The death of the mainstream

[Goredho 17346]

I was getting high last night and started thinking about how much we’ve lost faith in mainstream ideas and institutions. Some of this erosion of faith is valid, some not.  Some of it is manufactured where it might not exist otherwise. Collectively, the following statements could probably be considered a mainstream American point of view, but all of us probably disagree with some of them and I think more and more people are disagreeing with more and more of them over time.

• The government serves the best interest of its people
• The police protect the community and keep it safe
• Practicing religion is a virtue
• We are a melting pot of races and ethnicities and are better for it
• Warnings emerging from scientific analysis (climate change) should be heeded
• Vaccination protect children from sickness and death
• Strong public education is in society’s best interests
• There is enough for us all to be happy and prosper
• People on the opposite end of the political spectrum from me have a valuable role to play in our shared future

That list is incomplete, and others can add to it if they want.  But I’m curious what happens in the future on our present course, where we are almost wholly fractured groups completely separated by our different disbeliefs vs united through some sort of shared beliefs in mainstream ideas and institutions?  Is there a way to re-establish that faith? Or does it all have to be torn down with something new to rise in its place?

Feel free to tell me to "stfu, stoner."

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

for a lot of those:  it's a product of the US slowly losing its place as the shining city on the hill.  when it was unquestioned, it's easy to assume whatever we were doing was the best.  majority=good.  order=good.  status quo=good.  now you have wealth inequality, lack of economic opportunity, population crunches.  things get questioned.

as for 'melting pot = good', I doubt that was ever a majority opinion.  it was just something people that wrote textbooks would pay lip service to.  i don't think we need to catalog how every new group over the last 150 years was considered a plague on the pristine population that was here.

[Fudge Nuggets 19150]

I agree with #'s 4-8.  Now, with respect to #8 I believe there is plenty for everyone to be happy and prosper but most of it is being hoarded by the few.

[Parliament 14133]

I agree with most of them, and yet I consider myself a right-wing pissbagger.

[Goredho 17346]

Thanks for the replies.  If these are then numbered:
 

1. The government serves the best interest of its people
2. The police protect the community and keep it safe
3. Practicing religion is a virtue
4. We are a melting pot of races and ethnicities and are better for it
5. Warnings emerging from scientific analysis (climate change) should be heeded
6. Vaccination protect children from sickness and death
7. Strong public education is in society’s best interests
8. There is enough for us all to be happy and prosper
9. People on the opposite end of the political spectrum from me have a valuable role to play in our shared future

 

My feelings are:

#1) Starting to disagree.  I don't believe the government running some cornerstone of our society (say healthcare) is inherently bad or doomed to failure.  I believe the Federal government enforcing something like desegregation is right and good.  And I believe previous iterations of the federal government (both parties) tried to do what they thought was best for America as a whole.  But now under Trump, I think there is no consideration outside of the core constituency. 
#2) Disagree.  True in my neighborhood does not offset all the events documented in other areas.
#3) Agree.  Not a believer myself, but I think more good comes out of religion than bad at least in this country.  Again, the Trump era gives me pause, as they are a core component of his base.
#4) Agree.  At least in my lifetime and circles of socialization, this was true.
#5) Agree.
#6) Agree.
#7) Agree.  Public education as an institution should not be defunded or otherwise degraded through vouchers, etc...
#8) Disagree.  If no guardrails are put in place, it just pools at the top and the middle class evaporates.
#9) Starting to disagree, again in the Trump era.  I believe there needs to be fiscal conservatism and an ideology of self-reliance helping to shape our future, but I think they either don't exist or are far outweighed by philosophies and methods that are vile.

[Brisketexan 104597]

• The government serves the best interest of its people

Believe it or not, this is generally true.  Especially when you realize that the government is not just the folks you see in DC.  It's all of your local governments -- your city councils, county commissioners, school boards, water districts, etc.  Those folks are almost all made up of your friends and neighbors, and they're trying to do right by the mission and obligations of the entity.  They don't always get it right, but almost always, they're really trying.  Now, as you get higher up, AND as you get wrapped up in ridiculous ideological shit as opposed to simple governance, then it's about serving special interests, making public statements/displays to get re-elected, etc.

Summary: when folks are talking about your water system, or your schools, or your roads, they are trying to serve the best interest of the people.  When they're talking about hot-button social issues, they aren't.

• The police protect the community and keep it safe

This can be true....and the opposite can be true, both at the same time.  Police presence and sound community policing unquestionably reduces crime.  But it's also beyond debate that PDs have a long history of racist enforcement and culture, and more recently, needlessly militaristic and antagonistic policing approaches.  I don't trust the police.  But I believe that I should be able to.  Some PDs are working to earn that trust back.  More should follow their model.

• Practicing religion is a virtue

As someone steeped in a religious education, and married to a pastor....it pains me to say that I no longer agree with this.  Again, not that it SHOULDN'T be true....but today, and I now realize, through most of history, religion has just been used by folks as a cudgel and shield for their own abhorrent personal beliefs and desires.  If I saw more folks fighting the power so that they could live out the Gospels and simple commandments like love your fellow man, etc.....as opposed to using "religion" as a weapon to enforce their pre-existing, selfish beliefs, I might feel differently.  I don't hate religion.  But I hate what people do with it, and I just don't see evidence that it can be saved.

• We are a melting pot of races and ethnicities and are better for it

100%.  Our history bears that out.  Our pool of nobel laureates bears that out, etc.  But as a society, we've never really believed this.  We just move on to hating the new minority group du jour.  It used to be the Chinese, the Italians, the Irish.  Jews are always popular to hate/blame.  In the 70s, we decided to hate the Vietnamese refugees.  In recent decades, we decided to hate middle eastern people.  And of course, we hispanics have a steady spot in the rotation, along with black folks.  We are a hateful society, founded on racism, steeped in racism, and we wallow in it over and over, at the same time completely denying it as a truth.  This statement is true.  But we have never actually believed it.

• Warnings emerging from scientific analysis (climate change) should be heeded

Also true, but the dissent on this is nothing new.  Populist know-nothingism is part of our national DNA.

• Vaccination protect children from sickness and death

Also true, but see the comment above.

• Strong public education is in society’s best interests

Well, it was never fully true -- we were never really interested in educating black folks.  But it's gotten even worse, and that's because of the rise of the God of Individualism.  How dare you take any of MY money to help someone else -- that's stealing!  Taxation is theft!  It's the biggest goddamned lie and folly.  The folks who claim "taxation is theft!" are almost always also "strong law and order" types.  So they're quite happy to spend $500,000 incarcerating someone instead of spending $50,000 to educate him.  This SHOULD be an issue on which all spots on the political spectrum agree -- particularly in the changing world, human beings are our greatest capital asset.  We should enhance their value, which enhances the value of our entire national enterprise.  But nope, there is only one master to be served - ME.  And there is only one time to serve him -- RIGHT NOW.  Nevermind a future, populated by other people.

• There is enough for us all to be happy and prosper

Of course there is.  But see the God of Me above.  We don't LET there be "enough for us all."  We treat the universe and all in it as a zero-sum game.  And when we do so, it obliges us.

• People on the opposite end of the political spectrum from me have a valuable role to play in our shared future

I used to think this.  I was wrong.  I don't know if it's because of what they believe, or because of the actions they take and support BECAUSE of what they believe, but I guess the distinction doesn't matter.  Our core belief should be a belief in the good of the Commonwealth while balancing respect and preservation of the rights of the individual.  For fuck's sake, it's our opening statement: 

1 in Order to form a more perfect Union,

2 establish Justice,

3 insure domestic Tranquility,

4 provide for the common defence,

5 promote the general Welfare, and

6 secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

A union.  To provide for common good.  To secure the blessings of liberty.  Not just for now, but for the future.  Do we believe in those things?  Well, we said we did.  But actions speak louder than words on 230 year old parchment.  We are supposed to strike a proper balance between the common good and individual liberty.  The extremes speak to neither, and that leaves us with a government at the top that is run by a cadre that simply allows itself to be played in the interest of maintaining power.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Brisketexan

[workswithseed 2036]

1: I don't agree, from enslavement to Jim Crow. Hell the mayor here Oregon doesn't let cops arrest people stopping traffic since they were on the same political slant. They don't serve us all, they serve themselves.

2: I disagree as well for the same reason as you.

3: I agree with this.

4: I was told we were more of a stew, and that feels kinda more accurate.

5: True, but also with a grain of salt. I believe that scientist are right that we should do better with wast materials, and keeping acidity in our oceans low. But how they say we should do it is a whole other thing.

6: yes.

7: yes.

8: yeah, but that doesn't mean you have enough.

9: I don't agree with Democrats, but I do believe that they are good.

[F250 28682]

Nice post. I believe you are onto something but I don't see it as mainstream ideas as much as a moving away from a belief in the traditional American civic faith and support of it's institutions and ideals. The United States was more communitarian in the 20th century when the people were sold on the idea that we were a transcendent nation and we were fighting for Western Liberal Democracy against the tyranny of the Soviet Union.

A strong belief in American Exceptionalism still exists but it does seem that our idealism has slowly turned towards realism if not simple pessimism (Brisket) and we have become more skeptical of our own institutions and ideals. Although there is a good reason to be skeptical, a lot of people people got the shit end of the stick during the "good times."

 

[Goredho 17346]

At one time I would have answered yes to everything on my list.  Some of those answers may have been ignorant and naive (i.e. the scope of police brutality against minorities in inner cities is now visible to anyone willing to look).  Now I’m close to disagreeing with half those statements.

So I am “less mainstream” and I think this is a general trend.  Others answers here citing changes in beliefs allude to that.  Where there once seemed to be a bell curve with mainstream believers occupying the center, it’s flattening or even inverting to become a trench with most of us being driven outside of the mainstream as believability of its ideas and institutions become strained.

[Goredho 17346]

10 minutes ago, F250 said:

Nice post. I believe you are onto something but I don't see it as mainstream ideas as much as a moving away from a belief in the traditional American civic faith and support of it's institutions and ideals. The United States was more communitarian in the 20th century when the people were sold on the idea that we were a transcendent nation and we were fighting for Western Liberal Democracy against the tyranny of the Soviet Union.

A strong belief in American Exceptionalism still exists but it does seem that our idealism has slowly turned towards realism if not simple pessimism (Brisket) and we have become more skeptical of our own institutions and ideals. Although there is a good reason to be skeptical, a lot of people people got the shit end of the stick during the "good times."

 

Yeah, not sure terms I’ve used to identify what I am describing are accurate.  Again was high as a fucking kite while thinking through this.  Just seems like all of us collectively are losing faith in what we are.  What exactly we are losing faith in may vary between groups, but it all adds up to a loss of faith in the ideas and institutions that make us a “We the people...”

[Continental Op 3934]

1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

5: True, but also with a grain of salt. I believe that scientist are right that we should do better with wast materials, and keeping acidity in our oceans low. But how they say we should do it is a whole other thing.

 

Could you enlighten us as to what you think Scientist should be telling us to do with wast materials since apparently you know better than them?  

[workswithseed 2036]

45 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

Could you enlighten us as to what you think Scientist should be telling us to do with wast materials since apparently you know better than them?  

And Teamtrees and less overarching hand of the government. 

 

[Zavala 1384]

They did it to themselves, getting caught with fake news until nobody trusts them.

[Brisketexan 104597]

1 minute ago, Zavala said:

They did it to themselves, getting caught with fake news until nobody trusts them.....so folks just completely make shit up to satisfy their preconceived notions.

You left out the really, really, really important part.

See, instead of reviewing reporting with a discerning and thoughtful eye, realizing that perfectly unbiased reporting is impossible so long as human beings are doing the reporting, we've simply opted for a path of "so, after determining that some element of reporting in any source was suspect, I chose to base my beliefs on sources that just tell me what I want to hear."

I mean, you COULD just look to several sources that you know occupy different places on the spectrum, and use those to traingulate yourself to understanding what's likely close to the truth:

 

Nope.  Can't do that.  Instead, we just decide "everything is fake, so I'll just go with the story from the bottom of that chart, because I like that kind of magical unicorn."

It's the fucking height of stupidity.  But, we're the Mount Everest of stupid people, so I guess we should have expected this.

[TwiceHorn 31269]

My theory is this.  When the dominant mode of interpersonal conversation was actually in-person, the rule was "don't discuss politics or religion."  So you only brought up those topics with company you knew you could have a civil conversation with on those topics.

Now that the dominant mode of interpersonal communication is anonymously, via the internet, the gloves are off, people feel free to spew whatever shit is floating at the top of their sewer of a mind, and there's no need to either listen or fear a beatdown or even real scorn for having or voicing abhorrent opinions and ideas.

Then you add in that people begin to seek like-minded others, and you get the echo chamber and Dunning-Kruger and it's just a complete shit show.

It's too easy to retreat from middle ground.  Hell, there is no middle ground; no one even gets out of their own trench anymore.

I think the surl is mostly right-minded on most things.  Mostly.  But the echo-chamber can be a little disturbing, as is the quashing of dissent (some of which deserves quashing, some of which doesn't).

None of this is new or original, but it bears repeating.

Edited November 4, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[F250 28682]

The politicization of science is definitely a symptom of the problem Gordeho brings up in the OP. You would think something as objective as science could be rationally discussed but it isn't even though it shouldn't be a very controversial subject. I get that it's actually the policy based on the scientific research that generates the controversy but even that can be handled rationally through a pragmatic cost benefit approach. Things have become so controversial that we no longer argue over the solution but instead argue over the validity of scientific research that indicates we have a problem.

[EMAWesome 101]

5 hours ago, Goredho said:

The government serves the best interest of its people

 

Only when the people are holding the government's feet to the fire.  When left unchecked and unmonitored government serves the best interest of government. 

[David Dennison 18655]

1 minute ago, EMAWesome said:

Only when the people are holding the government's feet to the fire.  When left unchecked and unmonitored government serves the best interest of government. 

Ironical.

[JimmyJames 12271]

I became skeptical of this country the day that trump got elected president. 

I now believe that election was stolen by criminals and Russians. So I once again have faith. 

[F250 28682]

3 hours ago, F250 said:

Nice post. I believe you are onto something but I don't see it as mainstream ideas as much as a moving away from a belief in the traditional American civic faith and support of it's institutions and ideals. The United States was more communitarian in the 20th century when the people were sold on the idea that we were a transcendent nation and we were fighting for Western Liberal Democracy against the tyranny of the Soviet Union.

A strong belief in American Exceptionalism still exists but it does seem that our idealism has slowly turned towards realism if not simple pessimism (Brisket) and we have become more skeptical of our own institutions and ideals. Although there is a good reason to be skeptical, a lot of people people got the shit end of the stick during the "good times."

 

Just throwing in this article on the loss of our civil religion.

https://religionandpolitics.org/2017/09/26/losing-our-civil-religion/

[EMAWesome 101]

6 hours ago, Goredho said:

 

• We are a melting pot of races and ethnicities and are better for it

We are but not because we are a melting pot of races and ethnicities.  We are because we are a melting pot of races and ethnicities who have all found some kind of common ground with each other and generally for the most part have found ways to coexist with other.  It's not diversity just for the sake of diversity.  It is diversity that has found reasons and motivations to help and cooperate with each other.  There are a lot of diverse countries in the Balkans, the Middle East, and the rest of Asia and diversity doesn't seem to do jack shit over there.

[TwiceHorn 31269]

On an NPR story I heard, that was noodling around the topic of the success of socialistic programs in Scandinavian countries, there was a statistic that the large majority of Scandinavians trust one another.  Fewer than half of Americans trust each other.

So that's some actual data supporting F250's point about communitarianism.

I think urbanization and technology have made Americans more aware of the "otherness" of other Americans, both in terms of their differing ethnicity or other differences, but in fearing them and creating negative stereotypes.

[Brisketexan 104597]

4 minutes ago, F250 said:

Just throwing in this article on the loss of our civil religion.

https://religionandpolitics.org/2017/09/26/losing-our-civil-religion/

Excellent citation.

And utterly depressing.  There's no question that what we presently have is a disease -- that is, a condition that takes us from what allows us to be healthy and make progress.  The only question is whether we can survive it.

You know my take on that.....

[tantric superman 4667]

My theory is this:  We meskins have been allowed to sap and impurify all of your precious bodily fluids.

[EMAWesome 101]

33 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You left out the really, really, really important part.

See, instead of reviewing reporting with a discerning and thoughtful eye, realizing that perfectly unbiased reporting is impossible so long as human beings are doing the reporting, we've simply opted for a path of "so, after determining that some element of reporting in any source was suspect, I chose to base my beliefs on sources that just tell me what I want to hear."

I mean, you COULD just look to several sources that you know occupy different places on the spectrum, and use those to traingulate yourself to understanding what's likely close to the truth:

 

Nope.  Can't do that.  Instead, we just decide "everything is fake, so I'll just go with the story from the bottom of that chart, because I like that kind of magical unicorn."

It's the fucking height of stupidity.  But, we're the Mount Everest of stupid people, so I guess we should have expected this.

In the last week two of those "minimal partison bias" sources investigated whether or not Trump awarded a medal to a dog.  A couple of days before that one of those same "minimal partison bias" sources described al-Bagdagi as an austere religous scholar.  95% of everything left of The Wall Street Journal on that chart belongs in or left of the Hyper-Partison Liberal block.

[Brisketexan 104597]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

On an NPR story I heard, that was noodling around the topic of the success of socialistic programs in Scandinavian countries, there was a statistic that the large majority of Scandinavians trust one another.  Fewer than half of Americans trust each other.

So that's some actual data supporting F250's point about communitarianism.

I think urbanization and technology have made Americans more aware of the "otherness" of other Americans, both in terms of their differing ethnicity or other differences, but in fearing them and creating negative stereotypes.

Like I said, the death of the commonwealth, traded for the God of Me.  I cite de Tocqueville on here regularly -- his observations about the nature of our society are keenly important.  The fact that we've turned phrases like "for the common good" and "in the interest of society as a whole" into pejoratives to be flung along with spittle in shouting disdain....that's how you kill a society.  350 million people, each of whom is a law and a kingdom unto themselves?  There's no way that ends well.

The first word -- the FIRST DAMNED WORD -- in our charter is "We."  Yet we speak of the other members of that "we" not as our equals and fellow citizens, but as "enemies," and "scum," not because they are actively trying to hurt us, but because they oppose a political leader.  A house divided against itself, all that.  We're destroying ourselves, from the inside.

[Goredho 17346]

Anecdotal story:  I remember when I first became aware that I had Trumpists in my family.  In a passing conversation about politics at a family gathering which must have been early 2016, I was told "Thank God Trump is running.  Only chance we have to prevent a civil war."  I did a double take, and was like, who the fuck is this person I've known all my life?  Civil fucking war?  I pushed back, and was given a diatribe about liberals, Hillary, Obama, political correctness, college brainwashing, the deep state, illegal immigrants and the other antagonists in the Trumpist world.  I just shook my head and said well, "I'm sorry you see the world as so shitty. I don't see it that way."

This relative was already at the place of having lost faith in his fellow citizens, leaders, processes and institutions.  From his vantage point, America was going to hell and Trump looked like a godsend.  I remember thinking he was absolutely nuts.  Still do, and yet...

I look at the course we are on now under Trump, and I have a similar reaction.  I am similarly losing faith in my fellow citizens, leaders, processes and institutions.  I have a different cast of antagonists and set of evil ideals I see spreading within an America I thought I knew.  But I am at the point where if someone asked me about Warren or Buttigieg, I would say, "Yeah, well, something has to change, or else its the end of America as a democratic republic."

Its like we're living in a centrifuge, spinning faster and faster, to where we all get sorted and separated against the edges opposite from each other.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Goredho

[Brisketexan 104597]

2 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

In the last week two of those "minimal partison bias" sources investigated whether or not Trump awarded a medal to a dog.  A couple of days before that one of those same "minimal partison bias" sources described al-Bagdagi as an austere religous scholar.  95% of everything left of The Wall Street Journal on that chart belongs in or left of the Hyper-Partison Liberal block.

Perfect example.  Please go with the al-Bagdadi example.  Did you even READ that piece?  You should.  Even though they should have known the headline would absolutely be taken and run with by folks like you, the article made exactly the point that any thoughtful analysis should -- al-Bagdadi WAS just an austere religious scholar....with no real history of violence or militarism....before he rose to become the head of one of the most notorious terrorist organizations in history.   That's the actual truth.  And it's an important and relevant truth.  The story pulled no punches on his role as a terrorist - not even a little bit.  But you didn't read the story.  You read the headline....and ran with a narrative that fits your preconceived notions.  

In other words, your post above pretty much makes the point I was making, so thanks for that.

[tantric superman 4667]

6 hours ago, Goredho said:

I was getting high last night and started thinking about how much we’ve lost faith in mainstream ideas and institutions.

Things are fucked because you people are on dope.

 

[Goredho 17346]

9 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

In the last week two of those "minimal partison bias" sources investigated whether or not Trump awarded a medal to a dog.  A couple of days before that one of those same "minimal partison bias" sources described al-Bagdagi as an austere religous scholar.  95% of everything left of The Wall Street Journal on that chart belongs in or left of the Hyper-Partison Liberal block.

If you are here:

|.......................X|

And see this:

|............X...........|

It appears far to the left, but only from your vantage point.

[EMAWesome 101]

5 minutes ago, Goredho said:

If you are here:

|.......................X|

And see this:

|............X...........|

It appears far to the left, but only from your vantage point.

That works both ways. (See the Biden supporter on the political scale cartoon in the political cartoon thread.)

[Brisketexan 104597]

1 minute ago, Goredho said:

If you are here:

|.......................X|

And see this:

|............X...........|

It appears far to the left, but only from your vantage point.

We live in a country where the president deems people who are by definition right of center (GOP members) who do not unconditionally support him as "human scum"....so....yeah.  I've watched person after person who I know to be moderate, centrist, and even moderately conservative, be dismissed as "libtards" based on one criterion, and only one criterion: they don't support Donald Trump.  Everyone who doesn't support Trump is libtards or human scum.

A society doesn't recover from that.

[workswithseed 2036]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Perfect example.  Please go with the al-Bagdadi example.  Did you even READ that piece?  You should.  Even though they should have known the headline would absolutely be taken and run with by folks like you, the article made exactly the point that any thoughtful analysis should -- al-Bagdadi WAS just an austere religious scholar....with no real history of violence or militarism....before he rose to become the head of one of the most notorious terrorist organizations in history.   That's the actual truth.  And it's an important and relevant truth.  The story pulled no punches on his role as a terrorist - not even a little bit.  But you didn't read the story.  You read the headline....and ran with a narrative that fits your preconceived notions.  

In other words, your post above pretty much makes the point I was making, so thanks for that.

Then why run with a shitty click bait title? Get out your own ass. Also how about the good boy story that the dog wasn't at the White House?

[Goredho 17346]

3 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

That works both ways. (See the Biden supporter on the political scale cartoon in the political cartoon thread.)

If you can classify 96.6% of a sample size as "left", you are not in the bell curve of moderation in the middle.

[EMAWesome 101]

My general definition of the middle is anywhere between Bill Clinton and either of the Bushes.  The left considers that part of the spectrum to be the KKK today.

[Brisketexan 104597]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

Then why run with a shitty click bait title? Get out your own ass. Also how about the good boy story that the dog wasn't at the White House?

Oh....you want to go with the dog story, too?  Great example.

A fake photo created by "The Daily Wire" -- a "media outlet" that is regularly cited by people on this very site as a valid source -- depicted Trump awarding a dog a medal.  That photo then got global exposure by Trump himself re-tweeting it.  Which led to ACTUAL CONVERSATION BY REAL PEOPLE about whether it was real.  So, several ACTUAL media outlets ran down the story and original photo -- which granted, wasn't difficult -- and reported the FACTS: 1) there was an original photo of the president putting the medal of honor on an actual serviceman, 2) a purported conservative NEWS OUTLET (again, The Daily Wire, cited as an actual news source by many on this board) altered that photo to create a meme (nothing wrong with a meme -- but plenty of eyebrow-raising at a purported news organization doing so), 3) the president posted such photo on his official twitter page, 4) plenty of real people inquired as to the photo (hey, I'm not granting them any gold stars -- it was obvious to anyone with any eye that it was a meme), and 5) other media outlets ran down the origin and basis for the photo, and reported FACTUALLY on the original content and its origin.

So, again, making my point. 

[Goredho 17346]

13 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

My general definition of the middle is anywhere between Bill Clinton and either of the Bushes.  The left considers that part of the spectrum to be the KKK today.

Funny you say that, because I voted for Bush 1, Clinton twice, and Bush 2 once.  And yet here I am, fundamentally unchanged in my ideals, feeling like I am witness to the demise of America.  All while being cast to the far left of the spectrum by people supporting Trump.

[Brisketexan 104597]

2 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Funny you say that, because I voted for Bush 1, Clinton twice, and Bush 2 once.  And yet here I am, fundamentally unchanged in my ideals, feeling like I am witness to the demise of America.  All while being cast to the far left of the spectrum by people supporting Trump.

Bingo.

[RayDog 682]

I would add the demise of the myth of American exceptionalism.

There are at least 20 other countries I would prefer to live in.

[Goredho 17346]

Further, I am at peace with being a “leftie commie liberal” that has chosen his side as Americans fight over America’s identity.

If America as we have known it is going to end, I would rather see it end as a more liberal western democracy than something resembling Russia, Turkey or Saudi Arabia.  Trump has an easier time working with those countries because his world view aligns more closely to that of their leadership than it does with the leadership of say Canada, France or Germany.

That should really be a tell for everyone here in this country.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

I became skeptical of this country the day that trump got elected president. 

I now believe that election was stolen by criminals and Russians. So I once again have faith. 

I believe we gave up on our own democracy more than anyone stealing it.  The “best and brightest” our society decided to elevate turned out to be greedy assholes that worship at the church of money and power.  And I’m not talking about a particular political party or candidate.  We, as a society, lost our way.  The Russians wouldn’t have been successful unless we were already weak enough to be exploited.  

Edited November 5, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[David Dennison 18655]

56 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

My general definition of the middle is anywhere between Bill Clinton and either of the Bushes.  The left considers that part of the spectrum to be the KKK today.

George W. Bush is nowhere close to the middle.

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I believe we gave up on our own democracy more than anyone stealing it.  The “best and brightest” our society decided to elevate turned out to be greedy assholes that worship at the church of money and power.  And I’m not talking about a particular political party or candidate.  We, as a society, lost our way.  The Russians wouldn’t have been successful unless we were already weak enough to be exploited.  

I agreed with you until the “we as a society lost our way” part. It’s not incumbent upon all of society to make sure its leaders aren’t total asshole scumbags, it’s incumbent upon our leaders to not be total asshole scumbags. The leaders can always lie and fool the masses, which right now they are doing and have been for 40 years.

They have certainly failed in that regard and that’s how societies ultimately fail. 

Just the way it works. 

[SaucyJack 3487]

18 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Further, I am at peace with being a “leftie commie liberal” that has chosen his side as Americans fight over America’s identity.

If America as we have known it is going to end, I would rather see it end as a more liberal western democracy than something resembling Russia, Turkey or Saudi Arabia.  Trump has an easier time working with those countries because his world view aligns more closely to that of their leadership than it does with the leadership of say Canada, France or Germany.

That should really be a tell for everyone here in this country.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

42 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I agreed with you until the “we as a society lost our way” part. It’s not incumbent upon all of society to make sure its leaders aren’t total asshole scumbags, it’s incumbent upon our leaders to not be total asshole scumbags. The leaders can always lie and fool the masses, which right now they are doing and have been for 40 years.

Our society allowed people like Zuckerberg and Trump to operate without meaningful accountability for decades and now we are paying the price.  Somewhere along the way we decided it was okay to champion completely amoral sociopaths as role models and then we elevated them to political and economic leadership positions.   

Imagine if Trump wasn’t given a prime time television show for a decade to sell himself as a shrewd businessman.  Imagine if ten years ago our lawmakers did more to protect the privacy of its citizens from user data creepster like Bezos and Zuckerberg.   They exist because our society allows them to exist.  Call it ignorance or apathy but it is incumbent on society to make sure its leaders aren’t harmful to the general well-being of the population.  Ideally, that’s how a democracy/open society is supposed to work.  Ours isn’t working that way. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Dbeasy 14966]

My general definition of the middle is anywhere between Bill Clinton and either of the Bushes.  The left considers that part of the spectrum to be the KKK today.

That’s ridiculous and completely wrong.

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Our society allowed people like Zuckerberg and Trump to operate without meaningful accountability for decades and now we are paying the price.  Somewhere along the way we decided it was okay to champion completely amoral sociopaths as role models and then we elevated them to political and economic leadership positions.   

Imagine if Trump wasn’t given a prime time television show for a decade to sell himself as a shrewd businessman.  Imagine if ten years ago our lawmakers did more to protect the privacy of its citizens from user data creepster like Bezos and Zuckerberg.   They exist because our society allows them to exist.  Call it ignorance or apathy but it is incumbent on society to make sure its leaders aren’t harmful to the general well-being of the population.  Ideally, that’s how a democracy/open society is supposed to work.  Ours isn’t working that way. 

America became great because it had great leaders, going back to when it was founded. Joe squirrel bumfuck didn’t write the constitution.

Our leaders going all the way back to the 60s have been shit, getting worse and worse each time. We could argue all day long about who is ultimately to blame, the leaders themselves or the masses that support them, but the fact remains that for whatever the reason may be, our leaders are and have been shit, and trump is only the natural evolution of that process. 

A tv reality star amoral narcissistic moron. Is the president. It’s actually almost perfect. I think the jury is out on the effects of television on a society. It eventually ruins it. 

[TwiceHorn 31269]

40 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

America became great because it had great leaders, going back to when it was founded. Joe squirrel bumfuck didn’t write the constitution.

Our leaders going all the way back to the 60s have been shit, getting worse and worse each time. We could argue all day long about who is ultimately to blame, the leaders themselves or the masses that support them, but the fact remains that for whatever the reason may be, our leaders are and have been shit, and trump is only the natural evolution of that process. 

A tv reality star amoral narcissistic moron. Is the president. It’s actually almost perfect. I think the jury is out on the effects of television on a society. It eventually ruins it. 

And the internet is worse.

TV "unleashed" the idiots and the unwashed.  The internet has unleashed the great Id and from people from whom we should expect better.

Edited November 5, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[F250 28682]

3 hours ago, Goredho said:

If you are here:

|.......................X|

And see this:

|............X...........|

It appears far to the left, but only from your vantage point.

Disagree. Anyone with a decent education should be able to read Reason, National Review, The Intercept or Jacobin and identify the political bias while also appreciating the content in the article, regardless of their political stance.

If you think the non-political mainstream news outlets are extremely biased and purveyors of fake news than that just demonstrates you are not well read and your opinion should be dismissed, regardless of your political position.

[F250 28682]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

George W. Bush is nowhere close to the middle.

Disagree, Bush operated from the middle, the truth is the middle can be an ugly place.