The Surly Road Cycling Thread

[txhorns 2409]

I've started riding a lot recently, mainly to do a 50 mile race/ride at the end of August.  All of my riding is on roads.  I'm slow as shit though, just did 40 miles on Saturday at 13.6 MPH although the wind was 20 MPH for that.  I've been using flat pedals but have looked into clipless some.  Would clipless pedals help with performance/speed at all or just with comfort and maneuvering?  Do I just need to keep riding to get faster over time or what else helps with speed?

[G650 14244]

8 minutes ago, txhorns said:

I've started riding a lot recently, mainly to do a 50 mile race/ride at the end of August.  All of my riding is on roads.  I'm slow as shit though, just did 40 miles on Saturday at 13.6 MPH although the wind was 20 MPH for that.  I've been using flat pedals but have looked into clipless some.  Would clipless pedals help with performance/speed at all or just with comfort and maneuvering?  Do I just need to keep riding to get faster over time or what else helps with speed?

 

Well, first and foremost you absolutely need to keep riding to get faster.

 

Now, with that out of the way, generally clipless pedals give you a more elegant way to improve pedaling efficiency than toe clips. For them to work you need to work on your pedaling motion with them to make sure you are hitting all quadrants of the stroke.

 

As far other things that help with speed, man that is a life long pursuit. We would have to know where you are at more specifically on weight, training structure, equipment, etc...

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31440]

8 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

Well, first and foremost you absolutely need to keep riding to get faster.

 

Now, with that out of the way, generally clipless pedals give you a more elegant way to improve pedaling efficiency than toe clips. For them to work you need to work on your pedaling motion with them to make sure you are hitting all quadrants of the stroke.

 

As far other things that help with speed, man that is a life long pursuit. We would have to know where you are at more specifically on weight, training structure, equipment, etc...

 

 

I've read the debates between flats and clips in the MTB context, but never really considered actual toe clips vs. clipless.

[G650 14244]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

I've read the debates between flats and clips in the MTB context, but never really considered actual toe clips vs. clipless.

Yeah it's a really polemical debate and I'm honestly loathe to even weigh in. I would generally say something along the lines of toe clips/clipless are obviously way more efficient than plain flats, but not super different from each other. The clipless is way more user friendly than toe clips though.

[52-80 19147]

Theres also a huge aesthetic and psychological component to clipless. If youre wearing trousers, its really silly to be in Sidis. If your wearing tights, its also silly to be in your beat up adidas sambas. 
 

a pair of road shoes clipped in will feel like they disappear.  Toe cages are fine if youre very casually riding but theyre a bit annoying to have to retighten all the time. 
 

clipless i find are more important in mtb when you cant afford to lose engagement in technical manouvers, but on the road if you ride 30mi or longer just buy clipless also

[TwiceHorn 31440]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

its also silly to be in your beat up adidas sambas. 

https://www.adidas.com/us/the-velosamba-cycling-shoes/FW4459.html

If I were a roadie, or clipped in on MTB, I'd be all over those.

Edited August 9, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[midtown 3345]

Theres also a huge aesthetic and psychological component to clipless. If youre wearing trousers, its really silly to be in Sidis. If your wearing tights, its also silly to be in your beat up adidas sambas. 
 
a pair of road shoes clipped in will feel like they disappear.  Toe cages are fine if youre very casually riding but theyre a bit annoying to have to retighten all the time. 
 
clipless i find are more important in mtb when you cant afford to lose engagement in technical manouvers, but on the road if you ride 30mi or longer just buy clipless also

I feel like this is actually opposite. I've been riding clipless road for 40 years. And flats on mtb BMX for the same. When you think about the efficiency of the road especially when considering the cadence it seems like clipless is even more important on road.

[52-80 19147]

1 minute ago, midtown said:

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

Theres also a huge aesthetic and psychological component to clipless. If youre wearing trousers, its really silly to be in Sidis. If your wearing tights, its also silly to be in your beat up adidas sambas. 
 
a pair of road shoes clipped in will feel like they disappear.  Toe cages are fine if youre very casually riding but theyre a bit annoying to have to retighten all the time. 
 
clipless i find are more important in mtb when you cant afford to lose engagement in technical manouvers, but on the road if you ride 30mi or longer just buy clipless also

I feel like this is actually opposite. I've been riding clipless road for 40 years. And flats on mtb BMX for the same. When you think about the efficiency of the road especially when considering the cadence it seems like clipless is even more important on road.

On technical mtb when youre negotiating up and down and around obstacles you might alternate between free wheeling and pedaling, and when you pedal you want torque engagement *now*, especially since this happens at lower speeds with less momentum. 
 

 

[TwiceHorn 31440]

3 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

On technical mtb when youre negotiating up and down and around obstacles you might alternate between free wheeling and pedaling, and when you pedal you want torque engagement *now*, especially since this happens at lower speeds with less momentum. 
 

 

Adidas Five Ten and similar shoes and steel pegged/spiked pedals have changed the flat game forever.  Probably a pretty good alternative for duffer roadies, too.

Edited August 9, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[G650 14244]

Idk. It's a lot easier to bunny hop when clipped in.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

33 minutes ago, G650 said:

Idk. It's a lot easier to bunny hop when clipped in.

A purist would argue that's not a real bunny hop.

 

 

But, I'll definitely grant you that there are some rear wheel maneuvers, bunny-hop related, but probably infinitely more useful on a trail, that are easier clipped in and so much so that mortals can't execute them without clips.

Edited August 10, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[midtown 3345]

Idk. It's a lot easier to bunny hop when clipped in.

It's not a big deal if you've been doing them for 40 years

[midtown 3345]

Sorry to derail. As far as road clipless are the only way to go. Realize with most clipless pedals you can change the tension and work up as you get used to clipping and unclipipping.

[G650 14244]

8 hours ago, midtown said:

9 hours ago, G650 said:

Idk. It's a lot easier to bunny hop when clipped in.

It's not a big deal if you've been doing them for 40 years

I have. I'm from the original mountain bike generation

[CycleTex87 2967]

Clipless here, both road and mountain.  I have a pair of Shimano sandals for the clipless MTB pedals, which are fun to wear just tooling around to the coffee shop or whatever.  I installed my first set of Look clipless pedals on my road bike in 1988.

Edited August 12, 2021 by CycleTex87

[Your Mom 4805]

^^ Perfectly fine for cruising the neighborhood, but it brings up the other advantage of clipless pedals: A stiff, rigid sole. Less flexing of the foot means more energy to the pedal stroke. 

I went through a phase riding flats, after years of riding clipless, on a mountain bike when I was coming back from surgery and timid on technical stuff. The idea of an easy bailout was attractive.  I even talked myself into thinking I was just as efficient with the flats, or nearly so.  When I went back to clipless again it was obvious I’d been fooling myself. First few rides back in clipless felt like I was flying. It’s a significant improvement in efficiency for all types of riding except maybe an all-out short sprint. Maybe I notice it more after a couple decades of road riding with a fairly smooth stroke than a pedal masher would. You’ll only get the benefits if you can pull across the bottom and not mash.  

[BearSchlong 8083]

Posted on a different thread but no answers.

I've got a Specialized Crosstrail but really want to upgrade to this -

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/sirrus-6-0/p/174697?color=279694-174697&searchText=90920-1101

What other bikes should I consider?

What are the best bike stores in Houston?

Edit: Just compared the weight difference, that Sirrus is 10lbs lighter than the Crosstrail. Insert torbushwow.gif

Edited August 12, 2021 by BearSchlong

[TwiceHorn 31440]

3 minutes ago, BearSchlong said:

Posted on a different thread but no answers.

I've got a Specialized Crosstrail but really want to upgrade to this -

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/sirrus-6-0/p/174697?color=279694-174697&searchText=90920-1101

What other bikes should I consider?

What are the best bike stores in Houston?

 

Curious as to why?

Hybrids are great duffer bikes to just ride around on, maybe lay down some miles.

Putting a carbon frame on a hybrid seems very counterintuitive, as does a lot of expensive, lightweight components.

Seems to me you might want to commit to a more dedicated road or gravel bike.

[midtown 3345]

For any noobs. Do not buy look pedals they are the worst. They call them look because you have to look down to clip. Speedplay are 100x better

[Your Mom 4805]

45 minutes ago, midtown said:

For any noobs. Do not buy look pedals they are the worst. They call them look because you have to look down to clip. Speedplay are 100x better

This. They tell you the pedal is rear-weighted so it’s always oriented properly for entry but that only works on the first foot and if you gently ease that first half pedal stroke for the second foot entry. If you put down any reasonable force on the first half stroke the second pedal is spinning wildly and impossible to lock into. It makes a system that’s nearly impossible to get off a green light quickly. And the bottom half of a Look is sloped and slick and absolutely impossible to put your weight on even for a second. 

[G650 14244]

You will pry my Keo pedals from my cold dead clipped in feet.

[BearSchlong 8083]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Curious as to why?

Hybrids are great duffer bikes to just ride around on, maybe lay down some miles.

Putting a carbon frame on a hybrid seems very counterintuitive, as does a lot of expensive, lightweight components.

Seems to me you might want to commit to a more dedicated road or gravel bike.

Not a bad thought.  Originally just bought a pair of bikes for the wife and I to ride around for fitness, 10-15 mile rides, mostly on pavement.  I really like the somewhat relaxed frame geometry and flat bars and was just looking for the obvious upgrade path for my style of riding, with upgraded frame and components.

In the 6 weeks since I've had the upgrade bug Specialized raised the price on that model by $200.

current (discontinued) bike for comparison - https://bit.ly/3yNbj3O

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by BearSchlong

[CycleTex87 2967]

Speedplay x 1000. I’ve been riding them 8-10 years and would ride anything else at this point. 

[Goofyboy 3269]

You will pry my Keo pedals from my cold dead clipped in feet.

Same.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

On 8/12/2021 at 3:13 PM, BearSchlong said:

Not a bad thought.  Originally just bought a pair of bikes for the wife and I to ride around for fitness, 10-15 mile rides, mostly on pavement.  I really like the somewhat relaxed frame geometry and flat bars and was just looking for the obvious upgrade path for my style of riding, with upgraded frame and components.

In the 6 weeks since I've had the upgrade bug Specialized raised the price on that model by $200.

current (discontinued) bike for comparison - https://bit.ly/3yNbj3O

 

It's just that the whole idea of lighter bikes and components is to get more (speed, distance, both) out of your effort.  There can be other benefits,too, such as comfort and handling, better shifting and braking, that come from more expensive bikes.  But you can upgrade components on your current bike and probably achieve the mechanical things.

But if your main goal is to burn calories and build a little strength, you don't need any of that.

Like all men's hobbies, biking tends to turn into an arms race.  I kind of like to dissuade that, if I can.

[destroya 374]

17 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's just that the whole idea of lighter bikes and components is to get more (speed, distance, both) out of your effort.  There can be other benefits,too, such as comfort and handling, better shifting and braking, that come from more expensive bikes.  But you can upgrade components on your current bike and probably achieve the mechanical things.

But if your main goal is to burn calories and build a little strength, you don't need any of that.

Like all men's hobbies, biking tends to turn into an arms race.  I kind of like to dissuade that, if I can.

Or maybe his main goal is to have fun, and it’s more fun to ride a bike that is lighter, faster and rides better. 

[BearSchlong 8083]

Este.

[destroya 374]

Trek makes a similarly spec’ed carbon hybrid that’s $800 cheaper. Shimano 105, hydraulic disc brakes, sealed bearings. 
 

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/hybrid-bikes/fitness-bikes/fx/fx-sport-6/p/28843/?colorCode=black

[CycleTex87 2967]

Does Trek make good bikes?

[52-80 19147]

Trek does not "make" a bike so much as they subcontract construction of a frame, and then bolt common parts onto it.  They're as good or bad as any other bike for the same price.

In the road bike world, it is essentially a rigid diamond(-ish) shaped frame, 2 hoops, and a handlebar.  At its essence it is super simple and ultra commoditized.

In the mountain bike world, there is a lot more variance and diversity in the products.  Due to technicality of the riding terrain, bikes will have suspension, so there is all sorts of variation in design in the geometries and angles and pivot points and suspension travel and so on.  While very far away, it is closer to a car in terms of how one can perform differently than another.  Road bikes are like ...tennis shoes.  There's different tennis shoes, but in the end they're just a fucking tennis shoe.

[G650 14244]

7 hours ago, CycleTex87 said:

Does Trek make good bikes?

Lol. The halcyon days of roadbikereview.com

[CycleTex87 2967]

36 minutes ago, G650 said:

Lol. The halcyon days of roadbikereview.com

This

[TwiceHorn 31440]

I have an insane urge to buy a fixie.

[52-80 19147]

new bike from Ribble.  most radically is concept of aero handlebar.  no, not just flat shaped "aero" bar, or combined bar-stem, but complete shaping of the bar to affect aero flow downstream to the rider.

tops are bulbous to spread air over riders legs, also angled out to straighten the wrist

 

particularly the drops are shrouded to smoothen air attachment to the riders hands and forearms

 

they do this by creating an alternate attachment point for the levers, whereas traditional bar designed is tubular for levers to clamp into

they also apply texture on the drops so it should not require wrapping.

 

overall ugly borg looking thing, but atleast its thinking out of the box

 

 

 

[52-80 19147]

On 8/17/2021 at 4:00 PM, TwiceHorn said:

I have an insane urge to buy a fixie.

get one. theyre the best.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

Just now, 52-80 said:

get one. theyre the best.

I think I am gonna.  I need something to ride when the trails are wet and I don't really like riding my MTB on the street (I can feel my tires grinding away), and, generally, road riding bores me, especially for like hour-long fitness rides.  Learning to ride fixed gear will add some excitement into the mix although I feel it's likely I go with the freewheel, long-term (assuming I get something with a flip/flop).  Even single-speeding will probably be sufficiently different to make things interesting.

I was unaware that there are still a number of "fixie" companies this many years after the hipster fad.  Looks like some are just a step or two above big-box bikes, if that, but that's probably ok for this purpose, and, it has kept the price down on some of the nicer ones.

[52-80 19147]

7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think I am gonna.  I need something to ride when the trails are wet and I don't really like riding my MTB on the street (I can feel my tires grinding away), and, generally, road riding bores me, especially for like hour-long fitness rides.  Learning to ride fixed gear will add some excitement into the mix although I feel it's likely I go with the freewheel, long-term (assuming I get something with a flip/flop).  Even single-speeding will probably be sufficiently different to make things interesting.

I was unaware that there are still a number of "fixie" companies this many years after the hipster fad.  Looks like some are just a step or two above big-box bikes, if that, but that's probably ok for this purpose, and, it has kept the price down on some of the nicer ones.

pretty good selection at BD, for a beater ride around

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/trackbikes.htm

 

[TwiceHorn 31440]

34 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

pretty good selection at BD, for a beater ride around

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/trackbikes.htm

 

Yes, high on my list.  For once, the BD bikes compare extremely favorably to what else is out there.  Unfortunately all sold out.  And, a lot of them are freewheel only.  I'd really like to find a flip flop.

I've been having some derailleur problems on my MTB that are focused on the very low gears and I realize that my high-speed pedaling could probably use some work as I spend more time farting around in very low gears while fucking with my der.

[52-80 19147]

fucking dealer gave me surprise.  already shipped off my bike, months early.  not even at home to take the delivery.... and didnt get the chance to change order from alloy to carbon wheels, so will have to do post-purchase swap. 

[TwiceHorn 31440]

Welp, I wound up getting a State Bicycle flip-flop fixie.  Cheap.  There are some cheaper, but I was already afraid of how shitty the State would be.  But it's not bad.  The components are no-name, but seem pretty reasonable and a step up from big-box bikes.  Everything works as it should and it runs almost completely silent.  Mild steel frame, which is actually kind of nice as it's a pretty taut geometry.  Not light for a fixie, but lighter than an mtb, for sure.

I am discovering that 44/16 gearing is a bit tough, even in Dallas, Texas.  Haven't had the guts to fixie it yet.  I was expecting a "spinout" riding experience, instead I'm mashing like a mofo.  Made me sore as hell the first day and I didn't even ride hard and I've been riding ~30 miles a week on the trails, so that was unexpected.

Single-speed does add a dimension to just tooling around the hood and paved trails, you wind up having to manage momentum like on the trails.  And the gearing would seem to make me stronger for the trails.  And, it does kind of focus you on your pedaling form and cadence, because there is no relief.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[G650 14244]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:04 AM, TwiceHorn said:

Welp, I wound up getting a State Bicycle flip-flop fixie.  Cheap.  There are some cheaper, but I was already afraid of how shitty the State would be.  But it's not bad.  The components are no-name, but seem pretty reasonable and a step up from big-box bikes.  Everything works as it should and it runs almost completely silent.  Mild steel frame, which is actually kind of nice as it's a pretty taut geometry.  Not light for a fixie, but lighter than an mtb, for sure.

I am discovering that 44/16 gearing is a bit tough, even in Dallas, Texas.  Haven't had the guts to fixie it yet.  I was expecting a "spinout" riding experience, instead I'm mashing like a mofo.  Made me sore as hell the first day and I didn't even ride hard and I've been riding ~30 miles a week on the trails, so that was unexpected.

Single-speed does add a dimension to just tooling around the hood and paved trails, you wind up having to manage momentum like on the trails.  And the gearing would seem to make me stronger for the trails.  And, it does kind of focus you on your pedaling form and cadence, because there is no relief.

 

Yeah but how much flannel and moustache wax did you buy.

[CycleTex87 2967]

So @TwiceHorn freewheel or no?

Edited August 29, 2021 by CycleTex87

[TwiceHorn 31440]

46 minutes ago, CycleTex87 said:

So @TwiceHorn freewheel or no?

Yeah, I haven't flipped it to fixed yet.  Figured I'd get used to its geo before trying out fixed.  It has F and R brakes, so stopping isn't really an issue in terms of learning to skid or whatever, but I'm relatively certain I'm going to do something stupid like attack position pedals level or something.  I have been trying not to coast much when I ride it in preparation.

[52-80 19147]

You need to put it on fixed to learn the track dismount

[G650 14244]

Time to take of the training wheels

[TwiceHorn 31440]

2 hours ago, G650 said:

Time to take of the training wheels

The wheel has been flipped.  HIpsterness engaged.

First (very short) fixed gear ride complete.  TwiceHorn 1 Bike 0.  Bike put up a valiant effort, though.  Sofaking weird.

Edited August 30, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[52-80 19147]

if you learn how to track stand within the next 48 hours, you are required to go back to single-speed.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

Fixie ride 2 in the books.  About 5 miles this time, still residential streets with little traffic.  No big fuckups.  Got a lot smoother at engine braking to a sloppy trackstand at a stop.  Hit a decent sized pothole bump thing and got some alarming pedal feedback.  It's settling in that curbs and bumps and things that require pedal clearance are kind of a no-go.  I can't do my MTB turns either.  Also realized that I do a fair amount of getting out of the saddle that is a bit harder to do when you have to keep pedaling.  Simple ball/ass adjustments become more complicated.

Haven't tried a skid stop yet, partly because without toeclips or similar.  I did get these Odyssey Twisted BMX pedals that apparently are pretty well known and kind of similar to Race Face Chesters but with plastic pegs instead of steel.  I'm pretty impressed with their grip with just sneakers.

A lot less weird today.  I can see how fixie riding can force improvement to pedaling form.  But I think it might force some strange/bad habits for the trails or at least cause some muscle memory issues.

[midtown 3345]

18 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

The wheel has been flipped.  HIpsterness engaged.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

5 hours ago, midtown said:

That is a nice thing about fixies. Most of the weirdness is fixated on the rear wheel. Coming from years of mtb, I feel like I could fly over the bars at any moment as unslack as this is. Rim brakes minimize that feeling. 

 

But I am pretty sure that there are some failure modes and penalties that I have yet to discover.