2020 General MLB off-season

[Hank Chinaski 6321]

18 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Nothing like maximizing the number of disinterested fanbases towards the end of every year to grow the game & boost revenue.

Meh. I get it from an economic/marketing perspective (which obviously guides these decisions), and if anything there will only be more playoff teams (not fewer).

But it doesn't make the sport itself better, just more profitable. 

It is sort of stupid that we have a sample size of 162 games to determine the best teams, and then the "champion" is decided by a few games. The more playoff teams they add, the less interesting it gets IMO. 

[n64ra 1089]

On 5/2/2020 at 12:02 PM, Hank Chinaski said:

Meh. I get it from an economic/marketing perspective (which obviously guides these decisions), and if anything there will only be more playoff teams (not fewer).

But it doesn't make the sport itself better, just more profitable. 

It is sort of stupid that we have a sample size of 162 games to determine the best teams, and then the "champion" is decided by a few games. The more playoff teams they add, the less interesting it gets IMO. 

Yes, we all know. Nobody cares about the NBA regular season because 53% of teams make the playoffs. In fact, nobody really cares about the first round either. It shows that people only want about 8 playoff teams in a 30 team league.

[ss13 1832]

Who’s watching the NC Dinos @ Samsung tonight at midnight on ESPN? 

[Dr Fear 1268]

Who’s watching the NC Dinos @ Samsung tonight at midnight on ESPN? 

Got the Lions +130.

[Dr Fear 1268]

Times could not possibly be more inconvenient. Lulz

[ss13 1832]

Good luck, Samsung was 60-83-1 last season. 

[Beau Vine 54432]

3 hours ago, ss13 said:

Who’s watching the NC Dinos @ Samsung tonight at midnight on ESPN? 

Fuck yes.

[gsoda3 3283]

Times could not possibly be more inconvenient. Lulz

It's ss's prime time.

I'm gonna see how long I can last.

[Dr Fear 1268]

It's ss's prime time.

I'm gonna see how long I can last.

Rain delay, what are the odds.

[gsoda3 3283]

Lolol rain delay aigoo

[Dr Fear 1268]

[Dr Fear 1268]

Tarp is coming off!

[WBT 20670]

This is a fun read from Brisbee.

https://theathletic.com/1516315/2020/05/06/the-all-wait-they-were-on-that-team-players-for-every-mlb-franchise/

The All-‘Wait-they-were-on-that-team?’ players for every MLB franchise

By Grant Brisbee 3h ago 35 

Thirty-five years ago, in the year 2019, someone started a Twitter conversation. The idea was to take an athlete who was more commonly associated with one team and reference his time with another, more random team.

It was phrased like this: (Team name) legend (player name). As in, “Astros legend Randy Johnson.” Then someone else would quote-tweet that legend and add their own. Some people with nothing better to do did it multiple times. It was a fun day on Twitter.

But it left me unsatisfied. There was still an itch I couldn’t reach. Was there a way to take this fun Twitter game and turn it into months and months of staring at Baseball-Reference?

There was. And it needed to happen because it wasn’t enough to list random players. We needed to figure out which franchise had the best collection of legends that didn’t belong to them.

If you’re done with the introduction, you can skip straight to the teams.

If you want some of the more granular details, though, here’s how the teams were made.

These teams will not include the young players who got away. Lou Brock is not a representative of the Cubs. Roberto Clemente is not on the Dodgers. This is mostly about the players who shuffled through an unexpected and/or forgotten team toward the end of their careers.

These teams will not include the players who had a major, lasting and memorable impact on their team, however brief it might have been. Carlos Beltrán was with the Astros for 90 regular-season games, but he became an October deity and helped them win their first pennant. CC Sabathia started just 17 regular-season games for the Brewers, but it was some of the best pitching the franchise had ever seen, which is also the reason why Johnson won’t make the Astros’ rotation. He was too good, too memorable. Joe Morgan was with the Giants for just a season, but he hit a home run their fans of a certain vintage still refer to by name. None of these players will qualify for those respective teams. Their connection to those franchises would not surprise you.

These teams will generally not include the players who had All-Star seasons with them. You might not think about the Padres when you hear Rollie Fingers’ name, but he pitched for them in four seasons. Three of them were excellent. Disqualified.

I reserve the right to ignore this rule when it suits me. Frank Robinson made an All-Star team for the Angels and finished 15th in the MVP voting one year. He still represents them because it’s funny. Frank Robinson on the Angels! That seems like something that copyediting will need to fix.

There’s recency bias to fight against, too. Just because you remember Greg Maddux was on the Dodgers doesn’t mean that a baseball nerd in 2050 will. It might blow his or her mind. So he’s in.

Lastly, please note that I have almost certainly omitted some worthy candidates for these teams. I used Baseball-Reference’s Play Index, and I ran all sorts of different searches, toggling by All-Star appearances and career WAR. But looking for All-Stars means ignoring players at the turn of the 20th century, when there weren’t All-Star Games, so I searched for those years, and … look, there’s almost certainly someone missing. So consider this a living document, with suggestions and nominations in the comments below acting as updates and edits.

Fine print over. Here are the All-wait-they-were-on-that-team? players for every franchise. It’s in alphabetical order by team, but I’ve also tallied up the career WAR of all these players and subtracted their meager contributions for their random late-career teams, so we can figure out which team got the least out of the greatest players in baseball history. There are rankings at the end!

---

Angels

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH ANGELS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Luis Tiant	65.6	-0.3	65.9
SP	Kevin Appier	54.9	1.6	53.3
SP	Fernando Valenzuela	37.4	-0.4	37.8
SP	Mike Cuellar	29.2	-0.4	29.6
SP	Tim Lincecum	19.9	-1.6	21.5
RP	Hoyt Wilhelm	49.7	1.3	48.4
RP	Lee Smith	29.3	1.5	27.8
RP	Jason Isringhausen	12.3	0.1	12.2
RP	Mitch Williams	7.2	-0.3	7.5
C	Butch Wynegar	26.5	0.1	26.4
1B	Eddie Murray	68.7	-1	69.7
2B	Ian Kinsler	55.2	2.7	52.5
SS	Bert Campaneris	53.1	0.2	52.9
3B	Tim Wallach	38.5	0.1	38.4
OF	Frank Robinson	107.2	8.2	99
OF	Bo Jackson	8.3	0.6	7.7
OF	Rickey Henderson	111.2	-0.1	111.3
DH	Andrés Galarraga	31.7	0.1	31.6
			Total	793.5

 

Again, Robinson is the biggest stretch here. He was a literal All-Star and MVP candidate with the Angels. Still, I'm trying to imagine him in the same uniform that Reggie Jackson wore when he tried to kill the Queen in "The Naked Gun," and I just can't see it.

This decision kind of rigs the WAR rankings in the Angels favor, so I'll make up for it by including Jackson, who definitely didn't have the highest WAR among other wait-they-were-Angels outfielders. He just had the most fame. Definite first-ballot Hall of Hell-Yeah-This-Guy-Was-So-Awesome, and for some reason he was on the Angels for 75 games. Hit pretty well, too!

It's a strong roster for a franchise that didn't exist before 1961. Five Hall of Famers shuffled through toward the end of their careers, along with a few guys with a better argument than you think (Tiant, Campaneris, Kinsler).

Athletics

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH A'S	DIFFERENCE
SP	Don Sutton	68.3	2.6	65.7
SP	Kevin Appier	54.9	2.7	52.2
SP	Johnny Sain	24.8	0	24.8
SP	Denny McLain	20.5	-0.8	21.3
SP	Satchel Paige	9	0.3	8.7
RP	Dave Righetti	21.3	-0.5	21.8
RP	Goose Gossage	41.6	1	40.6
RP	Gary Lavelle	19.7	-0.2	19.9
RP	Don Mossi	22.6	-0.3	22.9
C	Mike Piazza	59.6	0.1	59.5
1B	Willie McCovey	64.5	-0.2	64.7
2B	Joe Morgan	100.5	1.6	98.9
SS	Nomar Garciaparra	44.3	-0.2	44.5
3B	Jimmy Collins	53.4	2.2	51.2
OF	Billy Williams	63.7	1.9	61.8
OF	Ty Cobb	151	6.3	144.7
OF	Tim Raines	69.4	0.3	69.1
DH	Don Baylor	28.5	2.7	25.8
			Total	898.1

 

Paige gets in under the Bo Jackson clause, except if you want to include the WAR from everywhere he played before he was allowed to join an MLB team, the A's might have the best team.

I'm OK with you doing that. Because, from here, this looks like a wait-they-were-on-that-team team that would be nearly impossible to beat. If there's a weak link, it's the rotation, with just (sniff) two Hall of Famers. The lineup, though, has seven Hall of Famers. And it's not like they're the kind of HOF players who just squeaked in. There are some inner-circle guys there. The lineup could have been even better, but I didn't include Dave Parker because he was on two pennant-winning teams, so he didn't fit my arbitrary, ever-changing rules.

If there's one thing I encourage, it's to look up the players you've never heard of on Baseball-Reference. Surprised that Mossi was like the Righetti of his time? Look him up! He's more than just a legendary baseball card.

(For more on the A's roster, read Melissa Lockard, who wrote an entire feature on them!)

Astros

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH ASTROS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Robin Roberts	83	2.7	80.3
SP	Don Sutton	68.3	5.2	63.1
SP	Dwight Gooden	48.2	-0.1	48.3
SP	Rick Rhoden	30.1	-0.3	30.4
SP	Woody Williams	27.6	1.3	26.3
RP	John Franco	23.6	-0.5	24.1
RP	Francisco Cordero	16.9	-0.9	17.8
RP	Bill Henry	14.7	0.2	14.5
RP	Bobby Shantz	32.1	0.9	31.2
C	Iván Rodríguez	68.7	0.5	68.2
1B	Eddie Mathews	96.2	1	95.2
2B	Nellie Fox	49.5	1.4	48.1
SS	José Uribe	8.7	-0.2	8.9
3B	Buddy Bell	66.3	0.4	65.9
OF	Frank Thomas (not that one)	18.6	-0.2	18.8
OF	Davey Lopes	42.4	0.8	41.6
OF	Darin Erstad	32.3	-0.9	33.2
DH	Carlos Peña	25.5	-0.3	25.8
			Total	741.7

 

Let this be an example of the limits of the bullpens in this exercise, as most of them aren't going to knock your socks off. With the exception of a few pitchers, like Hoyt Wilhelm, there wasn't a lot of glamour in the bullpen before the 1970s and the '80s. That's where the failed starters went. So it's a much smaller pool to cull from. Which is how you get Henry on an all-time roster. (Dude was pretty good for four seasons, though.)

For an expansion team, this is a solid roster. With one notable exception. Friends, I tried for shortstop. I really, really tried. Here, you have a go. But it was either Uribe or Clint Barmes, and the latter was just a little too recent. Would have shattered the whole façade.

Blue Jays

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH BLUE JAYS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Phil Niekro	97	-0.3	97.3
SP	Frank Viola	47.1	-0.7	47.8
SP	John Candelaria	39.9	-0.2	40.1
SP	Bill Singer	19.4	-1.2	20.6
SP	Clay Buchholz	16.9	-0.4	17.3
RP	Armando Benítez	17.4	-0.2	17.6
RP	Dave Righetti	21.3	-0.1	21.4
RP	Randy Myers	15.1	0.4	14.7
RP	Joe Coleman	24.7	0	24.7
C	Lance Parrish	39.5	0	39.5
1B	Al Oliver	43.7	-0.6	44.3
2B	Edgardo Alfonzo	28.8	-0.1	28.9
SS	Omar Vizquel	45.6	-0.3	45.9
3B	Corey Koskie	24.6	1.4	23.2
OF	Curtis Granderson	47	0.6	46.4
OF	Ron Fairly	35.2	2.4	32.8
OF	Willie Horton	26.4	-0.7	27.1
DH	Ruben Sierra	16.8	-0.1	16.9
			Total	606.5

The pitching quality isn't there, at least compared to other teams. Candelaria was outstanding, but other teams are running three or four Hall of Famers deep. Niekro is the only Hall of Famer on the entire roster, at least until Vizquel is inducted and we all drown in a sea of nerd-tears.

I respect the commitment to the bit, though, because it gives us a perfect lineup of players who were very good but not that close to the Hall of Fame. It fits well with the Blue Jays, who are baseball's eternal 83-79 team. Even when they lose 95 games or win the World Series, they'll eventually be 83-79. It's right there in the Annus Mirabilis papers, people.

(Rickey Henderson doesn't count because I'm trying to ignore high-profile trades of players in the middle of their prime. Your mileage may vary.)

Braves

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH BRAVES	DIFFERENCE
SP	Cy Young	165.7	0.6	165.1
SP	Gaylord Perry	93	1.4	91.6
SP	Bartolo Colon	47.8	-2.1	49.9
SP	Wes Ferrell	48.9	-0.2	49.1
SP	Ben Sheets	26.1	0.3	25.8
RP	Mike Marshall	17.2	0.5	16.7
RP	Roberto Hernández	18.5	-0.5	19
RP	Bruce Sutter	24.5	-0.4	24.9
RP	Stu Miller	27.3	-0.5	27.8
C	Ted Simmons	50.3	-0.7	51
1B	George Sisler	54	2.4	51.6
2B	Brandon Phillips	28.4	1	27.4
SS	Ozzie Guillén	20.9	0.7	20.2
3B	Graig Nettles	68	-0.1	68.1
OF	Lloyd Waner	27.9	0.6	27.3
OF	Ducky Joe Medwick	54.3	0.1	54.2
OF	Babe Ruth	162.1	0.1	162
DH	Enos Slaughter	57	-0.3	57.3
			Total	989

And we have reached the eyes-popping-out-like-a-cartoon-wolf section of the program. This team has Babe Ruth and Cy Young. There is another team (spoilers!) that ranks higher when it comes to the difference between career WAR and team-specific WAR, but that team doesn't have Babe Ruth and Cy Young.

The additions of Slaughter, Medwick, Sisler and Perry are a nice touch, and there are nine Hall of Famers in all.

But the Braves can claim Babe Ruth and Cy Young. Hard to compete with that.

Brewers

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH BREWERS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Jerry Reuss	32.9	-0.3	33.2
SP	Al Downing	22.5	0.8	21.7
SP	Hideo Nomo	21.8	2.3	19.5
SP	Ray Sadecki	16.5	-0.2	16.7
SP	Gary Bell	14.4	-0.2	14.6
RP	Ricky Bottalico	6.2	-0.2	6.4
RP	Rob Dibble	9.5	-0.5	10
RP	Eric Gagne	11.7	-0.5	12.2
RP	Takashi Saito	10.5	0.8	9.7
C	Ray Fosse	12.9	0	12.9
1B	Dave Parker	40.1	1.1	39
2B	Willie Randolph	65.9	4.3	61.6
SS	Dickie Thon	23.9	0.2	23.7
3B	Tony Fernández	45.3	-0.2	45.5
OF	Hank Aaron	143.1	0.5	142.6
OF	Jim Edmonds	60.4	2	58.4
OF	Jim Wynn	55.8	-0.6	56.4
DH	Felipe Alou	42.3	-0.1	42.4
			Total	626.5

It's a solid lineup, and the addition of Aaron helps a lot. He's sharing the outfield with two players who were treated horrifically by Hall of Fame voters. Wynn might be the best player to ever be completely shut out of the voting, unless that's Devon White, who also qualifies for this Brewers roster but just missed. That type of player doesn't help the overall cachet and name-brand marketability of the team, but it sure helps with the WAR ranking.

The Brewers lack the pitching to seriously compete in the wait-they-were-on-that-team power rankings, but that infield sure would have been a lot of fun in the early '80s.

Cardinals

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH CARDINALS	DIFFERENCE
SP	John Smoltz	66.9	0.3	66.6
SP	Chuck Finley	58.3	0.5	57.8
SP	Fernando Valenzuela	37.4	-0.6	38
SP	Sal Maglie	34.2	-0.4	34.6
SP	Rick Sutcliffe	31.2	-1.4	32.6
RP	Dan Quisenberry	24.6	0.3	24.3
RP	Dennis Eckersley	62.2	0.6	61.6
RP	Tom Henke	23	2.3	20.7
RP	Troy Percival	17.1	1.2	15.9
C	Gene Tenace	47.6	3.6	44
1B	Will Clark	56.5	2.1	54.4
2B	Eddie Stanky	41.1	0.9	40.2
SS	Chris Speier	30.6	0.3	30.3
3B	Doug DeCinces	41.7	-0.1	41.8
OF	Bobby Bonds	57.9	-0.4	58.3
OF	Minnie Miñoso	50.2	-0.3	50.5
OF	César Cedeño	52.8	1.2	51.6
DH	Eric Davis	36.1	1.5	34.6
			Total	757.8

This is one of the more disappointing rosters among the original 16 MLB teams. What, is there a chapter in that hefty, leather-bound "The Cardinal Way" book that specifically advises against giving future Hall of Famers one more chance? Just two end-of-career HOF players in 139 years? Though I'm probably missing Scud Filimin from the 1882 St. Louis Brown Stockings, who put up 40 WAR in a single season because he threw 1,000 innings.

If you're going to build a roster out of non-HOF legends, though, this a great way to do it. The elder Bonds, Miñoso, Cedeño, Davis, Clark, Valenzuela ... those are some of the most electric talents baseball has ever seen, even if they couldn't sustain it long enough to accumulate a bunch of stats. You can make the argument that a few of them should be in.

You know what? While the social order is crumbling, let me just take this opportunity to declare my complete and total authority over the Hall of Fame selection process. I'm in charge now. Me. And Minnie Miñoso is in now. His plaque is next to Lou Whitaker's. Thanks for your patience and understanding on this.

(Will Clark's plaque is just around the corner.)

Cubs

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH CUBS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Robin Roberts	83	-0.7	83.7
SP	Dizzy Dean	43.9	3.8	40.1
SP	Curt Simmons	42.6	-1.1	43.7
SP	Paul Derringer	39	1.2	37.8
SP	Dan Haren	32.9	0.2	32.7
RP	Joe Nathan	26.4	0.1	26.3
RP	Hoyt Wilhelm	49.7	-0.2	49.9
RP	Goose Gossage	41.6	-0.2	41.8
RP	Rick Aguilera	20.6	0.4	20.2
C	Walker Cooper	27.3	2.5	24.8
1B	Jimmie Foxx	93.1	-1.4	94.5
2B	Tony Lazzeri	47.3	0.8	46.5
SS	Dick Bartell	40.5	0.3	40.2
3B	Davey Johnson	27.5	0.5	27
OF	Bobby Bonds	57.9	0.1	57.8
OF	Willie Wilson	46.1	0.4	45.7
OF	Monte Irvin	21.3	2.4	18.9
DH	Kenny Lofton	68.4	1.8	66.6
			Total	798.2

 

Again, just like with Paige, this is a roster that gets an extra boost if you add in the years that Irvin wasn't allowed to play in MLB. And Bartell is an excellent player you might not have heard of, just a super solid, reliable contributor from the Great Depression through World War II.

Allow me a few seconds to daydream about a team with Wilson, Lofton and Bonds in their respective primes ... ahhhhhhhhhh, oh, man, that's the good stuff. Pitchers and catchers would just call in sick before those games, like early-20s employees the day after the Super Bowl.

If you're going to be impressed by one part of this roster, let it be the bullpen, which is among the best out of any team in this exercise. It's hard to get one HOF reliever, and the Cubs have two. And Nathan's peak is among the best from any reliever, too.

Fun fact*: Walker Cooper's brother Mort was almost the fifth starter on this team.

* Fun facts might not contain fun. The Athletic makes no claims about the amount or quality of fun contained. This statement has not been evaluated by the FDA. Fun facts are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

Diamondbacks

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH D'BACKS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Bronson Arroyo	24.7	-0.1	24.8
SP	Orlando Hernández	23.1	-0.1	23.2
SP	Mike Hampton	20.7	0.3	20.4
SP	Shane Reynolds	18.1	-0.3	18.4
SP	Dontrelle Willis	15.4	-0.3	15.7
RP	Tom Gordon	35	-0.3	35.3
RP	Heath Bell	7.2	-0.2	7.4
RP	Bob Wickman	16.9	0.1	16.8
RP	Takashi Saito	10.5	-0.7	11.2
C	Alex Avila	15.7	1.4	14.3
1B	Adam Dunn	18	-0.4	18.4
2B	Roberto Alomar	67	0.1	66.9
SS	Royce Clayton	19.5	0.1	19.4
3B	Melvin Mora	28.3	-1.1	29.4
OF	Shawn Green	34.7	0.2	34.5
OF	Adam Jones	32.5	-0.6	33.1
OF	Raúl Mondesi	29.5	0.5	29
DH	Carlos Baerga	19.6	0.6	19
			Total	437.2

 

It's rough on these newer expansion teams, especially the two that have been in the majors for fewer seasons than Bartolo Colon. They can't compete with the teams that have been around for more than a century, and the Diamondbacks fare the worst out of all 30 teams in my crude WAR calculations. So the question to ask is this: Do they have at least one Hall of Famer?

Yes, the Diamondbacks do. On Aug. 4, 2004, Roberto Alomar hit a home run to raise his OPS to .855. He was traded to the White Sox the next day. It was his finest day in a Diamondbacks uniform.

At least, that's what the government wants you to believe. Because there's actually no way that Alomar was on the Diamondbacks. You can't prove it. All photos are doctored. Anecdotal evidence is unreliable. It's all a conspiracy to distract you from what's really going on, man.

Apart from that, the rotation is better than it should be. This team wouldn't lose 100 games in the Out of the Park simulation between all of these teams. (I hope one of you is setting that up as we speak.)

Dodgers

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH DODGERS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Greg Maddux	104.8	1.7	103.1
SP	Juan Marichal	61.8	-0.5	62.3
SP	Jim Bunning	60.4	0.3	60.1
SP	David Wells	53.6	0.1	53.5
SP	Wes Ferrell	48.9	-0.1	49
RP	Brian Wilson	5.7	0.1	5.6
RP	Roberto Hernández	18.5	-0.3	18.8
RP	Gregg Olson	12.7	-1	13.7
RP	Hoyt Wilhelm	49.7	0.4	49.3
C	Gary Carter	70.1	1.2	68.9
1B	Fred McGriff	52.6	0.4	52.2
2B	Tony Lazzeri	47.3	0.5	46.8
SS	Jimmy Rollins	47.6	0.4	47.2
3B	Ken Boyer	62.9	1.1	61.8
OF	Rickey Henderson	111.2	0.2	111
OF	Frank Robinson	107.2	2	105.2
OF	Paul Waner	73.9	2.1	71.8
DH	Kenny Lofton	68.4	0.8	67.6
			Total	1047.9

And here you go. The best wait-they-were-on-that-team team in baseball. They start off with three Hall of Famers in the rotation, and they crush you with a lineup filled with players who either have a Hall of Fame plaque or a reasonable Hall of Fame argument. They even have the right Waner brother.

That's not the most impressive part of the Dodgers in this exercise, though. The most impressive part is the depth. Let's just say that after the starting three outfielders and the DH, which you can consider a super-utility player for the NL teams, the next best outfielders would be in the minor leagues, just so they could get at-bats. Who are the Dodgers starting?

Triple A
Kiki Cuyler - LF
Andruw Jones - CF
Bobby Abreu - RF

Double A
Boog Powell - LF
César Cedeño - CF
Heinie Manush - RF

Lloyd Waner is banished to A-ball. Robin Ventura is fighting for at-bats off the bench. This team is absolutely loaded, which is to be expected for a franchise that existed before homes had electricity. But the Dodgers are the best of the bunch, even after accounting for that longevity.

Giants

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH GIANTS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Steve Carlton	84.1	-0.6	84.7
SP	Randy Johnson	103.5	0.3	103.2
SP	Warren Spahn	92.5	0.6	91.9
SP	Orel Hershiser	51.4	1.2	50.2
SP	Tim Hudson	56.5	1.5	55
RP	Dave Righetti	21.3	-1.8	23.1
RP	Dan Quisenberry	24.6	-0.9	25.5
RP	Goose Gossage	41.6	0.3	41.3
RP	Steve Bedrosian	15.4	0	15.4
C	Gary Carter	70.1	1.8	68.3
1B	Al Oliver	43.7	-1.1	44.8
2B	Tony Lazzeri	47.3	0.1	47.2
SS	Miguel Tejada	47.1	0.2	46.9
3B	Bob Elliot	50.5	0.2	50.3
OF	Ducky Joe Medwick	54.3	4.7	49.6
OF	Duke Snider	66	-0.6	66.6
OF	Darryl Strawberry	42.2	-0.2	42.4
DH	Gabby Hartnett	56.9	0	56.9
			Total	963.3

The Giants aren't that far behind, though. They also start with three inner-circle Hall of Famers in the rotation, and if we're building a real team, there's a whole lot of advantage that comes with two Hall of Fame catchers. All these other teams are grinding their one catcher into dust, but the Giants have Carter and Hartnett perfectly rested.

And that bullpen, goodness. If the Giants had those exact same four pitchers in 1983 or '84, why, they could have won 75 games or so! I was always obsessed with the Giants' ability to collect closers from the early '80s, and I've always wondered if Jeff Reardon and Bruce Sutter were a little offended that they never got a call.

I would like to announce a trade, however. Orel Hershiser has been traded back to the Dodgers in exchange for Juan Marichal. The whole Hershiser thing never happened for the Giants. The whole Marichal thing never happened for the Dodgers. Everyone agrees that this for the best.

Note that I could have put my thumb on the scale by including Jackie Robinson here (acquired in a trade, but retired instead) or Jimmy Rollins (suited up in a Giants uniform as a non-roster invitee in spring training), but that wouldn't have been fair. This is important stuff we're doing here.

Indians

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH INDIANS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Steve Carlton	84.1	-0.1	84.2
SP	Hal Newhouser	60	1.3	58.7
SP	Mark Langston	50	0	50
SP	Camilo Pascual	37.5	0.6	36.9
SP	Don Newcombe	29.1	-0.2	29.3
RP	Roberto Hernández	18.5	-0.6	19.1
RP	Kerry Wood	26.8	-0.2	27
RP	Mark Wohlers	3.8	0.2	3.6
RP	Jeff Russell	14.8	0	14.8
C	Lance Parrish	39.5	0	39.5
1B	Eddie Murray	68.7	1.9	66.8
2B	Granny Hamner	19.5	-0.4	19.9
SS	Leo Cardenas	27.2	-1.2	28.4
3B	Kevin Seitzer	28.9	0.6	28.3
OF	Frank Robinson	107.2	0.9	106.3
OF	Sam Rice	53.4	0.5	52.9
OF	Johnny Damon	56.3	0.3	56
DH	Ralph Kiner	47.9	0.1	47.8
			Total	769.5

Feels like we don't talk about Newhouser enough. I'm not sure if there's such a thing as an underrated Hall of Famer, but if there were, he'd have to be near the top of the list.

We have bullpen weirdness again, as Wohlers really didn't have a great career, at least by WAR, but he definitely has strong I've-heard-of-that-guy status. It's also important to note that the first base and DH positions to be solid enough to prevent Cecil Fielder from making the roster. Although he did play both second and third base once upon a time, so maybe we can squeeze him in. At the very least, it would give me an excuse to share one of my favorite box scores of all time.

Blue Jays vs. Mariners, 5/2/88

BATTING	AB	R	H	RBI	BB	SO	PA
Tony Fernandez SS	3	0	1	0	2	0	5
Juan Beniquez DH	2	0	1	1	1	0	3
Rance Mulliniks PH	2	0	1	0	0	1	2
Pat Borders C	3	0	0	0	0	0	3
Ernie Whitt PH-C	1	0	1	1	1	0	2
George Bell LF	4	0	0	0	1	1	5
Jesse Barfield RF-CF	3	0	0	0	1	1	4
Lloyd Moseby PH-CF	0	0	0	0	1	0	1
Kelly Gruber 2B-3B-2B -3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B- 3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B -2B-3B-2B	5	1	1	0	0	1	5
Cecil Fielder 3B-2B-3B -2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B- 2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B -3B-2B-3B	5	2	2	0	0	0	5
Fred McGriff 1B	4	1	2	0	1	2	5
Sil Campusano CF	2	0	0	0	0	1	2
Rick Leach PH-RF	3	1	1	3	0	0	3

 

I know what you're thinking: Wow, Rick Leach!

I waffled on Frank Robinson again, this time because he was pretty well-known for being a part of the Indians organization. But that was as a manager, and there were other cases of this (Lou Boudreau is the Red Sox shortstop, even though he managed them for three seasons, too.) My argument is that we're trying to conjure up an image of a player doing baseball-player things in that uniform, not shuffling around and cursing a lot. Robinson stays.

Mariners

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH MARINERS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Gaylord Perry	93	2.9	90.1
SP	Dennis Martínez	49.3	-1.1	50.4
SP	Kevin Millwood	30.7	0.9	29.8
SP	Yovani Gallardo	19.1	-0.3	19.4
SP	Jim Colborn	16.4	-0.6	17
RP	Goose Gossage	41.6	0.7	40.9
RP	Bobby Thigpen	7.8	-0.3	8.1
RP	Chad Cordero	7.4	-0.2	7.6
RP	Armando Benítez	17.4	0.3	17.1
C	Lance Parrish	36	0.1	35.9
1B	Mike Sweeney	24.8	0.8	24
2B	José Vidro	17.4	0.9	16.5
SS	Rich Aurilia	18.2	0.3	17.9
3B	Dave Hollins	17.8	1.1	16.7
OF	Rickey Henderson	111.2	1.3	109.9
OF	Gorman Thomas	19.8	0.5	19.3
OF	Jason Bay	24.7	0.5	24.2
DH	Rubén Sierra	16.8	0	16.8
			Total	561.6

Rickey Henderson really saved their bacon. Without that, we're talking 29th out of 30 teams, even with a three-decade head start on a lot of the newer expansion teams. It's a thoroughly uninspiring lineup. And Rickey. It's a thoroughly uninspiring rotation. And Gaylord Perry.

Just wait until you see the Marlins outfield. If Jerry Dipoto is truly a transactionophile, he'll remedy this post-haste.

Albert Pujols is available in the right deal.

Just sayin'.

Marlins

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH MARLINS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Carlos Zambrano	38.3	0.7	37.6
SP	Ismael Valdéz	24.5	3.6	20.9
SP	Randy Wolf	19.5	-0.3	19.8
SP	Byung-hyung Kim	11.1	-0.9	12
SP	Edinson Vólquez	7	0.6	6.4
RP	Junichi Tazawa	2.2	-1.6	3.8
RP	Carlos Mármol	9.7	-0.7	10.4
RP	Sergio Romo	10.5	0.2	10.3
RP	Paul Quantrill	18.1	-0.4	18.5
C	Mike Piazza	59.6	-0.1	59.7
1B	Carlos Lee	30.2	-0.1	30.3
2B	Neil Walker	20	0.6	19.4
SS	Rafael Furcal	39.5	-0.1	39.6
3B	Plácido Polanco	41.9	0.3	41.6
OF	Andre Dawson	64.8	-1	65.8
OF	Tim Raines	69.4	-0.1	69.5
OF	Ichiro!	59.7	0.2	59.5
DH	Luis González	51.7	-0.6	52.3
			Total	577.4

Way better than it has a right to be. Look at that outfield! That's three Hall of Famers, and even if the rotation and the rest of the lineup doesn't have a lot of Cooperstown gravitas, it's a minor coup to have an outfield that's more impressive than some of the original 16 teams.

But let's talk about the elephant in the room. Piazza doesn't quite fit within the context of this exercise. He was in his prime when he was traded to the Marlins for a few days, and the deal was so weird, so unlike what we're used to from a major trade, that everyone who was around for it remembers it.

It's funny, though. Piazza on the Marlins — the post-teardown 1998 Marlins, one of the saddest and most unnecessary teams in baseball history — is objectively funny. As such, he qualifies. Especially when you consider that the expansion teams were dealt an impossible task to start.

(Don't sleep on Plácido Polanco having a higher WAR total than a few of the Hall of Famers who appear in this article. Dude was good!)

Mets

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH METS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Warren Spahn	92.5	0	92.5
SP	Frank Tanana	57.1	0.7	56.4
SP	Orel Hershiser	51.4	1.9	49.5
SP	Mickey Lolich	47.9	1	46.9
SP	Bob Friend	46.8	-0.5	47.3
RP	Ricky Bottalico	6.2	1.1	5.1
RP	Clem Labine	14.3	-0.1	14.4
RP	Mike Marshall	17.2	0.6	16.6
RP	Ralph Terry	13.2	0.2	13
C	Yogi Berra	59.5	-0.1	59.6
1B	Gil Hodges	43.9	0.6	43.3
2B	Roberto Alomar	67	0.4	66.6
SS	Garry Templeton	27.9	-1.1	29
3B	Joe Torre	57.6	1.9	55.7
OF	Rickey Henderson	111.2	1.3	109.9
OF	Willie Mays	156.2	1.6	154.6
OF	Duke Snider	66	1.2	64.8
DH	Richie Ashburn	64.4	2.1	62.3
			Total	987.5

 

OK, this was a tough one.

Do you count Mays? It's ridiculous that he was on the Mets, but it doesn't surprise you. He had, er, memorable World Series moments with them.

Do you count Henderson? It's certainly not the first team that you think of when you remember his career, or the second or third. But he had an NLDS against the Diamondbacks that was absolutely scintillating.

Is this just about legends with a detour that you've forgotten? Or is it about random and unexpected team-player connections?

In the end, I'm leaving both on, if only because the Mets would have had awesome outfielders to take their place, so it's not like I'm rigging it in their favor. If you eliminate Mays and Henderson, you have Richie Ashburn, Gary Sheffield and Bobby Abreu to take their place.

They also have Dean Chance as a sixth starter and Adrián González on the bench. This a great wait-they-were-on-that-team lineup. If you adjust for them not existing until the '60s, this might be the best of all 30 teams.

Nationals/Expos

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH NATIONALS /EXPOS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Ron Darling	18.8	-0.6	19.4
SP	Dave McNally	24.8	-0.5	25.3
SP	Dan Haren	32.9	-0.1	33
SP	Bill Lee	21.4	2.6	18.8
SP	Oil Can Boyd	17.8	-0.2	18
RP	Brad Lidge	7.8	-0.8	8.6
RP	Lee Smith	29.3	-0.4	29.7
RP	Dick Radatz	16.1	-0.4	16.5
RP	Roy Face	21	0.5	20.5
C	Iván Rodríguez	68.7	0.3	68.4
1B	Pete Rose	79.7	0.3	79.4
2B	Maury Wills	39.8	-0.1	39.9
SS	Royce Clayton	19.5	-0.4	19.9
3B	Graig Nettles	68	-0.8	68.8
OF	Felipe Alou	42.3	-0.1	42.4
OF	Nate Colbert	14.2	-0.3	14.5
OF	Carl Everett	20.5	-0.5	21
DH	Carlos Baerga	19.6	-0.5	20.1
			Total	564.2

 

When I was a kid, my local baseball card shop had a bargain binder, and it was my favorite thing in the world. It's where I bought a heavily creased Roger Maris rookie card for $15 that's probably worth at least $16 today, and it's where I bought this baby for a dollar:

Some poor kid in 1969 just couldn't handle it. Wills was supposed to be on the Dodgers, dang it, and he or she needed this card to reflect that.

I love this card.

As long as we're on Baseball Card Story Hour, I also remember staring at a Pete Rose Expos baseball card when I was a kid — the one where he was either a special super star or a super special star — and being totally baffled. The Expos? Everyone knew that Rose was supposed to be on the Phillies. (Hey, I was eight.)

Anyway, this is not the greatest roster, especially when you realize that the Mets up there had just a six-season head start. If it makes them feel better, the Expos/Nationals would rank much higher on the "sent great players away to star for other franchises" team rankings.

This does not make them feel better.

Orioles

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH ORIOLES	DIFFERENCE
SP	Dizzy Dean	43.9	0.3	43.6
SP	Eddie Plank	87.7	6.8	80.9
SP	Fernando Valenzuela	37.4	0.5	36.9
SP	Virgil Trucks	42.3	2.2	40.1
SP	Doug Drabek	27.6	-1.4	29
RP	Max Lanier	30.4	-0.4	30.8
RP	Norm Charlton	8.5	-0.5	9
RP	Scott Williamson	8.7	0	8.7
RP	Sam Jones	20.2	0.1	20.1
C	Ernie Whitt	18.3	0.2	18.1
1B	Will Clark	56.5	3.5	53
2B	Rogers Hornsby	127.1	0.6	126.5
SS	Marty Marion	31.4	0.1	31.3
3B	George Kell	37.6	2.7	34.9
OF	Sammy Sosa	58.6	-1	59.6
OF	Dwight Evans	67.1	0.6	66.5
OF	Tim Raines	69.4	0.1	69.3
DH	Jim Thome	72.9	0	72.9
			Total	831.2

Relievers were a problem, as they were for a lot of teams, but the lineup kind of rules. It's also a strong defensive team if you ignore center field, and I'm tickled by the idea of Hornsby hitting behind Raines at the top of the order.

Mostly, though, this team makes me happy because it made me dig into Plank's history with the Orioles/St. Louis Browns, which led me to the 1917 Browns. This is a team that included ...

• Baby Doll Jacobson
• Scrappy Moore
• Speed Martin
• Grover Lowdermilk
• Rasty Wright
• Kewpie Pennington

This was not the golden age of excellent baseball names, just so you know. This was about 20 or 30 years after that. Which means it's a stellar collection.

Anyway, that team went 57-97, which disproves my theory about awesome names making awesome baseball teams. Unless it's just an issue with sample size, and I was right all along.

Padres

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH PADRES	DIFFERENCE
SP	Greg Maddux	104.8	3.2	101.6
SP	Mark Langston	50	-0.2	50.2
SP	Mickey Lolich	47.9	-0.4	48.3
SP	Fernando Valenzuela	37.4	3.5	33.9
SP	Jered Weaver	34.9	-1.2	36.1
RP	Jesse Orosco	22.9	-1.1	24
RP	Rod Beck	11.3	0.9	10.4
RP	Fernando Rodney	7.4	1.7	5.7
RP	Scott Williamson	8.7	-0.3	9
C	Mike Piazza	59.6	3	56.6
1B	Willie McCovey	64.5	5.3	59.2
2B	Ian Kinsler	55.2	-0.4	55.6
SS	Miguel Tejada	47.1	1.2	45.9
3B	Graig Nettles	68	5.9	62.1
OF	Willie Davis	60.8	1.7	59.1
OF	Rickey Henderson	111.2	4.1	107.1
OF	Jim Edmonds	60.4	-1	61.4
DH	Fred Lynn	50.2	-0.8	51
			Total	877.2

 

A very strong team, but it's notable because the Padres squeezed more out of these guys than any other franchise. A creaky-kneed McCovey in his late-30s? Two 20-homer seasons. An ancient Maddux, who was finally throwing with the velocity that everyone assumed he was throwing throughout his career for some reason? A pair of league-average seasons and Gold Gloves. Nettles had a 120 OPS+ for them when he was 40, fer cryin' out loud.

All of this makes me appreciate the genius of the example given for Champ's catchphrase in "Anchorman."

Anyway, I've become kind of famous for my signature catchphrase, "Whammy!" Like, Gene Tenace at the plate … and WHAMMY!

They could have used Nate Colbert or Dave Winfield, or they could have chosen a more random player, like Mike Ivie. But they picked a repurposed star, like Tenace, who was doing well, even if he wasn't quite where your brain expected him to be. It was a Very Padres example, and a nice touch.

Phillies

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH PHILLIES	DIFFERENCE
SP	Pedro Martínez	86.1	0.7	85.4
SP	Fernando Valenzuela	37.4	1.4	36
SP	Jerry Koosman	57	3.5	53.5
SP	Bob Buhl	28	-0.6	28.6
SP	A.J. Burnett	29.6	-0.1	29.7
RP	Bobby Thigpen	7.8	-0.3	8.1
RP	Dan Plesac	17.1	0.5	16.6
RP	Ugueth Urbina	13.3	0.1	13.2
RP	Sparky Lyle	22.8	-0.8	23.6
C	Gus Triandos	14.1	0.6	13.5
1B	Jimmie Foxx	93.1	0.3	92.8
2B	Joe Morgan	100.5	3.2	97.3
SS	Eddie Miller	22.2	0.4	21.8
3B	Alvin Dark	43.9	-0.1	44
OF	Harvey Kuenn	26	-0.1	26.1
OF	Dale Murphy	46.5	0.1	46.4
OF	Andy Van Slyke	41.3	0.3	41
DH	Lloyd Waner	27.9	0.5	27.4
			Total	705

Martínez at the top is a powerful flex, and it's one of the better starts to a roster. Foxx and Morgan are both first-round picks, so to speak, for this exercise, so the lineup was off to a great start, too. But for a team that's been around since 1883, it's a really disappointing overall collection. You've had nearly 150 years to find name-brand starting pitchers past their expiration date and all you can come up with is Burnett and Buhl?

We'll revisit this exercise in 2040, though. That way we can add in a lumbering Mike Trout, who will hit .220/.380/.490 in 300 at-bats and run like he's carrying a younger version of himself in his arms. Trust me, it'll be more exciting than it reads here.

Pirates

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH PIRATES	DIFFERENCE
SP	Jim Bunning	60.4	-0.9	61.3
SP	Sam McDowell	43.1	0.7	42.4
SP	Luis Tiant	65.6	0	65.6
SP	Ramón Martínez	25.9	-0.4	26.3
SP	Matt Morris	18.3	-0.1	18.4
RP	Mudcat Grant	19.3	0.6	18.7
RP	Joe Coleman	24.7	-0.6	25.3
RP	Roberto Hernández	18.5	0.2	18.3
RP	Joe Page	6.6	-0.8	7.4
C	Gene Tenace	46.8	-0.1	46.9
1B	Hank Greenberg	55.7	2.7	53
2B	Billy Herman	56	-0.2	56.2
SS	Johnny Logan	33.1	-0.4	33.5
3B	Jim Fregosi	48.7	0.5	48.2
OF	Heinie Manush	47.2	-0.2	47.4
OF	Kenny Lofton	68.4	1.7	66.7
OF	Dixie Walker	44.2	1.8	42.4
DH	Amos Otis	42.8	-0.8	43.6
			Total	721.6

 

Another disappointing roster from one of the original teams, and it's even more disappointing when you realize how much of the value comes from Lofton, who is almost like the "FREE SPACE" on every team's bingo card. There are only three Hall of Famers on the roster, after all. Four if you're mentally including Lofton because he should be in, which is entirely valid.

There were some quality players who didn't fit here, like Riper Collins, Ted Kluszewski and Lonnie Smith, but still. How did Rickey Henderson not play for the Pirates? Where is Omar Vizquel? Did they not even bother to call Steve Carlton after the Twins released him in 1988, or did Carlton not call them back? Either way, it's pretty surprising that this is all the Pirates have come up with.

They could probably get Pete Rose to manage and write himself into the lineup next year, though. Nobody's paying attention to this stuff right now.

Rangers

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH RANGERS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Roy Oswalt	49.9	-0.3	50.2
SP	Bartolo Colon	47.8	0.4	47.4
SP	Burt Hooton	36.4	0	36.4
SP	Bruce Hurst	34.5	-0.2	34.7
SP	Sonny Siebert	29.3	0.5	28.8
RP	Sparky Lyle	22.8	1.3	21.5
RP	Eric Gagne	11.7	1.5	10.2
RP	Ugueth Urbina	13.3	0.6	12.7
RP	Derek Lowe	33.1	-0.5	33.6
C	Darrell Porter	40.9	1.4	39.5
1B	Lance Berkman	52	-0.1	52.1
2B	Bud Harrelson	20.3	0.7	19.6
SS	Omar Vizquel	45.6	0.9	44.7
3B	Ken Caminiti	33.5	0.1	33.4
OF	Carlos Beltrán	70.1	0.3	69.8
OF	Kenny Lofton	68.4	1.9	66.5
OF	Andruw Jones	62.7	0.3	62.4
DH	Vladimir Guerrero	59.5	1.8	57.7
			Total	721.2

 

For a franchise that's been around only since 1961, this is a strong roster. It's even stronger if you put the outfielders who didn't make it on the bench. Minnie Miñoso! Sammy Sosa! Curt Flood! Willie Davis! I'd take an outfield made up of three of those guys over the Phillies' starting outfield, so this is a roster that contains multitudes.

What it lacks, though, is that ultra-ultra-inner-circle Hall of Famer, like Rickey Henderson or Jimmie Foxx. Heck, they have only one HOF guy on the roster, albeit with some HOF-caliber players like Lofton, Jones and Beltrán, all of whom might get in at some point. (Beltrán was probably a lock before the trash can stuff.)

Rays

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH RAYS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Dwight Gooden	48.2	-0.5	48.7
SP	Hideo Nomo	21.8	-1.4	23.2
SP	Juan Guzmán	24.5	-0.4	24.9
SP	Bobby Witt	14.7	0.8	13.9
SP	Erik Bedard	17.4	-0.4	17.8
RP	Troy Percival	17.1	-0.5	17.6
RP	Norm Charlton	8.5	0.5	8
RP	Jason Isringhausen	12.3	0.2	12.1
RP	Heath Bell	7.2	-0.6	7.8
C	Charles Johnson	22.6	0.1	22.5
1B	Tino Martinez	29	2.4	26.6
2B	Julio Franco	43.6	0	43.6
SS	Ozzie Guillén	20.9	1	19.9
3B	Wade Boggs	91.4	1.2	90.2
OF	Johnny Damon	56.3	2.5	53.8
OF	José Canseco	42.5	3.7	38.8
OF	Grady Sizemore	27.7	0.4	27.3
DH	Manny Ramirez	69.3	-0.3	69.6
			Total	566.3

Is it fair to list a player on one of these rosters if his number is retired by the franchise in question? It is, but only if that number retirement is the silliest in the history of number retirements, regardless of sports.

Boggs appeared in 213 games for the Rays, and he hit .289 for them. Delmon Young appeared in 215 games for the Rays, and he hit .291 for them. With more power, even.

Retire 15!

Retire 15!

Retire 15!

Who's with me? We need to retire Young's number in Tampa! Retire 15!

I guess the idea was that Boggs got his 3,000th hit with the Rays, so they were trying to reconstitute a mug of freeze-dried instant history, but it's absolutely embarrassing, and you know there were a lot of people who tried to explain this to an oblivious old, rich dude who wouldn't listen.

Anyway, this is a really strong roster for a franchise that's been around only for a couple of decades. I'm not sure if even Nomo remembers he was on the Rays.

Red Sox

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH RED SOX	DIFFERENCE
SP	Tom Seaver	106	2	104
SP	John Smoltz	66.4	-0.8	67.2
SP	Juan Marichal	61.8	-0.1	61.9
SP	Dizzy Trout	45.2	1.1	44.1
SP	Jack Chesbro	42.7	-0.1	42.8
RP	Billy Wagner	27.8	0.3	27.5
RP	Eric Gagne	11.7	-0.2	11.9
RP	Bobby Jenks	8.3	-0.4	8.7
RP	Mike Remlinger	11.4	-0.6	12
C	Elston Howard	27.1	-0.6	27.7
1B	John Olerud	58.1	0.7	57.4
2B	Eddie Joost	31.4	-0.7	32.1
SS	Lou Boudreau	63	1.3	61.7
3B	Ken Keltner	33.2	0	33.2
OF	"Bucketfoot" Aloysius Harry Simmons	68	-0.8	68.8
OF	Rickey Henderson	111.2	0.4	110.8
OF	Jesse Burkett	62.8	2.7	60.1
DH	Orlando Cepeda	50.1	1.5	48.6
			Total	880.5

 

One of the best rotations of the entire exercise, and I'm transfixed by their ability to drive pitchers batty. Let's say you lead off with Henderson, who draws a walk on nine pitches. Then you follow with Joost, who grounds out, but on eight pitches. Then you have Boudreau, who had 98 walks to just nine strikeouts in 1948, followed by Olerud's stellar eye. By the time Cepeda comes up in the first, the starting pitcher has thrown 30 pitches, and he's already thinking about going back to the hotel room.

Important style-guide note: It is mandatory to refer to Al Simmons by his full name, "Bucketfoot" Aloysius Harry Simmons. The only exception is if you refer to him as Hall of Famer "Bucketfoot" Aloysius Harry Simmons. These are not my rules, but you're required to abide by them.

Reds

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH REDS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Frank Viola	47.1	-0.3	47.4
SP	Camilo Pascual	37.5	-0.2	37.7
SP	Jerry Reuss	32.9	-0.7	33.6
SP	Larry Jansen	23.1	0.2	22.9
SP	Dontrelle Willis	15.4	-0.3	15.7
RP	Kent Tekulve	26.1	-0.7	26.8
RP	Mark Wohlers	3.8	0.2	3.6
RP	Lee Smith	29.3	0.6	28.7
RP	Jeff Reardon	19	0	19
C	Walker Cooper	27.3	1.4	25.9
1B	Harry Heilmann	72.1	4.5	67.6
2B	Tony Fernández	45.3	1.6	43.7
SS	Edgar Rentería	32.4	0.8	31.6
3B	Terry Pendleton	28.5	-0.1	28.6
OF	"Bucketfoot" Aloysius Harry Simmons	68	-0.3	68.3
OF	Paul Blair	37.7	-1.6	39.3
OF	Jim Edmonds	60.4	-0.1	60.5
DH	Sherry Magee	59.4	4.5	54.9
			Total	655.8

 

This is supposed to be the oldest franchise in baseball, right? Where are the Hall of Fame starting pitchers? Really, it's possible to make a lot of rough lists when it comes to Reds starting pitchers throughout history. Quick: list the 10-greatest homegrown starting pitchers in Reds history. Now do it for the years after World War II. And if you're just looking for the most productive Reds pitchers since 1980, the list includes three relievers and Elmer Dessens.

This isn't to make fun of the Reds, who have been very successful and have won more games than they've lost over 139 seasons. It's to point out that they've long had a strange history when it comes to starting pitchers, so we shouldn't be surprised that this extends to other team's starting pitchers.

Rockies

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH ROCKIES	DIFFERENCE
SP	Jamie Moyer	50	-0.5	50.5
SP	Roy Oswalt	49.9	-0.9	50.8
SP	Bruce Hurst	34.5	0.1	34.4
SP	Kevin Millwood	30.7	0.8	29.9
SP	Jon Garland	22.4	0.1	22.3
RP	José Mesa	11.4	1.3	10.1
RP	Todd Jones	10.3	-0.8	11.1
RP	Juan Rincón	4.7	-0.1	4.8
RP	Stan Belinda	5.3	-0.7	6
C	Sandy Alomar	13.7	-0.2	13.9
1B	Jason Giambi	50.5	0.9	49.6
2B	Melvin Mora	28.3	0	28.3
SS	Royce Clayton	19.5	1.1	18.4
3B	Howard Johnson	22.2	-0.7	22.9
OF	Dale Murphy	46.5	-0.9	47.4
OF	Steve Finley	44.2	-1.2	45.4
OF	Greg Vaughn	30.8	-0.1	30.9
DH	Jeromy Burnitz	19.9	1.3	18.6
			Total	495.3

Again, you have to grade the newest expansion teams on a curve, so you can give the Rockies a little extra credit for snatching Murphy up for their inaugural season. And the rotation is better than it has a right to be, especially when you consider that Coors Field is exactly the wrong place for an older veteran who has lost a few ticks off his fastball.

This is the only roster without a Hall of Famer, though. You might have thoughts about Murphy's candidacy, and I'm a big-Hall guy who is sympathetic to the argument that he should be in, but it doesn't look like he'll be inducted any time soon. So if the Rockies trade for Miguel Cabrera this season, allow yourself a tiny bit of excitement. They'll finally have a slightly used Hall of Famer. They'll have finally made it.

Royals

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH ROYALS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Gaylord Perry	93	0.5	92.5
SP	Vida Blue	44.9	1.9	43
SP	Mike Boddicker	31.4	2.7	28.7
SP	Tom Browning	19.5	-0.1	19.6
SP	Richard Dotson	16	-0.9	16.9
RP	Mark Davis	7.4	-1	8.4
RP	Lindy McDaniel	29	0.9	28.1
RP	Mitch Williams	7.2	-0.3	7.5
RP	Joe Hoerner	10.2	0.7	9.5
C	Jason Kendall	41.7	0.5	41.2
1B	Harmon Killebrew	60.4	-0.1	60.5
2B	Ron Hansen	24.1	-0.1	24.2
SS	Miguel Tejada	47.1	0.3	46.8
3B	George Scott	36.5	0	36.5
OF	Vada Pinson	54.2	0.1	54.1
OF	Terry Puhl	28.4	-0.1	28.5
OF	Juan González	38.7	0.5	38.2
DH	Orlando Cepeda	50.1	-0.5	50.6
			Total	634.8

Take a moment to appreciate that Vince Coleman also qualified for this roster, if only because he just feels like a legacy Royals player. I remember his three stolen bases in the 2015 World Series like it was yesterday.

Because I'm a nerd who has spent the last decade of my life extracting every last scrap of ore from the Baseball-Reference mines, there weren't a lot of surprises for me while doing this. The sheer depth of the Dodgers roster stunned me. Tiant on the Angels was unexpected. But Harmon Killebrew on the Royals might have been the biggest surprise of them all. Not necessarily that he played for the Royals, but that he was there for the start of a very specific era of Royals baseball. Check out the lineup they used on May 31, 1975:

1. Amos Otis - CF
2. Vada Pinson - RF
3. Hal McRae - LF
4. Harmon Killebrew - DH
5. John Mayberry - 1B
6. George Brett - 3B
7. Fran Healy - C
8. Frank White - 2B
9. Freddie Patek - SS

I'm not saying it's the greatest historical lineup ever assembled, but there is a lot of baseball history packed into that random lineup from 1975. So while the Royals don't have the most impressive roster, it's a lot of fun that they had Killebrew and Pinson together at the start of their '70s/'80s powerhouse.

Tigers

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH TIGERS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Jim Perry	38.4	3.5	34.9
SP	Freddy García	34.4	0.3	34.1
SP	General Crowder	29	1.8	27.2
SP	Hideo Nomo	21.8	2.6	19.2
SP	Randy Wolf	19.5	-0.8	20.3
RP	Troy Percival	17.1	-0.4	17.5
RP	Gerry Staley	21.5	0.1	21.4
RP	Roy Face	21	0.1	20.9
RP	Joe Nathan	26.4	-0.3	26.7
C	Tom Haller	29.3	0.2	29.1
1B	Ferris Fain	27.2	1.2	26
2B	Bill Madlock	38.2	1.4	36.8
SS	Hughie Jennings	42.3	0	42.3
3B	Eddie Mathews	96.2	1.1	95.1
OF	Larry Doby	49.3	-0.6	49.9
OF	Earl Averill	51.1	0.3	50.8
OF	Sam Thompson	44.4	-0.1	44.5
DH	Frank Howard	37.6	-0.1	37.7
			Total	634.4

This gets tricky. Jennings was a famous manager for the Tigers, winning three straight pennants with them back when that was just as important, if not more, than winning the World Series. Edgar Rentería would be the backup choice if you don't agree (32.4 career WAR, with 1.1 coming with the Tigers).

Even with me putting my thumb on the scales like that to get the Tigers an extra Hall of Famer, they fare poorly. The lineup is fine enough, but the pitching is rough, especially for a team that's been around for 120 seasons. They couldn't even get the right Perry brother.

Twins/Senators

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH TWINS	DIFFERENCE
SP	Steve Carlton	84.1	-1.4	85.5
SP	Bartolo Colon	47.8	0.3	47.5
SP	Joe Niekro	28.7	-1.4	30.1
SP	Lefty Gomez	43.2	-0.2	43.4
SP	Bill Singer	19.4	0.4	19
RP	Tippy Martinez	8.6	-0.3	8.9
RP	Steve Bedrosian	15.4	-0.1	15.5
RP	Jesse Orosco	22.9	0	22.9
RP	Frank Sullivan	23	-0.1	23.1
C	John Roseboro	22.5	0.8	21.7
1B	George Sisler	54	-0.4	54.4
2B	Bret Boone	22.9	-1.1	24
SS	Johnny Pesky	33.8	-0.3	34.1
3B	Harlond Clift	41.5	1.8	39.7
OF	Rondell White	28.2	-1.5	29.7
OF	Rubén Sierra	16.8	-0.2	17
OF	Dave Winfield	64.2	0.3	63.9
DH	Don Baylor	28.5	-0.1	28.6
			Total	609

This is the worst of all the original 16 teams, and I can't figure out where the Twins/Senators went wrong. They have Hall of Famers (Carlton, Gomez, Sisler, Winfield), but they don't have inner-circle HOF players, with the exception of Carlton. And without that kind of head start, they're dragged down by a preponderance of good-not-great players, like Boone and Sierra.

This gives us a chance to appreciate Harlond Clift, one of baseball's more underrated players. His teams were 638-925 in the games he appeared in over his career. That's the equivalent of a 66-96 team over a 162-game season, and this went on for 12 years. He appeared on just one winning team in his career, the third-place 1942 Browns. He was traded to the Senators during the 1943 season. Then the 1944 Browns won the American League pennant without him.

This is from his SABR biography:

After the 1953 season, the St. Louis Browns moved to Baltimore to become the Orioles. The Washington Senators became the Minnesota Twins in 1961. Clift reportedly was heartbroken that the only two Major League franchises he had played for both ceased to exist. He said, "I have no ballclub anymore."

And so is this:

He reportedly broke down and cried when he received an invitation to an old-timer's game at New York's Shea Stadium, so surprised was he to be remembered at all.

Poor, poor Harlond Clift. I just wanna hug him.

White Sox

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH WHITE SOX	DIFFERENCE
SP	Steve Carlton	84.1	0.7	83.4
SP	Dave Stieb	56.5	-0.4	56.9
SP	Red Ruffing	55.4	-0.9	56.3
SP	Claude Osteen	36.8	1.9	34.9
SP	Jerry Reuss	32.9	2.6	30.3
RP	Dave Righetti	21.3	0.8	20.5
RP	Sparky Lyle	22.8	0.3	22.5
RP	Rob Dibble	9.5	-0.2	9.7
RP	Jeff Nelson	14.7	0.1	14.6
C	Smoky Burgess	33.3	1.3	32
1B	Ted Kluszewski	31.4	0.6	30.8
2B	Roberto Alomar	67	-0.7	67.7
SS	Jimmy Rollins	47.6	-0.4	48
3B	Ron Santo	70.5	-1.6	72.1
OF	George Foster	44.2	-0.2	44.4
OF	Ken Griffey Jr.	83.8	0.4	83.4
OF	Andruw Jones	62.7	1.9	60.8
DH	Manny Ramírez	69.3	0.2	69.1
			Total	837.4

Rocky Colavito and George Foster were a virtual tie, so the tiebreaker went to the MVP, but considering that you could also put Colavito at pitcher, maybe he's a better choice. Your call.

This is a strong, strong roster, with power throughout the lineup, and I enjoy how a large chunk of their lineup is players I remember watching. Imagine Rollins and Alomar in the same keystone in 2000, or Jones and Griffey in the same outfield toward the end of the millennium. It would have been something, all right.

Yankees

POSITION	PLAYERS	CAREER WAR	WAR WITH YANKEES	DIFFERENCE
SP	Gaylord Perry	93	-0.3	93.3
SP	Luis Tiant	65.6	2.6	63
SP	Frank Tanana	57.1	0.2	56.9
SP	Wes Ferrell	48.9	-0.7	49.6
SP	Jim Kaat	45.2	0	45.2
RP	Lee Smith	29.3	0.5	28.8
RP	Kerry Wood	26.8	1.5	25.3
RP	Jeff Reardon	19	-0.3	19.3
RP	Jesse Orosco	22.9	-0.4	23.3
C	Iván Rodríguez	68.7	-0.8	69.5
1B	Lance Berkman	52	-0.3	52.3
2B	Bert Campaneris	53.1	0.2	52.9
SS	Troy Tulowitzki	44.5	0.1	44.4
3B	Toby Harrah	51.4	0.5	50.9
OF	Paul Waner	73.9	0	73.9
OF	Andruw Jones	62.7	1.1	61.6
OF	Kenny Lofton	68.4	1.4	67
DH	José Cruz	54.4	-0.5	54.9
			Total	932.1

 

Another near-miss for Colavito, as Cruz's numbers were just a teensy bit stronger. Matt Holliday also missed out. If there's something impressive about this roster, it's at how many just-missed Hall of Famers there are. The entire infield is filled with them. So is the outfield, apart from Big Poison. If you had to pick four pitchers to embody what it means to be a just-missed Hall of Famer, could you do better than Tiant, Tanana, Ferrell and Kaat?

Considering the Yankees were the team that brought us Willie Randolph, Bernie Williams, Jorgé Posada and Andy Pettitte, though, this is absolutely perfect. Maybe the problem is that nobody pays attention to the Yankees, so all of these players are overlooked. Maybe it's time for the media to focus on the Yankees a little bit and give them the attention they've always deserved.

Worth considering.

Please stop throwing things at me.

Sorry, I was just spitballin'.

Kind of like Gaylord Perry, the ace of this Yankees staff. Which brings us full circle.

Here we go, the final rankings:

RANK	TEAM	WAR
1	Dodgers	1047.9
2	Braves	989
3	Mets	987.5
4	Giants	963.3
5	Yankees	932.1
6	A's	898.1
7	Red Sox	880.5
8	Padres	877.2
9	White Sox	837.4
10	Orioles	831.2
11	Cubs	798.2
12	Angels	793.5
13	Indians	769.5
14	Cardinals	757.8
15	Astros	741.7
16	Pirates	721.6
17	Rangers	721.2
18	Phillies	719.6
19	Reds	655.8
20	Royals	634.8
21	Tigers	634.4
22	Brewers	626.5
23	Twins	609
24	Blue Jays	606.5
25	Marlins	577.4
26	Rays	566.3
27	Nationals	564.2
28	Mariners	561.6
29	Rockies	495.3
30	Diamondbacks	437.2

It's the Dodgers on top, and there's approximately a Hall of Famer between them and the next team, which is especially impressive when you consider that team started with Cy Young and Babe Ruth. The Mets and Padres had tremendous rosters for teams that didn't exist until the 1960s, and we're going to need to have a long talk with the Twins and Tigers, who are hanging out with the expansion teams near the bottom.

Thanks for reading, and stay tuned for my next dumb and laborious research project, which is the we-should-have-kept-him teams for every franchise. If I write and research at the same pace it took this article, it should be ready by, oh, 2025.

If we still have a functioning society, I'll see you then.

[ss13 1832]

Another good one from Shoenfield... 

Eight amazing MLB seasons that could only happen in the 1980s

[Beau Vine 54432]

 

[Shoxthemonkey 1983]

Dammit @Beau Vine, you made me tear up.  I don't know who @katiedaymusic16 is but that music is perfect for the video. The lyrics are outstanding.

Don’t let em say it’s just a game And there are better things to do

'Cause we’re all lookin' for a reason, for a story, for something to hold onto

We’ve had rhythm all along Artists, storytellers, gods

And we’ve always had a game to play so don’t tell me it don’t matter if it’s gone

As our sons become fathers And our fathers fade away

Then the time comes when even we are gone Lord willin', whoever’s left still plays

All these holy grounds we’ve built And these gods we’ve come to know

They find us when the days are long and leave us in the winter dark and cold

But now the weeks are ticking by And I can’t measure out the time

Does the grass outside keep growin, do they mow it, do they keep the fields just right

And as our girls become mothers And our mothers fade away

Then the time comes when even we are gone Lord willin', whoever’s left still plays

So don’t you say it’s just a game Like you got better things to do

'Cause we’re all lookin' for a hero, for a savior, for a god

We’re all lookin' for distractions and to have a little fun

We’re all lookin' for a drink or drug or person who can take away the pain

We’re all lookin' for a game to play

 

Motherfuck, I miss baseball.

[CBT 1285]

 

 

[ss13 1832]

 

 

[TonyTexas 10530]

For whatever reason, Manfred loves this stupid runner on 2nd in extra innings idea. I guess if they were ever going to try it, this would be the season to do it. The schedule is going to be tight with more doubleheader’s and fewer off days. Wanting to avoid marathon games would be understandable. Let him get it out of his system. 

[ss13 1832]

Damn, gonna be wild. 

 

 

[TonyTexas 10530]

There are a lot a players that are getting fucked by this 5 round draft. Also, the teams with high slot money totals are getting hamstrung as well. They can’t sign their early picks for under slot and use the savings for later round guys. The most they can give players outside of rounds 1-5 is $20K. Will be good for the college game though. Way fewer recruits and juniors will jump to the pros. Even most seniors will probably come back now. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by TonyTexas

[Helobious 9464]

Derped

Edited May 9, 2020 by Helobious

[Helobious 9464]

6 hours ago, ss13 said:

 

 

Will be hard to play teams if you can’t even leave your county. Not even the Yankees & Mets could play each other. It’ll be a whole season of Cubs/White Sox & (I think) Dodgers/Angels.

[ss13 1832]

^ Your Giancarlo O/U 10 bombs bet would be looking stellar right about now. 

[Helobious 9464]

Part of me wanted the season to be cancelled so that my Yankee season thread title could never be proven incorrect.

[WBT 20670]

13 hours ago, TonyTexas said:

For whatever reason, Manfred loves this stupid runner on 2nd in extra innings idea. I guess if they were ever going to try it, this would be the season to do it. The schedule is going to be tight with more doubleheader’s and fewer off days. Wanting to avoid marathon games would be understandable. Let him get it out of his system. 

F manfred.  Give him an inch, he'll take a mile

You know what baseball needs?  To be more like beer league softball!

Edited May 9, 2020 by WBT

[Don Johnson 4756]

15 hours ago, TonyTexas said:

There are a lot a players that are getting fucked by this 5 round draft. Also, the teams with high slot money totals are getting hamstrung as well. They can’t sign their early picks for under slot and use the savings for later round guys. The most they can give players outside of rounds 1-5 is $20K. Will be good for the college game though. Way fewer recruits and juniors will jump to the pros. Even most seniors will probably come back now. 

College baseball is going to be stacked next year.  What a year for college teams that have top recruiting classes. They will get most everyone on campus. 

[TonyTexas 10530]

3 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

College baseball is going to be stacked next year.  What a year for college teams that have top recruiting classes. They will get most everyone on campus. 

You will see a ton of high school players go the Juco route so they don’t have wait until after their junior year to go pro. 

[David Dennison 18947]

11 hours ago, Helobious said:

Will be hard to play teams if you can’t even leave your county. Not even the Yankees & Mets could play each other. It’ll be a whole season of Cubs/White Sox & (I think) Dodgers/Angels.

Not even Dodgers/Angels.

[Beau Vine 54432]

17 hours ago, ss13 said:

Damn, gonna be wild. 

 

 

I can't believe the MLBPA okayed that $20K cap.  Looking forward to seeing how teams try to get around that rule.

[TonyTexas 10530]

I can't believe the MLBPA okayed that $20K cap.  Looking forward to seeing how teams try to get around that rule.

It’s not hard to justify with these numbers

And it gets worse


Looking at how many draftees end up serving as more than a callup/fill-in sees that number drops dramatically again. Very rarely are there 100 draftees in a draft who manage to produce 0.1 WAR. Only 9.8 percent of draftees who signed have managed to register 0.1 career WAR, which is roughly 83 players per season.

[WBT 20670]

MLBN is showing Tony Gwynn games today for his birthday.  The '94 ASG is finishing up now then a 6-hit game and then his 3,000th hit game.

[ss13 1832]

Shitty quality, but I’ve always thought the Edmonds catch was GOAT. 

 

 

[ss13 1832]

Here we go. 

 

[Beau Vine 54432]

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Beau Vine

[Beau Vine 54432]

 

[ss13 1832]

Still taking Jimmy over GMJ. 

[Post Oak 20276]

In honor of what would be Tony Gwynns 60th some ridiculous stats.

 

 

[Beau Vine 54432]

I happened to be at the HoF the week after he died:

[Elmer_Fudd 22317]

22 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

 

Man we were at this game sitting in right-center and got a great view of it from the side.  Can still see it today thinking back to it.

[Elmer_Fudd 22317]

18 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

I happened to be at the HoF the week after he died:

I got a baseball card signed by Tony Gwynn at the Astrodome when I was a kid.  Think he signed for everybody around from the dugout all the way down the left field line.

[Jshep34 2321]

Jr and Tony are 2 autographs id love to have

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[clapclapclap 9000]

Sorry, there is a problem

Something went wrong. Please try again.

Error code: EX1048

 

 

For some reason every time I click the last page of this thread from the Baseball menu, when not logged in, I get this.  Have to click on the first page to get in the thread, then click on the last page to open it.  Only thread I've seen this happen, been going on for more than a week.

Edited May 11, 2020 by clapclapclap
Offseason world problems

[TonyTexas 10530]

The owners have green lit a plan for the season and will send it to the union tomorrow. A big snag will be players salaries. It had already been agreed that they would be prorated over the number of gains played. The hang up is that this agreement was made without taking into consideration playing in empty stadiums and the subsequent lost revenue. Obviously the players don’t want to give up any more and the owners want a further reduction by pegging salaries to revenues. I understand both sides and hope they can work it out. 

[clapclapclap 9000]

More details:

https://nypost.com/2020/05/11/mlb-to-send-coronavirus-return-proposal-to-union-on-tuesday/

Spoiler

MLB owners agreed Monday to the proposal that will be officially sent to the Players Association with the hope of initiating a new round of negotiations as early as Tuesday that most optimistically would begin spring training in about a month and start the season in the first week of July.

The 30 control people for the teams were briefed Monday by commissioner Rob Manfred and his staff on what exactly will be put on paper and given to the union for its perusal. MLB and the Players Association have been informally speaking for weeks about these issues, so the union already has a strong idea about what the key elements will be.

The current plan is likely to offer an 82-game schedule in which teams would play against division rivals and the regional division in the other league — so the AL East vs. the NL East, for example. It is possible teams will play longer series than three or four games. That plus the regionalizing of the schedule is designed to limit as much travel as possible.

The current plan is for 30-man rosters, at least initially, with a 20-man taxi squad to provide depth as the season goes along. There also will be a proposal for a universal DH and playoffs expanded from 10 to 14 teams.

Still, the hope is to play the postseason in as much of October as possible, preferably in home stadiums if neutral sites can be avoided. MLB is concerned about a second wave of the coronavirus coming and making games in November more untenable. And there also are concerns that pushing into November could put MLB into even greater conflict with a multitude of other sporting events and leagues that are having to redo their schedules as well.

All of these issues are expected to take further negotiations but not provide considerable hurdles to agreement — though the union is believed to want to play as many regular-season games as possible, so more than 82, because players are paid during a regular season.

The big obstacles are going to be MLB’s ability to display protocols, personnel and equipment that make the players feel safe about returning not only to stadiums, but to buses, planes and hotels. And then there is the issue of pay.

MLB’s proposal is going to offer the players a percentage of revenue — USA Today reported it would be 50 percent.

The union is currently locked into that as a non-starter. First, the Players Association has always seen any shared revenue plan as putting them on a slippery slope to a salary cap. Second, the union has stated that the March 26 agreement with MLB guaranteed them a prorated portion of their 2020 salaries for games played — so 50.6 percent in an 82-game season.

MLB has said the March 26 agreement states that pay would have to be discussed further if games were not played with spectators — and if the MLB season gets started it will at least begin without fans. The union has said that item in the March 26 pact had to do with the Manfred’s right to financially decide if it was worthwhile to start without fans not change the player’s salary structure. Plus, the union feels that its players are the ones who would be taking on the risks to play without a vaccine and should not have to be further stripped of pay.

MLB has said that roughly 40 percent of its revenue is derived from ticket sales and its associated items such as concessions, souvenirs, parking, luxury boxes, etc.

Just how entrenched both sides are in these positions will become more obvious with the union officially receiving a document Tuesday and subsequent negotiations on the content.

 

[clapclapclap 9000]

More:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-2020-season-plan-owners-approve-league-proposal-will-submit-to-players-union-tuesday-report-says/

...In an effort to recoup revenue and make things a little more fair following a shortened regular season, MLB will propose an expanded postseason field. Specifically, they are expected to propose the seven-teams-per-league format that was leaked over the winter. Here's a refresher on how that would work:

Teams with the best record in each league get a wild card round bye.

Two other division winners and top wild card team host all games of three-game series in wild card round.

Two other division winners get to pick their wild card round opponents. The other two wild cad teams are paired up.

Players are not paid salaries during the postseason, but they do receive bonuses through postseason shares, and the MLBPA would presumably be on board with an expanded format. Maybe not this format, specifically, but a format that puts more teams in the tournament, generates more revenue, and leads to more postseason shares.

It should be noted plans to play additional regular season games in October and push the postseason back into November have been shelved for the time being. MLB doesn't want to have to shut down the sport in the middle of the postseason if here's another COVID-19 wave in the fall. Their goal is to play as many regular season games and a complete postseason as quickly as possible.

Revenue-sharing plan

Despite agreeing to prorated salaries in March, MLB and the owners will seek additional pay reductions from the MLBPA to account for the revenue lost by not having fans in the stands. MLB will propose a 50/50 revenue split in 2020. How that money is distributed among the players is presumably up to the MLBPA to figure out.

Revenue sharing arrangements are common in other sports -- NFL players get 48 percent, NHL players get 50 percent, and NBA players get 49 to 51 percent depending on expected revenue -- but it would be unprecedented in MLB. MLBPA executive director Tony Clark has said the union is done negotiating salary terms after agreeing to prorated salaries. The salary reduction issue figures to be the most significant hurdle that has to be cleared....

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With 40% of revenues coming from fans in the stands (tickets, parking, food, drinks, gift shops, etc.) everyone's going to have to take a haircut.  Owners should take the majority of that, since the players are taking the health risk, but if Clark really doesn't give an inch the fans will turn on the players.  Great Depression level unemployment and  not returning to full employment for years during a likely tumultuous economic realignment.

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by clapclapclap

[Bartles 769]

I agree, the players will have no public support for very understandable reasons. But I do suspect the difference in amount owed (prorated vs. pct of total revenue) is a drop in the bucket to most owners. And we don't know for sure there won't be fan revenue of some sort, like if they can sell parking lots for socially-distanced tailgating, etc.

Really hope it gets worked out soon, but being a sports labor dispute, I'm sure it will be ugly and drag until the last moment

[TonyTexas 10530]

The MLBPA is the most powerful union in major sports. The owners are definitely in austerity mode. Look at what they are doing with MILB and the draft. Both sides have incentive to work it out. But it could turn into a dogfight.

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by TonyTexas

[Helobious 9464]

Some long-term changes that I think will stick from all this...

Universal DH, realignment, reduced draft, expanded playoffs. Reduced spring training as well once they realize it doesn’t actually take anywhere near a month & a half to get acclimated to gameplay.

[SimonBolivar 10959]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

Some long-term changes that I think will stick from all this...

1.)Universal DH, 2.)realignment, 3.)reduced draft,4.) expanded playoffs.5.) Reduced spring training as well once they realize it doesn’t actually take anywhere near a month & a half to get acclimated to gameplay.

1.) Doubt it

2.) No way

3.) Yep ($$$)

4.) Yep ($$$)

5.) Nah people buy tickets in spring training