power wall owners appears to be in line with what other businesses get. 

At $2 a kWh, a Tesla power wall would roughly pay for itself within 360 cycles of the battery, or about a tenth of its expected usage during its 10 year warrantied lifespan. That's damn return on investment.  

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/06/tesla-cleverly-bundling-its-battery-users-to-reduce-grid-demand/

Quote

 

Last week, Tesla announced a program for California-based owners of its home battery products. Sign up with the company, and you'd become part of what the company calls a "virtual power plant." You would be able to use your battery to keep the grid stable during periods of high demand and be well-compensated for the electrons.

While this may conjure images of Powerwall batteries across the state sending electricity to the grid during a crisis, that doesn't appear to be what's happening here. Instead, the batteries will be taking part in a utility's program that's designed to reduce demand, which the utility company will presumably do by using the battery to supply some of the demand inside the battery owner's house. It's a clever way for homeowners to take advantage of a program that's otherwise limited to commercial users.

* * * 

Based on Tesla's description, Powerwall owners can sign up for the program using the battery management software. Once taking part, users can set a minimum battery reserve: The software won't allow the battery to fall below that value, even if grid stabilization would benefit from additional power. Of course, if the grid fails, that reserve could end up being tapped into regardless.

* * * 

What do participants get beyond the satisfaction of helping keep the state's electric grid stable? A very good price for their electrons. Charging the battery from PG&E's grid will generally cost under $0.50 per kilowatt-hour. For each kilowatt-hour a person's battery takes off the system demands during these events, participants will be paid $2. That's a pretty substantial difference.

* *  *

What Tesla appears to be doing is aggregating the services of a large number of battery owners that, individually, wouldn't come close to being able to drop demand by that much. And, given the involvement of batteries, it's presumably reducing demand by using the battery to supply some of the homes' energy needs. Put differently, it's pooling a whole bunch of individual homes and getting them to act as a single large facility that has reduced its demand.

The striking thing here is that Tesla's apparently passing on all of the money it will receive from PG&E directly to its battery users without taking a fee itself. There's a chance that the company negotiated a variant of the Emergency Load Reduction Program agreement with PG&E, and we've reached out to Tesla to find out. But the fact that the details line up so well suggests that any differences are minimal.

 

 

[kibbles 70]

2 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Battery backup shouldn't be looked at from a purely financial perspective. Generally, it isn't going to pay for itself directly. It is more like insurance for power outages. That said, in some situations in can make financial sense. 1) if you don't have access to net metering, 2) you have a time of use plan and a battery allows you to shift your demand to significantly lower rates, and 3) below:

In California right now Tesla just introduced its virtual power plant program which takes advantage of another program by PG&E for lowering demand during high demand periods. The owners basically get paid $2.00 per kWh that they can reduce from their average usage during these events. Normally, only big businesses that use a lot of power get to take advantage of this program, but since Tesla can control all the power walls that sign up, those individuals can participate too. It is actually a really cool program that seems like it is win-win. Utility can get demand lowered during certain periods when supply is scarce and energy is expensive and power wall owners get well compensated. I assume Tesla is getting something out of the deal, but it can't be much as the rates sent to power wall owners appears to be in line with what other businesses get. 

At $2 a kWh, a Tesla power wall would roughly pay for itself within 360 cycles of the battery, or about a tenth of its expected usage during its 10 year warrantied lifespan. That's damn return on investment.  

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/06/tesla-cleverly-bundling-its-battery-users-to-reduce-grid-demand/

 

this is all true.  if you don't think that the economics of solar make sense, you just do not understand it.   

[DougO 5250]

That's basically what I'm saying, not trying to be pro or con. If the goal is to save money, it's probably not worth it. There are better reasons to make the investment, whether it is concern for environment or a certain level of insurance of power stability in questionable times that may become increasingly challenging. If you can afford the up front investment, the future savings on bills can be an added bonus.

 

[Hefeweizen 5328]

I’m getting into this through a house purchase.  System installed in 2015, 4.5 kW.  House has no a/c because temperatures are mild year round.  System is owned free and clear, but limited by the inverter.  I talked to the original installer and his advice seems  sound, which is to wait a year and see what the PG&E credit looks like and then decide on an upgrade to panels and inverter.  He was pretty negative on the batteries from an economic standpoint, so I’m looking to better understand that aspect.  Any good primers for Solar?

[MonkeyDoughnut 10311]

Regulations will change in the next few years too regarding home solar because of its increased adoption. It's basically allowed "wealthier" (relatively) people to push their share of the electrical grid infrastructure costs onto non-solar (less wealthy) people.  At some point there won't be enough people paying for general infrastructure costs unless they adopt a monthly connection charge like NEM3 is trying to do in California ($60-90 a month).  The other option is you have to get off their grid completely... you can't use it like a backup plan/alternative without paying a surcharge to do so.

[Gil Bang 25975]

I'm solar powered as of yesterday!   Tesla system, no battery. 

We installed 6/8, got final 6/12, and received "Permission to Operate" from the utility yesterday afternoon.  

Now, I'm trying to figure out the economics of running shit at different times.  We have a "Time of Use" plan, and electricity rates go up when shit's expensive.  The cheapest rates are very early in the morning.  2-5 AM IIRC.  So, take my pool pump for example.  Do I run that in the middle of the day, when the sun is shining, or continue to run it in the early morning?

[Dahobbs 17625]

10 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Regulations will change in the next few years too regarding home solar because of its increased adoption. It's basically allowed "wealthier" (relatively) people to push their share of the electrical grid infrastructure costs onto non-solar (less wealthy) people.  At some point there won't be enough people paying for general infrastructure costs unless they adopt a monthly connection charge like NEM3 is trying to do in California ($60-90 a month).  The other option is you have to get off their grid completely... you can't use it like a backup plan/alternative without paying a surcharge to do so.

A $15 a month would probably be reasonable. Or, tying the connection cost to the amount actually withdrawn from the grid. Anything else is nonsense. $60-$90 a month is complete nonsense. It's just like the laws charging electric car owners more in registration fees than the average ICE driver pays in gas taxes, protectionist bullshit. 

[Dahobbs 17625]

2 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

I'm solar powered as of yesterday!   Tesla system, no battery. 

We installed 6/8, got final 6/12, and received "Permission to Operate" from the utility yesterday afternoon.  

Now, I'm trying to figure out the economics of running shit at different times.  We have a "Time of Use" plan, and electricity rates go up when shit's expensive.  The cheapest rates are very early in the morning.  2-5 AM IIRC.  So, take my pool pump for example.  Do I run that in the middle of the day, when the sun is shining, or continue to run it in the early morning?

Do you have a buyback arrangement or net metering? 

[Gil Bang 25975]

13 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Do you have a buyback arrangement or net metering? 

Net metering.

[Dahobbs 17625]

7 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Net metering.

I'm not quite sure how net metering works with a TOU plan. Does the amount your netted depends on when you export to the grid? 

Without a battery, I would probably schedule regular stuff like a pool for those periods with the cheapest energy regardless of production. You don't want to be hit with a huge bill because it rained during the day for like a week. 

[Upgrayedd 5815]

24 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

I'm solar powered as of yesterday!   Tesla system, no battery. 

We installed 6/8, got final 6/12, and received "Permission to Operate" from the utility yesterday afternoon.  

Now, I'm trying to figure out the economics of running shit at different times.  We have a "Time of Use" plan, and electricity rates go up when shit's expensive.  The cheapest rates are very early in the morning.  2-5 AM IIRC.  So, take my pool pump for example.  Do I run that in the middle of the day, when the sun is shining, or continue to run it in the early morning?

Nice.  I'm on the home stretch of inking a deal.

I don't have a lot of SF and we are pretty frugal with the T-stat (mile from OB, so a bit cooler).  Our overall annual usage is +/- 7,200 kWh and I am struggling with upsizing to 18 panels 11,000 kWh production (allows more heat-pump usage and future elect car) or match my current usage (12 panels) or somewhere in between.  Even with the larger system, should be $100 less per month with net metering (as long as that doesn't go away with NEM 3, which I am betting we get grandfathered in).

SDGE ain't cutting me a check for the net power I supply to the grid, so I guess that's my hang-up.  

 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10311]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

A $15 a month would probably be reasonable. Or, tying the connection cost to the amount actually withdrawn from the grid. Anything else is nonsense. $60-$90 a month is complete nonsense. It's just like the laws charging electric car owners more in registration fees than the average ICE driver pays in gas taxes, protectionist bullshit. 

The problem is the amount of electricity withdrawn from the grid doesn't cover the fixed expense of being able to do that. That's baked into electric rates now but needs to be separated out. It's really only a few cents to generate the electricity but many cents to actually be able to deliver it.

It's like renting a car where solar customers only pay for miles driven and non solar pay that plus for actually purchasing and maintaining the car (on top of already subsidizing solar customers initially).

[Gil Bang 25975]

Tesla was drastically cheaper than everybody else we called

[UT_OB1 2224]

How do you compare solar panels?  Surely it is more than just $/w. How big of a difference is a 375 vs 395 w panel?  I also because I’ve see the smaller selling quite a bit lower than the 395

 

Ive read Canadian Solar is a good product. For those that know, does this seem like a good deal 33x395 w panels for $8700  They advertise as 0.673/w but I’d think there’d be more to compare  

Does anyone know where to get them in bulk for better price?

Assuming the eBay listing isn’t a scam, are these better per price?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374020147352?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=qAzJoAbnSDm&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Edited July 19, 2022 by UT_OB1

[Dahobbs 17625]

13 hours ago, UT_OB1 said:

How do you compare solar panels?  Surely it is more than just $/w. How big of a difference is a 375 vs 395 w panel?  I also because I’ve see the smaller selling quite a bit lower than the 395

 

Ive read Canadian Solar is a good product. For those that know, does this seem like a good deal 33x395 w panels for $8700  They advertise as 0.673/w but I’d think there’d be more to compare  

Does anyone know where to get them in bulk for better price?

Assuming the eBay listing isn’t a scam, are these better per price?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374020147352?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=qAzJoAbnSDm&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

$/w, warranties, and panel rating depending on your space constraints. You don't necessarily need higher-watt rated panels if you have room to have a larger number of lower rated panels. You could also look at things like impact resistance, though I think the panels you would buy through any reputable installer would be fine in that regard. Panels themselves are pretty simple. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

On 6/30/2022 at 12:50 PM, Gil Bang said:

Tesla system, no battery.

How did you do that? It adds one to my configuration each time I try to build a system on their website.  

I've got to be doing something wrong because holy shitballs the payback is more than 13 years on the system it suggests for me, even without the power walls.   I'm OK if the economics don't work out 100%, but it's showing me a rather large delta.  We plan to be in the house for awhile, but not married to it. 

[Dahobbs 17625]

46 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

How did you do that? It adds one to my configuration each time I try to build a system on their website.  

I've got to be doing something wrong because holy shitballs the payback is more than 13 years on the system it suggests for me, even without the power walls.   I'm OK if the economics don't work out 100%, but it's showing me a rather large delta.  We plan to be in the house for awhile, but not married to it. 

Tesla no longer does installs without powerwall (presumably due to demand). You'll either need to go through a separate Tesla certified dealer if you want a tesla system or just price it with a different installer. 13 years sounds like a long pay off period to what you should be getting, but it may be related to recent increases in prices due to supply chain issues. I haven't priced things out in a couple of years. 

[Gil Bang 25975]

We were installed by, and contracted with, Tesla.  However, it's a long story.  We originally had the "subscription" but they pulled the rug out from under me on that before installation.   I went over it all upthread somewhere. 

[luke duke 6413]

Plano but I do stuff wherever

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Any big Surly discount?

[ChickenSandwich 9843]

 

 

Sam Vanderhoof, a solar industry expert and chief executive of Recycle PV Solar, says that only 1 in 10 panels are actually recycled, according to estimates drawn from International Renewable Energy Agency data on decommissioned panels and from industry leaders.

“The industry is supposed to be green,” Vanderhoof said. “But in reality, it’s all about the money.”

California came early to solar power. Small governmental rebates did little to bring down the price of solar panels or to encourage their adoption until 2006, when the California Public Utilities Commission formed the California Solar Initiative. That granted $3.3 billion in subsidies for installing solar panels on rooftops.

Although 80% of a typical photovoltaic panel is made of recyclable materials, disassembling them and recovering the glass, silver and silicon is extremely difficult.

Only about $2 to $4 worth of materials are recovered from each panel. 

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory estimated that it costs roughly $20 to $30 to recycle a panel versus $1 to $2 to send it to a landfill.

California landfills are filling up with toxic solar panels - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by ChickenSandwich

[troph 24870]

just funded our system. should be installed soon. expect to move in to the house within the next 90-120 days.  16kW system with 28kWh total battery storage with two tesla powerwalls.  our roof has enough southern exposure to nearly double if we ever needed it, but we doubt it will be needed. we nixed a generac in favor of the powerwalls.  goal is to be off grid 99.9% of the time.  we are ICF construction so super insulated but 5000 sq ft and with a lot of windows, but 90% of the windows are east facing. but I like to run the AC with the doors open too. sue me. 1 pool, 2 electric vehicles planned, too many appliances (including an entire water system, pump and filtration for our rain water collection), 9 mini-split ACs (instead of 2 traditional HVACs) which should make for more efficiency. hard to know what to expect could be over powered, could be right sized.  company said 12kW would be standard full system, add 1kW for the pool and 2kW for current EV (not a second one) and you're at 15kW.  Excess will power the batteries which we will use at night on normal days.  the goal is to give the middle finger to the grid, and to reduce our day to day direct carbon foot print to near zero.  we do have 2 gas cars but I work from home so my EV is our primary driver, our secondary car gets about 15,000 miles per year mostly road trips.  I have an F350 for camping and fishing but it drives 6000 miles a year max. we have a gas powered boat too. air travel is about all that remains after that at this point and any ancillary stuff we cause like amazon deliveries which we will start to focus on soon.  but next up is to eliminate single use plastic in our home... we are trying.

our total bill will come in at $308 per month, .99% for 25 years. we may add an additional warranty on the powerwalls which come with 15 years. so that's the only part that doesn't make sense to me the loan and expected useful life of the batteries are not matched. the panels are warrantied for the life of the loan, parts and labor. we don't expect to move for 20+ years.  this is the one.

the batteries are for peace of mind on many levels, the politics of energy for one, the cost of it for two and climate for three. I'll pay $1000-2500 per year for 25 years as a premium for that peace of mind if the money doesn't make sense.

Edited July 19, 2022 by troph

[HOOKEM4 5038]

52 minutes ago, troph said:

just funded our system. should be installed soon. expect to move in to the house within the next 90-120 days.  16kW system with 28kWh total battery storage with two tesla powerwalls.  our roof has enough southern exposure to nearly double if we ever needed it, but we doubt it will be needed. we nixed a generac in favor of the powerwalls.  goal is to be off grid 99.9% of the time.  we are ICF construction so super insulated but 5000 sq ft and with a lot of windows, but 90% of the windows are east facing. but I like to run the AC with the doors open too. sue me. 1 pool, 2 electric vehicles planned, too many appliances (including an entire water system, pump and filtration for our rain water collection), 9 mini-split ACs (instead of 2 traditional HVACs) which should make for more efficiency. hard to know what to expect could be over powered, could be right sized.  company said 12kW would be standard full system, add 1kW for the pool and 2kW for current EV (not a second one) and you're at 15kW.  Excess will power the batteries which we will use at night on normal days.  the goal is to give the middle finger to the grid, and to reduce our day to day direct carbon foot print to near zero.  we do have 2 gas cars but I work from home so my EV is our primary driver, our secondary car gets about 15,000 miles per year mostly road trips.  I have an F350 for camping and fishing but it drives 6000 miles a year max. we have a gas powered boat too. air travel is about all that remains after that at this point and any ancillary stuff we cause like amazon deliveries which we will start to focus on soon.  but next up is to eliminate single use plastic in our home... we are trying.

our total bill will come in at $308 per month, .99% for 25 years. we may add an additional warranty on the powerwalls which come with 15 years. so that's the only part that doesn't make sense to me the loan and expected useful life of the batteries are not matched. the panels are warrantied for the life of the loan, parts and labor. we don't expect to move for 20+ years.  this is the one.

the batteries are for peace of mind on many levels, the politics of energy for one, the cost of it for two and climate for three. I'll pay $1000-2500 per year for 25 years as a premium for that peace of mind if the money doesn't make sense.

Love the plan. Not throwing shade but truly want to know, did you consider geothermal? It is intriguing. I built an addition and installed a mini split that kicks so much ass. Direct applied temp on demand only when needed is the answer.

Edited July 19, 2022 by HOOKEM4

[troph 24870]

9 minutes ago, HOOKEM4 said:

Love the plan. Not throwing shade but truly want to know, did you consider geothermal? It is intriguing.

shade might be warranted I dunno, hoping we aren't oversized and selling back to the grid all the time at a nickel a kw or what ever PEC pays (it's shit I know that).  Truth be told, our solar company is good to work with and with a contractor for a wife this should be easy, but it is hard to figure it all out.  geothermal seemed next level so no we did not look into it much, though I vaguely remember her asking if we wanted to consider, and I vaguely remember her coming to a no conclusion but I don't know why. part of the whole process for everyone here is for mass adoption so that market forces can make it easier for everyone.  Tesla did that for EVs and while solar is quite mature for consumers now (part of why we went with it) batteries are not, so we are hoping we add one little push to the collective on battery technology and use.  I also don't know much about geothermal but we don't have a large lot and septic takes up a ton of the ground space if ground space is needed, I also wasn't sure if roof top was required and while solar does have a look, it's a look we all know.  I just don't know much about geothermal.

Edited July 19, 2022 by troph

[troph 24870]

15 minutes ago, HOOKEM4 said:

Love the plan. Not throwing shade but truly want to know, did you consider geothermal? It is intriguing. I built an addition and installed a mini split that kicks so much ass. Direct applied temp on demand only when needed is the answer.

I’m pretty excited about the mini splits, they are either ducted or cartridges in the ceiling not wall mount so they don’t appear any different than traditional units when they are done. I can’t wait to see them in action. 

[HOOKEM4 5038]

I *think* geothermal can be drilled beneath or very close to the house. Just wondering. I really need to look into it as I don't know shit about it either.

Team minisplit as well. Kickass that you are spending the coin to do it right. 

[troph 24870]

Really need more adoption because almost no one services them. It’s getting better we need more adoption. 

[Hozz 1017]

San Antonio here.  I went to Tesla's site and they don't directly serve my address but they referred me to PEG Energy...very appropriately named for Surly.

Anyway, they came back with an online quote for my home based on the past 12 months of CPS electrical usage data I sent them.  It was for a 11.6kW panel system, no powerwall.  27.5 after the 30% tax credit and $2500 CPS rebate.  They offer 12 year/0%, 20 year/1%, or 25Y/2%.  They provide some questionable math that shows saving around 24K in 25 years if energy costs go up 2% a year.  Adding 2 powerwalls to the design completely blows up the numbers.  Cost after incentives goes to 51K and change.

Looking through this thread, this seems high.  Does anyone have any recs for San Antonio installers?

[Gil Bang 25975]

you can go to energysage.com and they will send you a dozen quotes.   All of them were about 20-35% higher than Tesla for me. 

[Dahobbs 17625]

6 hours ago, Hozz said:

San Antonio here.  I went to Tesla's site and they don't directly serve my address but they referred me to PEG Energy...very appropriately named for Surly.

Anyway, they came back with an online quote for my home based on the past 12 months of CPS electrical usage data I sent them.  It was for a 11.6kW panel system, no powerwall.  27.5 after the 30% tax credit and $2500 CPS rebate.  They offer 12 year/0%, 20 year/1%, or 25Y/2%.  They provide some questionable math that shows saving around 24K in 25 years if energy costs go up 2% a year.  Adding 2 powerwalls to the design completely blows up the numbers.  Cost after incentives goes to 51K and change.

Looking through this thread, this seems high.  Does anyone have any recs for San Antonio installers?

My advice, don't finance through the solar companies. Get cash bids. In general, you'll find them to be 20% lower. If you need financing, do it through a separate financial institution (e.g., as part of a refi). 

As to batteries, it is best to think of them as a separate purchase. They aren't going to pay for themselves most likely (absent a few locations where you need them to shift to lower night time rates). They are quasi insurance, quasi consumable goods your purchase for the peace of mind. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Dahobbs

[troph 24870]

Solar / powerwalls and the tesla app finally online and operational: solar with batteries is the tits. Carbon neutral today bitches. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by troph

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

I’ve looked into this multiple times and just can’t make it work. A lot of favorable roof space, but I have gas heat and water. The solar guys show up and swear I’ll be better off but then I break out the usage spreadsheets and they squint and frown and tap-tap-tap on their iPads and say, “I’ll do some research and text you the numbers.”

I’d do it if I could even ballpark break even all-in, but it seems unlikely any time soon. I doubt even an EV would tip the scales.

Is the cost of solar going to come down to make this viable, even with tax credits (which is another level of complication), or are power prices going to be the change that makes this a reasonable option?

[Gil Bang 25975]

53 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

I’ve looked into this multiple times and just can’t make it work. A lot of favorable roof space, but I have gas heat and water. The solar guys show up and swear I’ll be better off but then I break out the usage spreadsheets and they squint and frown and tap-tap-tap on their iPads and say, “I’ll do some research and text you the numbers.”

I’d do it if I could even ballpark break even all-in, but it seems unlikely any time soon. I doubt even an EV would tip the scales.

Is the cost of solar going to come down to make this viable, even with tax credits (which is another level of complication), or are power prices going to be the change that makes this a reasonable option?

At some point you will need to replace your WH and HVAC.  At that point, if you go electric it will probably make more sense. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

3 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

At some point you will need to replace your WH and HVAC.  At that point, if you go electric it will probably make more sense. 

Just replaced the HVAC five years ago. Wouldn’t switch to electric, anyway. I’ll have to get by without the panels for a while, it seems. 

And, like a dumbass, I didn’t run gas to the cooktop when I built the house, so I’ll be adding that at some point, though the oven will still be electric. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Doc Daneeka

[Gil Bang 25975]

6 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Just replaced the HVAC five years ago. Wouldn’t switch to electric, anyway. I’ll have to get by without the panels for a while, it seems. 

And, like a dumbass, I didn’t run gas to the cooktop when I built the house, so I’ll be adding that at some point, though the oven will still be electric. 

Heat pumps are pretty good these days.

[UT_OB1 2224]

17 hours ago, troph said:

Solar / powerwalls and the tesla app finally online and operational: solar with batteries is the tits. Carbon neutral today bitches. 

If i remember correctly, wasn’t your home icf?  Did you do the math on initial extra carbon to use the concrete vs traditional stick build, and how long you’d have to “operate” with higher efficiency heating/cooling to break even on carbon there as well?

[Viper 12109]

I've had vivint come out like 3 times trying to do solar. they wanted to do a loan that I'd pay off instead of paying the electricity bill, but looking at the numbers the loan was costing an extra $10K or so compared to just paying for it. Once I told them I didn't want to do a loan, they stopped asking me, so it seems like they're just using solar to get into the loan financing business.

I wouldn't mind solar, but I have a gas heater and stove so don't have a super high electricity bill, and I'm never sure what company to trust to stick around for any warranty. Would it be worth it to do on a 10-15 year old roof?

[troph 24870]

1 hour ago, UT_OB1 said:

If i remember correctly, wasn’t your home icf?  Did you do the math on initial extra carbon to use the concrete vs traditional stick build, and how long you’d have to “operate” with higher efficiency heating/cooling to break even on carbon there as well?

I was told there would be no math.  
 

I wouldn’t know how to do that. The start up costs on any construction and Lithium batteries (car and two power walls) is undoubtedly high.  And for us it’s as much the trucks and machinery to dig out the site from the side of the hill/cliff that made it even more problematic.