2020 General MLB off-season

[wild_turkey 3159]

15 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

That’s more than I thought they’d get.  It’ll be forgotten in a few years. 

Kinda like how people forgot about Deflategate, except that we didn't.

[ss13 1832]

But does anyone besides the hardcore Pats-haters still care about it? No. 

[immortal13 4059]

I care

[ss13 1832]

These two are pretty good. 

 

 

 

[David Dennison 18875]

That's some expert level trolling by Yu Darvish.

[UpperWestside 6169]

If Manfred wasn't going to vacate the 2017 World Series (He should have taken that drastic step) he should've gone further with the loss of draft picks and frozen them out of international signings for at a minimum of three years. 

I could not care less what organization had to be the one to take a more drastic penalty. I just do not believe this punishment will deter anyone wanting to cheat. You vacate titles and then we've got something major. Hopefully Cora gets a banhammer of at least three years.

And Carlos Beltran should not be allowed to skate on this. That worthless fuck should be banned from the game for at least three years. Then again managing in Flushing with the shitbag Long Islanders in the Wilpons being your bosses is its own special punishment.

[immortal13 4059]

2 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

If Manfred wasn't going to vacate the 2017 World Series (He should have taken that drastic step) he should've gone further with the loss of draft picks and frozen them out of international signings for at a minimum of three years. 

I could not care less what organization had to be the one to take a more drastic penalty. I just do not believe this punishment will deter anyone wanting to cheat. You vacate titles and then we've got something major. Hopefully Cora gets a banhammer of at least three years.

And Carlos Beltran should not be allowed to skate on this. That worthless fuck should be banned from the game for at least three years. Then again managing in Flushing with the shitbag Long Islanders in the Wilpons being your bosses is its own special punishment.

It's a tainted title now anyway

Edited January 14, 2020 by immortal13

[David Dennison 18875]

Just now, immortal13 said:

It a tainted title now anyway

Sure doesn't feel like it. 

[immortal13 4059]

It will sink in eventually 

[David Dennison 18875]

Just now, immortal13 said:

It will sink in eventually 

I don't think so. This is over and the Astros still have their hardware and records.

 

[UpperWestside 6169]

9 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

It's a tainted title now anyway

I mean it is. The hardcore fans of the sport will definitely look at it like that and realize this title has an asterisk. The Sox title from the very next season will have that amongst the hardcore fans. I work with a hardcore Mets fan who just loves the sport overall. He feels pretty strongly that MLB needed to do more. He said it hurts him to see baseball take a black eye like this.The casual fan will likely not give a damn about this punishment. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by UpperWestside

[immortal13 4059]

3 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I mean it is. The hardcore fans of the sport will definitely look at it like that and realize this title has an asterisk. The Sox title from the very next season will have that amongst the hardcore fans. I work with a hardcore Mets fan who just loves the sport overall. He feels pretty strongly that MLB needed to do more. He said it hurts him to see baseball take a black eye like this.The casual fan will likely not give a damn about this punishment. 

They should've learned their lesson over the steroid scandal back in the 90's but they didn't 

[David Dennison 18875]

1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

They should've learned their lesson over the steroid scandal back in the 90's but they didn't 

It's baseball. It's filthy. It always has been. It always will be.

MLB isn't going to pick too deeply at this particular scab. 

The Astros got dinged a little for show and now we all move on to the next scandal.

[wild_turkey 3159]

I don't think so. This is over and the Astros still have their hardware and records.

Barry Bonds is still the all time HR leader.

[UpperWestside 6169]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Sure doesn't feel like it. 

It is, but again the sport is made up of mostly casual fans so it just blows over because of that. If baseball were still the actual National Pastime and this was the judgment handed down then Manfred would be out of a job tomorrow. Since baseball is just third on the depth chart of sports in our country none of this ridiculously light punishment matters. Slap on the wrist and does nothing to deter further cheating.

[UpperWestside 6169]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

They should've learned their lesson over the steroid scandal back in the 90's but they didn't 

Baseball never learns their lesson. It's comical how bad they continue to screw up things on really any decision whether it is big or small.

[David Dennison 18875]

7 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

It is, but again the sport is made up of mostly casual fans so it just blows over because of that. If baseball were still the actual National Pastime and this was the judgment handed down then Manfred would be out of a job tomorrow. Since baseball is just third on the depth chart of sports in our country none of this ridiculously light punishment matters. Slap on the wrist and does nothing to deter further cheating.

So like football and its harsh penalties for, oh, let's say, the New England Patriots?

[UpperWestside 6169]

Just now, David Dennison said:

So like football and its harsh penalties for, oh, let's say, the New England Patriots?

I watch New England because of Brady. That is pretty much it. I had a team for a very long time, but I decided to just enjoy watching football so I watched him beginning a few years ago. I know you love the gotcha moments, but not so much here. Your team cheated its way to a title and got off fairly unscathed. 

[UpperWestside 6169]

Just now, David Dennison said:

So like football and its harsh penalties for, oh, let's say, the New England Patriots?

I watch New England because of Brady. That is pretty much it. I had a team for a very long time, but I decided to just enjoy watching football so I watched him beginning a few years ago. I know you love the gotcha moments, but not so much here. Your team cheated its way to a title and got off fairly unscathed. 

[David Dennison 18875]

Just now, UpperWestside said:

I watch New England because of Brady. That is pretty much it. I had a team for a very long time, but I decided to just enjoy watching football so I watched him beginning a few years ago. I know you love the gotcha moments, but not so much here. Your team cheated its way to a title and got off fairly unscathed. 

And if the cheating that was done was the age old offense of sign stealing, I'm OK with the punishment.

After all, it's just sign stealing. There aren't many things that are as much a part of the game as sign stealing.

[UpperWestside 6169]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And if the cheating that was done was the age old offense of sign stealing, I'm OK with the punishment.

After all, it's just sign stealing. There aren't many things that are as much a part of the game as sign stealing.

When you use technology to cheat you crossed a line. A guy standing at 2nd relaying things is part of the game. Using a centerfield camera and sending a feed to a hallway and then using trashcans or whatever the hell they did to tell batters what pitch they would see is a ridiculous amount of cheating. If I remember right the Astros title DVD actually had some accidental footage of the hallway setup in it of how they cheated.

The only Astros title you witnessed thus far in your lifetime came because of cheating. Kinda sad to be honest that they resorted to that.

Edited January 14, 2020 by UpperWestside

[David Dennison 18875]

1 hour ago, UpperWestside said:

When you use technology to cheat you crossed a line. A guy standing at 2nd relaying things is part of the game. Using a centerfield camera and sending a feed to a hallway and then using trashcans or whatever the hell they did to tell batters what pitch they would see is a ridiculous amount of cheating. If I remember right the Astros title DVD actually had some accidental footage of the hallway setup in it of how they cheated.

The only Astros title you witnessed thus far in your lifetime came because of cheating. Kinda sad to be honest that they resorted to that.

And I'm fine with that.

[Post Oak 20226]

 

[Texaspython 231]

7 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Sure doesn't feel like it. 

You’re being far too obvious. It bothers you as it should. The Astros need to clean their act up.

[DaysOff 7951]

I thought it was just post season.  wow.  I guess Altuve's MVP is in question also.

That motherfucker swings at every pitch regardless of location. He's not listening to banging trash cans.

 

[Beau Vine 54244]

Astros snitched more than Fiers apparently:

Quote

Two sources familiar with the investigation, which lasted three months and included more than 70,000 e-mails and 60 interviews, said various Astros personnel told MLB investigators about eight other teams who used technology to steal signs in 2017 or 2018

 

[aggie08 21504]

12 hours ago, ss13 said:

But does anyone besides the hardcore Pats-haters still care about it? No. 

The Pats winning 3 Super Bowls post-Deflategate certainly helped the casual fan realize that its importance was way overblown.

We'll see how Houston does going forward.

[David Dennison 18875]

3 hours ago, Texaspython said:

You’re being far too obvious. It bothers you as it should. The Astros need to clean their act up.

And that's fair.

[Napoleon 8682]

The trophies should be returned (Houston 2017 & Boston 2018) and the winners should be a blank entry, just like the 2005 Heisman (that the voters should have given to Vince in the first place).

[ChickenSandwich 9839]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Astros snitched more than Fiers apparently:

 

And the suspensions should be coming for all 8 teams. 

[David Dennison 18875]

1 hour ago, Napoleon said:

The trophies should be returned (Houston 2017 & Boston 2018) and the winners should be a blank entry, just like the 2005 Heisman (that the voters should have given to Vince in the first place).

A whole lot of teams from the steroid era would need to return trophies.

[Pato del Muerto 52507]

15 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

A whole lot of teams from the steroid era would need to return trophies.

Not the rangers!  Don’t have a single tainted trophy. Unless pennants count. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Pato del Muerto

[Pig Bellmont 8719]

Leaving this here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/mlb/sign-stealing-in-the-world-series-the-nationals-had-a-plan-just-in-case/2019/11/13/f8bdce7a-0640-11ea-8292-c46ee8cb3dce_story.html

There were some layers to the Nats’ plan for Houston. First, each pitcher had to have his own set of signs, and catchers Yan Gomes and Kurt Suzuki had to be familiar with each one. So the staff printed out cards with the codes and had them laminated. The catchers could have them in their wristbands, a la an NFL quarterback with play calls strapped to his forearm, and the pitchers would have them in their caps. Each pitcher had five sets of signs, and they could change them from game to game — or even batter to batter, if necessary. Using the set labeled No. 2, but worried the Astros were catching on? The pitcher could signal to the catcher to move to set No. 3.

 

The Nationals also decided that they would use multiple signs regardless of whether there was a runner on second base or not. No one on? Runner on first? Let’s make sure the catcher runs through a series of signs anyway, just in case.

[Dewey 3286]

Entertaining to watch local Houston news during the WS "usually player X is clutch in this situation, but not this time..." because player X didnt know what pitch was coming, his odds of being clutch went down drastically. 

[immortal13 4059]

1 hour ago, Dewey said:

Entertaining to watch local Houston news during the WS "usually player X is clutch in this situation, but not this time..." because player X didnt know what pitch was coming, his odds of being clutch went down drastically. 

No clutch city?

[Vic Mackey 47055]

4 hours ago, aggie08 said:

The Pats winning 3 Super Bowls post-Deflategate certainly helped the casual fan realize that its importance was way overblown.

We'll see how Houston does going forward.

It wasn't even just Deflategate, it was Spygate they did in their first stint of their dynasty early in the 2000s. the filming of walk throughs and other stuff. People will still bring that up and discredit all of those rings. Spygate was first. Deflategate was in their second stint of their dynasty. Add it all up and so many scoff at their titles. And it doesn't help that the Pats got caught filming again this season. So then some will say did it ever really go away in New England? I for one think its overblown to a certain extent but fans around the league will never let it go with the Pats. 

 

Although what does that mean in the long run? Nothing. Titles are still in the record books and they all have their rings and the games stand as is on the field. Just like here in Houston and Boston. Fans can bitch and moan and discredit them but they are there in the record books. Barry Bonds even after that scandal is still the HR king in terms of the MLB record books. Many fans don't acknowledge him but they aren't the ones who make the decision on the official records.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Vic Mackey

[Vic Mackey 47055]

30 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

No clutch city?

Astros blowing a 3-2 lead in the WS and a lead in game 7 plus the Texans blowing a 24pt lead in about 10min kind of took a dump on the Clutch City moniker for now.

[Guadaloopy 10973]

“Clutch City” was only a thing for the early 90’s Rockets.  It’s been dead since then.  The Astros revived it a bit with “Crush City” in 2015, but that never got legs.   

[wild_turkey 3159]

12 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Barry Bonds even after that scandal is still the HR king in terms of the MLB record books. Many fans don't acknowledge him but they aren't the ones who make the decision on the official records.

Sports success is an odd mixture of officially recognized titles/records and public perception. The record books can say whatever the leagues officially mandate, but if the fans hold an overwhelmingly different opinion, there will always be an unofficial asterisk next to it. Bonds is the perfect example of this.

The 2017 Astros WS title definitely has an asterisk to it right now. Whether or not that will still be the case in 10 years, time will tell.

[hayden_horn 11362]

13 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

Sports success is an odd mixture of officially recognized titles/records and public perception. The record books can say whatever the leagues officially mandate, but if the fans hold an overwhelmingly different opinion, there will always be an unofficial asterisk next to it. Bonds is the perfect example of this.

The 2017 Astros WS title definitely has an asterisk to it right now. Whether or not that will still be the case in 10 years, time will tell.

it always should. they cheated using technology on the road to a title. they should have vacated that title, imo. same with boston. baseball never learns.

[David Dennison 18875]

37 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it always should. they cheated using technology on the road to a title. they should have vacated that title, imo. same with boston. baseball never learns.

And a whole bunch of players and teams cheated using performance enhancing drugs on the road to titles. Should we vacate those, too?

[immortal13 4059]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And a whole bunch of players and teams cheated using performance enhancing drugs on the road to titles. Should we vacate those, too?

This is quite a bit different with the whole team participating, the manager knowing, and actual surveillance equipment installed and used for that express purpose. Houston should feel lucky the title was not stripped from them. A strong case can be made that it should be

[Beau Vine 54244]

Serious question -- what does "vacate the title" even mean?  Everyone saw them win it on the field.  Astros fans celebrated and they bought T-shirts and shit.  You can't take that stuff away.  So you take it out of the "official records."  So what?  No one looks at the "official records."  Can you make baseball-reference.com expunge it?  Doubtful.  You can't wipe the internet of all the columns written about the 2017 series.  You can't make everyone turn in their T-shirts, hats, and bobbleheads.  So what does "vacating the title" actually do?

[David Dennison 18875]

7 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

This is quite a bit different with the whole team participating, the manager knowing, and actual surveillance equipment installed and used for that express purpose. Houston should feel lucky the title was not stripped from them. A strong case can be made that it should be

It's no different. Everyone knew about it. Cheating is part of the game. That's why there's never going to be a penalty that will deter it. It's in the culture of the sport and always has been.

[immortal13 4059]

15 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's no different. Everyone knew about it. Cheating is part of the game. That's why there's never going to be a penalty that will deter it. It's in the culture of the sport and always has been.

Individual doping vs. an organized cheating scheme by the whole team/manager is not the same thing.

[huge 3793]

20 hours ago, dcar00 said:

I thought it was just post season.  wow.  I guess Altuve's MVP is in question also.

You leave him out of this

 

[immortal13 4059]

Lame

[dcar00 14210]

1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

Lame

extremely

[Hank Chinaski 6315]

42 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Individual doping vs. an organized cheating scheme by the whole team/manager is not the same thing.

What if team trainers were involved? What if managers and GMs and owners all knew what was happening? And sportswriters, and the commissioner, etc. Come on, everyone knew and everyone was complicit. Everyone acknowledges this at this point.

The Astros broke the rule and they got punished - that's fine. And the punishment was hardly light...it was pretty severe. Other teams broke the rule too, and we'll see what happens.

Many will dismiss the accomplishments of Astros players in 2017, despite evidence that suggests that their scheme didn't really seem to result in any noticeable improvement, because it is the narrative they crave. That's fine. 

 

[immortal13 4059]

You sound like an Astros fan