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Chemical Weapons Attack in Syria

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105275

Posted
Posted
Nice try, but nobody who fell for that bullshit is going to be able to live that down.  Lulz at you telling other people to wake up. 

This. He demonstrated what he believes reliable sources and sufficient proof is: Cernovich and Pizzagate batshittery. It’s not so much about what you doubt, it’s about what you’ll believe. We’ve seen your idea of reliable sources and sufficient proof. So, you’ll understand if we don’t look to you - ever - as an authority on the subject.
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cactusflinthead

cactusflinthead 27601

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Posted (edited)

oh let's have a little throwback shall we?

 
 
n2RE9OD2_bigger.jpgdriftglass‏ @Mr_Electrico
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Various Quotes From Republicans About Bill Clinton's Balkan Policy... "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." --Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

11:04 PM - 13 Apr 2018
 
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      "We didn’t have to get into Kosovo. Once we stumbled into it, we had to win it. This administration has conducted a feckless photo-op foreign policy for which we will pay a very heavy price in American blood and treasure." -- John McCain (R-AZ)

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      "I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. -- Rep Tom Delay

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      A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. -- Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

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      There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today -- Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

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      "If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy." --Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush

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      "I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area." --Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

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      "American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy." --Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

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      "[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. -- Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)

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      And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy." --Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)

It's like they're on a team. 

Edited by cactusflinthead
psychobilly
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VRHorn

VRHorn 718

Posted
Posted

For people who claim to not be trolls, there sure are a lot of motherfuckers trying to destabilize various parts of the country.

if Assad ordered and carried out gas attacks (he did) the actions tonight were justified, and troubling. The destabilizers will need to go back to Pizza Hut.

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VRHorn

VRHorn 718

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, maninblack said:


Show me the evidence. I'll listen.

So, was the attack last year fake? Has he ever gassed his people? The increasing levels of conspiracy needed to white knight fucking Assad is just weird. Assad is a terrible dude and has been doing terrible shit for years. It’s not even remotely a stretch to drawn a line to the event that triggered this.

The one person who pushes this narrative - fucking Putin. What is wrong with you?

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, VRHorn said:

So, was the attack last year fake? Has he ever gassed his people? The increasing levels of conspiracy needed to white knight fucking Assad is just weird. Assad is a terrible dude and has been doing terrible shit for years. It’s not even remotely a stretch to drawn a line to the event that triggered this.

The one person who pushes this narrative - fucking Putin. What is wrong with you?

Here's what I said in post 212

 

"I don't know who did it. There was no investigation. That said logic and history tell me it probably wasn't who we're being told it was. 

Better question is even if Assad did do it is it worth starting a war over? Also, being a nation of laws as we pretend to be why is The President starting a war unilaterally without a vote from Congress who has that authority under the Constitution?"

 

You're going to have to forgive me if I don't just take what Donald Trump and his administration say at face value. Especially when they're killing people in a foreign country that hasn't attacked the US.

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

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Posted

Again you fail to answer the question and choose instead to attack me. I'm not arguing that Assad isn't a bad actor but if you're going to argue he needs to die at the hands of the United States military I'd like to hear the rationale. Is that unreasonable?

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Pods

Pods 7586

Posted
Posted

If the chemical attack was air dropped by barrel bombs of chlorine + sarin as reported by the media, that has to be Assad. No one else has the tech and local air supremacy that would be required to drop these bombs. 

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VRHorn

VRHorn 718

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Posted

It’s pretty remarkable the gymnastics happening here. MIB has been posting bullshit, carrying water for Trump, etc. for months and now he’s pissing on Trump for attacking Assad.

One last time - Trump is human garbage and is likely trying to wag the dog. Assad is human garbage and deserves to die. I don’t give anyone credit in this situation, but all you do is hang onto conspiracies -why?

I know we all thought we figured out the Illuminati when we were 18, but most of us grew up.

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

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Posted
It’s pretty remarkable the gymnastics happening here. MIB has been posting bullshit, carrying water for Trump, etc. for months and now he’s pissing on Trump for attacking Assad.
One last time - Trump is human garbage and is likely trying to wag the dog. Assad is human garbage and deserves to die. I don’t give anyone credit in this situation, but all you do is hang onto conspiracies -why?
I know we all thought we figured out the Illuminati when we were 18, but most of us grew up.

You're definition of carrying water is funny.
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13055

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Posted
4 minutes ago, maninblack said:

Again you fail to answer the question and choose instead to attack me. I'm not arguing that Assad isn't a bad actor but if you're going to argue he needs to die at the hands of the United States military I'd like to hear the rationale. Is that unreasonable?

I’d like to hear rationale for why you’re white knighting a war criminal who has murdered and tortured civilians. 

People have presented plenty of arguments for why the United States military should be involved. You ignore it because you’re too busy carrying water for Assad and Putin.

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

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Posted
If the chemical attack was air dropped by barrel bombs of chlorine + sarin as reported by the media, that has to be Assad. No one else has the tech and local air supremacy that would be required to drop these bombs. 

So if you do believe it was Assad, and it could have been, is it worth killing more people in Syria and potentially leading us into a larger war in your mind?
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Pods

Pods 7586

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Posted

Yes, absolutely. Trump announced we were going to withdraw and Assad did this as a slap in our face on the way out. Dumbass should have waited a bit. I don't think he thought we'd react, but we did and we should. The attack was a direct challenge to the United States when it already looked like we were too weak to stay and guarantee whatever can be salvaged from this shitshow. If we continued to run after that direct challenge, it would have been an epic disaster for us in prestige amongst the Middle East and a huge PR boost for our enemies.  

Whether we should have invaded Syria is moot at this point, because we are there. At this point, we need to stay and finish ISIS off. We should stay and guarantee a separated Kurdish region, but we won't. 

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

Posted
Posted
I’d like to hear rationale for why you’re white knighting a war criminal who has murdered and tortured civilians. 

People have presented plenty of arguments for why the United States military should be involved. You ignore it because you’re too busy carrying water for Assad and Putin.

I'm not white knighting Assad and I have not ignored the arguments. I've rejected them. The logic behind the given story makes no sense. But hey maybe he's not a logical actor and just when he's about to defeat ISIS he uses chemical weapons roughly 5-10 miles away from the capital knowing that'll likely provoke a response. So the argument for striking Assad has boiled down to he used chemical weapons that harmed and killed civilians.

 

My question back is if you believe that, do you believe the US should kill more Syrians by launching an offensive even though we were not attacked and no evidence has been provided up to this point?

 

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

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Posted
Yes, absolutely. Trump announced we were going to withdraw and Assad did this as a slap in our face on the way out. Dumbass should have waited a bit. I don't think he thought we'd react, but we did and we should. The attack was a direct challenge to the United States when it already looked like we were too weak to stay and guarantee whatever can be salvaged from this shitshow. If we continued to run after that direct challenge, it would have been an epic disaster for us in prestige amongst the Middle East and a huge PR boost for our enemies.  
Whether we should have invaded Syria is moot at this point, because we are there. At this point, we need to stay and finish ISIS off. We should stay and guarantee a separated Kurdish region, but we won't. 

Ok and I respectfully disagree
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VRHorn

VRHorn 718

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Posted
1 minute ago, maninblack said:


My question back is if you believe that do you believe the US should kill more Syrians by launching an offensive eventhough we were not attacked and no evidence has been provided up to this point?

Nope, we should not, in a vacuum. The issue is that Assad has no compunction about killing every Syrian he can. As with everything else in the ME, there are no right answers. That said, the moral argument for attacking Assad is pretty solid.

the whole “no evidence” bit is something you haven’t fully answered. Either Assad has a history of gassing his people or he doesn’t- the preponderance of the evidence is that he did.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13055

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, maninblack said:


I'm not white knighting Assad and I have not ignored the arguments. I've rejected them. The logic behind the given story makes no sense. But hey maybe he's not a logical actor and just when he's about to defeat ISIS he uses chemical weapons roughly 5-10 miles away from the capital knowing that'll likely provoke a response. So the argument for striking Assad has boiled down to he used chemical weapons that harmed and killed civilians.

My question back is if you believe that do you believe the US should kill more Syrians by launching an offensive eventhough we were not attacked and no evidence has been provided up to this point?

You can disagree with whether or not we should be involved. That question has been discussed and answered pretty well by Pods. 

Even if your conspiracy theory is right, which I’m glad to see you trust Russian media but not the US, this isn’t he first time. Assad has committed multiple war crimes. You literally asked why Assad deserved to die. That’s white knighting. He deserves to die for numerous other war crimes he has committed. 

And yea, maybe the guy murdering children isn’t a logical actor.

Edited by hobbes2702
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maninblack

maninblack 7974

Posted
Posted
Nope, we should not, in a vacuum. The issue is that Assad has no compunction about killing every Syrian he can. As with everything else in the ME, there are no right answers. That said, the moral argument for attacking Assad is pretty solid.
the whole “no evidence” bit is something you haven’t fully answered. Either Assad has a history of gassing his people or he doesn’t- the preponderance of the evidence is that he did.

If he kills every Syrian then there won't be any more Syrians to rule. He has to keep a few around.

Kidding aside when you want to be in the business of being the moral police then the list long and the death toll will be high. Personally, I don't want to be in that business and the US has plenty of moral turpitude that can be discussed as well.
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maninblack

maninblack 7974

Posted
Posted
You can disagree with whether or not we should be involved. That question has been discussed and answered pretty well by Pods. 
Even if your conspiracy theory is right, which I’m glad to see you trust Russian media but not the US, this isn’t he first time. Assad has committed multiple war crimes. You literally asked why Assad deserved to die. That’s white knighting. He deserves to die for numerous other war crimes he has committed. 
And yea, maybe the guy murdering children isn’t a logical actor.

Do you believe we should have invaded Iraq?
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13055

Posted
Posted (edited)

Never once did I advocate invading Iraq or Syria. I simply said Pods answered that discussion well. I disagree with some of his opinions. I do think however we needed to respond to what has happened.

Do you believe Assad deserves to die?

Edited by hobbes2702
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VRHorn

VRHorn 718

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, maninblack said:


If he kills every Syrian then there won't be any more Syrians to rule. He has to keep a few around.

Kidding aside when you want to be in the business of being the moral police then the list long and the death toll will be high. Personally, I don't want to be in that business and the US has plenty of moral turpitude that can be discussed as well.

Again, I was pretty onboard with this until the “what, we’re so innocent” bit. If you are a true isolationist, at least it’s an ethos, but you have to own the results. The Brits and the Frogs signed up for this, you are aligning yourself with Putin here.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13055

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, VRHorn said:

Nope, we should not, in a vacuum. The issue is that Assad has no compunction about killing every Syrian he can. As with everything else in the ME, there are no right answers. That said, the moral argument for attacking Assad is pretty solid.

the whole “no evidence” bit is something you haven’t fully answered. Either Assad has a history of gassing his people or he doesn’t- the preponderance of the evidence is that he did.

Still unanswered

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

Posted
Posted
Never once did I advocate invading Iraq or Syria.
Do you believe Assad deserves to die?

Yeah probably. I'm under no illusion that he's some awesome guy.

The reason I asked you that question is Saddam did all the things you accuse Assad of and yes he deserved to die for his crimes against humanity. That said invading Iraq, even if it had been originally sold on the pretense he was a bad guy, led to more loss of human life and a still destabilized country.

If you want to argue that folks who commit crimes against humanity deserve to die I'm down with that. Typically, a lot of people have to die to make that happen though and we have a lot of stink on us too.
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13055

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, maninblack said:


Yeah probably. I'm under no illusion that he's some awesome guy.

The reason I asked you that question is Saddam did all the things you accuse Assad of and yes he deserved to die for his crimes against humanity. That said invading Iraq, even if it had been originally sold on the pretense he was a bad guy, led to more loss of human life and a still destabilized country.

If you want to argue that folks who commit crimes against humanity deserve to die I'm down with that. Typically, a lot of people have to die to make that happen though and we have a lot of stink on us too.

“Why does Assad deserve to die”

 

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

Posted
Posted
Again, I was pretty onboard with this until the “what, we’re so innocent” bit. If you are a true isolationist, at least it’s an ethos, but you have to own the results. The Brits and the Frogs signed up for this, you are aligning yourself with Putin here.

By saying we shouldn't bomb Syria I'm aligning with Putin is like saying I'm siding with North Korea because we shouldn't bomb them either.
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13055

Posted
Posted
Just now, maninblack said:


By saying we shouldn't bomb Syria I'm aligning with Putin is like saying I'm siding with North Korea because we shouldn't bomb them either.

No. By believing the story that Russian state media is peddling over the entire Western world you’re aligning with Putin. 

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VRHorn

VRHorn 718

Posted
Posted
Just now, maninblack said:


By saying we shouldn't bomb Syria I'm aligning with Putin is like saying I'm siding with North Korea because we shouldn't bomb them either.

Sure, if the norks were getting bombed by Britain and France and if the Norks attacked Japan or the South. They would never waste bombs on other norks.

Assad is an active war criminal and Kim is a passive war criminal (like us, am I right?)

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

Posted
Posted

Anyone care what the Constitution has to say about our airstrikes tonight? The War Powers Act. Oh well, Hamilton is a hero because of a damn musical, which I suppose is appropriate. The separation of powers, a cornerstone of our Constitution, is crumbling. I was hoping Trump would resurrect the Legislative Branch as a place where laws are debated and passed and the body that decides when war starts. If there was a clear and present danger - what is required for the President to launch a military attack - it's time to tell the citizens of this nation the nature of the clear and present danger. And then Congress needs to act. The President is an emergency room. Congress determines whether we are at war and the scope of our involvement. It's time for Congress to get in the game. 

As the son of a disabled vet (WWII, Korea, and Vietnam), I only saw war as the proud son of Dad who still had an intellect, but no real ability to use his body. It changed me for the better. I never saw him wear a uniform. I saw them, but I didn't know what any of the decorations were. The ribbons were a mix of Army Air Corps and then USAF. He didn't wear a uniform and he spent most of his adult life overseas. He didn't talk about his work for the military. We talked about football, women, and political theory in practice. Perhaps that is what he talked about at work. He survived the great depression in the dust bowl - with his Dad working for Phillips. He met my Mom in Sweetwater and then volunteered for the Army and was sent to the CBI theater. After WWII, he shuffled around the world until Korea and that horrible war. Vietnam was a meat grinder.

War should never be taken lightly. I hope the President's message to Russia and Iran makes cooler heads prevail, but the switch to Bolton from McMaster signaled a change in direction. McMaster understands how wars can be lost. Hopefully the Pentagon learned the lessons taught by McMaster and will give the President good advice on the dangers of entering a war where there are no good guys. Syria is a circular firing squad.  

To those who served, thank you. To those with sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, family, and friends in harm's way around the world -  they are admired (and so are you). To everyone in harm's way, take care of those around you. And let us know what you need to protect yourself to accomplish your mission quickly without unnecessary bloodshed.

Anyone know what the Mission is?

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13055

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, maninblack said:


No. By believing the story that Iraq state media was peddling over the entire Western world you were aligning with Saddam.

Like how that works

Plenty worldwide and in the West disagreed with the invasion of Iraq. In fact this thing called the UN disagreed with it. That’s not remotely similar to believing a conspiracy being pushed by the kremlin and being refuted by the western world.

Keep dodging though. And maybe I missed it, did Assad ever use chemicals weapons or commit war crimes? 

Edited by hobbes2702
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maninblack

maninblack 7974

Posted
Posted
Anyone care what the Constitution has to say about our airstrikes tonight? The War Powers Act. Oh well, Hamilton is a hero because of a damn musical, which I suppose is appropriate. The separation of powers, a cornerstone of our Constitution, is crumbling. I was hoping Trump would resurrect the Legislative Branch as a place where laws are debated and passed and the body that decides when war starts. If there was a clear and present danger - what is required for the President to launch a military attack - it's time to tell the citizens of this nation the nature of the clear and present danger. And then Congress needs to act. The President is an emergency room. Congress determines whether we are at war and the scope of our involvement. It's time for Congress to get in the game. 
As the son of a disabled vet (WWII, Korea, and Vietnam), I only saw war as the proud son of Dad who still had an intellect, but no real ability to use his body. It changed me for the better. I never saw him wear a uniform. I saw them, but I didn't know what any of the decorations were. The ribbons were a mix of Army Air Corps and then USAF. He didn't wear a uniform and he spent most of his adult life overseas. He didn't talk about his work for the military. We talked about football, women, and political theory in practice. Perhaps that is what he talked about at work. He survived the great depression in the dust bowl - with his Dad working for Phillips. He met my Mom in Sweetwater and then volunteered for the Army and was sent to the CBI theater. After WWII, he shuffled around the world until Korea and that horrible war. Vietnam was a meat grinder.
War should never be taken lightly. I hope the President's message to Russia and Iran makes cooler heads prevail, but the switch to Bolton from McMaster signaled a change in direction. McMaster understands how wars can be lost. Hopefully the Pentagon learned the lessons taught by McMaster and will give the President good advice on the dangers of entering a war where there are no good guys. Syria is a circular firing squad.  
To those who served, thank you. To those with sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, family, and friends in harm's way around the world -  they are admired (and so are you). To everyone in harm's way, take care of those around you. And let us know what you need to protect yourself to accomplish your mission quickly without unnecessary bloodshed.
Anyone know what the Mission is?

Letter in 2013 to Obama and 2018 to Trump

2013 signers: 119 Rs, 21 Ds
2018 signers: 15 Rs, 73 Ds

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6c727768dfb976970c5f26e0ce96c22a.jpg
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formermav43

formermav43 4606

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Posted

maninblack has been consistently against all foreign intervention like this for years. His libertarianism is rooted in the non-aggression principle and it’s not negotiable.

That may be misguided in itself or his take on some things might veer too much into the conspiracy theorists camp for some. Fine. Debate that. But to act like he’s a Russian shill is pretty disingenuous given his pretty vocal history.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9939

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Posted

Amen.

MIB is asking the questions that need answers.

Who and what replaces Assad? What's the exit strategy? How many souls perish? Where does the cancer of war spread if we destabilize Syria?

This is Saddam/Q'daffy all over again. How did they end?

I hope there is a special place in hell for murderous rulers. MIB has always been a Constitutionalist on the separation of power and who can declare war. Cut the McCarthy tactics. They're ugly and add nothing to what happens next. 

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

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Posted
Plenty worldwide and in the West disagreed with the invasion of Iraq. In fact this thing called the UN disagreed with it. That’s not remotely similar to believing a conspiracy being pushed by the kremlin and being refuted by the western world.

Keep dodging though. And maybe I missed it, did Assad ever use chemicals weapons or commit war crimes? 

I'm not believing something pushed by the Kremlin as much as I'm not accepting at face value the story pushed by the Trump admin.

 

Has Assad committed war crimes during all this? Yes.

 

Should we intervene militarily? I say no.

 

See you boys in the morning. We can argue more later. Smooches.

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Brian Fantana

Brian Fantana 6690

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

maninblack has been consistently against all foreign intervention like this for years. His libertarianism is rooted in the non-aggression principle and it’s not negotiable.

That may be misguided in itself or his take on some things might veer too much into the conspiracy theorists camp for some. Fine. Debate that. But to act like he’s a Russian shill is pretty disingenuous given his pretty vocal history.

I couldn't care less whether he's a shill or not, nor do any of his opinions carry any weight or meaning. Libertarians are just nihilistic anarchists and do not deserve the smallest amount of respect.

That said, most of the backlash against his kind is the fault of all the Trumpkins who actually are bizarrely batting for Assad, or at least were before Dear Leader decided to throw some bombs.

 

 

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13055

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, maninblack said:

I'm not believing something pushed by the Kremlin as much as I'm not accepting at face value the story pushed by the Trump admin.

 

Has Assad committed war crimes during all this? Yes.

 

Should we intervene militarily? I say no.

See you boys in the morning. We can argue more later. Smooches.

This is all anyone was looking for. Straightforward answers instead of whataboutism and moral equivalence

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Amen.

MIB is asking the questions that need answers.

Who and what replaces Assad? What's the exit strategy? How many souls perish? Where does the cancer of war spread if we destabilize Syria?

Destabilize Syria ?  That's not where we are.

I always prefer non-militaristic intervention.  I'd start with total financial choke-out of Putin then see where Assad stands.

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Brian Fantana

Brian Fantana 6690

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Destabilize Syria ?  That's not where we are.

I always prefer non-militaristic intervention.  I'd start with total financial choke-out of Putin then see where Assad stands.

We kind of already tried this. The economic sanctions and oil prices cratering in 2014 nearly collapsed their economy.

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