End of game-KSU

[Bateshorn 9,927]

Can somebody explain to me what exactly happened on 2nd and 3rd down at the end of the game?  I was in transit to dinner and couldn’t see it on tv. Like what actual plays happened and the illegal formation penalty?

i understand we were playing for the field goal and Mensa was running clock, it’s just that the play by play in the box score doesn’t convey the reality well.

[BigOrange1 6,437]

2nd down was a sam "run" up the middle where he took a knee once he got to the LOS.  3rd was the TD that was called back and then another "run" that was really a knee.

[taybo20 2,825]

It seemed stupid to me. KSU had no timeouts and we were running plays like we wanted to score a TD. When all we needed to do was take knees, call timeout and kick the fg. KSU should have let us score a TD before the 5 men in the backfield play to get the ball back to have a chance. 

[scottsins 1,966]

The illegal formation penalty was actually beneficial, because we got to replay the down after running off more time during the penalizes play.

We had 5 men in the backfield, I think.

[Bullneck 19,091]

5 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Can somebody explain to me what exactly happened on 2nd and 3rd down at the end of the game?  I was in transit to dinner and couldn’t see it on tv. Like what actual plays happened and the illegal formation penalty?

i understand we were playing for the field goal and Mensa was running clock, it’s just that the play by play in the box score doesn’t convey the reality well.

Same here: I was at a kid's birthday party and that last :37 took five minutes and most of my phone battery.  

[scottsins 1,966]

It seemed stupid to me. KSU had no timeouts and we were running plays like we wanted to score a TD. When all we needed to do was take knees, call timeout and kick the fg. KSU should have let us score a TD before the 5 men in the backfield play to get the ball back to have a chance. 

What? We definitely were NOT trying to score on the first two snaps. On third, you take he TD if it’s there.

[Par4 146]

KSU had 2 timeouts left, and there was 1:45 left on the clock. Sam ran the ball on first down and intentionally went down close to the LOS. KSU took a timeout. 

We did the same on second down and KSU burned their last timeout. Third down we scored but had an illegal formation that moved us back. We took a knee on the next play and called timeout with a few seconds on the clock. 

Kicked the field goal on fourth down to win. 

[Bateshorn 9,927]

Wait so we intentionally ran an illegal formation play, which scored but was called back, thus resetting the play clock and allowing Tom to run out the game clock for a field goal?

[ImissWallyPryor 9,046]

Yep 

[Bateshorn 9,927]

Ah.  That’s......actually kinda clever. Mensa.

[taybo20 2,825]

9 minutes ago, scottsins said:

 

What? We definitely were NOT trying to score on the first two snaps. On third, you take he TD if it’s there.

 

Why would you tho? The point is to never give them back the ball at that point. And At the time we were right hash making the fg kick harder. I agree the illegal formation penalty was actually benefit and fuck me if that was on purpose lol

[Hard Times 302]

9 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Wait so we intentionally ran an illegal formation play, which scored but was called back, thus resetting the play clock and allowing Tom to run out the game clock for a field goal?

I'm not sure it was intentional, but I was thinking it should have been. Yes, there's always the possibility of missing an easy chip shot, but I'll take that risk over another crabtree moment every time.

[Soliver465 404]

I thought the end game management was spot on.  The last thing I wanted to see is another kick-off returned for a touchdown and then a two-point conversion as time expired.

 

[Longhorn 145]

I guess KSU accepted the penalty with 39 seconds left assuming it had better chance of us missing FG or us fumbling, than it had of running the field for a TD? 

[Bateshorn 9,927]

Yeah.  It’s the right call with the game tied or leading. You don’t want the other team to see the ball again before the end of regulation. 

[Bateshorn 9,927]

1 minute ago, Longhorn said:

I guess KSU accepted the penalty with 39 seconds left assuming it had better chance of us missing FG or us fumbling, than it had of running the field for a TD? 

They accepted to worsen Dicker’s odds in a bad situation. The game clock was going to restart either way,  might as well move the horns back.

[Longhorn 145]

3 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

They accepted to worsen Dicker’s odds in a bad situation. The game clock was going to restart either way,  might as well move the horns back.

If they declined penalty, Texas has TD and KSU gets ball with 39 seconds left. Not sure how good their kick returner is, but might have been worth the gamble.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Longhorn

[Poolflood 845]

14 minutes ago, Longhorn said:

If they declined penalty, Texas has TD and KSU gets ball with 39 seconds left. Not sure how good their kick returner is, but might have been worth the gamble.

This made me laugh and cry.

[Armybrat 40,848]

17 minutes ago, Longhorn said:

If they declined penalty, Texas has TD and KSU gets ball with 39 seconds left. Not sure how good their kick returner is, but might have been worth the gamble.

We knew how bad our kick return coverage was.

[Bateshorn 9,927]

Did not know you could decline an illegal formation. 

[Longhorn 145]

19 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Did not know you could decline an illegal formation. 

100% you can. 

 

[Liquor and Poker 3,659]

41 minutes ago, Soliver465 said:

I thought the end game management was spot on.  The last thing I wanted to see is another kick-off returned for a touchdown and then a two-point conversion as time expired.

 

Yeah. The whole series was a study in “don’t fuck this up.”  Ellinger never let go of the ball once.  Four/five straight QB runs. The illegal formation looked like the victory formation.  All “let’s make sure nothing bad happens”.  So once you are trying to score on a QB keeper from the 8, just line it up, down it and kick.

That series of plays was the right move if you desperately need a win and have zero confidence in special teams or D. 
 

[sidis 9,828]

21 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Did not know you could decline an illegal formation. 

Yes, you definitely can. Not the same as a false start. 
 

In hindsight, obviously you decline the penalty since dicker made it but if you’re the KSU coach there, you know even Texas’ special teams isn’t stupid enough to kick it off conventionally if they score a TD. So then you have about :30-:35 to go downfield and score a TD with no timeouts when they hadn’t score an offensive TD since the first qtr. In that case, you are better off just letting the clock run down and hoping someone screws up one of the many things that have to be perfect on a pressure-filled fg attempt. 

[Liquor and Poker 3,659]

54 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

The game clock was going to restart either way

Yeah, the ref said that 3 times and even added “regardless” to the last one.  I felt like he was explaining it to Charlie Strong. 
 

I would have declined.  KO and one offensive play is better than just helplessly watching a chip shot FG sail through as time expired. Especially given that they only tried to return one KO and that worked out pretty well. 

[Liquor and Poker 3,659]

1 minute ago, sidis said:

Yes, you definitely can. Not the same as a false start. 
 

In hindsight, obviously you decline the penalty since dicker made it but if you’re the KSU coach there, you know even Texas’ special teams isn’t stupid enough to kick it off conventionally if they score a TD. So then you have about :30-:35 to go downfield and score a TD with no timeouts when they hadn’t score an offensive TD since the first qtr. In that case, you are better off just letting the clock run down and hoping someone screws up one of the many things that have to be perfect on a pressure-filled fg attempt. 

I don’t think you know what Texas is going to do on the KO.  The TD was the only one Dicker didn’t kick into to end zone.  So Texas might bet on his leg over a squib given how atrocious the special teams were on their only real attempt.
 

And running 1-2 hail mary plays on offense is better than hoping for OT on the off chance a pretty solid kicker misses a chip shot from the middle of the field, or there’s a bobbled snap, etc. The odds suck but at least you have some control over things. 

[XYZ 2,154]

8 minutes ago, Liquor and Poker said:

That series of plays was the right move if you desperately need a win and have zero confidence in special teams or D.

Are there other kinds of needing a win? Like “sort of need a win” or “a win would be good but no biggie? Asking for a friend.

[hpslugga 4,059]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

Wait so we intentionally ran an illegal formation play, which scored but was called back, thus resetting the play clock and allowing Tom to run out the game clock for a field goal?

It sure seemed that way because whoever was supposed to be on the LOS was very egregiously not.

[BeTheBallDanny 27]

Mensa didn’t dream up the illegal formation strategy to run clock.  It was dumb to run the play, unwise to score, and more proof that essentially every living person should be a Mensa member.

I agree that Kleimann (another Mensa member?) screwed up by not declining the penalty and giving his team a chance.  By missing that decision, he (with no timeouts) left the game to a certain clock drain and a virtually certain probability of a made FG as time expired.

That last sequence will not make any coaching excellence instructional videos due to bad choices from both sidelines...

[Dbeasy 15,051]

Yeah, the ref said that 3 times and even added “regardless” to the last one.  I felt like he was explaining it to Charlie Strong. 
 
I would have declined.  KO and one offensive play is better than just helplessly watching a chip shot FG sail through as time expired. Especially given that they only tried to return one KO and that worked out pretty well. 

Kleiman couldn’t decline the penalty. He took KSU and the points with his bookie. He needed to lock that down.

[HornsOverIthaca 2,333]

3 hours ago, BigOrange1 said:

2nd down was a sam "run" up the middle where he took a knee once he got to the LOS.

[Liquor and Poker 3,659]

2 hours ago, XYZ said:

Are there other kinds of needing a win? Like “sort of need a win” or “a win would be good but no biggie? Asking for a friend.

Really?  Wow.  You have no clue what I mean by that.  Not worth explaining, then.

[crash_davis 23,113]

3 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

Wait so we intentionally ran an illegal formation play, which scored but was called back, thus resetting the play clock and allowing Tom to run out the game clock for a field goal?

 

3 hours ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

Yep 

lulz. was not intentional at all. players and staff were pissed the td was called back. also herman admitted in the after game PC that sam and the team convinced him to go for the td during the timeout.

[BradInATX 9,208]

3 hours ago, Soliver465 said:

I thought the end game management was spot on.  The last thing I wanted to see is another kick-off returned for a touchdown and then a two-point conversion as time expired.

 

Agreed. I've been critical of Herman and still don't think he's the answer, but that's a situation that a lot of coaches, maybe most coaches, would handle incorrectly. We did it perfectly.

[Liquor and Poker 3,659]

1 hour ago, BeTheBallDanny said:

Mensa didn’t dream up the illegal formation strategy to run clock.  It was dumb to run the play, unwise to score, and more proof that essentially every living person should be a Mensa member.

I agree that Kleimann (another Mensa member?) screwed up by not declining the penalty and giving his team a chance.  By missing that decision, he (with no timeouts) left the game to a certain clock drain and a virtually certain probability of a made FG as time expired.

That last sequence will not make any coaching excellence instructional videos due to bad choices from both sidelines...

I don't think the illegal formation was intended to be illegal or to run clock. It was intended to potentially score in the safest possible way and Texas overdid the "safe" part by having 5 guys in the backfield.  

I think the original plan was "we have run all over these guys.  We can likely score on one play here with an Ellinger run.  So let's waste the first two plays on burning clock/K-State TOs."  Then we score on third.  If it doesn't work, kick it and be done.  BUT under no circumstances should we risk a turnover or even a bobbled exchange, so all plays will be Ellinger runs.  So on the third down "actual try to score" the play was designed to protect the initial exchange and set Ellinger up with time to react.  It looked like the victory formation.

When the penalty moved the ball back to the 8, the chance of scoring on an Ellinger run dropped enough that Herman decided the best thing to do was to set up the kick and run the clock out.  So they basically ran the same play as on 1st and 2nd.

[crash_davis 23,113]

i think they ran sam on 1st and 2nd downs as safe runs. if he could easily score, then score. if it looked like he couldn't score, then go down at the line of scrimmage. no sense fighting for it and risking a fumble.

i've watched the replay a few times of that sequence and it looked like we were half ass trying to score those two plays.

[Hornin04 261]

We're talking about mensa here.

The illegal formation was intentional, knowing it would allow us to run off even more time.

I was of the mindset that we needed a touchdown unless we were able to milk the clock completely because I didn't trust our defense or special teams. Even if it meant leaving them under 30 s, I wanted 7. Mensa's "plan" worked out better though, keeping our D off the field.

[Pato del Muerto 52,499]

I assumed based on how terrible the formation was and how obvious it was that there were 5 in the backfield that it was done to draw a flag. 
if it wasn’t, then that’s idiocy and could have/could still happen if we needed a td. 
 

the first 2 runs were also obviously meant to burn clock and center the ball. 

[crash_davis 23,113]

Just now, Horny04 said:

We're talking about mensa here.

The illegal formation was intentional, knowing it would allow us to run off even more time.

 

motherfuckers. go rewatch the play and the players and coaches reactions. shit was not intentional. also look at the below clip with tom admitting it wasn't intentional. if this doesn't shut up the intentional myth, then we have some gullible ass people.

 

[Hornin04 261]

if this doesn't shut up the intentional myth, then we have some gullible ass people.

And some dense ass people who don't understand sarcasm and/the meaning of quotation marks

[crash_davis 23,113]

5 minutes ago, Horny04 said:

 

 

And some dense ass people who don't understand sarcasm and/the meaning of quotation marks

 

then my apologies to you kind sir for missing the sarcasm. i am ragey from a few people on different threads citing the intentional bullshit. mensa is not in fact mensa. hard for some people to accept.

[torre 1,286]

Postgame press conference:    

 

Q. But specifically to not get them any more time --

TOM HERMAN: Yeah, that was -- again, we pride ourselves on our clock management. I think you've seen that time and time again. I said the gods were kind of shining on us that we lined up in an illegal formation when Sam scored because that probably wasn't the prudent thing to do. I got talked into it by the O-line and Sam, but to be able to milk that thing all the way down to three seconds with the kicker and unit that we have was -- again, to take possession with 6:45 in a tie ballgame and then get a win and with double zeros on the clock 13 plays and 67 yards later, that's pretty impressive.

https://texassports.com/documents/2019/11/9//Herman_press_conference_11_9_19.docx
 

[Hanrahan 1,306]

I don't think the illegal formation was intended to be illegal or to run clock. It was intended to potentially score in the safest possible way and Texas overdid the "safe" part by having 5 guys in the backfield.  
I think the original plan was "we have run all over these guys.  We can likely score on one play here with an Ellinger run.  So let's waste the first two plays on burning clock/K-State TOs."  Then we score on third.  If it doesn't work, kick it and be done.  BUT under no circumstances should we risk a turnover or even a bobbled exchange, so all plays will be Ellinger runs.  So on the third down "actual try to score" the play was designed to protect the initial exchange and set Ellinger up with time to react.  It looked like the victory formation.
When the penalty moved the ball back to the 8, the chance of scoring on an Ellinger run dropped enough that Herman decided the best thing to do was to set up the kick and run the clock out.  So they basically ran the same play as on 1st and 2nd.

You’d think people would know how to spell his name by now.

[scottsins 1,966]

The guy next to me summed it up best.

“Who do you trust more...Dicker as the clock runs out OR our KO coverage/defense with 40 seconds left or whatever?”

Oh, if Tom intentionally took that penalty, I would be impressed. To think of that in that game situation would be pretty remarkable.

[Irieguy 1,059]

3 hours ago, XYZ said:

Are there other kinds of needing a win? Like “sort of need a win” or “a win would be good but no biggie? Asking for a friend.

Of course there are degrees of need. I desperately need oxygen. I need you to shut the fuck up to a less desperate degree. 

[MrPhlegm 3,413]

motherfuckers. go rewatch the play and the players and coaches reactions. shit was not intentional. also look at the below clip with tom admitting it wasn't intentional. if this doesn't shut up the intentional myth, then we have some gullible ass people.
 

ACTING!

GENIUS!

[TheFlyingBoat 906]

43 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

motherfuckers. go rewatch the play and the players and coaches reactions. shit was not intentional. also look at the below clip with tom admitting it wasn't intentional. if this doesn't shut up the intentional myth, then we have some gullible ass people.

 

Watch Herman's reaction dumb fuck. He is fine with it and tells some dude moping to shut the fuck up. He probably made it happen so he could appease his team and keep the locker room bought in during a difficult time AND also get the scenario he wanted.

[MrPhlegm 3,413]

as for me I hated it.

tom should have

FUCKING
QUICK
KICKED!!!

and gone to onertime.

fucking mensa moron.

[bullet 1,597]

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

i think they ran sam on 1st and 2nd downs as safe runs. if he could easily score, then score. if it looked like he couldn't score, then go down at the line of scrimmage. no sense fighting for it and risking a fumble.

i've watched the replay a few times of that sequence and it looked like we were half ass trying to score those two plays.

 

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

i think they ran sam on 1st and 2nd downs as safe runs. if he could easily score, then score. if it looked like he couldn't score, then go down at the line of scrimmage. no sense fighting for it and risking a fumble.

i've watched the replay a few times of that sequence and it looked like we were half ass trying to score those two plays.

Right.  You ALWAYS score the TD if you can.  Sam took the knee on 2nd and 3rd down when he got in traffic to avoid having someone try to rip the ball from his hands.  He was going to score if it was there.  Bama-LSU in the game of the year missed two extra points.  And this is KSU where special teams are always good.  You don't put it on the kicker if you can score the TD.

[bullet 1,597]

30 minutes ago, scottsins said:

The guy next to me summed it up best.

“Who do you trust more...Dicker as the clock runs out OR our KO coverage/defense with 40 seconds left or whatever?”

Oh, if Tom intentionally took that penalty, I would be impressed. To think of that in that game situation would be pretty remarkable.

You take the 7 point lead.  And you have the kicker kick it out of bounds, giving it to them at the 35.

[HtownHorn 14,682]

5 hours ago, taybo20 said:

It seemed stupid to me. KSU had no timeouts and we were running plays like we wanted to score a TD. When all we needed to do was take knees, call timeout and kick the fg. KSU should have let us score a TD before the 5 men in the backfield play to get the ball back to have a chance. 

KSU let us score on 3rd down. Why is this so hard to figure out. Sam needed to run off 2-3 seconds to get the game clock under 40 seconds before going down.