2020 General MLB off-season

[David Dennison 19030]

1 minute ago, Beau Vine said:

Was Beltran working for someone during the 2018 season?  The Yankees hired him after the season.

So that makes the 2019 Yankees a little suspect.

Hmmmmm.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

On 1/14/2020 at 2:17 PM, ss13 said:

I cannot wait for a big signing or trade so Dennison will end his one-man crusade on here. 

 

When this news first broke, I realized pretty quickly he had to go on ignore.  Debate is one thing...

[UpperWestside 6193]

58 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

When this news first broke, I realized pretty quickly he had to go on ignore.  Debate is one thing...

He doesn't even bother having a back and forth. It is just gotcha moments with him and that's it.

If more teams are found to have cheated then I am good with fines, loss of draft picks, lengthy suspensions, loss of international signing bonus money and the team having to vacate wins in the period they were found to have broken the rules. 

The Astros and Sox should have to vacate their titles and no one should be awarded the World Series. Manfred is a coward though who enjoys the paycheck he gets. That is really all this is about. He keeps sucking on the teet of MLB and just does some damn fine window dressing and keeps his job. What a shitshow of a sport.

[David Dennison 19030]

5 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

He doesn't even bother having a back and forth. It is just gotcha moments with him and that's it.

If more teams are found to have cheated then I am good with fines, loss of draft picks, lengthy suspensions, loss of international signing bonus money and the team having to vacate wins in the period they were found to have broken the rules. 

The Astros and Sox should have to vacate their titles and no one should be awarded the World Series. Manfred is a coward though who enjoys the paycheck he gets. That is really all this is about. He keeps sucking on the teet of MLB and just does some damn fine window dressing and keeps his job. What a shitshow of a sport.

If you believe that, then you should also believe that any team that won championships with players using PEDs should have to vacate their titles as well. If you don't believe that, then you are a hypocrite.

[Beau Vine 54504]

39 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

He doesn't even bother having a back and forth. It is just gotcha moments with him and that's it.

If more teams are found to have cheated then I am good with fines, loss of draft picks, lengthy suspensions, loss of international signing bonus money and the team having to vacate wins in the period they were found to have broken the rules. 

The Astros and Sox should have to vacate their titles and no one should be awarded the World Series. Manfred is a coward though who enjoys the paycheck he gets. That is really all this is about. He keeps sucking on the teet of MLB and just does some damn fine window dressing and keeps his job. What a shitshow of a sport.

Still waiting for an answer to this:
 

Quote

Serious question -- what does "vacate the title" even mean?  Everyone saw them win it on the field.  Astros fans celebrated and they bought T-shirts and shit.  You can't take that stuff away.  So you take it out of the "official records."  So what?  No one looks at the "official records."  Can you make baseball-reference.com expunge it?  Doubtful.  You can't wipe the internet of all the columns written about the 2017 series.  You can't make everyone turn in their T-shirts, hats, and bobbleheads.  So what does "vacating the title" actually do?

 

[UpperWestside 6193]

19 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Still waiting for an answer to this:
 

 

You vacate the title. That is it. I give no shits if the Yanks cheated. They should vacate their wins if they did the same thing.

[WBT 20723]

6 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

 

None of us will ever know that for sure because the Astros cheated all of us out of the opportunity to see a fair postseason. Both the ALCS and the WS went to game 7 so it’s hard to say the Astros still win both series without cheating unless you believe their cheating didn’t help their performance.

If you’re an Astros fan and you honestly believe they would’ve won without cheating, or that the cheating didn’t help them, then it must be infuriating to watch this unfold because your team’s one and only championship is tarnished by the players’ and coaches’ dumbfuckery.

 

There's no statistical evidence that it helped their performance.  I'm more bemused and annoyed that infuriated.  It's not tarnished to me and I don't really care what others think.

Edited January 16, 2020 by WBT

[Vic Mackey 47198]

If it is vacated, you make them take down every banner hanging in that ballpark. You make every single person return their rings. If they somehow sold or pawned it, then you make them fork over the money for it. I'd force them to hand over their rings in shame on national tv broadcast. Also that same game, show the banners being taken down and then thrown away.

Losing a few draft picks, a measly fine for the owner (who made well over $25million in total for the WS run) and having to replace the GM/owner means jack shit in the end. You can call it tainted and asterisk it and whatever else, fact of the matter is, they still have it and it's still real. They keep the rings and banners and recognized as champs. So the Astros won in the end. They also get to keep their international drafting ability. Also, not one single player got in trouble.

MLB just told everyone that cheating is a slap on the wrist. We aren't talking about paying players that has no consequence to on the field results. That's off the field stuff. They compromised with the integrity of the game by blatantly cheating with video equipment and technology. And not a damn thing happened to them. Nothing will happen to Boston, either. Just like nothing happened to the Patriots.

 

[wild_turkey 3187]

There's no statistical evidence that it helped their performance. 

 

Your options are basically this:

 

A) It helped them - Your roster is filled with players with a win at all cost mentality, resulting in a WS title that involved cheating via sign stealing that was effective and necessary for a competitive edge. They got caught afterwards and the title has an asterisk, but their cheating helped accomplish their mission.

 

B ) It didn’t help them - Your roster is filled with the biggest group of dumbasses to ever wear a baseball uniform. They were talented enough to win a fair matchup but they were insecure so they resorted to video cameras and trashcan banging for no benefit whatsoever. Even though this ridiculous scheme was completely ineffective, it resulted in their manager and GM being fired, a $5 million fine, a loss of 4 draft picks, and an asterisk next to the title. For no reason except to risk being labeled cheaters over ridiculous dugout antics.

 

I’m not sure which scenario Astros fans prefer to help save face in this mess.

[Huckleberry 33216]

Well there's the third option where Astros fans don't care what people think and so saving face with respect to your (and others') opinion is something that doesn't concern them.

[Beau Vine 54504]

 

[InkaUtexas 26282]

I like this one. 

[huge 3798]

13 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

You vacate the title. That is it. I give no shits if the Yanks cheated. They should vacate their wins if they did the same thing.

Did you read the Jayson Stark article that addressed this?

[Hank Chinaski 6324]

12 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

Your options are basically this:

A) It helped them - Your roster is filled with players with a win at all cost mentality, resulting in a WS title that involved cheating via sign stealing that was effective and necessary for a competitive edge. They got caught afterwards and the title has an asterisk, but their cheating helped accomplish their mission.

B ) It didn’t help them - Your roster is filled with the biggest group of dumbasses to ever wear a baseball uniform. They were talented enough to win a fair matchup but they were insecure so they resorted to video cameras and trashcan banging for no benefit whatsoever. Even though this ridiculous scheme was completely ineffective, it resulted in their manager and GM being fired, a $5 million fine, a loss of 4 draft picks, and an asterisk next to the title. For no reason except to risk being labeled cheaters over ridiculous dugout antics.

I’m not sure which scenario Astros fans prefer to help save face in this mess.

The flaw with this argument is that this assumes that they would immediately know that the scheme was largely ineffective overall at the exact point of implementation. Isn't it possible that they implemented the scheme because they assumed it would help, and after a while they found that it wasn't worth it? They did stop eventually. Players were quoted as saying it was a distraction. Non-Astros players have said that they thought something was up based on some of the swinging strikes by Astros players wherein they weren't anywhere close to making contact - suggesting that they "guessed" wildly wrong. The report indicates they stopped using the scheme. Etc.

So most likely it is a combination of your scenarios...win-at-all-costs, try to get an edge? Sure. Big group of dumbasses? They're ballplayers, man, yeah.

Of course they did it because they thought it would help, and it likely did in some ABs. It also may have hurt in other ABs. It is difficult to find data to quantify how much it really mattered. They hit better as a team in 2019 than they did in 2017. Even within 2017 they hit better on the road. That doesn't prove that it was entirely ineffective, but it also doesn't suggest that it really mattered much. But that doesn't mean it didn't, and that's why they'll always be questioned. 

Of course I'd prefer that none of this had happened at all. And it hardly matters what I prefer. I'm not saying they shouldn't get punished...whether (and to what degree) it helped isn't the issue there. And some fans will disregard that title or the accomplishments or whatever; that's part of the price too. That's all fine. My point is that the hyperbole about this being among the greatest scandals in the history of pro sports is laughably exaggerated when one considers how widespread sign-stealing in general has always been, and how little impact it actually seems to have made. That doesn't excuse the intent, I agree. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Hank Chinaski

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

 

[txhorns 2413]

Every MLB pitcher would prefer that the entire team the are facing is doing PEDs than that team know what type of pitch is coming every at bat.  Some of you are really downplaying the impact of knowing what pitch is coming can have.  What distracted the Astros players was the method used to obtain that information.  To act like it isn't a big deal is crazy, just look at the reaction of the rest of the league, all of which is pissed.

 

What magnifies this for the Astros is that they had already pissed off the rest of the league and media over other stuff.  So when they get caught cheating of course everyone will pile on.  The Astros players and fans can claim it isn't a tainted title all they want but their opinion really doesn't matter.  The rest of the league and fans consider it tainted with an asterisk.

[Constant 6759]

12 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

The flaw with this argument is that this assumes that they would immediately know that the scheme was largely ineffective overall at the exact point of implementation. Isn't it possible that they implemented the scheme because they assumed it would help, and after a while they found that it wasn't worth it? The timelines in the report support this idea. Players were quoted as saying it was a distraction. Non-Astros players have said that they thought something was up based on some of the swinging strikes by Astros players wherein they weren't anywhere close to making contact - suggesting that they "guessed" wildly wrong. The report indicates they stopped using the scheme. Etc.

So most likely it is a combination of your scenarios...win-at-all-costs, try to get an edge? Sure. Big group of dumbasses? They're ballplayers, man, yeah.

Of course they did it because they thought it would help, and it likely did in some ABs. It also may have hurt in other ABs. It is difficult to find data to quantify how much it really mattered. They hit better as a team in 2019 than they did in 2017. Even within 2017 they hit better on the road. That doesn't prove that it was entirely ineffective, but it also doesn't suggest that it really mattered much.

Of course I'd prefer that none of this had happened at all. And it hardly matters what I prefer. I'm not saying they shouldn't get punished...whether (and to what degree) it helped isn't the issue there. And some fans will disregard that title or the accomplishments or whatever; that's part of the price too. That's all fine. My point is that the hyperbole about this being among the greatest scandals in the history of pro sports is laughably exaggerated when one considers how widespread sign-stealing in general has always been, and how little impact it actually seems to have made. That doesn't excuse the intent, I agree. 

Well, considering this video comes from September ‘17 and there is video evidence of the banging in May of ‘17...I’d guess it wasn’t too distracting or ineffective considering they did it for an entire season. 

[Hank Chinaski 6324]

4 minutes ago, Constant said:

Well, considering this video comes from September ‘17 and there is video evidence of the banging in May of ‘17...I’d guess it wasn’t too distracting or ineffective considering they did it for an entire season. 

In fairness, Gattis needed all the help he could get. (And that AB resulted in a K.)

Edited January 16, 2020 by Hank Chinaski

[Captain Ron 12936]

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/sports/l-a-city-council-thinks-mlb-should-give-dodgers-2017-and-2018-world-series-trophies/2293087/

 

[Beau Vine 54504]

Whoops:

https://www.mlive.com/tigers/2017/06/dear_commissioner_manfred_just.html

Quote

SEATTLE -- Detroit Tigers ace Justin Verlander was seated at a card table in the middle of the visitors’ clubhouse at Safeco Field.

His eyes were riveted to his phone.

“Are people talking about this?” he asked no one in particular.

He turned to a group of reporters in the clubhouse: “Are people writing about this?”

Verlander was meticulously reading a long piece published last week in The Ringer that seems to lend some credence to what had once been only a conspiracy theory: The composition of the baseball is at least partially responsible for the dramatic uptick in home runs that began in 2015 and has grown even more pronounced this year.

Verlander had an audience on Monday, and he wasn’t done.

If the commissioner really wants to speed up the game, he'll look into the epidemic of sign-stealing, Verlander said.

This isn’t the innocent sign-stealing of yore. This is high-tech stuff, involving team video departments and even code-crackers.

“We don't have somebody, but I'm sure teams have a person that can break down signals and codes and they'll have the signs before you even get out there on the mound,” Verlander said.

“It's not about gamesmanship anymore. It used to be, 'Hey, if you can get my signs, good for you.' In the past, if a guy on second (base) was able to decipher it on a few pitches, I guess that was kind of part of the game. I think it's a different level now. It's not good.”

 

A screeching halt

So how does sign-stealing affect the pace of play?

“The game comes to a screeching halt when guys get on base, and specifically when guys get in scoring position on second base,” Verlander said. “The signs have to be more advanced than they ever were before.”

“Those 1-2-3 innings go pretty quick. It's when guys get on base: Pitchers picking off and stepping off, managers giving signs to the catcher, catcher giving the signs to the pitcher. All these things take place and that's where the lull is. I think there's a lot of extra space in that area we could tighten up.

“I have much more advanced signs now. I have fallback signs for my fallback signs. There's a lot of stuff happening that makes it pretty easy to get off rhythm with the catcher or maybe throw the wrong pitch or have to say, 'Hold on, let's talk about this, because we're not on the same page.'”

 

What's the solution?

Verlander has two action items, one easier than the other:

• MLB should come clean about any changes to the baseball (for what it's worth, MLB has long denied making alterations to the baseball to impact offense) so there can be a debate about whether those changes are healthy or whether home runs have reached a tipping point.
• MLB could shave significant time off ever-lengthening games by cracking down on sign-stealing.

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Beau Vine

[Guadaloopy 11039]

15 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Whoops:

https://www.mlive.com/tigers/2017/06/dear_commissioner_manfred_just.html

 

That’s quite a gotcha... except that he made those statements before joining the Astros.  And evidence seems to show that the trash can banging stopped shortly after his arrival on the team.  

I submit to the theory that JV was a big part of the Astros changing and eventually giving up the live sign stealing methods they used earlier in 2017.  

[InkaUtexas 26282]

Beltran out as manager. 

 

 

[Constant 6759]

8 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

That’s quite a gotcha... except that he made those statements before joining the Astros.  And evidence seems to show that the trash can banging stopped shortly after his arrival on the team.  

I submit to the theory that JV was a big part of the Astros changing and eventually giving up the live sign stealing methods they used earlier in 2017.  

Jesus. You Astro fans have your head so far in the sand it’s unreal. The video I posted above is after Verlander was traded to the Astros. As are tons of other videos of the banging. I’m glad you think they all of the sudden just grew a conscience and stopped cheating after he arrived, but everyone else knows they continued it into 2018 and 2019. 
 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Constant

[Beau Vine 54504]

8 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

That’s quite a gotcha... except that he made those statements before joining the Astros.  And evidence seems to show that the trash can banging stopped shortly after his arrival on the team.  

I submit to the theory that JV was a big part of the Astros changing and eventually giving up the live sign stealing methods they used earlier in 2017.  

Verlander was traded on 8/31/2017.  The Farquar game was over three weeks later.  That game is what caused the trash can banging to stop.

Quote

Several players told my investigators that there was a sense of “panic” in the Astros’ dugout after White Sox pitcher Danny Farquhar appeared to notice the trash can bangs.

They kept using the video room to decode signs in 2018, which is what Verlander was complaining about in that article:

Quote

The investigation uncovered no evidence that Astros players utilized the banging scheme in 2018. However, the Astros’ replay review room staff continued, at least for part of the 2018 season, to decode signs using the live center field camera feed, and to transmit the signs to the dugout through in-person communication.

 

[ss13 1832]

2 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 

20 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Beltran out as manager. 

 

Awesome. 

[Constant 6759]

Surely it all came to a screeching halt the day Verlander arrived on his high horse. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Constant

[Beau Vine 54504]

 

[Chuckie Finster 22759]

Do you think Jomboy or Bauer has jerked it more to this scandal?

[Iceman 2756]

19 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

 

If more teams are found to have cheated then I am good with fines, loss of draft picks, lengthy suspensions, loss of international signing bonus money and the team having to vacate wins in the period they were found to have broken the rules. 

The Astros and Sox should have to vacate their titles and no one should be awarded the World Series. Manfred is a coward though who enjoys the paycheck he gets. That is really all this is about. He keeps sucking on the teet of MLB and just does some damn fine window dressing and keeps his job. What a shitshow of a sport.

And the Yankees can lead the way by vacating anything Aroid and Roger Clemens were part of.

Rules were knowingly broken, right?

your position is one of convenience.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Iceman

[Chuckie Finster 22759]

15 minutes ago, Constant said:

Surely it all came to a screeching halt the day Verlander arrived on his high horse. 

Can someone explain to me the logic behind this?  So for Beltran's niece to have pictures of Altuve and Bregman, you'd think it would have to happen in 2017, the only season all three played together.  So, we're to believe that in 2017 the Astros devised an elaborate scheme involving hidden buzzers, yet were choosing to bang on trash cans instead?

Just saw fucking Stark retweed jomboy.  A whole hell of a lot of faith is being put into a private twitter account by someone who claims to be Beltran's niece.  And for someone looking to blow it all open, the believable move is to post the pictures.  Not insinuate that you have them.  That's what a troll does.

[Chuckie Finster 22759]

Fucking jomboy.

[Beau Vine 54504]

I notice that she doesn't say that the Beltrans don't know this girl, just that she is "not related to the family."

My best friend is Puerto Rican, and both of his kids call me "Tio Beau," so excuse me for thinking that's not a great denial.

Still, this doesn't match any time line.  Altuve had a buzzer in the 2019 playoffs, and where exactly was Beltran in 2019?

[woohorn 1131]

Josh Reddick looks wired

[ss13 1832]

Morris is the Rangers’ SB Nation writer. 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by ss13

[Constant 6759]

3 minutes ago, woohorn said:

Josh Reddick looks wired
 

It’s only a matter of time before more and more of this comes out. 

[Chuckie Finster 22759]

7 minutes ago, woohorn said:

Josh Reddick looks wired
 

It's confetti that got stuck to his sweaty ass redneck chest.

 

 

[Beau Vine 54504]

Lulz...

 

[Storm the Field 5304]

10 minutes ago, Constant said:

It’s only a matter of time before more and more of this comes out. 

Before more videos of a necklace, a piece of confetti and some prison-quality tattoos come out?

[woohorn 1131]

It's confetti that got stuck to his sweaty ass redneck chest.

Furk. Plus, it's his LEFT shoulder anyway. Sure looked like a wire under it doh.

[Constant 6759]

5 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

Before more videos of a necklace, a piece of confetti and some prison-quality tattoos come out?

Ha lets not stick our noses in the air acting like it’s some wild accusation. I’m not an expert in what a buzzing bandage looks like. We should ask someone from the Astros organization. 

[ss13 1832]

Altuve & Reddick hit from opposite sides, so which shoulder isn’t relevant. Confetti argument is separate. 

[David Dennison 19030]

3 minutes ago, Constant said:

Ha lets not stick our noses in the air acting like it’s some wild accusation. I’m not an expert in what a buzzing bandage looks like. We should ask someone from the Astros organization. 

I'm pretty sure they already did.

[Storm the Field 5304]

Here's the video from when Altuve got his jersey ripped off early last season. I'm not seeing any secret buzzers. I guess he's lucky that he wasn't wearing it this time. Or it's invisible. Maybe it's a suppository?

https://www.mlb.com/astros/video/altuve-s-walk-off-walk?t=t117-default-vtp

Must have been saving it for the 2019 playoffs, when MLB had personnel sitting in the video replay room and long after the investigation found that any use of video to decode signs had ceased.

Prior to the 2019 season, the Commissioner’s Office issued a revised policy governing sign stealing, which, among other things, included the placement of individuals retained by the Commissioner’s Office in the Club’s replay review rooms to ensure that no rules violations occurred (a practice that began in the 2018 Postseason). The investigation revealed no violations of the policy by the Astros in the 2019 season or 2019 Postseason.

[Js1 85662]

People have lost their god damn minds. 

[Chuckie Finster 22759]

Just now, Js1 said:

People have lost their god damn minds. 

Logan Morrison: Yeah, like all teams are doing shit like this

Baseball twitter: ........

Some hot chick on twitter: Altuve and Bregman wore buzzers

Baseball twitter: OH THIS SOUNDS SERIOUS

[David Dennison 19030]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

People have lost their god damn minds. 

It's oddly satisfying to witness Yankee fans lose their minds about a team whose players cheated on the way to winning a championship when their team won multiple championships with players who cheated.

[Beau Vine 54504]

 

[Storm the Field 5304]

OMG, irrefutable proof that hidden buzzers are everywhere!!!!!!!!

[DaysOff 7990]

It's confetti that got stuck to his sweaty ass redneck chest.
[/url]  
 

Oh man. Those Rangers almost got ya.

[Smax 3800]

thats  hilarious