Cowboy Boots

[Masshole Horn 769]

"it's sketchy that they are sort of copying the look but they are different boots"
Isn't that RTIC's entire business plan? lol

Exactly, I think everyone knows what’s going on.

[billfromlaketravis 11447]

I watched the entire video above. It’s 28 minutes of life that I’ll never get back. 

My conclusions: 

- Tecovas is a dressier boot while Cuero is more utilitarian. That said, Cuero has better stitching. 

- I don’t know how the reviewer can call Cuero the more comfortable boot if they don’t fit. Sure Cuero has better arch support, but does it matter? If they’re so narrow you can’t wear the boot it defeats the purpose. Almost every Cuero review in this thread states they run snug. 

I need a boot that is comfortable as possible. I’llprobably have to stand for 8-12 hours at a time in boots. I’ll pay the extra $80-90 to ensure comfort. 

Something I’d recommend for everyone’s beaters is to have a cobbler install heel, toe, and sole protectors. It greatly extends the life of your boots. 

 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

Here are a few pictures after I sliced the tops off. Not a whole lot of commentary here. The lining isn't glued to the outer layer of leather. It is only held in place by the seams where they are sewn together. This probably saves them a little time in a factory environment, but it was unexpected because there weren't any issues with the lining or anything. I will note that the uppers were not sewn completely through the lining with the stitching. Back in the day, their glue was like wheat paste and stuff that didn't last, so sewing the uppers all the way through helped hold the liners in place. You don't always see that on antique boots and I guess that is because it really doesn't matter that much apparently. Most folks who do leather work by hand glue pieces together before stitching just because it makes things easier, but I guess if you are doing the same thing all day in a factory you get pretty good and don't need to waste time on the step. 

The to bug was sewn all the way through. This is probably more important for comfort and durability than the shaft being sewn through, and I suspect that that was the original purpose of the toe bug.

If you look at the last picture, you can see that the seams where the upper and lower part of the vamp are sewn together are staggered a bit. This is good and helps to keep from having a spot that rubs a blister on your foot. 

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by NotActuallyALonghorn

[TwiceHorn 31436]

Possible that the shaft lining was glued, but came loose over time? 

This new (to me) trend of not stitching through the shaft lining is weird.  Certainly, if they were still hand stitiched, it would require more care and effort to get through two layers while making a pattern with tiny stitches.  But since we're talking machine-sewn, that wouldn't seem to be an issue, and it seems weird that it saves any money.  I guess the outer layer can be stitched separate from the lining and that speeds/cheapens things.

Also, on all my boots over time stitched through the lining, the stitching inside was white and colored on the outside.  That seems like machine sewing?  No?  I don't know.

Also, on the vamp photos, it appears that maybe there was canvas between the outer leather and the lining?  Theres some fabric wrapped around the midsole there?

Edited April 26, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[HoustonHorn 1062]

How snug do the Cuero's wear? I wear a size 12 but have never really had any issues with width and any shoes. Are the 12Ds going to be alright?

[4th&Five 41506]

I'm wearing 13D and actually like the snugness vs. Tecovas.  The Tecovas can slide a little sometimes when I wear a thin sock and the Cueros stay in place.  Good thing is you can return for free if you don't like it.

[HoustonHorn 1062]

I definitely don't want my feet sliding around. Don't mind snug.

I'm wearing 13D and actually like the snugness vs. Tecovas.  The Tecovas can slide a little sometimes when I wear a thin sock and the Cueros stay in place.  Good thing is you can return for free if you don't like it.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Possible that the shaft lining was glued, but came loose over time? 

This new (to me) trend of not stitching through the shaft lining is weird.  Certainly, if they were still hand stitiched, it would require more care and effort to get through two layers while making a pattern with tiny stitches.  But since we're talking machine-sewn, that wouldn't seem to be an issue, and it seems weird that it saves any money.  I guess the outer layer can be stitched separate from the lining and that speeds/cheapens things.

Also, on all my boots over time stitched through the lining, the stitching inside was white and colored on the outside.  That seems like machine sewing?  No?  I don't know.

Also, on the vamp photos, it appears that maybe there was canvas between the outer leather and the lining?  Theres some fabric wrapped around the midsole there?

There was no remnant or indication of there ever being glue in there. The glue bond is typically stronger than the leather, so there would be bits of dissimilar leather stuck together if any had been there in the past. And while I'm not sure how not stitching through the liner can save money, I've only ever seen it on less expensive boots made in Mexico, so I'm sure it must somehow. All the boots I saw in Mexico when I was looking for boots down there last month that were in the 1500 peso range were like that. It wasn't until you started getting into the 3000 peso range or so that you started seeing uppers stitched all the way through. Everything on boots these days is machine sewn, with the exception of sewing the upper to the insole and welt on nicer boots, so I don't know how it saves time or money except that maybe it has to do with their steps. Like they have one person who puts together liners that can go on any number of uppers.

The stuff on the inside of the uppers was some sort of interfacing. Probably a type of iron on fabric designed to stiffen it up and give it a bit more structure.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

Here is what the inside looks like with the top cut off.

It was pretty nasty in there from and the junk that accumulates from normal wear. Lots of leg hairs and lint.

Underneath the leather was foamy type layer.

Underneath that layer you can see the shank support bit. The old school way is to make this out of a flattened nail. The one they used broke on both ends.

Here it is out of the boot. It basically just has a prong on either end and is hammered in place.

Now, if we go back to the previous photo, you can see where the upper around the shank was nailed together. They basically just nailed it and left the heads all curled up. It's a little crude, but was effective. You can also see further inside where they stitched the upper to the bottom board thingies. More on that later.

Edited April 27, 2019 by NotActuallyALonghorn

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

Here's a picture pointing out one of the nails curled up. No sign of the wooden pegs making it that far. But like I said, they were probably more decoration than functional. Also, note that the brass nails from the outsole in post #273 would have been sticking up in this area and bent over as well.

Edited April 27, 2019 by NotActuallyALonghorn

[HoustonHorn 1062]

Follow up on the Cueros. Ordered the Austins and the Eastwoods, both in 12D. The Eastwoods for fine, a little snug but won't be an issue. They are comfortable. The Austin's are simply to tight so I'll return those. Don't know if it would be better to go one size up or go wider. The problem is they are to snuff ok the top, not necessarily the width or length.

Seem to be good quality, especially for the price.

[NoName 16350]

17 hours ago, HoustonHorn said:

Follow up on the Cueros. Ordered the Austins and the Eastwoods, both in 12D. The Eastwoods for fine, a little snug but won't be an issue. They are comfortable. The Austin's are simply to tight so I'll return those. Don't know if it would be better to go one size up or go wider. The problem is they are to snuff ok the top, not necessarily the width or length.

Seem to be good quality, especially for the price.

I mean, assuming they keep the price low it is hard to undershoot expectations for a $150 boot as long as they are decent and offer decent customer service or return.

I got mine in last week but had a busy weekend out of town so haven't even tried them on yet.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

On 4/25/2019 at 10:15 PM, billfromlaketravis said:

Well if this doesn't settle the Tecovas v Cuero debate, nothing will : 

 

Holy shit.  “They use a twist-cone last” but he’s never seen a boot bag.  First 8 minutes was all about the box, and the smell, and the return label.  

My blood pressure rose 10 points watching that guy sit playing with boots on a rub-down, second-hand futon while the other guy spoke nonsense about the “experience” and the packaging. 

[Steel Shank 9421]

Got the same vibe.When the guy put his leg up on the table, let's just say I wasn't shocked to see he had his jeans rolled up. Dude needs his ass kicked.

I stopped in The Texas Boot Company in Bastrop the other day (they do the TV commercial with Shipley and Colt). Had a really good variety of boots. The owner is Mark. Nice guy. He'll even offer you a beer if you'd like.

[billfromlaketravis 11447]

Tecovas jumped the shark : https://www.tecovas.com/products/the-dean

Booties for men. Shaking my head. I assume they'll sell men's handbags next. 

[PantsTent 2002]

I went to the Tacovas store yesterday. It was crazy busy but no problem getting help to find the right size. And they have free beer which comes in a free coozie. I ended up not buying but I'm set on size when I'm ready to pull the trigger. And have said coozie...

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

Alright, so here are the final pictures of the AB Horsepower boots.

These two pictures show how the welt is attached, which is a significant departure from traditional goodyear welted or hand welted boot or shoe production. Traditional hand welted construction uses a leather insole  with a groove carved out so that you can stitch the welt and insole together with the upper like this:

The outsole is then stiched onto the welt so that it can be easily replaced. Another method used is the goodyear welt, which uses a canvas rib glued to the insole. The upper and welt are then sewn to the canvas rib. It kinda looks like this:

Another method of shoe construction usually used for shoes like loafers or boat shoes is called blake stitching. Blake stitching involves using a special sewing machine that sews through the upper, insole, and outsole all at once. This makes for a nice flexible shoe, but not one that is easily repairable. The blake sewing machine is different in that it has to be able to reach inside the shoe to sew it up. 

Now, if we look back at the second picture of the AB Horsepower boots, there is canvas gemming attached to the welt, but is is sewn down with a blake stitch sewing machine instead of being merely glued. The welt is then sewn to the gemming. I will have to look back and see if they used a blake stitch all the way through the upper and insole for that part, but I believe they did. The tip of my knife in the first picture is pointing out where that row of stitching is buried in the leather. Notice also that the welt is sewn flat onto the gemming with this method, so there isn't as much space to fill up with whatever filler they want to use. That should make for a lower profile and more flexible boot. I can't find any reference to this sort of hybrid construction, but I would call it blake welting. It's similar to the blake rapid construction technique, but with a welt instead of a midsole. The second picture also shows how they tacked the ends of the welt on for extra strength.

Anyhow, except for the fiberboard type insole stuff, it should be a very effective technique. As I said earlier, these boots lasted just fine for as long as it took to wear clear through the sole, so if you just want some boots to wear out and toss they are a great option. If you want a pair that is built to last then I would spend a little more money on something built a little more traditionally. When I get some more time I will tear apart the Texas made pair of Anderson Beans I have which are supposed to be traditionally constructed so we can compare the two.

Edited April 30, 2019 by NotActuallyALonghorn

[Llano Estacado 1257]

So which one of those pieces is rubbing on another making my left ostrich lucchese squeak like a dog toy anytime I walk on something harder than 1968 double shag carpet?

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

It's probably coming from the leather in the heel. Maybe where the stacked leather comes into contact with the outsole?

[TwiceHorn 31436]

I have also heard that slight movement of/around the shank can cause squeaking.

[Godzillatron 292]

I went to the Tacovas store yesterday. It was crazy busy but no problem getting help to find the right size. And they have free beer which comes in a free coozie. I ended up not buying but I'm set on size when I'm ready to pull the trigger. And have said coozie...

Now I am disappoint. Went to store, bought boots. Not offered beer or coozie.

Like the boots though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[billfromlaketravis 11447]

20 hours ago, PantsTent said:

I went to the Tacovas store yesterday. It was crazy busy but no problem getting help to find the right size. And they have free beer which comes in a free coozie. I ended up not buying but I'm set on size when I'm ready to pull the trigger. And have said coozie...

Finessin' the game. 

[Masshole Horn 769]

Cuero Ropers in cherry arrived last night. They were previously tried on with scuffed soles, but at $130, I let it slide. Interesting that they go on easier than Tecovas, but once on, have a tighter fit.

Overall, Tecovas are a better boot for me.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

Hard to complain about boots that cost less than a good full boot reconditioning. 

[Llano Estacado 1257]

It’s not the heel, it’s the shank. Heels don’t squeak. You probably feel the creak too, right?

Can’t feel it.

Checked them out with a little more detail last night. The only way I can generate the squeak with the boot off my foot is to tweak the stacked leather heel pretty hard side to side. I see a tiny air gap between the top piece of heel leather and the outsole (toeside/front - under my arch). Moderate amount of grime build up where the upper tucks in to the outsole/welt around the heel. Haven’t had a clean or polish in while.

If the shank is broken I think I’d feel it left vs right or flexing the outsole with my hands? If there’s air or rubbing /movement around the shank there is nothing I can do about aside from a complete rebuild, correct? Drench the insole in leather conditioner?

I need to hit the whole collection with a good clean and polish, try and do that this weekend. Maybe try and get some extra Bick4 or mink oil around the heel welt and outsole/heel piece and see if it improves.

Always hear a few office hall stompers or shoe squeaks in the quietest conditions, doesn’t bother me, but I’m a little self-conscious about that pair of boots, as it’s loud and asymmetrical when I go to pick up my TPS report cover sheets from the printer.

[BabaYaga 15286]

49 minutes ago, Llano Estacado said:

TPS report cover sheets from the printer.

Do you have four bosses.....

[4th&Five 41506]

[billfromlaketravis 11447]

It’s no big deal, but some of the piping came loose on my Tecovas Cartwrights after only 3-4 wears. My cobbler is fixing it for 7 bucks, but still the boots shouldn’t do that after such light use. 

[Masshole Horn 769]

Was browsing the Cavender’s website. They have store brand boots. Some made by “Old Gringo” others made in Nocona.

 

Does anyone have experience with their house brand boots? Prices seem pretty reasonable.

 

[GreenspointTexas 9598]

Who makes the best boots money can buy? 

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31436]

13 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Who makes the best boots money can buy? 

 

 

One of the custom makers.  I am quite partial to the work of Brian Thomas out of Abilene. https://www.flickr.com/photos/34485294@N03/

There are a bunch of good ones.

Lucchese Classic, Black Jack, and Rios are the best production bootmakers going, I think.

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[DallasHorn26 586]

40 minutes ago, Masshole Horn said:

Was browsing the Cavender’s website. They have store brand boots. Some made by “Old Gringo” others made in Nocona.

 

Does anyone have experience with their house brand boots? Prices seem pretty reasonable.

 

I had some of these.  They were comfortable, but wore out after 2 years.  I tend to wear mine quite a a bit (2-3) times a week.  My heels wore down on the edges pretty quickly, and a whole eventually wore in the bottom.  My next pair, I'm going to try some heel taps/plates to see if that helps prevent from wearing so quickly. 

[TwiceHorn 31436]

45 minutes ago, Masshole Horn said:

Was browsing the Cavender’s website. They have store brand boots. Some made by “Old Gringo” others made in Nocona.

 

Does anyone have experience with their house brand boots? Prices seem pretty reasonable.

 

Experience, no.  I handled some of the store brand, at that time "Larry Mahan" boots made in the old Nocona factory.  They were decent.  Probably Tecovas quality. A lot of ropers (or all ropers) because those lend themselves to fully stitched soles, less shaft stitching, etc.  Old Gringo I think is a "hecho" company.  For a long time, "hechos" were a real good deal in boots, because they were traditionally made in a low-cost labor market.  Now, as demonstrated on this thread, "hechos" take a lot of the shortcuts Berkshire Hathaway and others take.  I think there are still some great values in "hecho" boots, but they tend to be chuntarito styled.

[TwiceHorn 31436]

5 minutes ago, DallasHorn26 said:

I had some of these.  They were comfortable, but wore out after 2 years.  I tend to wear mine quite a a bit (2-3) times a week.  My heels wore down on the edges pretty quickly, and a whole eventually wore in the bottom.  My next pair, I'm going to try some heel taps/plates to see if that helps prevent from wearing so quickly. 

Not to be too big a dick, but all boots are going to wear on the rubber heel caps and all are going to get holes in the soles, eventually.  The critical question is how well and how many times they can be resoled/rebuilt.  Cheap or modern construction boots can be half-soled once or twice then done.  Traditionally made boots can be resoled and rebuilt practically forever. Thin or lower grade sole leather is one way to cut cost that affects initial wear but probably not overall quality.

[DallasHorn26 586]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Not to be too big a dick, but all boots are going to wear on the rubber heel caps and all are going to get holes in the soles, eventually.  The critical question is how well and how many times they can be resoled/rebuilt.  Cheap or modern construction boots can be half-soled once or twice then done.  Traditionally made boots can be resoled and rebuilt practically forever. Thin or lower grade sole leather is one way to cut cost that affects initial wear but probably not overall quality.

Not a dick at all.  I knew from experience  I would get 2-3 years at most out of them.  I just haven't invested in a better quality pair yet.

Edited May 8, 2019 by DallasHorn26

[Masshole Horn 769]

Cheap or modern construction boots can be half-soled once or twice then done.  Traditionally made boots can be resoled and rebuilt practically forever.

Where on the modern/traditional spectrum would you put Tecovas?

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

I would bet that Tecovas are similar in quality to the AB Horsepower boots I deconstructed earlier on this thread. They are both made in Leon and have similar characteristics from what you can see on the outside. If somebody wants to send me a pair I can do the same thing to them and post a commentary. I still have an old pair of made in Texas AB's I need to deconstruct.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

4 hours ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Who makes the best boots money can buy? 

 

 

If I was going to go production and money was no object I would go with Rios of Mercedes. 

[TwiceHorn 31436]

3 hours ago, Masshole Horn said:

 

Where on the modern/traditional spectrum would you put Tecovas?

I'm just guessing, based on their own videos, and what leather craftsman and budding bootmaker NotActuallyALonghorn has shown, but I am guessing in the kind of midrange, like he says, the AB Horsepower boots he deconstructed above.  Not a full Goodyear welt with leather insole and midsole, which is what you need for reconstructability.  Probably wider use of glue over stitching pegs and nails.

There are also the Berkshire Hathaway and Lucchese 1883 (or whatever their lower end) and many others with the "cushion insole."  I havent seen those dissected, but the whole cushion insole concept is inconsistent with full Goodyear welt and leather in- and midsoles.  They could still be Goodyear welted, but those peripheral materials are going to wear out faster than leather and be harder to replace.  I know that people get the "J-flex" boots resoled at least once.

Edited May 8, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31436]

30 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

If I was going to go production and money was no object I would go with Rios of Mercedes. 

Rios don't seem to be all that expensive, considering.  Certainly not compared to Lucchese Classics.  Supposedly, Black Jack is composed of or began with a bunch of Lucchese bootmakers laid off when some conglomerate bought them and started adding the lower-cost boots to the line, and cutting down on the Classics.  From handling them, they are very similar in outward construction to Classics.  And I think Classics are nearly made to order, semi-custom these days.  You don't see a lot of "in-stock" ones and many have a 4-6 week waiting period.

Pinto Ranch, at least the one in Northpark in Dallas, is a very douchey store, but they have a pretty nice selection of high-end boots where you can get an idea what the makers make.  Like thestud said, a lot of them are probably "make up" boots, or store specials.  https://www.pintoranch.com/cowboy-boots/mens-boots.html

When you are buying that level of boot, might as well go semi-custom and order them. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[billfromlaketravis 11447]

It’s a good price and they look great, but for $700 I’d be concerned about the durability of Tecovas’ new gator boots. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

14 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm just guessing, based on their own videos, and what leather craftsman and budding bootmaker NotActuallyALonghorn has shown, but I am guessing in the kind of midrange, like he says, the AB Horsepower boots he deconstructed above.  Not a full Goodyear welt with leather insole and midsole, which is what you need for reconstructability.  Probably wider use of glue over stitching pegs and nails.

There are also the Berkshire Hathaway and Lucchese 1883 (or whatever their lower end) and many others with the "cushion insole."  I havent seen those dissected, but the whole cushion insole concept is inconsistent with full Goodyear welt and leather in- and midsoles.  They could still be Goodyear welted, but those peripheral materials are going to wear out faster than leather and be harder to replace.  I know that people get the "J-flex" boots resoled at least once.

I can't call myself a budding bootmaker or anything  of the like just yet. I have a pair of (shoe) lasts that I will need to modify for making boots and do some leather work as a hobby. Taking on a pair of boots will be a pretty ambitious undertaking and I still need to gather some tools and other supplies to make it happen.

[NoName 16350]

9 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

It’s a good price and they look great, but for $700 I’d be concerned about the durability of Tecovas’ new gator boots. 

i mean, i get them going after the exotics, but if you are going to spend $700 on them, why wouldn't you just spend the extra like $300 for Lucchese? 

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 hour ago, NoName said:

i mean, i get them going after the exotics, but if you are going to spend $700 on them, why wouldn't you just spend the extra like $300 for Lucchese? 

This.  

[fattyflattie 4639]

Also, damn this thread.  Now looking for best set of gator to replace my caiman bellys.  

[TwiceHorn 31436]

42 minutes ago, thestud said:

 

 

To the best of my knowledge Brian hasn’t taken on any new customers in over a decade.

Probably right.  He sure doesn't put himself out there much.  Still making, though, as evidenced by his photos.

[TwiceHorn 31436]

2 hours ago, NoName said:

i mean, i get them going after the exotics, but if you are going to spend $700 on them, why wouldn't you just spend the extra like $300 for Lucchese? 

You aren't getting Lucchese Classic alligator for 1000.  1883, or caiman or something, but not gator classic.  $1500 minimum, unless you find some kind of stellar deal.  And I'm not sure non-classics are worth any Lucchese premium.

Edited May 9, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20390]

On 5/8/2019 at 10:20 PM, billfromlaketravis said:

It’s a good price and they look great, but for $700 I’d be concerned about the durability of Tecovas’ new gator boots. 

I think they are horribly ugly.  The "unique strip style construction"  is so cheesy and the vamps are not nice-looking, either.  This seems like a misstep for Tecovas.

Still like my ostrich Tecovas and my Cartwrights but won't be buying the alligator models.  

Also, whoever said Rios of Mercedes:  I bought a pair and got a pair for Christmas and they are excellent quality boots.  I have received so many compliments. They are made in Texas, too.

 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20390]

On 5/9/2019 at 10:03 AM, thestud said:

https://andersonbean.com/boots/stock-styles/s3006

I just can't get into the square-toe look. I'm trying to get myself there but they don't look right to me. 

[texashorne 1177]

On 5/7/2019 at 8:42 PM, billfromlaketravis said:

It’s no big deal, but some of the piping came loose on my Tecovas Cartwrights after only 3-4 wears. My cobbler is fixing it for 7 bucks, but still the boots shouldn’t do that after such light use. 

I complained of an issue with mine.. They sent me postage and had me return them.. Then mailed me a new pair..