2020 General MLB off-season

[WBT 20707]

F manfred for using this to try to push through his mickey mouse playoff changes

[TonyTexas 10537]

Good analysis of the issues re coming to an agreement to start the season 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29161983/passan-20-questions-why-financial-battle-2020-mlb-season-get-really-really-ugly

 

[David Dennison 18994]

I hope the players don't give an inch.

[TonyTexas 10537]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I hope the players don't give an inch.

So you are hoping there won’t be a season?

[David Dennison 18994]

1 minute ago, TonyTexas said:

So you are hoping there won’t be a season?

I don't think there will be one no matter what happens with labor and management.

[TonyTexas 10537]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I don't think there will be one no matter what happens with labor and management.

Then the discussion is moot. 

[Beau Vine 54489]

I have trouble believing that the owners/Manfred thought there was any way that the MLBPA would accept this revenue sharing part of it.

[TonyTexas 10537]

The problem comes from not implementing a no-fan contingency in the March agreement to pro rate salaries. Now it’s a cluster fuck. Assuming the MLB claim that 40% of revenues is from ticket sales, concessions etc is true then you can conclude that team revenues will be down approximately 70% with a 81 game, no-fan season. That’s a pretty big gap to fill in negotiations. 

[ss13 1832]

Tony, you & I both know Dennison doesn’t want the sport to resume. His entire goal is to be able to post about sign stealing. 

[Beau Vine 54489]

I'll call it right now -- no season.  The owners have decided that it would be more valuable to start the process of breaking the union than to play half a season fraught with risk and uncertainty for a fraction of normal revenues.

[htown85 159]

1 hour ago, TonyTexas said:

The problem comes from not implementing a no-fan contingency in the March agreement to pro rate salaries. Now it’s a cluster fuck. Assuming the MLB claim that 40% of revenues is from ticket sales, concessions etc is true then you can conclude that team revenues will be down approximately 70% with a 81 game, no-fan season. That’s a pretty big gap to fill in negotiations. 

This is the root of the problem.  I don't know why the players insisted on the no-fan contingency...but the agreement they made in April means nothing now.  

[TonyTexas 10537]

15 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I'll call it right now -- no season.  The owners have decided that it would be more valuable to start the process of breaking the union than to play half a season fraught with risk and uncertainty for a fraction of normal revenues.

That is an excellent point. The contact expires after next season.  But the MLBPA is pretty powerful and will be  a tough nut to crack. If main issue becomes revenue sharing, get ready for a strike. 

[David Dennison 18994]

41 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I'll call it right now -- no season.  The owners have decided that it would be more valuable to start the process of breaking the union than to play half a season fraught with risk and uncertainty for a fraction of normal revenues.

The CBA negotiations should be fun.

[Pato del Muerto 52678]

So, who can name the only player to catch two perfect games?

[Beau Vine 54489]

I can!  I've always had sort of a fetish for left-handed hitting catchers.

[Js1 85653]

2 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

I can!  I've always had sort of a fetish for left-handed hitting catchers.

Kinky

[TonyTexas 10537]

 

[Bartles 769]

I don't want to overreact at the start of negotiations, especially since neither side has any reason to budge before early June. But fuck the owners if they shut it down because they'd lose $150 million instead of (wild guess) losing $120 million. I'm sure their accountants can game it out like it never happened either way.

And they can find other revenue streams with no fans. Merchandise sales, paid zoom pre-game clubhouse access (or in-game dugout access), open the parking lots like drive-in theaters. Like Beau Vine said, if there's no season it's purely a move to crush the union.

[HRSchenker 2275]

Yeah I'm 90% confident that we won't have a 2020 season. The players already agreed to take a hair cut and there is no way the union allows a full buzz without a compromise that the owners have already said won't happen. 

This is going to devistate the sport. Hardcore fans and some season ticket holders are going to stay but casuals will either find a new sport to follow or refuse to watch as they struggle to comprehend millionaires fighting billionaires. All of this while nearly 40 million people are out of work in an economy we haven't seen since the great depression. 

[Jameslaw121 4452]

And so short sighted - They could have close to a 3 month monopoly on televised sports. ESPN and other sports networks would only have MLB to report on. Maybe people who don't follow baseball that much will finally figure out who Mike Trout is

[TonyTexas 10537]

Meh. I don’t think a cancelled season would be that devastating. With the length of season, rules and alignment, It’s going to be bogus regardless. They will actually lose most of their summer monopoly to the NBA. And they can deflect the blame to the rona. 
 

Now if this leads to a strike or lockout when the contract expires after 2021 then that’s another story. 
 

 

[htown85 159]

I think they will find a way to get it done.  The self-imposed deadline was the end of May, so if things don't look good May 25 then I will start worrying.  Money notwithstanding, the PR nightmare would be overwhelming.  It really comes down to 2 things in my mind:

1) The Sean Doolittles of the PA have to get over the risk of going back and the ethical conundrum of MLB acquiring tests.  If you can't get on board with those things then just sit the year out...I'm sure 99% of players will get over these issues.

2) The owners have to agree to the pro-rated salaries but it will be in exchange for something else (a bigger share of postseason revenue, a smaller draft in 2021, etc).  It seems like the players have screwed themselves so much in the recent history that they are going to be hell bent on the appearance of not getting screwed - so they will die on a fire of no revenue sharing but likely will give up something that will hurt down the road.  The owners need positive momentum going into a 2020 shortened season and the 2021 labor talks.

 

  

[Iceman 2730]

On 5/12/2020 at 11:13 AM, htown85 said:

This is the root of the problem.  I don't know why the players insisted on the no-fan contingency...but the agreement they made in April means nothing now.  

subscribing to the fear?

FTR, in my profession, I'm working absolutely in the public every day and have been throughout the ordeal.  A bunch of folks need to get the fuck over it.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Iceman

[htown85 159]

2 hours ago, Iceman said:

subscribing to the fear?

FTR, in my profession, I'm working absolutely in the public every day and have been throughout the ordeal.  A bunch of folks need to get the fuck over it.

I don't even understand what they were thinking with that.  Were they not wanting to play at all this season unless things were absolutely perfect?  If that's the case, then we definitely won't have a deal.  It's possible that they think the owners were going to come back willing to concede something to get the players to waive their no-fan contingency, but if so that was a ballsy move by the players - and may end up backfiring.

[TonyTexas 10537]

On 5/12/2020 at 11:13 AM, htown85 said:

This is the root of the problem.  I don't know why the players insisted on the no-fan contingency...but the agreement they made in April means nothing now.  

 

10 minutes ago, htown85 said:

I don't even understand what they were thinking with that.  Were they not wanting to play at all this season unless things were absolutely perfect?  If that's the case, then we definitely won't have a deal.  It's possible that they think the owners were going to come back willing to concede something to get the players to waive their no-fan contingency, but if so that was a ballsy move by the players - and may end up backfiring.

I don’t know why you keep saying this. There wasn’t a no-fan contingency. That is the problem. The players are saying a deal is a deal. They agreed to pro- rate their salary based on the number of games played. The owners are saying that the agreement didn’t take into account the possibility of playing no- fan games and the lost revenues from that and want to redo it. 

[SimonBolivar 10961]

11 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

 

I don’t know why you keep saying this. There wasn’t a no-fan contingency. That is the problem. The players are saying a deal is a deal. They agreed to pro- rate their salary based on the number of games played. The owners are saying that the agreement didn’t take into account the possibility of playing no- fan games and the lost revenues from that and want to redo it. 

I don't understand why players have to directly take a pay decrease now because revenues are down. They don't see direct increases when revenues are up in any given year.

 

Sure salaries league wide may go down with decreased revenue over time, but I don't see why they should have to take a hit now if they've agreed to pro-rate their salaries.

[htown85 159]

22 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

 

I don’t know why you keep saying this. There wasn’t a no-fan contingency. That is the problem. The players are saying a deal is a deal. They agreed to pro- rate their salary based on the number of games played. The owners are saying that the agreement didn’t take into account the possibility of playing no- fan games and the lost revenues from that and want to redo it. 

Ah shit you're right.  I could have sworn I read on twitter that the players added that in there.  Ah well, that kind of throws my entire opinion out the window now.  I get where the players are coming from.

[TonyTexas 10537]

13 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

I don't understand why players have to directly take a pay decrease now because revenues are down. They don't see direct increases when revenues are up in any given year.

 

Sure salaries league wide may go down with decreased revenue over time, but I don't see why they should have to take a hit now if they've agreed to pro-rate their salaries.

Ordinarily I’d agree with you but this is a very special circumstance that requires compromise from all parties. The owners would actually love a revenue-sharing situation and will be pushing for one in the next contract. The players are vehemently against it and this will be the major sticking point in the next negotiation.

i damn sure wouldn’t want to be a free agent next year. Salaries are going take a hit 

Edited May 14, 2020 by TonyTexas

[Beau Vine 54489]

33 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

Ordinarily I’d agree with you but this is a very special circumstance that requires compromise from all parties.

Bullshit.  The players already compromised by agreeing to pro-rate salaries without lawsuits.  Owners are supposed to own.  That means they supply the capital and bear the risk -- that's their primary job.  Now they want players to bear the risk with them. 

 

[TonyTexas 10537]

22 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Bullshit.  The players already compromised by agreeing to pro-rate salaries without lawsuits.  Owners are supposed to own.  That means they supply the capital and bear the risk -- that's their primary job.  Now they want players to bear the risk with them. 

 

What about what I said is bullshit?  Do you not agree that these are extraordinary times that require extraordinary measures?  As for your owner take all the risk premise, tell that to the millions of workers who have lost their job as a result of Covid 

Listen, I’m not pro- management here. I’m just pointing out the issues. 

[Beau Vine 54489]

18 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

What about what I said is bullshit?  Do you not agree that these are extraordinary times that require extraordinary measures?

 The players already compromised by agreeing to pro-rate their guaranteed contracts without lawsuits.

[TonyTexas 10537]

19 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

 The players already compromised by agreeing to pro-rate their guaranteed contracts without lawsuits.

And they received service time concessions in return. Both sides have incentives to come to an agreement. The players only receive 4% of their salary if the season is cancelled. The owners need some revenue to offset expenses. Hopefully an agreement can be reached. 
 

[Iceman 2730]

2 hours ago, TonyTexas said:

Ordinarily I’d agree with you but this is a very special circumstance that requires compromise from all parties. The owners would actually love a revenue-sharing situation and will be pushing for one in the next contract. The players are vehemently against it and this will be the major sticking point in the next negotiation.

i damn sure wouldn’t want to be a free agent next year. Salaries are going take a hit 

compromise is so 19th century...

[Helobious 9482]

8 hours ago, Iceman said:

subscribing to the fear?

FTR, in my profession, I'm working absolutely in the public every day and have been throughout the ordeal.  A bunch of folks need to get the fuck over it.

You’re such a badass, I wish I was more like you. Oh wait, I am, because I’ve been working in the public everyday too. Big fucking deal, you’re not special. 
 

The players never agreed to such a contingency, the guy you quoted is just a moron. It’s out of the players hands anyway, many cities/ states wouldn’t allow such large gatherings.

[Iceman 2730]

30 minutes ago, Helobious said:

You’re such a badass, I wish I was more like you. Oh wait, I am, because I’ve been working in the public everyday too. Big fucking deal, you’re not special. 
 

The players never agreed to such a contingency, the guy you quoted is just a moron. It’s out of the players hands anyway, many cities/ states wouldn’t allow such large gatherings.

so scary.

I'm not a badass.   I just show up.  the point is that there are plenty of folks dealing with the real world just fine...

But yeah, playing baseball in a stadium seems so daunting.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Iceman

[htown85 159]

38 minutes ago, Helobious said:

The players never agreed to such a contingency, the guy you quoted is just a moron. 

Agreed

[Biff Tannen 45759]

lol slorch

[Biff Tannen 45759]

5 hours ago, TonyTexas said:

Listen, I’m not pro- management here. I’m just pointing out the issues. 

[Post Oak 20312]

4 years ago today.  Steve Busby with the line of the day.  "Odor is now 2 for 5 today"

 

[Helobious 9482]

That Jays team had more douchebags per capita than any team I can remember. Bautista, Donaldson, Pillar, Stroman. Never get tired of seeing that punch. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

That Jays team had more douchebags per capita than any team I can remember. Bautista, Donaldson, Pillar, Stroman. Never get tired of seeing that punch. 

This is what people fail to realize about that series, now that you’ve opened that door. Bautista just happened to be the icing on the cake for that series. The cake had been baking all series long. WAY before Bautista, Donaldson and stroman were easily the two biggest cunts in that series. Donaldson was chirping and/or complaining about every last thing from the very beginning of that series. Then stroman pitched, and while he’s toned it back since then, he had a reputation for being a bit of a cunt. Then that entire game 5 was just one delay after another because of an argument here or a complaint there. Donaldson and Keone Kela had a really weird exchange while Donaldson was still in the batters box because of something he said after a pitch. Pillar had a lot of really weird fake tough guy moments. One of the weirdest playoff series I’ve ever seen.

The next year they just fucking owned us without saying a word, so I’ll give them that. But that first series against them was just fucking ridiculous from the start. I would say that even if Jose Bautista wasn’t on that team.

[Biff Tannen 45759]

Gotta say, Bautista took that punch like a boss.

[Scraps 13585]

3 hours ago, Helobious said:

That Jays team had more douchebags per capita than any team I can remember. Bautista, Donaldson, Pillar, Stroman. Never get tired of seeing that punch. 

I never get tired of this whole inning 

 

[tx 3 putt 77661]

On 5/12/2020 at 9:22 AM, David Dennison said:

I hope the players don't give an inch.

i agree 

[TonyTexas 10537]

Here are the relevant clauses in the March agreement that are at issue. 
 

 There are no federal, state, city, or local restrictions on mass gatherings or other restrictions that would materially limit the Clubs’ ability to play games in front of spectators, with regular fan access, in each of the 30 Clubs’ home ballparks; provided, however, that the Commissioner will consider the use of appropriate substitute neutral sites where economically feasible.

2. There shall be no relevant restrictions on traveling throughout the United States and Canada.

3. The Commissioner determines, after consultation with recognized medical experts and the Players Association, that it does not pose an unreasonable health and safety risk to players, staff, or spectators to stage games in front of fans in each of the 30 Clubs’ home ballparks; provided that, the Office of the Commissioner and Players Association will discuss in good faith the economic feasibility of playing games in the absence of spectators or at appropriate substitute neutral sites.

 

[ss13 1832]

Good chance a whole lot more comes out about this story. 

Quote

Carl Crawford's home became the site of a double drowning Saturday when a woman and a boy she was watching landed in his pool ... TMZ has learned.

Sources connected to Carl tell us ... the ex-MLB star and current record label chief was hosting a small gathering of 6 people at his north Houston home. The guests included a woman and a young boy -- no more than 5 years old -- in her care for the day.

We're told, at one point while Carl was inside, the boy wandered off and fell into his swimming pool out back. The woman went in after him, but neither were able to exit the pool safely. Our sources say Carl tried reviving them the best he could on the spot, but was unsuccessful.

Paramedics arrived and tried life-saving measures themselves, but to no avail. We're told both have died.

The woman and boy were both unresponsive when taken by ambulance, per KHOU 11 ... which also captured some on-the-scene footage that appears to show Crawford talking to cops. For the record, gatherings of 10 or less are currently allowed in Houston under the stay-at-home order.

 

[HtownHorn 14795]

On 5/14/2020 at 7:24 AM, Iceman said:

subscribing to the fear?

FTR, in my profession, I'm working absolutely in the public every day and have been throughout the ordeal.  A bunch of folks need to get the fuck over it.

There is a bigger chance a MLB player dies from an undisclosed addiction than Covid.

Edited May 17, 2020 by HtownHorn

[DaysOff 7988]

I don't understand why players have to directly take a pay decrease now because revenues are down. They don't see direct increases when revenues are up in any given year.
 
Sure salaries league wide may go down with decreased revenue over time, but I don't see why they should have to take a hit now if they've agreed to pro-rate their salaries.

Because the owners are also qualified to be airline CEOs. When times are bad labor is considered to be your ATM.

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

Don’t blame the players for wanting their full per game pay.

Don’t blame the owners for doing the math and concluding 4% salaries paid to employees and canceled season is a smaller loss than paying 50% of player salaries plus season expenses (and covid expenses). I’m sure current TV contracts prevent one off season deals to help offset some of the lost revenue due to empty stadiums.

Both sides will need to give if there is a deal to be made. I doubt the players are anywhere close to a consensus on the issues where as it’s fairly basic for the owners (+\- good/bad PR)

[Beau Vine 54489]

3 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

I doubt the players are anywhere close to a consensus on the issues where as it’s fairly basic for the owners (+\- good/bad PR)

It would be if that average loss per game was constant across franchises, but it's not.

Franchises that get a higher percentage of their revenues from media will still make money on games with no fans.  

Edited May 17, 2020 by Beau Vine