TNF: Steelers @ Browns

[TexArcher 37543]

1 hour ago, Zavala said:

 

 

Is there any better proof that this was really, really egregious than the fact that James freaking Harrison thinks it's over the line?

[Pato del Muerto 52359]

Just now, TexArcher said:

Is there any better proof that this was really, really egregious than the fact that James freaking Harrison thinks it's over the line?

He only thinks that because it happened to a steeler. 

[ulukinatme 1760]

2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

He didn’t hit him with the side of the helmet, he hit him with the edge at the ear hole. 
which means:

1) more rigidity. Helmets are not designed to absorb energy in that direction. Like getting hit with the edge of a frisbee vs the middle. 
2) smaller impact area which means the force/area is increased

It looks to be that way (edge of the helmet vs. the side), but the dispute was a hammer vs. a helmet.  The hammer will still do more damage, even if the mass is the same because there's less wind resistance which leads to greater velocity (among other factors).  I'll not dispute that the edge of a helmet could cause more damage than the side of it, you and I are in agreement.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

8 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Is there any better proof that this was really, really egregious than the fact that James freaking Harrison thinks it's over the line?

I haven't been this dumbfounded since Vontez Burfict broke up the AB/Mayock fight 

[TexArcher 37543]

36 minutes ago, ulukinatme said:

Force = mass x acceleration, not stiffness.  The force can be more damaging depending on the object though and how that force is applied/concentrated into a small area.  Get a gelatin ballistics head, hit it with a hammer, then hit it with the side of a helmet and tell me which does more damage.  Even if the same person is swinging both items  with the same strength you're going to have more damage from the hammer for a variety of reasons. For one the molecules/mass in the hammer is packed in more densely which results in less air resistance and greater velocity.  Another reason would be that the force of the hammer is being focused to a small point to maximize it's energy transfer, while a helmet is broader and the force is spread out more evenly. 

Think of it as a slap vs. a punch.  The hand's mass doesn't change, but the velocity changes because of wind resistance of the open palm and arm vs. a punch coming like a tightly packed cylinder straight ahead.  You wind up with more force from the punch.

If you're gonna teach physics in here, you should probably be aware that things tend to be stronger, not weaker, when they're hollow, especially when they're curved (see: bamboo) and something without much mass can generate a tremendous amount of force at high velocity (see: a bullet).  You should probably also be aware of how circular forces work, as in you can throw anything a lot harder with an overhand pitching motion than you can with a shot put motion.

And the fact that it's plastic doesn't make it weak.  You're acting as if Garrett swung a spork at him.  No, he swung a blunt object that weighs about 5 pounds and is made of plastic engineered to withstand high speed collisions, and he swung the fuck out of it with his entire steroided-up body.

Come on, man.

Edited November 16, 2019 by TexArcher

[BlueGreySky 1000]

The stupidity in some of these posts is palpable. 

[Serak The Preparer 3429]

29 minutes ago, ulukinatme said:

It looks to be that way (edge of the helmet vs. the side), but the dispute was a hammer vs. a helmet.  The hammer will still do more damage, even if the mass is the same because there's less wind resistance which leads to greater velocity (among other factors).  I'll not dispute that the edge of a helmet could cause more damage than the side of it, you and I are in agreement.

Holy shit, you are so off here for someone who is trying to use physics.

Hint one:: do you know why cars have bumpers? If two cars (same mass, same acceleration) hit each other, and one has bumpers, which one will have more damage?

Hint two: if you are going to be hit by a car, would you rather be hit by one with bumpers or without?

In neither case is wind resistance a factor.

[Pato del Muerto 52359]

You need to specify if you mean old school bolted to the frame steel bumpers or new foam filled plastic covered numbers with crumple zones and other energy dispersing techniques. 

[ulukinatme 1760]

3 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

If you're gonna teach physics in here, you should probably be aware that things tend to be stronger, not weaker, when they're hollow, especially when they're curved (see: bamboo) and something without much mass can generate a tremendous amount of force at high velocity (see: a bullet).

And the fact that it's plastic doesn't make it weak.  You're acting as if Garrett swung a spork at him.  No, he swung a blunt object that weighs about 5 pounds and is made of plastic engineered to withstand high speed collisions, and he swung the fuck out of it with his entire steroided-up body.

Come on, man.

Tell me how the tensile strength of bamboo factors into the force it can apply to an object?  Bamboo is an incredibly strong material, there's no doubt, but given a stalk of bamboo at equal length to a steel pipe....which is going to apply a greater force given the same velocity?  The steel applies more force because of it's mass.  You could argue that the greater mass of the steel could result in a slower velocity, but honestly this whole bamboo argument is pointless.  

How does a bullet relate to Garrett's dumb ass swinging a helmet?  Is he going to swing the helmet at the same velocity of a bullet?  Does a bullet have the same wind resistance as a helmet?  Does the bullet have the same mass as the helmet, and even if it did is that mass less dense than the helmet?  I've never said that a small object can't have force, in fact I've said the opposite.  A hammer may way the same as a helmet, but it has smaller dimensions and can cause greater damage for a variety of reasons.  If the velocity is very high of course a small object can cause a lot of damage.  What if you slow a bullet down to the speed of a helmet swing?  You probably aren't even reaching the second layer of the epidermis.

[fattyflattie 4636]

5 hours ago, ulukinatme said:

Lets say I've got some experience with head injuries

Quite obviously. 

[ulukinatme 1760]

51 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Holy shit, you are so off here for someone who is trying to use physics.

Hint one:: do you know why cars have bumpers? If two cars (same mass, same acceleration) hit each other, and one has bumpers, which one will have more damage?

Hint two: if you are going to be hit by a car, would you rather be hit by one with bumpers or without?

In neither case is wind resistance a factor.

The force between the two cars is equal, but you're bringing a different variable to the equation.  The bumpers help absorb the force.  It would be like setting up a test where you hit someone with a hammer and then hit him again while he has a helmet on and you ask me which caused more damage.

That's not the argument at all.  The comment was that a hammer weighing the same as a helmet would cause the same damage assuming that the same person is swinging both, which is false.  The two objects can't have the same velocity if swung by the same person for a variety of reasons, one of which is wind resistance.  With any reduction in velocity you get a smaller amount of force.  It goes behind that though.  A hammer is more dense at the point of impact to allow for a greater transfer of energy.  The force from the side of a helmet displaces the energy over a greater area, which results in a less damaging injury.  

Edited November 16, 2019 by ulukinatme

[Steel Shank 9416]

I got your stiffness right here.

[ulukinatme 1760]

23 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Never buy a hammer that doesn’t prominently display its drag coefficient on the box.   

Pressure is higher when force is applied to a small area of impact, and dissipates as the force is applied to a larger area.  It’s not wind resistance slowing down a helmet in any material amount vis a vis a hammer as if the helmet is a parachute.  

I agree with this, the hammer is denser at the point of impact to allow for the greater transfer of energy.  I'm not saying wind resistance is the only factor, it's just one factor (however small) that would result in a lower velocity.  A 5 pound hammer will travel at a greater velocity than a 5 pound snow shovel, causing more force, but I agree that the greater factor in this is the dimensions of the hammer to allow for a more concentrated transfer of energy..

Edited November 16, 2019 by ulukinatme

[UpperWestside 6136]

1 hour ago, TexArcher said:

Is there any better proof that this was really, really egregious than the fact that James freaking Harrison thinks it's over the line?

When you have offended that guy you really have done some heinous stuff. If we get a tweet from Vontaze Burfict saying this was too much then Garrett might want to find a new career.

[Uncle Boobs 1248]

I agree with this, the hammer is denser at the point of impact to allow for the greater transfer of energy.  I'm not saying wind resistance is the only factor, it's just one factor (however small) that would result in a lower velocity.  A 5 pound hammer will travel at a greater velocity than a 5 pound snow shovel, causing more force, but I agree that the greater factor in this is the dimensions of the hammer to allow for a more concentrated transfer of energy..

What if you got hit in the head by 5 lb mini Ditka?

 

 

 

[ulukinatme 1760]

4 minutes ago, Uncle Boobs said:

What if you got hit in the head by 5 lb mini Ditka?
 

Daaaa coach!

 

[scottsins 1953]

A football helmet is a thin, plastic shell with foam inside.  It's hard, and yeah it hurts, but it's fairly unlikely you kill a man just swinging it once.  Can it happen?  Maybe, but it's unlikely.  Again, Rudolph's first reaction is to throw his hands up in disbelief, not hold his head in pain.  If you haven't been hit with a helmet before you're just speculating.  The reason helmet to helmet hits are so dangerous has less to do with the composition of the helmet itself and more to do with the mass and velocity behind it.  Take a helmet to helmet shot with someone coming at you full speed in a football situation, then take an unprotected shot with someone swinging a helmet.  Both hurt, but one is going to be more damaging than the other.  There's far more mass and decent velocity behind the normal helmet to helmet hit.

I’m a criminal defense lawyer and your deadly weapon “analysis” is just a string of incorrect irrelevant bullshit that is so far off-base that it’s difficult to refute.

Read the penal code or something. There’s definitions and everything!

[SurlyBDR 22680]

1 hour ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

I haven't been this dumbfounded since Vontez Burfict broke up the AB/Mayock fight 

[Steel Shank 9416]

Shit's gettin' real.

[honolulu horn 6157]

1 hour ago, scottsins said:

 

I’m a criminal defense lawyer and your deadly weapon “analysis” is just a string of incorrect irrelevant bullshit that is so far off-base that it’s difficult to refute.

Read the penal code or something. There’s definitions and everything!

Pesky legal notions like "assault with intent to cause serious bodily harm" or "reckless endangerment" or "attempted felony assault" have no place here. Exhibits A-C: a dumpster, a hammer, and a story about being tackled once. Case closed.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

Miles Garrett from WSBT-TV in Indiana has had a rough 24 hours lol

 

 

[Zepol87 9172]

A street fight with soft ass blows get charges.

[Trey3216 15325]

7 hours ago, ulukinatme said:

Tell me how the tensile strength of bamboo factors into the force it can apply to an object?  Bamboo is an incredibly strong material, there's no doubt, but given a stalk of bamboo at equal length to a steel pipe....which is going to apply a greater force given the same velocity?  The steel applies more force because of it's mass.  You could argue that the greater mass of the steel could result in a slower velocity, but honestly this whole bamboo argument is pointless.  

How does a bullet relate to Garrett's dumb ass swinging a helmet?  Is he going to swing the helmet at the same velocity of a bullet?  Does a bullet have the same wind resistance as a helmet?  Does the bullet have the same mass as the helmet, and even if it did is that mass less dense than the helmet?  I've never said that a small object can't have force, in fact I've said the opposite.  A hammer may way the same as a helmet, but it has smaller dimensions and can cause greater damage for a variety of reasons.  If the velocity is very high of course a small object can cause a lot of damage.  What if you slow a bullet down to the speed of a helmet swing?  You probably aren't even reaching the second layer of the epidermis.

No way huey 

[Trey3216 15325]

7 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

When you have offended that guy you really have done some heinous stuff. If we get a tweet from Vontaze Burfict saying this was too much then Garrett might want to find a new career.

Diggin up bones, diggin up bones.  Exhuming’ things that’s better left alone.  

[Pam Cummings 9595]

Lol people wanting charges. Yeah that was definitely over the line and horrible and all but the guy who got hit didn't even get knocked down.

 

You sound like a bunch of housewives with the "BUT HE COULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!!!!" bit. The hit that gave him the concussion a couple weeks ago was a lot more scary tbh.

 

I know, i know.  "BUT THAT HIT OCCURRED DURING THE COURSE OF THE GAME!!!!!" So what. This is football and there is a lot more leeway for emotional flareups. So get over it.

 

This whole thing is gonna cost Myles Garett over $1m. That's more than any of us would have to pay for swinging a helmet at a guy and catching him with a glancing blow.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Pam Cummings

[UpperWestside 6136]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28090386/vontaze-burfict-rejects-myles-garrett-comparison-blasts-roger-goodell

Was joking when I said we just needed this guy to condemn him, but here it is. 

[Iceman 2648]

1 hour ago, Pam Cummings said:

Lol people wanting charges. Yeah that was definitely over the line and horrible and all but the guy who got hit didn't even get knocked down.

 

You sound like a bunch of housewives with the "BUT HE COULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!!!!" bit. The hit that gave him the concussion a couple weeks ago was a lot more scary tbh.

 

I know, i know.  "BUT THAT HIT OCCURRED DURING THE COURSE OF THE GAME!!!!!" So what. This is football and there is a lot more leeway for emotional flareups. So get over it.

 

This whole thing is gonna cost Myles Garett over $1m. That's more than any of us would have to pay for swinging a helmet at a guy and catching him with a glancing blow.

So if it happened to a woman, how would you feel? Is there a different standard for guys? Why or why not?

 

Is a player accepting THAT risk by stepping into the arena? I don't think so. For all of the trivial shit hitting the courtrooms, this is legit.  Draw the line and define some stuff.  Set the precedent.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Iceman

[freyguy 4245]

9 minutes ago, Iceman said:

So if it happened to a woman, how would you feel? Is there a different standard for guys? Why or why not?

[EMAWesome 101]

22 hours ago, TonyTexas said:

Juan Marichal only got suspended for 8 days for hitting Johnny Roseboro in the head with a bat. 

 

Everyone knows pitchers can't hit.

[Underdog 28460]

1 hour ago, Pam Cummings said:

Lol people wanting charges. Yeah that was definitely over the line and horrible and all but the guy who got hit didn't even get knocked down.

 

You sound like a bunch of housewives with the "BUT HE COULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!!!!" bit. The hit that gave him the concussion a couple weeks ago was a lot more scary tbh.

 

I know, i know.  "BUT THAT HIT OCCURRED DURING THE COURSE OF THE GAME!!!!!" So what. This is football and there is a lot more leeway for emotional flareups. So get over it.

 

This whole thing is gonna cost Myles Garett over $1m. That's more than any of us would have to pay for swinging a helmet at a guy and catching him with a glancing blow.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

[Horn80 6075]

Have no doubt that Roger Goodell will fuck this up.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23364]

2 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

Lol people wanting charges. Yeah that was definitely over the line and horrible and all but the guy who got hit didn't even get knocked down.

 

You sound like a bunch of housewives with the "BUT HE COULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!!!!" bit. The hit that gave him the concussion a couple weeks ago was a lot more scary tbh.

 

I know, i know.  "BUT THAT HIT OCCURRED DURING THE COURSE OF THE GAME!!!!!" So what. This is football and there is a lot more leeway for emotional flareups. So get over it.

 

This whole thing is gonna cost Myles Garett over $1m. That's more than any of us would have to pay for swinging a helmet at a guy and catching him with a glancing blow.

You’re obviously not an attorney because they have extremely strong feelings about this.

[GreenspointTexas 9568]

2 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

Lol people wanting charges. Yeah that was definitely over the line and horrible and all but the guy who got hit didn't even get knocked down.

 

You sound like a bunch of housewives with the "BUT HE COULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!!!!" bit. The hit that gave him the concussion a couple weeks ago was a lot more scary tbh.

 

I know, i know.  "BUT THAT HIT OCCURRED DURING THE COURSE OF THE GAME!!!!!" So what. This is football and there is a lot more leeway for emotional flareups. So get over it.

 

This whole thing is gonna cost Myles Garett over $1m. That's more than any of us would have to pay for swinging a helmet at a guy and catching him with a glancing blow.

Youre right. Attempting to shoot someone in the head but hitting them in their ear warrants no punishment....

 

jfc

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

I just can't help but think @CHAD BRISCOE could do a better job of defending Myles Garrett than what the clowns doing so on this thread have done.

[Vic Mackey 46937]

A street fight with soft ass blows get charges.

Are we going to start handing out charges then to every fight that occurs during a sport game now? That would be a pretty ridiculous precedent to start.

Rudolph is that usual pussy who tries to start shit but then gets handled quickly and gets back what he tried to do and then acts baffled and innocent. What Garrett did was ignorant but Rudolph could have easily walked away but he didn't. Fuck both of them. Now a few of his teammates get suspended taking up for his dumb ass.

[John Smith2 127]

mason rudolf is a bitch tho

[honolulu horn 6157]

28 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Are we going to start handing out charges then to every fight that occurs during a sport game now? That would be a pretty ridiculous precedent to start.

Marty McSorley was convicted of Assault with a Deadly Weapon for using his hockey stick as a weapon during the course of the game. The victim wasn't horribly injured; he hit his head on the ice and had a concussion. No other NHL players I know of have been arrested for fighting on the ice, which is fine. They shouldn't; fights happen pretty often in the course of hockey games. But when you decide to use a piece of equipment as a weapon, you've gone beyond reasonable expectations for a game and entered into a criminal act.

[honolulu horn 6157]

29 minutes ago, John Smith2 said:

mason rudolf is a bitch tho

No argument there.

[Zavala 1384]

13 hours ago, ulukinatme said:

Force = mass x acceleration, not stiffness.  The force can be more damaging depending on the object though and how that force is applied/concentrated into a small area.  Get a gelatin ballistics head, hit it with a hammer, then hit it with the side of a helmet and tell me which does more damage.  Even if the same person is swinging both items  with the same strength you're going to have more damage from the hammer for a variety of reasons. For one the molecules/mass in the hammer is packed in more densely which results in less air resistance and greater velocity.  Another reason would be that the force of the hammer is being focused to a small point to maximize it's energy transfer, while a helmet is broader and the force is spread out more evenly. 

Think of it as a slap vs. a punch.  The hand's mass doesn't change, but the velocity changes because of wind resistance of the open palm and arm vs. a punch coming like a tightly packed cylinder straight ahead.  You wind up with more force from the punch.

Holy fuck you are an idiot. The impact energy is impacted by stiffness. That's why when a soccer ball hits your head it's less painful than a baseball. The energy dissipates into the object. Jesus it's like talking to an adult child

Your understanding of physics is pathetic. The surface are of contact is generally the same between the two. It's not like he's hitting him with the entire area of the helmet as you describe. Fuck. I can't read anymore of your blather dude, sorry.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Zavala

[Zavala 1384]

12 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Dude I was responding to the specific example of people going to jail for fighting at intramural football games. And yes, the rule of law is suspended for stuff like this. Watch. 

Lulz point me to the penal code where it says laws are suspended within a sport setting

[Beau Vine 54015]

17 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

This also happened in the preseason, and the guy on the dolphins was suspended for 1 game. But again, not a primetime game where everyone was watching so the optics weren’t as bad. That’s the only thing the nfl cares about. 

Also happened in the CFL earlier this year -- swinger got 1 game.  Watch bottom of screen at about 35 yard line:

 

[Beau Vine 54015]

3

Edited November 16, 2019 by Beau Vine

[Your Mom 4798]

I'm no Rudolph fan but I don't see how he has any fault here.  I thought it was pretty clear his hand got caught in the facemask during the tackle.  He seemed to just be trying to free his hand before his wrist got broke.  And as far as running back into the mix after they pulled Garrett off of him... well I'd expect every motherfucker on my team to be running into the mix when a guy got his helmet ripped off like that.  At that point he did nothing more than run up on a guy and give him a push.  How many times every game does a player shove another one?  It's not even worth a flag most of the time.  To use that as evidence that he started all this shit is pretty weak, IMHO.  

Imagine a sooner rips Sam's helmet off.  I'm gonna be pissed at every teammate that turns and walks away from that, Sam included.  It was beyond the point of walking away and cooling off right then.  

[Treefidy 1463]

16 hours ago, ulukinatme said:

A helmet is hard, for sure, but the plastic shell is thin and has some give to it.  More so on the sides and definitely less so on the crown, but it was the side or edge of the helmet that hit Rudolph and not the top of it.  Science says power = mass x velocity.  Garrett can certainly generate a lot of velocity with the helmet, but there's far more mass with velocity behind a player coming full speed with a helmet to helmet hit.  He's putting his whole body into it, and there can be no give with the helmet while the head is inside.  

Garrett can certainly hurt a man with a helmet, of that there can be no doubt, especially if he had used the top of it.  I'm still advocating he miss the entire season as well as games next season, which would be more than what Haynesworth got for cleats to the unprotected head of Guronde.  I just think it's unlikely that death would have resulted from one swing, especially given Rudolph's reaction to it and the fact I've taken a swing like that.

You're an idiot.  aggy wasn't paying attention to what part of the helmet he was using to hit with.  And YOU should go back and watch the video.  He is getting dragged away by 71 but he's trying to get at MR, not trying to swat him away in defense.  And yeah, the 1st hit didn't and might not have ever killed him, but he sure as fuck was lining up for a second shot that pouncey stopped.  

Just get over it, MG was not trying to defend himself, he was trying to brain Rudolph.  

And before you post back bullshit, I have been hit in the head by a helmet after mine came off and it hurt.  That's before H2H was penalty and before losing your helmet prohibited you from continuing to play.  It's plastic, but it isn't all plastic as the forehead part reinforced by face mask doesn't give.   I'm pretty sure I could kill someone swinging a helmet with a couple swings, MG is lucky he didn't completely fuck up.  

[Beau Vine 54015]

12 hours ago, ulukinatme said:

Tell me how the tensile strength of bamboo factors into the force it can apply to an object?  Bamboo is an incredibly strong material, there's no doubt, but given a stalk of bamboo at equal length to a steel pipe....which is going to apply a greater force given the same velocity?  The steel applies more force because of it's mass.  You could argue that the greater mass of the steel could result in a slower velocity, but honestly this whole bamboo argument is pointless.  

How does a bullet relate to Garrett's dumb ass swinging a helmet?  Is he going to swing the helmet at the same velocity of a bullet?  Does a bullet have the same wind resistance as a helmet?  Does the bullet have the same mass as the helmet, and even if it did is that mass less dense than the helmet?  I've never said that a small object can't have force, in fact I've said the opposite.  A hammer may way the same as a helmet, but it has smaller dimensions and can cause greater damage for a variety of reasons.  If the velocity is very high of course a small object can cause a lot of damage.  What if you slow a bullet down to the speed of a helmet swing?  You probably aren't even reaching the second layer of the epidermis.

Gotdamn, the physics nerds are taking over!

[Beau Vine 54015]

2 hours ago, Underdog said:

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

Takes one to know one!

<swish>

Edited November 16, 2019 by Beau Vine

[SHOOTER12 8789]

17 hours ago, ulukinatme said:

I've been hit with a swinging helmet before.  I've also been pushed head first into the end of a dumpster while playing flag football:

Lets say I've got some experience with head injuries and I'll take the swinging helmet.

You obviously did based on some of your views.

[wood 11186]

This thread is moving too fast for me to keep up with, so my bad if someone has already brought this up ... 

With the league making such a huge show of protecting players from brain injuries and protecting QBs in particular, I just don't see how they can justify anything short of making Garrett a prime example in this case. He took a QB's head protection off his head, leaving his head unprotected, and then hit him in the head with it.

If they don't drop the hammer on this guy, they'll appear ridiculous, hypocritical, and not at all serious about protecting players from head injuries. Albert Haynesworth got 5 games for stepping on a player's helmeted head. Garrett should get twice that at a minimum imho, preferably a whole season. 6 now and 10 next year. 

[JBJ 3649]

17 hours ago, ulukinatme said:

Science says power = mass x velocity.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[wood 11186]

1 minute ago, JBJ said:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Heh, yep. He's thinking of momentum. But hey, he's rolling....