Is Tom actually a worse coach than Charlie?

[hookem48 4,631]

they both had/have over rated S&C programs, that's for damn sure, we continue to get pushed around all over the damn field

[CurlyDumps 4,439]

Charlie’s double digit losses:

2014

BYU L 41-7

Baylor L 28-7

KSU L 23-0

TCU L 48-10

Ark L 31-7

2015

ND L 38-3

TCU L 50-7

ISU L 24-0

WVU L 38-20

2016

OSU L 49-31

TCU L 31-9

 

Tom’s double digit losses

2017

MD L 41-31

2018

OU L 39-27

2019 

TCU L 37-27

 

Double digit losses:

Charlie - 11

Tom - 3

20+ point losses:

Charlie - 9

Tom - 0

30+ point losses:

Charlie - 4 

Tom - 0

 

Virtually 20% of Charlie’s losses were by 30+ points or more, ya’ll are actually saying they’re “about the same” or the only difference between the two is quarterback play. That’s fucking laughable.

Ya’ll are going full Chuckles after 2 point road loss to the 2nd best team in the conference per FEI ratings. Charlie lost to these caliber teams by 20+ on the reg.

[GreenspointTexas 9,559]

Tom has this offseason and its hirings and firings to avoid being Charlie 2.0

[Vic Mackey 46,927]

Good lord no. Charlie was beyond bad. This shit show season was Charlie's best year.

[Junior Miller 1,502]

2 hours ago, Hard Times said:

Instead a very over rated Baylor team that at least avoids beating themselves.

[Shaggy3.0 1,695]

Anyone who does not learn from, and avoid, the mistakes of his predecessor is a fool. Given the amount of weight mensa places on his mensaness, he should have avoided the coordinator shit show. He has more talent than charlie but made the same mistakes. Now he’s regressing hard. I don”t think charlie was all there, but i supported him to the end. He was a likable dude. Mensa has 0 excuse to fail this bad. Open check book to get the best staff. Facility improvements. Whatever he needed. But his arrogance (think casey horny) and small man G5 mentality is his downfall. That makes him worse than charlie.

[Tom Chairman 264]

No.

[Spankytoes 1,735]

1 hour ago, SwanderedTalent said:

I'm not drinking Kool-Aid. Ehlinger is better than Garrett Gilbert and Shane Buechele were while at Texas. It's debatable if he is better than they were at SMU. He's better than Case McCoy and Tyrone Swoopes ever were. It's my personal opinion he's better than non-concussed David Ash, but I don't care enough to argue it. 

Ehlinger is absolutely good enough to win a conference championship; his team isn't. He's not the problem. He might be the problem if we were in the running for a national championship. I don't think he's that good. But he's good enough to win the shitty-ass Big 12.

Buechele looks better at SMU than he ever did here. So did GG, who is still on an NFL roster. Perhaps our coaching is stifling their development. Yet, look at Tim Tebow. Perhaps a good football coach (terrible person) isn’t enough to overcome a player’s deficiencies. Sam is Sam. He is regressing rather than progressing. I say give Roshon the shot with nothing left to play for. Make him earn it back 

[maninblack 7,974]

2 hours ago, closetojumping said:

Herman is easily as rock stupid as Strong. But, he won the Sugar Bowl last year, so now we’ve got to endure at least another two years of his worthless fucking ass doing whatever he can to bury Texas Football. Our best hope is that he overdoses doing lines off of a stripper’s ass in the offseason, because we’re stuck with him for awhile otherwise. 

[mdmost 42,827]

He's not a worse coach than Charlie. We're not getting blown out like we did with Charlie which made things feel even more hopeless. We're in games a lot closer than we ever were with Charlie. But yet, we're still finding ways to lose games in inexplicable ways like jumping offsides on a 4th down. We all thought we were getting this genius-level head coach which has never materialized. Even with the win over OU last year, we almost blew that one like Baylor did last night. Instead, we got a below average coach who's at least a little better than the previous one but still isn't the guy. And yeah, we're stuck with him for at least 2 more years because of that Sugar Bowl win. We live and die with Sam and what he can do. It's obvious that it's not Herman that stirs the drink, but Sam.

I made the comment as mdleast and I were watching the Oregon game last night that it's sad how much I have to covet other teams offense systems. How other teams can make running backs perform and be featured whereas ours get barely a carry in the 2nd half. How other teams can get their QBs mobile and making plays. How others seem to effectively run WR screens. Yet we can't with a guy who was supposed to have brought in this revolutionary offense. We were sold a bill of goods but maybe that's on us for being naive. I mean the results of his time at Houston where he lost to inferior teams like SMU, Navy and Memphis were all there for us to see. We knew he was capable of shit games where his team looked unprepared. This is why I don't bother to read practice reports or preseason articles about this program. I don't need to read or hear how things have improved because we never fully see it on the field. I want to see it on the field. The Sugar Bowl was the only time last season where you saw the capability of this program under Tom Herman. And then were did that go?

[BornOrange1955 77]

2 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Not as bad as Charlie is not our standard.

Maybe it's time we recognize our standard is a deluded one. Four national championships in 150 years! Three Big XII titles in 20 years! Texas football has won a ton of games over the years but, really, haven't we lost more as favorites, choked away more championships than just about anybody in history? We rarely over achieve.

 

[bschoolprof 6,232]

16 minutes ago, mdmost said:

 

I made the comment as mdleast and I were watching the Oregon game last night that it's sad how much I have to covet other teams offense systems. How other teams can make running backs perform and be featured whereas ours get barely a carry in the 2nd half. How other teams can get their QBs mobile and making plays. How others seem to effectively run WR screens. Yet we can't with a guy who was supposed to have brought in this revolutionary offense. We were sold a bill of goods but maybe that's on us for being naive. I mean the results of his time at Houston where he lost to inferior teams like SMU, Navy and Memphis were all there for us to see. We knew he was capable of shit games where his team looked unprepared. This is why I don't bother to read practice reports or preseason articles about this program. I don't need to read or hear how things have improved because we never fully see it on the field. I want to see it on the field. The Sugar Bowl was the only time last season where you saw the capability of this program under Tom Herman. And then were did that go?

If you watched Herman's offense at UH, it was a ton of hero ball with greg ward jr, who bailed the team out mainly with his legs once the play broke down (sound familiar?).  The offense itself was not that impressive schematically and Herman's run game with RBs was pretty shitty.  Sam is not athletic enough to do that here, and he is not a good enough passer to really punish good defenses when they shut down our run game.  Combine that with our predictable play calling and the 3-4 passing plays we seem to have, and you basically have the Texas offense.  OK, but not very good we we need it.  

[Sejjr 3,246]

At no point in the Charlie Strong era did Texas "appear" to have been a good team, even briefly. Nor did Charlie's teams ever have a regression this staggering in one season. I admit that I actually thought we were a top 10 caliber team 3 weeks into this year. I admit I am a fucking dumb ass. 

[victory88 5,654]

-  This offense has a QB that has proven he can win big games with a good game plan.  
-  This offense has a LT that is projected as a 1st round pick, a two time all ACC RG, and a senior center.

-  This team has a WR that is playing at an all American level and another WR that is a physical mismatch and a future NFL player.  Round out the WR corps with a talented but young player in Eagles and the Gatorade national player of the year in Smith that showed us through the first few games how talented he was.

-  This team has a RB that was # 1 in the stare that was being heavily recruited by LSU, tOSU, UGA, and Bama.

With all this talent, this offense is barely functional in their 3rd year with this pro spread system.  Since LSU, ou, TCU, kstate, and isu shut this offense down.  Every player has regressed.  That is coaching guys.  7 coaches including the HC are getting paid big bucks to have the offense clicking.  Yet we can barely put together more than 2-3 solid drives in our games out side LSU.  Make no mistake, a good coach would have this offense putting up 40-50 points a game...

 

Herman knows our offense is broken.  He said so himself post game.  He’s just a fucking moron and I have no confidence in him and his drinking buddies to fix this.

Edited November 17, 2019 by victory88

[2300 Nueces 163]

10 minutes ago, victory88 said:

-  This offense has a QB that has proven he can win big games with a good game plan.  
-  This offense has a LT that is projected as a 1st round pick, a two time all ACC RG, and a senior center.

-  This team has a WR that is playing at an all American level and another WR that is a physical mismatch and a future NFL player.  Round out the WR corps with a talented but young player in Eagles and the Gatorade national player of the year in Smith that showed us through the first few games how talented he was.

-  This team has a RB that was # 1 in the stare that was being heavily recruited by LSU, tOSU, UGA, and Bama.

With all this talent, this offense is barely functional in their 3rd year with this pro spread system.  Since LSU, ou, TCU, kstate, and isu shut this offense down.  Every player has regressed.  That is coaching guys.  7 coaches including the HC are getting paid big bucks to have the offense clicking.  Yet we can barely put together more than 2-3 solid drives in our games out side LSU.  Make no mistake, a good coach would have this offense putting up 40-50 points a game...

 

Herman knows our offense is broken.  He said so himself post game.  He’s just a fucking moron and I have no confidence in him and his drinking buddies to fix this.

Herman is no different than the ogre who smashes red bull cans on his head at practices.  He will need to bring in some creativity.  The sooner, the better.  Problem for Herman, like Stoops, he may be the one replaced if his new creativity succeeds.

Edited November 17, 2019 by 2300 Nueces

[Shaggy3.0 1,695]

1 minute ago, 2300 Nueces said:

Herman is no different than the ogre who smashes red bull cans on his head at practices.  He will need to bring in some creativity.  The sooner, the better.

This sounds good and all, until you realize he doesn't have the ability to identify and hire decent coordinators.  Meh, really?  haha OK

[El Squared 1,792]

If Densa had Swoopes instead of Sam, they would be twins. Sam, LJH, CJ bailed out Densa. 

[victory88 5,654]

1 minute ago, Shaggy3.0 said:

This sounds good and all, until you realize he doesn't have the ability to identify and hire decent coordinators.  Meh, really?  haha OK

Yup, he brought a failed fired OC in beck.  A failed OC in Mehringer, a DC that no power 5 team wanted in Orlando.  He rounded those failed hires with a bunch of coaches that were coaching at Texas state and UH with ZERO power 5 experience in Naviar, Warihime, and Washington.  He brought a DL coach that won’t recruit and was previously fired at Texas.  His two decent hires were Drayton and Hand... one of whom has failed miserably at his job as associate head coach.  You know who his hires will be if he’s forced to make changes... a fired coach in Fedora as his OC and a fired coach in Ash as his DC.  Get ready for more of the same.  No decent coordinators will come here knowing Herman will force then to run power spread out of 11 personnel.  No decent DC will come here either seeing that he will only have 3 position coaches to work with.  Lastly, we have seen this failed experiment with Gilbert/Cumbie search under Charlie.  Good and talented coordinators don’t join a sinking ship.

[Shaggy3.0 1,695]

1 minute ago, El Squared said:

If Densa had Swoopes instead of Sam, they would be twins. Sam, LJH, CJ bailed out Densa. 

Can't believe you forgot Dicker the Kicker.  Three game-winning fgs against ousux, KU and KSU.  And think about this: if Dicker misses the kick against KU, would Tom be here on T+2?  

[C-Man 27,029]

22 minutes ago, victory88 said:

-  This offense has a QB that has proven he can win big games with a good game plan.  
-  This offense has a LT that is projected as a 1st round pick, a two time all ACC RG, and a senior center.

-  This team has a WR that is playing at an all American level and another WR that is a physical mismatch and a future NFL player.  Round out the WR corps with a talented but young player in Eagles and the Gatorade national player of the year in Smith that showed us through the first few games how talented he was.

-  This team has a RB that was # 1 in the stare that was being heavily recruited by LSU, tOSU, UGA, and Bama.

With all this talent, this offense is barely functional in their 3rd year with this pro spread system.  Since LSU, ou, TCU, kstate, and isu shut this offense down.  Every player has regressed.  That is coaching guys.  7 coaches including the HC are getting paid big bucks to have the offense clicking.  Yet we can barely put together more than 2-3 solid drives in our games out side LSU.  Make no mistake, a good coach would have this offense putting up 40-50 points a game...

 

Herman knows our offense is broken.  He said so himself post game.  He’s just a fucking moron and I have no confidence in him and his drinking buddies to fix this.

[Gatorubet 30,083]

4 hours ago, Hefeweizen said:

He's meadiokra..

 

Charlie was terribad.

 

Both suck and not our standard.

Can a standard not be met for so long that it ceases to become a standard?    And if so, how long?   

And do all flagships now have to worry that increased game day coverage (er'body on da teevee now) negates one big reasons to go to flagships - getting national exposure -  and does the portal negate another advantage - that of financial resources allowing the collection of talent that has to stay once signed?

[Gatorubet 30,083]

29 minutes ago, victory88 said:

-  This offense has a QB that has proven he can win big games with a good game plan.  
-  This offense has a LT that is projected as a 1st round pick, a two time all ACC RG, and a senior center.

-  This team has a WR that is playing at an all American level and another WR that is a physical mismatch and a future NFL player.  Round out the WR corps with a talented but young player in Eagles and the Gatorade national player of the year in Smith that showed us through the first few games how talented he was.

-  This team has a RB that was # 1 in the stare that was being heavily recruited by LSU, tOSU, UGA, and Bama.

 

If Mullen had those guys at Florida, we'd be undefeated.  Hell, if Mullen had just your o-line we'd be undefeated.

[clapclapclap 9,000]

4 hours ago, Hard Times said:

What's so sickening is this season was set up perfect for Texas. B12 down, some really good QB's gone, many new coaches implementing new systems. A perfect chance to win the conference, but because of mind boggling coaching decisions and absolute stupidity on the field Texas won't even be in the B12 championship game. Instead a very over rated Baylor team that at least avoids beating themselves.

 

[2300 Nueces 163]

5 minutes ago, Shaggy3.0 said:

This sounds good and all, until you realize he doesn't have the ability to identify and hire decent coordinators.  Meh, really?  haha OK

It appears TH is far too emotional.  All the cast off coaches getting gigs at Texas is an example of this.  Critical thinkers with a winning edge would look for an actual winner with fresh ideas but alas we are busy reviving the careers of the average to poor coach.

 

Elite Coaches - X's and O's matched with elite talent, they tend to attract each other.  Think Riley and his QB's.  They win with young and older players

Average Coaches - These guys preach culture (alignment) and rely on older high talent guys to get wins.  Younger players rarely develop until they "learn on the field" or wash out.

Poor Coaches -  These guys lose with whoever plays for them.  They have a chaotic culture and have no ryhme or reason in their schematics. 

TH is average.  CS is poor.  MB is average.  SS is poor.  Mackovic was average.  I am convinced that Belmont does not want to risk losing face with what may come from rolling the dice and getting an elite coach.  Belmont is comfortable with average and can expect a lock down culture which does not rock the boat or risk embarrassment.  Belmont is also comfortable with a poor coach as long as he is the "right" guy, see Shaka Smart.  Get used to average to below average results, it's the Texas way.

[Stunns38 3,357]

Herman will be here next year even if we finish 6-6

Question, even though our staff is shit, they seem to be good recruiters. Is Tom himself a good recruiter? So if the shit staff is fired, does that hurt recruiting badly? The recruits are mostly there for their position coaches and not the head coach.

* Meh and Warehime sucks all around so they must be fired, and banned from coaching at even the G5 level.

[CurlyDumps 4,439]

11 minutes ago, El Squared said:

If Densa had Swoopes instead of Sam, they would be twins. Sam, LJH, CJ bailed out Densa. 

Even the best QB’s in the world are only worth 7.5 points at most according to Oddsmakers.

 Not even Aaron Rodgers could have bailed Charlie out of those 11 double digit losses.

[fattyflattie 4,636]

4 hours ago, Lonestar88 said:

forced to play a WR and a TE at QB the way Charlie was, he’d be just as bad.

The fact Strong couldn’t get a QB only separates them further.   For the record, I voted no but also wanted to pick they are almost the same.  Should be able to choose both, imo. 

[PsychMike 1,537]

Herman may be about to become our very own Coach .500 and we may have to acknowledge him on June 6 every year. FML.

[scottsins 1,953]

We also haven’t elected to kickoff both halves, so that’s a plus. 

 

We did exactly that in TH’s first game/loss vs MD.

 

The only difference is that the ref chose to clarify/ask/assist the Texas player who elected to kick both halves.

 

It was documented and briefly discussed on TOS, but it’s way easier to just point to that glaring example.

 

To answer the question from the OP:

 

No, Herman is not a worse HC than strong. However the edge is so marginal that it’s meaningless.

 

* With the exception being that CFS without question fucks up the end of the KSU game/clock management.

 

Like, if we had actually lost to KU, I wonder how different perception would be right now.

 

[Liquor and Poker 3,659]

He's not even close to as bad as Charlie.

But he's still nowhere near good enough.  

Edited November 18, 2019 by Liquor and Poker
I have my reasons.

[DanTheHorn 4,896]

Tom finally had the deer in the headlights tone today. Yet it avoided the deer in the headlights look that Charlie had so often after losses. So I guess that makes him slightly better because he is still trying to think. Charlie did not know what to think.

[C-Man 27,029]

On 11/17/2019 at 11:55 AM, CurlyDumps said:

Even the best QB’s in the world are only worth 7.5 points at most according to Oddsmakers.

 Not even Aaron Rodgers could have bailed Charlie out of those 11 double digit losses.

Impossible to extrapolate NFL stats to apply to college on something like this. Swoopes was not a Texas-level QB. Nice kid, just not very good.

[SA-KC_Horn 1,293]

Losing is losing no matter how it looks.

We all had high expectations after the Sugar Bowl, now we're back to square one.

[The Earl of Texas 3,131]

1 hour ago, Liquor and Poker said:

He's not even close to as bad as Charlie.

But he's still nowhere near good enough.  

This. Asking this question, and not only not having it shot down immediately but some of your supporting responses, shows some of y’all are too mad to think straight. Charlie oversaw a Chernobyl type situation.

Doesn’t get Tom off the hook, but there is no comparison between the two.

Edited November 18, 2019 by The Earl of Texas

[CurlyDumps 4,439]

18 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Impossible to extrapolate NFL stats to apply to college on something like this. Swoopes was not a Texas-level QB. Nice kid, just not very good.

I agree, but at least it's something to work with. It gives an idea of what a college QB might worth. I found another article from The Action Network - one of their analysts thinks Tua is worth the same amount (7) to a Bama spread. So maybe it does extrapolate a little bit?  lol Charlie's still a failure with Tua at QB. 

Shit, Charlie went into this season with a serviceable 5th year senior and he's gonna finish 4-8 or 5-7 this year in the AAC.

The notion floating around this thread (and others) that the only difference between these two coaches is QB play is ludicrous.

[C-Man 27,029]

19 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

I agree, but at least it's something to work with. It gives an idea of what a college QB might worth. I found another article from The Action Network - one of their analysts thinks Tua is worth the same amount (7) to a Bama spread. So maybe it does extrapolate a little bit?  lol Charlie's still a failure with Tua at QB. 

Shit, Charlie went into this season with a serviceable 5th year senior and he's gonna finish 4-8 or 5-7 this year in the AAC.

The notion floating around this thread (and others) that the only difference between these two coaches is QB play is ludicrous.

It might not be the only difference but it's certainly part of the calculus.

[Nueces River Rat 5,529]

At denial?   Yes.

With Arrogance?  Yes

Being a punch able prick?  Yes 

Coaching?   Same level

 

[Atticus 3,920]

At least Charlie was losing to the good TCU, Baylor, KState, and Tech teams. We’re making these bad and average teams look solid to good by comparison

[BradWilcox 115]

Can't see anyone thinking Tom is as bad as Cholly. What IS alarming though is UT being 2 last second FG's away from being 4-6 right now. Think about that. Some heads better roll at the end of this season.

[runthebone 7,931]

Maybe not worse, but the fact this is even a question makes it pretty clear what we have to do.

[Slacks 6,791]

If TH had Swoopes as QB, we'd be a 3 win team...

Argue.

[TexasEd 8,064]

On 11/17/2019 at 1:56 AM, C-Man said:

 

Saw somebody earlier tonight say the only difference between Herman and Strong is Sam Ehlinger. Sadly, that’s not far from the truth.

 

I said that after the Kansas game and was ridiculed.  Proving to be right.  Offensive play calling under Tom is even handcuffing Sam to be worse than he would under a different staff.

[hookem48 4,631]

On 11/17/2019 at 11:18 AM, victory88 said:

-  This offense has a QB that has proven he can win big games with a good game plan.  
-  This offense has a LT that is projected as a 1st round pick, a two time all ACC RG, and a senior center.

-  This team has a WR that is playing at an all American level and another WR that is a physical mismatch and a future NFL player.  Round out the WR corps with a talented but young player in Eagles and the Gatorade national player of the year in Smith that showed us through the first few games how talented he was.

-  This team has a RB that was # 1 in the stare that was being heavily recruited by LSU, tOSU, UGA, and Bama.

With all this talent, this offense is barely functional in their 3rd year with this pro spread system.  Since LSU, ou, TCU, kstate, and isu shut this offense down.  Every player has regressed.  That is coaching guys.  7 coaches including the HC are getting paid big bucks to have the offense clicking.  Yet we can barely put together more than 2-3 solid drives in our games out side LSU.  Make no mistake, a good coach would have this offense putting up 40-50 points a game...

 

Herman knows our offense is broken.  He said so himself post game.  He’s just a fucking moron and I have no confidence in him and his drinking buddies to fix this.

who's projecting Cosmi as a first round pick? Braun was from a triple option offense and our senior center is a fucking jag along with the right side of the line. DD is playing great, CJ gets manhandled at the line by 180 pound  dbs way too often to be called a physical mismatch.  Ingram ain't all that and it doesn't matter who was recruiting him.  Eagles is inconsistent as hell. Smith muffed that punt, got criticized for the first time in his athletic life and basically quit. Sam is also inconsistent as hell. We're not  that good, we just aren't.

[Valmy77 13,093]

No. Talk about damning with faint praise.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Valmy77

[Leanderman 2,266]

We were a couple of missed field goals away from a couple more losses. Not much of an improvement.

[Valmy77 13,093]

7 minutes ago, Leanderman said:

We were a couple of missed field goals away from a couple more losses. Not much of an improvement.

I guess. However Chuck would be down by 30 at the half and shit. Tom at least somehow always keeps it close. So he is better.

I don't mean that to be some kind of gushing praise for Herman though. Somehow, no matter how shitty or great Herman's teams play it always ends up a one score game.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Valmy77

[Bevo 13,516]

I

On 11/17/2019 at 9:27 AM, Vic Mackey said:

Good lord no. Charlie was beyond bad. This shit show season was Charlie's best year.

I was just going to go with No.

[Horn80 6,075]

Herman gets the recruits but results are not showing up in wins and this failure falls squarely on the coaches.  

[DaysOff 7,843]

Charlie, Ed Price, Herman, Chevigny

The Mt. Rushmore of Texas suck

[MrBig 5,281]

18 hours ago, Snacks said:

If TH had Swoopes as QB, we'd be a 3 win team...

Argue.

Add Nick Rose as your Kicker in there.