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1% Close to Surpassing Wealth of Entire Middle Class


Bruh Man

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39 minutes ago, bonnieblue said:

I think the really interesting part is when Brett and Lauren start to realize their lives are closer to S and C than Trump/Bloomberg as well:

  • Are living paycheck to paycheck - it's a bigger paycheck and there may be some savings, but they also have bigger bills, the mortgage, student loans etc.
  • If in a marriage, both parents are working
  • Are having their children educated by a decaying and underfunded public system - or paying too much of that above paycheck to get them into a private school/ or higher mortgage for the better public
  • Have little to no savings - they have some, but again, bigger bills
  • Have little to no equity in their home - they might, if they were ever able to get a down payment together to buy that house
  • Cannot afford to educate their children past high-school without crippling debt
  • Would be wiped out by a job or health emergency - better able to handle the unexpected simple knee surgery, but one major care wreck could really tilt their world upside down
  • The family breaking out of this caste often requires some generation to literally or metaphorically hit the lottery - better odds than the former, but the ability to afford their children's college and their children's access to traditional gate keeping institutions (the Ivys, certain prep schools, unpaid internships, connections, even acting/music etc.) is getting smaller

Spot fucking on.

They also have lived through 2000 and 2008 and have seen what can happen to whatever retirement they have scraped together.

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1 hour ago, bonnieblue said:

I think the really interesting part is when Brett and Lauren start to realize their lives are closer to S and C than Trump/Bloomberg as well:

  • Are living paycheck to paycheck - it's a bigger paycheck and there may be some savings, but they also have bigger bills, the mortgage, student loans etc.
  • If in a marriage, both parents are working
  • Are having their children educated by a decaying and underfunded public system - or paying too much of that above paycheck to get them into a private school/ or higher mortgage for the better public
  • Have little to no savings - they have some, but again, bigger bills
  • Have little to no equity in their home - they might, if they were ever able to get a down payment together to buy that house
  • Cannot afford to educate their children past high-school without crippling debt
  • Would be wiped out by a job or health emergency - better able to handle the unexpected simple knee surgery, but one major care wreck could really tilt their world upside down
  • The family breaking out of this caste often requires some generation to literally or metaphorically hit the lottery - better odds than the former, but the ability to afford their children's college and their children's access to traditional gate keeping institutions (the Ivys, certain prep schools, unpaid internships, connections, even acting/music etc.) is getting smaller

Just call me fucking Brett.  This is getting more true by the day.

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1 hour ago, bonnieblue said:

I think the really interesting part is when Brett and Lauren start to realize their lives are closer to S and C than Trump/Bloomberg as well:

  • Are living paycheck to paycheck - it's a bigger paycheck and there may be some savings, but they also have bigger bills, the mortgage, student loans etc.
  • If in a marriage, both parents are working
  • Are having their children educated by a decaying and underfunded public system - or paying too much of that above paycheck to get them into a private school/ or higher mortgage for the better public
  • Have little to no savings - they have some, but again, bigger bills
  • Have little to no equity in their home - they might, if they were ever able to get a down payment together to buy that house
  • Cannot afford to educate their children past high-school without crippling debt
  • Would be wiped out by a job or health emergency - better able to handle the unexpected simple knee surgery, but one major care wreck could really tilt their world upside down
  • The family breaking out of this caste often requires some generation to literally or metaphorically hit the lottery - better odds than the former, but the ability to afford their children's college and their children's access to traditional gate keeping institutions (the Ivys, certain prep schools, unpaid internships, connections, even acting/music etc.) is getting smaller

Not to pile on but B and L, in the suburbs, also have the weight of $1400 for daycare of one infant, or $2200 for one infant and a toddler, or $2900 for one infant and two toddlers in their early family lives.

f me

Edited by pacman
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5 hours ago, Goredho said:

Which is why "white male privilege" pisses off so many people who are white, male and broke as a fucking joke.  If you are working your ass off and falling further behind, no one should see you as "privileged".  That's the context of out-of-touch condescension that allows someone like Trump to rise up and take control.

We are increasingly becoming a country of haves and have nots and the haves have done a masterful job of turning the have nots against each other.

EGROvps-VUAAi-AQW.jpg

Yes! To ChiTown's point, I read an excellent article way back from the late 2000s. It discussed how the 1% pays the next 10% or so just enough to get them voting and speaking up for the 1%, against their own self-interests, but not enough to actually elevate their own family's fortunes. All the while, convincing them to take on more and more debt.

Edited by pacman
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The top 1% or 10% vote against their own interests.  They are not vulnerable enough to be understand the concerns of Brett.  So they vote to use Brett's income (and above) to support Clyde.

Brett is the one really getting fucked.

Edited by JBJ
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4 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

We are a relatively young country.  The UK is a great example of how a country grows dumber and lazier over time.  We fucked.  

I do think WW1 contributed greatly to that process. They, and we, won. But what a price they paid. Us, not as much. 

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26 minutes ago, pacman said:

Yes! To ChiTown's point, I read an excellent article way back from the late 2000s. It discussed how the 1% pays the next 10% or so just enough to get them voting and speaking up for the 1%, against their own self-interests, but not enough to actually elevate their own family's fortunes. All the while, convincing them to take on more and more debt.

This was similar to FDR's argument he had for the rich/titans of industry around the beginning of the Great Depression.  He was able to get the wealthy players to buy in on giving up some things and helping out in order to avoid a full scale revolution.  You can a pay a little bit now or a lot later.

 

In addition, I would also add that another part of our problem is wanton consumerism.  For example a primary driver in housing is square footage which has jumped from ~1,200 sqft in the 60's to over 2,200 sqft today. ..and this in addition to all the other complete stupid bullshit we spend money on.  The reason we do this is because we are stupid lemmings who have no sense of self worth and must rely on some kind of shopping high to sustain ourselves somehow, all the while  we stuff ourselves with crappy food because we don't have time to cook or because we need some kind additional comfort.

Many of these increasing costs act like a hidden regressive tax.  The best example I can think of is college tuition.  Disregard the truly elite who send their kids to incredibly expensive private colleges without a thought and consider the merely very wealthy who send their kids to great public universities.  The high tuition does not bother them in the least as it is not a large % of their income, but has become a disproportionate expense for even the well off as public funding has been reduced.

Frankly I don't know how some of you can get by.  I own my very nice home and my two family vehicles outright.  Have no debt.  Make a descent living along with my wife.  I have put one kid through college and have two more who attend public school.  I am self employed and take full advantage of the tax code when I can.  We are not even close to being paycheck to paycheck, but if I have no idea how I am going to retire, pay for college for my two youngest, pay for a new car, or deal with a major medical event.  We live modestly, garden, cook, road trip on family vacations etc.,  I have been putting off knee surgery/diagnosis  to avoid the hit.  I buy my slacks at Costco for god's sake.  We are fucked as a country if something doesn't change.

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54 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

I buy my slacks at Costco for god's sake.  We are fucked as a country if something doesn't change.

I used to think rich people bought their slacks at Costco.  As a kid, my XJ900 shoes had a ‘sloosh’ instead of a Swoosh.  And it was pink as they were obviously girls shoes - I’d be cool in those today.  I got made fun of and came home crying.  My dad took a permanent marker to those fuckers and sent me back the next day.  Said I wasn’t welcome home crying ever again.  
 

Anyways, my point is it’s all relative and now I think of you as a poor.  That whole you never forget where you came from thing is BS.  You have to constantly remind yourself, or you sure af will forget.  And that’s how we are all going to hell in a hand basket. 

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And just a note -- I am pretty confident that Chitown is a 1% type (based on his car ownership decisions alone), and I am close to that territory (not bragging, I actually find it kind of embarrassing).  Maybe it's that we both grew up in much more modest circumstances, but we can absolutely see the fucking the middle class is getting (to that point, many of my friends and peers are still a part of that demographic, so I'm still quite in touch with that economic reality).

My point being that the idea that we need to take dramatic steps to address crippling inequality isn't a position owned by the "have-nots" who just want to take from the folks who make money.  It's an idea owned by people across the board who have simply looked at what it takes to have a healthy vs. unhealthy society, and realize that we are all in this society together.  I'm not a socialist, or a capitalist, as those labels are just asinine fighting words mostly used by people who understand neither system; I believe in balance and the rule of law.

Edited by Brisketexan
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why should the top 0.5% have to pay 40 percent of the taxes?  /Tahoe

5 hours ago, Jiggy-Z said:

This was similar to FDR's argument he had for the rich/titans of industry around the beginning of the Great Depression.  He was able to get the wealthy players to buy in on giving up some things and helping out in order to avoid a full scale revolution.  You can a pay a little bit now or a lot later.

 

In addition, I would also add that another part of our problem is wanton consumerism.  For example a primary driver in housing is square footage which has jumped from ~1,200 sqft in the 60's to over 2,200 sqft today. ..and this in addition to all the other complete stupid bullshit we spend money on.  The reason we do this is because we are stupid lemmings who have no sense of self worth and must rely on some kind of shopping high to sustain ourselves somehow, all the while  we stuff ourselves with crappy food because we don't have time to cook or because we need some kind additional comfort.

 

Our tax system does not reward building small on a plot of land.  Expenses have increased and things which did not exist in the past are now required in the workforce (home internet, mobile phones).   Even our food is more expensive because we choose to try to buy less bastardized food (I recently bought bread that mold could grow on, it was something I had not seen in a long time)

 

 

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5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

And just a note -- I am pretty confident that Chitown is a 1% type (based on his car ownership decisions alone), and I am close to that territory (not bragging, I actually find it kind of embarrassing).  Maybe it's that we both grew up in much more modest circumstances, but we can absolutely see the fucking the middle class is getting (to that point, many of my friends and peers are still a part of that demographic, so I'm still quite in touch with that economic reality).

My point being that the idea that we need to take dramatic steps to address crippling inequality isn't a position owned by the "have-nots" who just want to take from the folks who make money.  It's an idea owned by people across the board who have simply looked at what it takes to have a healthy vs. unhealthy society, and realize that we are all in this society together.  I'm not a socialist, or a capitalist, as those labels are just asinine fighting words mostly used by people who understand neither system; I believe in balance and the rule of law.

Yes, exactly.  You are much better with words but what you posted above is what I'm trying to get at. 

It drives me completely insane to see people vote against their own best interests.  The fucking game is rigged.  The funny thing is I was naive as all hell coming up and until I got to where I am, I really didn't think about all that.  Now seeing the view from a higher plane, it's painfully obvious.  It's also very easy to forget about those left behind if you choose to do so.  You can pick your circles a hell of a lot easier when you do well, and then come home and watch some fox news.  If you really want to, you can pretend like everything is just fucking fine.  And that's exactly what a fuckload of people do.  They're not laughing some evil laugh while lording over the masses.  Nope...just a simple ignorance is bliss attitude.  

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Not to pile on but B and L, in the suburbs, also have the weight of $1400 for daycare of one infant, or $2200 for one infant and a toddler, or $2900 for one infant and two toddlers in their early family lives.
f me
God I wish day care dropped to 800 bucks when they move to toddler. Mine moved out of infant 6 months ago and we went from $1400/month to $1340/month. Making it rain with my extra 60 bucks.
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22 minutes ago, BradInATX said:
17 hours ago, pacman said:
Not to pile on but B and L, in the suburbs, also have the weight of $1400 for daycare of one infant, or $2200 for one infant and a toddler, or $2900 for one infant and two toddlers in their early family lives.
f me

God I wish day care dropped to 800 bucks when they move to toddler. Mine moved out of infant 6 months ago and we went from $1400/month to $1340/month. Making it rain with my extra 60 bucks.

I just assumed some sort of bulk discount.

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So to be top 1% in Texas you need to earn a little over 400k. 
 

On a global basis like 32k. 
 

There is huge difference in a person earning 400k vs a Billionaire. (Obviously) 

Taxing the lower end of 1% doesn’t get you much IMO. It’s a Billionaire thing. Not sure how much runway there is even there. 
 

 

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16 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Um, "Ruppert" pretty much IS the federal government.  This administration just wasn't shy about making it official.

Not in that image,  It's the old story of rich fucks pitting one group against another, and if it's not clear who's being depicted, the cartoon fails.

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43 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Not in that image,  It's the old story of rich fucks pitting one group against another, and if it's not clear who's being depicted, the cartoon fails.

Gotcha.  I was just commenting on the fact that the lines between Murdoch's Fox News and this administration have been blurred beyond recognition.

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2 hours ago, BrazilHorn said:

So to be top 1% in Texas you need to earn a little over 400k. 
 

On a global basis like 32k. 
 

There is huge difference in a person earning 400k vs a Billionaire. (Obviously) 

Taxing the lower end of 1% doesn’t get you much IMO. It’s a Billionaire thing. Not sure how much runway there is even there. 
 

 

Then it's good that the high tax brackets will be progressive and the $400k guy will only be taxed very highly on his 400,001st dollar, not the first 400,000.

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11 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Yes, exactly.  You are much better with words but what you posted above is what I'm trying to get at. 

It drives me completely insane to see people vote against their own best interests.  The fucking game is rigged.  The funny thing is I was naive as all hell coming up and until I got to where I am, I really didn't think about all that.  Now seeing the view from a higher plane, it's painfully obvious.  It's also very easy to forget about those left behind if you choose to do so.  You can pick your circles a hell of a lot easier when you do well, and then come home and watch some fox news.  If you really want to, you can pretend like everything is just fucking fine.  And that's exactly what a fuckload of people do.  They're not laughing some evil laugh while lording over the masses.  Nope...just a simple ignorance is bliss attitude.  

 

17 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

And just a note -- I am pretty confident that Chitown is a 1% type (based on his car ownership decisions alone), and I am close to that territory (not bragging, I actually find it kind of embarrassing).  Maybe it's that we both grew up in much more modest circumstances, but we can absolutely see the fucking the middle class is getting (to that point, many of my friends and peers are still a part of that demographic, so I'm still quite in touch with that economic reality).

My point being that the idea that we need to take dramatic steps to address crippling inequality isn't a position owned by the "have-nots" who just want to take from the folks who make money.  It's an idea owned by people across the board who have simply looked at what it takes to have a healthy vs. unhealthy society, and realize that we are all in this society together.  I'm not a socialist, or a capitalist, as those labels are just asinine fighting words mostly used by people who understand neither system; I believe in balance and the rule of law.

To piggy back onto both of these, as a fellow top 5%er, I'd like to add that if we're particularly honest, we have to admit how much luck played into it.  Success is a three legged stool.  Hard work, aptitude, and luck, even if that just means being in the right place at the right time or hitting the birth lottery.  ChiTown mentioned how easy to forget where you came from and that's definitely the case.  You have to really work to remember that and get outside your bubble. 

I'd like to see us as a country change to where luck isn't such a factor.  A kid born into a poor family in a poor school district shouldn't get handicapped at birth because of that.

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3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

But why should MY taxes go to pay for some single mom who made a poor choice when the money can be used at MY school? /sarcasm-over

Even though you're being sarcastic, I'll give the answer I give everyone.  As an upscale DINK, I still have an interested in that poor kid with the single mom growing up to be a productive citizen.  It's not even the fantasy that he'd cure cancer or something but rather he graduates high school and has the skills to work in skilled manufacturing or a trade.  If that kid has the tools to do it then that means millions of other kids do to and I need that wave of kids to support the economy in 20 years.  To be selfish, I need them to pay for my SS and Medicare but on a larger scale, I care for my country and want it to have an educated populace.  

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13 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Even though you're being sarcastic, I'll give the answer I give everyone.  As an upscale DINK, I still have an interested in that poor kid with the single mom growing up to be a productive citizen.  It's not even the fantasy that he'd cure cancer or something but rather he graduates high school and has the skills to work in skilled manufacturing or a trade.  If that kid has the tools to do it then that means millions of other kids do to and I need that wave of kids to support the economy in 20 years.  To be selfish, I need them to pay for my SS and Medicare but on a larger scale, I care for my country and want it to have an educated populace.  

http://youtu.be/kD-AXgYO0lo

 

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So these are some great continuations from the discussion yesterday.  The following is just my opinion.

A one-percenter deserves what they have earned through hard work or received through good fortune in whatever ratio of both.  My only problem arises when a one-percenter:

  • Lives in a vacuum and has no concerns for the world outside their estate
  • Profits at the expense of those less fortunate
  • Views their bank account as a measure of their worth relative to other humans
  • Views themselves as above general society vs a part of it with and with an obligation to it

There are plenty of conscientious people in the 1%.  There are some examples in this thread.  It is not that someone possesses wealth, it is what they do with it and their position of power and influence.  If Donald Trump had taken the money given to him by his father and parleyed that into great works for the benefit of the many less fortunate than himself, I would be singing his praises.  But he has not.  He has parleyed it into this malignant stint of "public service" that enriches himself and those like him while damaging the many who are vastly less fortunate than he has been.  I don't know how much better Michael Bloomberg will be.  So far the sum total of his media blitz pitch is that he is "Not Donald Trump".  But his and Trump's life experiences, distance from the problems of the majority of Americans and willingness to circumvent rules and norms are disturbingly similar.

The people occupying the higher economic strata of American society need to realize that their position of wealth, power and influence is built upon the backs of everyone else.  That the masses are working harder and harder for less and less.  That we are nearing a tipping point, and that if the wealthy do not sacrifice to reinforce the lower economic classes in this country, society will fall apart along with their castles built on top of it.

I'm thankful that some of you understand that.

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1 hour ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Even though you're being sarcastic, I'll give the answer I give everyone.  As an upscale DINK, I still have an interested in that poor kid with the single mom growing up to be a productive citizen.  It's not even the fantasy that he'd cure cancer or something but rather he graduates high school and has the skills to work in skilled manufacturing or a trade.  If that kid has the tools to do it then that means millions of other kids do to and I need that wave of kids to support the economy in 20 years.  To be selfish, I need them to pay for my SS and Medicare but on a larger scale, I care for my country and want it to have an educated populace.  

Hey now, some of us poor kids with single moms grow up to have jobs that are very important to society, like law....oh wait..., yeah, I think skilled manufacturers may be more useful.

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2 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

To piggy back onto both of these, as a fellow top 5%er, I'd like to add that if we're particularly honest, we have to admit how much luck played into it.  Success is a three legged stool.  Hard work, aptitude, and luck, even if that just means being in the right place at the right time or hitting the birth lottery.  ChiTown mentioned how easy to forget where you came from and that's definitely the case.  You have to really work to remember that and get outside your bubble. 

100% this.

Am I inherently intelligent?  Sure.  Have I worked hard to get where I am?  You bet.  BUT....I was born into a stable family, with parents who took an interest in reading to me, seeing to my education, paying for me to go to private school as a kid, etc.  No major calamities hit my family during my childhood -- we were steady both physically and economically.  I was able to attend a good, cheap state university (an option that isn't as available today).  Luck, opportunity, and circumstance played an ESSENTIAL role in my success.  And had circumstances tilted the other way, they may well have played a role in limiting my success.  This phenomenon is the whole "born on third base and thinks he hit a triple" thing.

And there's nothing WRONG with that -- I don't feel guilty for being born on third base, relatively speaking.  I am lucky, I am blessed, and I don't feel guilty about that.  But, I sure felt a sense of obligation not to WASTE the opportunity I've been given.  And I also have a duty to be mindful and helpful to those around me who have not been so blessed.  If I can do something to open doors of opportunity for someone -- opening a path that can change the arc of an entire family -- then I damned well have to. I HAVE TO -- as a member of a community, a commonwealth, and a person of faith.  

"There but for the grace of God go I" means something -- it means that while I have earned much, I have also been given much.  And others have been given much less.  If there's someone out there who could make a huge leap forward if they just got one break....and you can help give them that break....why wouldn't you?  "Deserve's got nothing to do with it" -- I don't deserve the blessings and opportunities that I have had.  I'm just another person.  It's what you do with what you've been given that matters.  And if you aren't helping other people, what the fucking fuck?

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1 hour ago, bonnieblue said:

Hey now, some of us poor kids with single moms grow up to have jobs that are very important to society, like law....oh wait..., yeah, I think skilled manufacturers may be more useful.

So....where does your mom dance?

Asking for an entire website.

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12 hours ago, BradInATX said:
On 2/25/2020 at 1:19 PM, pacman said:
Not to pile on but B and L, in the suburbs, also have the weight of $1400 for daycare of one infant, or $2200 for one infant and a toddler, or $2900 for one infant and two toddlers in their early family lives.
f me

God I wish day care dropped to 800 bucks when they move to toddler. Mine moved out of infant 6 months ago and we went from $1400/month to $1340/month. Making it rain with my extra 60 bucks.

Shit, every time my kids reached the point that they were old enough to move from one stage to the next, the daycare raised prices. I never got to the point where things actually became cheaper.

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6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

100% this.

Am I inherently intelligent?  Sure.  Have I worked hard to get where I am?  You bet.  BUT....I was born into a stable family, with parents who took an interest in reading to me, seeing to my education, paying for me to go to private school as a kid, etc.  No major calamities hit my family during my childhood -- we were steady both physically and economically.  I was able to attend a good, cheap state university (an option that isn't as available today).  Luck, opportunity, and circumstance played an ESSENTIAL role in my success.  And had circumstances tilted the other way, they may well have played a role in limiting my success.  This phenomenon is the whole "born on third base and thinks he hit a triple" thing.

And there's nothing WRONG with that -- I don't feel guilty for being born on third base, relatively speaking.  I am lucky, I am blessed, and I don't feel guilty about that.  But, I sure felt a sense of obligation not to WASTE the opportunity I've been given.  And I also have a duty to be mindful and helpful to those around me who have not been so blessed.  If I can do something to open doors of opportunity for someone -- opening a path that can change the arc of an entire family -- then I damned well have to. I HAVE TO -- as a member of a community, a commonwealth, and a person of faith.  

"There but for the grace of God go I" means something -- it means that while I have earned much, I have also been given much.  And others have been given much less.  If there's someone out there who could make a huge leap forward if they just got one break....and you can help give them that break....why wouldn't you?  "Deserve's got nothing to do with it" -- I don't deserve the blessings and opportunities that I have had.  I'm just another person.  It's what you do with what you've been given that matters.  And if you aren't helping other people, what the fucking fuck?

For a story like yours, and mine is similar, I do kind of object to the "born on third base" rhetoric.  I'm all for noblesse oblige and giving back and the attitude of gratitude.  Lacking those is the most fundamental way in which the ladder gets pulled up.

But what you experienced isn't third base.  Maybe first, but you were rounding fast with Mom & Dad cheering you on.  It's what everyone should have.  Third base implies too much material or some other unfair or grifted advantage.

I get that it's luck, but there's a lot to what DKR said about luck.  Many of us can help provide the opportunity, but a lot are missing the "preparation" (which in the DKR sense I think means perseverance and effort, rather than actual preparation).

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For a story like yours, and mine is similar, I do kind of object to the "born on third base" rhetoric.  I'm all for noblesse oblige and giving back and the attitude of gratitude.  Lacking those is the most fundamental way in which the ladder gets pulled up.
But what you experienced isn't third base.  Maybe first, but you were rounding fast with Mom & Dad cheering you on.  It's what everyone should have.  Third base implies too much material or some other unfair or grifted advantage.
I get that it's luck, but there's a lot to what DKR said about luck.  Many of us can help provide the opportunity, but a lot are missing the "preparation" (which in the DKR sense I think means perseverance and effort, rather than actual preparation).

I do see what you’re saying. Now, MY kids were born on third, or at least second. But for me...the point is definitely that I was born rounding the bases. Other people are born without even knowing where the stadium is.
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It's a minor beef on my part, just semantics really, the notion doesn't change.  But kind of like jamming "white privilege" in people's face is not the best way to raise consciousness, the implication of unfair advantage kind of irks me a little.  There's an unnecessary stridency to it.

Hell, it's perfectly fine to say it about yourself and yours.

It's just a good way to take a positive conversation about opportunity and spreading it and turning it into something toxic.

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