The Roger Stone Trial

[tx 3 putt 78496]

trump 2020 : Taking America to new lows !

[zork 629]

6 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

trump 2020 : Taking America to new lows !

How many pardons, or pardons +clemency,  has Trump used compared to previous PotUS'?  Assuming the use of a commuted sentence to grant clemency or a pardon is "Taking America to new lows".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States

[NameAlreadyInUse 5169]

20 minutes ago, zork said:

How many pardons, or pardons +clemency,  has Trump used compared to previous PotUS'?  Assuming the use of a commuted sentence to grant clemency or a pardon is "Taking America to new lows".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States

I know that people convicted of scheming to cover up crimes by the president is a pretty rare occurrence, even rarer that they get pardoned or have their sentence commuted. Swim through that myopia zork and run that through your Google machine to see what the results are. I think you’ll be surprised. 

[zork 629]

15 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

I know that people convicted of scheming to cover up crimes by the president is a pretty rare occurrence, even rarer that they get pardoned or have their sentence commuted. Swim through that myopia zork and run that through your Google machine to see what the results are. I think you’ll be surprised. 

At this point Stone is still guilty of the charges as I understand it. (could be wrong, and I understand he is appealing)  But he doesn't go to jail because that part was commuted, right?  Stone didn't actually murder anyone like this killer of multiple  US military persons who recently got a full pardon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_J._Loving

 

[Captainant 28416]

Whataboutism is a really stale act my dude

[SubliminalHorn 6996]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Whataboutism is a really stale act my dude

It’s all they have. They can’t actually defend anything with logic and reason. All whataboutism  

[Bama Chick 28596]

Whatever, Mueller.

[Anastasis 23706]

Lol. The nameplate chimes in. 

[Anastasis 23706]

57 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

It’s all they have. They can’t actually defend anything with logic and reason. All whataboutism  

Just wait. Time is a flat circle. 

[Brew 3049]

1 hour ago, zork said:

How many pardons, or pardons +clemency,  has Trump used compared to previous PotUS'?  Assuming the use of a commuted sentence to grant clemency or a pardon is "Taking America to new lows".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States

Wait, so you think it’s just like all the others for a criminal to have their sentence commuted for a crime that they were convicted of involving the sitting President? Even the most ardent Trump knob gobbler should be able to see that might be an issue. Right?

[zork 629]

1 minute ago, Brew said:

Wait, so you think it’s just like all the others for a criminal to have their sentence commuted for a crime that they were convicted of involving the sitting President? Even the most ardent Trump knob gobbler should be able to see that might be an issue. Right?

I see it.  I can understand the criticism.  I don't agree with many pardons or acts of clemency from the entirety of the PotUS office throughout the years.  I'd be ok with all of it going away.  It currently is within the purview of the office to grant either/or .

[Bama Chick 28596]

Wait, so you think it’s just like all the others for a criminal to have their sentence commuted for a crime that they were convicted of involving the sitting President? Even the most ardent Trump knob gobbler should be able to see that might be an issue. Right?

And it’s not just this latest one that’s problematic.

[TwiceHorn 32006]

2 hours ago, zork said:

How many pardons, or pardons +clemency,  has Trump used compared to previous PotUS'?  Assuming the use of a commuted sentence to grant clemency or a pardon is "Taking America to new lows".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States

There's a massive difference between pardoning your buddies that were just convicted of a crime and using your clemency powers to release common people who have shown rehabilitation, wrongful conviction, or overly harsh sentencing.

Obama had a special program, the promise of which was unfulfilled, for people who had overly harsh drug and other convictions and had shown solid evidence of good behavior and rehabilitation.

Most presidents wind up pardoning a few real crooks for personal reasons (Marc Rich, Scooter Libby, etc.) and they almost always do it at the end of their term to avoid blowback 

By the time Trump is through, he's probably going to set some kind of record for shady pardons and commutations.

[Brew 3049]

1 minute ago, Bama Chick said:

And it’s not just this latest one that’s problematic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think if you look through the history of pardons, that probably isn’t way outside the norm. Doing it for one that was convicted of something that saved your Presidency is.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Also this -

[Anastasis 23706]

4 minutes ago, zork said:

I see it.  I can understand the criticism.  I don't agree with many pardons or acts of clemency from the entirety of the PotUS office throughout the years.  I'd be ok with all of it going away.  It currently is within the purview of the office to grant either/or .

The power has been abused by almost every recent administration, but this is a uniquely egregious abuse. And we should not do away with the power. 

[TwiceHorn 32006]

1 minute ago, Bama Chick said:

Also this -

 

Not to support Trump, but the Pardon Attorney needs to be abolished or taken out of the Department of Justice.

Currently, the Pardon Attorney answers to the AG, the same dude who nominally prosecuted all of the people seeking clemency.  It's a bad arrangement.  https://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2018/06/pardon-system-needs-fixing-advocates-say-but-they-cringe-at-trumps-approach.html

[TwiceHorn 32006]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The power has been abused by almost every recent administration, but this is a uniquely egregious abuse. And we should not do away with the power. 

Past administrations always have shady ones, but they usually are outnumbered by those given to common people.  And the latter are too sparingly granted.

[Bama Chick 28596]

I mean......

[TwiceHorn 32006]

That "signing statement" is pure lunacy.  Peak Trump.

[zork 629]

Susan McDougal

Quote: @Anastasis

The power has been abused by almost every recent administration, but this is a uniquely egregious abuse. And we should not do away with the power. 

 

Quote

McDougal, a bubbly brunette, served two years in prison after being convicted in one of the Whitewater trials and cited for contempt when she refused to testify about President Clinton before a grand jury.

Susan McDougal got a full pardon for refusing to testify against Bill Clinton by Bill Clinton for protecting Bill Clinton.  So Trump's clemency for Stone's punishment phase is arguably less egregious than Clinton's full pardon McDougal.  Stone's deal is clearly not unprecedented.

 

Quote

 President Clinton today pardoned his former Whitewater business partner Susan McDougal and 139 others, including newspaper heiress Patty Hearst and former CIA chief John Deutch.

In one of his final acts before leaving office at noon today, Clinton also pardoned his own brother, Roger, convicted of a drug charge; Housing Secretary Henry Cisneros; four people convicted as a result of the investigation conducted by special counsel Kenneth Starr; and eight people convicted following an investigation of the U.S. Agriculture Department.

...

Clinton pardoned or commuted the sentences of everyone convicted in an independent counsel's probe, conducted by Donald Smaltz, of influence-peddling at the Agriculture Department under former Secretary Mike Espy.

...

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by zork
edit fubar'd the quote function did brew's instead of Anastasis's

[Chad Fuck 18102]

At this point Stone is still guilty of the charges as I understand it. (could be wrong, and I understand he is appealing)  But he doesn't go to jail because that part was commuted, right?  Stone didn't actually murder anyone like this killer of multiple  US military persons who recently got a full pardon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_J._Loving
 

Did you even bother to read what you linked to? He had a death sentence commuted to life in prison without parole? That’s your “But Obama!” gotcha?

What a fucking worthless poster. You either (a) are dumb as a sack of bricks and didn’t read your own hot take link, or (b) you’re a disingenuous piece of shit.

Which is it?

[F250 29181]

Zork: everyone drives over the speed limit so it's ok for Trump to drive 120 MPH down the highway while drunk and being chased by cops. So he might have crashed and caused a few fatalities, everyone speeds.

 

You fucking partisan hack. Get out of here with your moral relativism.

[zork 629]

2 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Did you even bother to read what you linked to? He had a death sentence commuted to life in prison without parole? That’s your “But Obama!” gotcha?

What a fucking worthless poster. You either (a) are dumb as a sack of bricks and didn’t read your own hot take link, or (b) you’re a disingenuous piece of shit.

Which is it?

I was reading about the over a thousand Obama pardons/commuted sentences. As opposed to the less than 50 for Trump. 

I was deciding whether to use the one I did or the FALN dude, Lopez Rivera, or many of the others.  I did make an error saying full pardon.  Decided to use that guy, Loving, cause he murdered people for money for a gift for his main squeeze.

[tx 3 putt 78496]

zork'd !

[Fudge Nuggets 19410]

my bad.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Fudge Nuggets

[zork 629]

1 minute ago, F250 said:

Zork: everyone drives over the speed limit so it's ok for Trump to drive 120 MPH down the highway while drunk and being chased by cops. So he might have crashed and caused a few fatalities, everyone speeds.

 

You fucking partisan hack. Get out of here with your moral relativism.

Is this not the site for posting partisan hack stuff?  I realized my slight error after C-Fuck pointed it out.  Read about Loving, he was in an abusive, poor household as a kid and then in his early 20's killed people for chump change.

[Chad Fuck 18102]

I was reading about the over a thousand Obama pardons/commuted sentences. As opposed to the less than 50 for Trump. 
I was deciding whether to use the one I did or the FALN dude, Lopez Rivera, or many of the others.  I did make an error saying full pardon.  Decided to use that guy, Loving, cause he murdered people for money for a gift for his main squeeze.

Life without parole is a pretty significant difference from full pardon.

So you’re an idiot.

Thanks for the confirmation.

[zork 629]

1 minute ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

That’s pretty shitty. Trump is already at 17 and hasn’t served a full term yet.  Obama had six in eight years.

Law and fucking order, my ass.

Trump has more than a thousand to go then.  Maybe he has a yuge list ready to roll.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/20/obama-used-more-clemency-power/

[tx 3 putt 78496]

pardoning people guilty for investigations involving the president should be illegal 

[Chad Fuck 18102]

Is this not the site for posting partisan hack stuff?  I realized my slight error after C-Fuck pointed it out.  Read about Loving, he was in an abusive, poor household as a kid and then in his early 20's killed people for chump change.

Doubling down on the idiocy, just like dear leader.

Take the loss, pussy.

[F250 29181]

4 minutes ago, zork said:

Is this not the site for posting partisan hack stuff?  I realized my slight error after C-Fuck pointed it out.  Read about Loving, he was in an abusive, poor household as a kid and then in his early 20's killed people for chump change.

What? Are Are you drunk?

[zork 629]

1 minute ago, Chad Fuck said:

 

Doubling down on the idiocy, just like dear leader.

Take the loss, pussy.

 

I admitted the mistake after you pointed it out.  Still a commutation of a double murderer of US military citizens.  

[zork 629]

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

What? Are Are you drunk?

You claiming there is not partisanship here?  Hack-ery is relative.  Alcohol levels are more than usual these past few months I also admit.

[F250 29181]

4 minutes ago, zork said:

Trump has more than a thousand to go then.  Maybe he has a yuge list ready to roll.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/20/obama-used-more-clemency-power/

For the record, I challenge you to find a post of mine where I praise Obama on this site or ToS. I think I gave him props for Cuban relations and maybe Bin Laden.

I have no party loyalty.

This is why I call you a fucking hack. You fucking hack.

[Chad Fuck 18102]

I admitted the mistake after you pointed it out.  Still a commutation of a double murderer of US military citizens.  

No you fucking didn’t. You said a “slight error.” It what world is spending your life in prison without possibility of parole a slight difference from walking free?

And the reason you did it was either to save your bullshit whataboutism or save your foolish pride. Or both. Either way it’s a gigantic turd you let here because you won’t recognize that our president is crook who gives passes to his crooked friends.

You support a corrupt traitor in his treason.

[Captainant 28416]

2 minutes ago, zork said:

I admitted the mistake after you pointed it out.  Still a commutation of a double murderer of US military citizens.  

Holy fuck do you not understand the difference between intervening to remove all prison time for a person who lied to protect the president (and was found guilty by a jury) and going death down to life without parole?

Nevermind that out of 36 of Trump's pardons, 31 of them have been for his campaign officials, national security advisor, and political allies?

Is that shit just same same to you?

[zork 629]

8 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

pardoning people guilty for investigations involving the president should be illegal 

I'm ok with that.  But it is currently legal I believe.

 

1 minute ago, Chad Fuck said:

No you fucking didn’t. You said a “slight error.” It what world is spending your life in prison without possibility of parole a slight difference from walking free?

And the reason you did it was either to save your bullshit whataboutism or save your foolish pride. Or both. Either way it’s a gigantic turd you let here because you won’t recognize that our president is crook who gives passes to his crooked friends.

You support a corrupt traitor in his treason.
 

The error was using the word pardon instead of commutation.(or clemency via commutation)

[NameAlreadyInUse 5169]

25 minutes ago, zork said:

Is this not the site for posting partisan hack stuff?  

No it isn’t. 

[zork 629]

1 minute ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

No it isn’t. 

ok.  @immamac ban me.  It's been a long run.  Echo away.

[workswithseed 2201]

12 minutes ago, zork said:

ok.  @immamac ban me.  It's been a long run.  Echo away.

You shouldn't have said site, but it is cr where partisan hackery is alive.

Edited July 12, 2020 by workswithseed

[Biff Tannen 46073]

Lol zork. It’s like watching a child grow. Or fail to thrive. 

[yoladu 4187]

7 hours ago, zork said:

At this point Stone is still guilty of the charges as I understand it. (could be wrong, and I understand he is appealing)  But he doesn't go to jail because that part was commuted, right?  Stone didn't actually murder anyone like this killer of multiple  US military persons who recently got a full pardon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_J._Loving

 

Full pardon? He got his sentence commuted from a death sentence to life without the possibility of parole.

am I missing something with the full pardon?

 

 

*** haha, i read zork's post and commment immediately without reading the rest of the thread. Good job fellow surlites.

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by yoladu

[yoladu 4187]

oh, and by the way, it's not even effective whattaboutism..

How did the commutation of Dwight D. Loving's sentence help Pres. Obama avoid personal legal jeopardy?

and even if you could find an example, which you can't; it would still be whataboutism, which is shitty unto itself

[FondrenRoad 4378]

Of course Trump isn't commuting death penalties or undoing miscarriages of justice. He doesn't give a shit about any of that.

And really, he is only getting started on pardoning people for personal gain. Just wait til December when he actually starts bargaining.  How many convicted Russian spies do we have?

[tx 3 putt 78496]

22 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Of course Trump isn't commuting death penalties or undoing miscarriages of justice. He doesn't give a shit about any of that.

And really, he is only getting started on pardoning people for personal gain. Just wait til December when he actually starts bargaining.  How many convicted Russian spies do we have?

putin hasn't sent him the list yet 

[Ted Lange 16367]

1 hour ago, zork said:

ok.  @immamac ban me.  It's been a long run.  Echo away.

Or just stop being a huge pussy and admit your Orange god isn’t always right.  

[Ted Lange 16367]

This has become Trump slays the payday lenders worthy.  @zork might go MOMO.  

[zork 629]

3 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

This has become Trump slays the payday lenders worthy.  @zork might go MOMO.  

Was that the dude on hornfans? 

I'm not worried about it.  I don't think there are any outstanding issues with my posts as I leave. 

Not having UT sports will make it easier to go and now is a good time.  One less idoit to tolerate.   

Stone'sbackNixon.jpg

 

 

[TwiceHorn 32006]

For the record, here are the details on Obama's Clemency Initiative.

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/clemency-initiative

Quote

Under the initiative, the Department prioritized clemency applications from inmates who met most, if not all of the following factors:

• They are currently serving a federal sentence in prison and, by operation of law, likely would have received a substantially lower sentence if convicted of the same offense(s) today;
• They are non-violent, low-level offenders without significant ties to large scale criminal organizations, gangs or cartels;
• They have served at least 10 years of their prison sentence;
• They do not have a significant criminal history;
• They have demonstrated good conduct in prison; and
• They have no history of violence prior to or during their current term of imprisonment.

Obama failed at even the de minimis level of criminal justice reform that Trump achieved through Kushner, because of an oppositional-defiant congress and despite the fact that CJ reform had a lot of right-wing support, generally speaking.

This was kind of his effort at the executive level to implement ideas contained in most CJ reform legislation.

It meant Obama granted a record number of clemency applications.  He also left office with a huge backlog of them.  This is, in my opinion, why the clemency power exists and how it should be used.  You're always going to get a few nasty political ones in there, but the game is worth the candle.

Edited July 12, 2020 by TwiceHorn