Formula One 2020

[utee94 16081]

1 hour ago, wood said:

Ouch.

Sad but true.

[wood 11764]

Finally getting to watch FP2 just now. Ted's interview with Renault's Marcin Budkowski was very telling. It seems the main thrust of Renault's protest of RP is based on the interior of the brake duct...i.e. that photos won;t reveal the interior design of the brake duct, and that if RP's brake duct is the same on the inside as the Merc 2019 brake duct, then they had help with that design.

At the end of the interview, he said something to the effect that if the internals were the same, that he would think the FIA would then go ahead and inspect the entire car. In other words, I don't think he's saying identical internals would constitute proof so much as it would constitute just cause for investigating the car further.

Edited July 18, 2020 by wood

[PittsburghTiger 6341]

That was fun first sector for qualifying.  Time for Kimi to step aside

[PittsburghTiger 6341]

Good for Williams getting both cars in Q2

Perez & Stroll 1&2 in Q1

Edited July 18, 2020 by PittsburghTiger

[PittsburghTiger 6341]

Gasly moves to Q3, Albon does not

[Anton Chigurh 3335]

George faster than Albon there.

Way to go, George!

[PittsburghTiger 6341]

Good save by Ferrari, 5&6. 
 

Mercedes fill the top-4

Max struggled 

[Prepuce of Doom 21285]

I keep reading "Aramco" as "Armco" and regularly find myself almost wondering why the barriers are getting so much hype and advertising space. 

[PittsburghTiger 6341]

On 7/13/2020 at 6:05 PM, PittsburghTiger said:

I have a friend who is friends with Gunther. I will have to ask him how miserable Gunther has been of late.

I saw my friend last night at the races and he said he has not talked to Gunther since just before the season started.

[TonyTexas 10764]

42 minutes ago, PittsburghTiger said:

I saw my friend last night at the races and he said he has not talked to Gunther since just before the season started.

Haas is most likely done after this season. Will Steiner catch on somewhere else?

[Updawg 2385]

Not in the same job

[TonyTexas 10764]

Lulz. Max crashes on warmup lap. 

[RamjetFDO 10648]

Rain. Don't rain.

Make up your mind.

[RamjetFDO 10648]

The Lando-LeClerc squabble is fun... I'm becoming a Lando fan.

[ChickenSandwich 9958]

Haas with points. Well done. Lewis nearly laps the entire field. Rubbish 

[52-80 19377]

2 hours ago, TonyTexas said:

Lulz. Max crashes on warmup lap. 

Maximum lol

I was expecting with to tangle with Bottas if Bottas had made his way up there

[elfenix 34749]

Everyone: 4 cars fighting for position, this is what I want to watch!

International feed director: here's some men standing in a garage

[elfenix 34749]

16.6 holy fuck

[elfenix 34749]

Great call by haas to go onto slicks and start from the pit, saved a stop and netted them some points.

 

 

[elfenix 34749]

RB cleared of drying the grid spot

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gpfans.com/amp/article.php%3fid=54613

 

 

[elfenix 34749]

apparently telling the driver to pit is an illegal driver aid, kmag and grosjean were given 10 second penalties. 

"having considered the matter extensively, the stewards determined that the team instructed the driver to pit."

wtf

[Hawndoh 2409]

That's pretty stupid.

[Anton Chigurh 3335]

Lando moonlighting as a mechanic.

[Goofyboy 3432]

What happened to Lando? I thought I heard he got stuck on Pit Lane and that was sorta it for his race today.

Hamilton lapping the whole field is awesome. He left Max in the dust. Love watching him drive.

[Kdub 515]

The Mercs are dominant, then put a driver the caliber of Hamilton and that car can't be beat unless he screws up, which is rare. If he surpasses Schumacher  in wins and championships, is he the GOAT?

[Goofyboy 3432]

The Mercs are dominant, then put a driver the caliber of Hamilton and that car can't be beat unless he screws up, which is rare. If he surpasses Schumacher  in wins and championships, is he the GOAT?

No. He’s the greatest Of this era. Schumacher was the best at his time. Technology changes, as well as the cars. GOAT arguments are impossible.

[PittsburghTiger 6341]

2 hours ago, Kdub said:

The Mercs are dominant, then put a driver the caliber of Hamilton and that car can't be beat unless he screws up, which is rare. If he surpasses Schumacher  in wins and championships, is he the GOAT?

I think too dominant.  They need to level the spending, years ago. I don’t want them to become NASCAR, but the playing field has to be much more level.

49 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

No. He’s the greatest Of this era. Schumacher was the best at his time. Technology changes, as well as the cars. GOAT arguments are impossible.

I’m pretty much in complete agreement.

Schumacher will always be my favorite.

Edited July 20, 2020 by PittsburghTiger

[pops 7142]

I dont know shit about shit... like i said I'm a relative newbie. But vettel owned hamilton at red bull. Was it just that they were so close that when Mercedes said f it and threw everything at it, the car combined with driver is that good?  And why can't the ponies keep up?   They spend more than anyone. 

[elfenix 34749]

18 hours ago, pops said:

I dont know shit about shit... like i said I'm a relative newbie. But vettel owned hamilton at red bull. Was it just that they were so close that when Mercedes said f it and threw everything at it, the car combined with driver is that good?  And why can't the ponies keep up?   They spend more than anyone. 

decades ago it was said that the difference between the best and worst drivers on track was about half a second a lap.  best and worst cars was several times that.  those RB machines hacked the rules. 

it's rare we get really equal comparisons in F1 - the best drivers aren't usually in the same equipment and the equipment matters more than the driver in F1.  we do have one of those data points for hamilton.  he just edged alonso as a rookie when both were at mclaren (tied on points, came in second in the championship on tiebreakers to alonso's third). 

hamilton also won the last split driver/constructor championship, which should probably count for something.

that said, vettel has never lost a championship to someone like nico rosberg. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by elfenix
spelling/words

[wood 11764]

12 hours ago, Kdub said:

The Mercs are dominant, then put a driver the caliber of Hamilton and that car can't be beat unless he screws up, which is rare. If he surpasses Schumacher  in wins and championships, is he the GOAT?

Statistically, yes ... but in this sport, the car matters more than the driver. Stats in F1 rarely get you close to the real story when it comes to drivers. So I'd say no. The car has been so dominant since 2014 that if you put a Max, Alonso, Leclerc etc in it, they'd cruise to championships, too. Look what Vettel did with RBR.  And some say that other drivers wouldn't have lost out to Rosberg and/or that they would have dominated even more thoroughly, esp earlier in this PU era.

[wood 11764]

9 hours ago, pops said:

I dont know shit about shit... like i said I'm a relative newbie. But vettel owned hamilton at red bull. Was it just that they were so close that when Mercedes said f it and threw everything at it, the car combined with driver is that good?  And why can't the ponies keep up?   They spend more than anyone. 

Vettel destroyed everyone at RBR. And look at what he's done since.  Just goes to show how dominant the car is in F1.

The main thing (among others, of course) that killed Ferrari is lack of in-season testing. They used to just throw everything at testing, and could afford to out-test everyone by a huge margin. In this era, having a massive engineering infrastructure like Merc does is huge. I've also heard good info that Toto has said "money is not an object" and that Merc was willing to spend "whatever it takes to win" and dominate in F1 (yes, they're quotes, but you won't find them in any source). The only two that can come close to that are Ferrari and RBR, but I doubt they can win in a spending war with Merc, even if they had the will to do so.

Edited July 20, 2020 by wood

[wood 11764]

11 hours ago, PittsburghTiger said:

I think too dominant.  They need to level the spending, years ago. I don’t want them to become NASCAR, but the playing field has to be much more level.

Yep ... and they finally are. A cap of $145M is going to put a hurt on the big spenders much more than it will teams like Renault, McLaren, RP, etc. They're used to working with budgets in that ballpark, but the big teams are going to have to re-learn learn how to do things where how much you spend overall really IS an object, and you have to decide how much you can allocate to this, that, and the other thing. If it's enforced well, it's going to be interesting. 

That's why we see Alonso coming back and Renault prioritizing 2022. Anything could happen with the new formula and a budget cap.

[wood 11764]

BTW, a couple of things from the F1 weekend, not really related to this race ...

 

- Ted's FP2 interview with Renault's Marcin Budkowski was very telling. The main thrust of Renault's protest of RP is based on the interior of the brake duct...i.e.  that photos won't reveal the interior design of the brake duct, and that if RP's brake duct is the same on the inside as the Merc 2019 brake duct, then they very likely had help with that design.

At the end of the interview, he said something to the effect that if the internals were the same, that he would think the FIA would then go ahead and inspect the entire car. In other words, I don't think he's saying identical internals would constitute proof so much as that they would warrant investigating the car further.

I've said since the beginning that I don't believe RP copied that car  - and made it work - simply by photographing it from the outside. You could use photos to make a design that looks like a Merc, but making it work would require more than just knowing what it looks like on the outside.

 

- And this ... is nothing short of remarkable...

Apparently after talking about it again, the stewards & FIA say the outcome of an incident like STR-RIC in Austria will be different if it happens this weekend.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/150691/ricciardo-fia-would-now-review-stroll-move-differently?_ga=2.258558090.1847307833.1594751981-1850046265.1584561792

Quote

...

The incident was discussed in Friday's drivers' briefing in Hungary, where on hearing that the stewards had changed their view Ricciardo joked that he would like his points back.
"If it happens again today then we'd swap positions," he said when asked by Autosport.
"I think after the facts, they accepted that they would have done something different.
"But once Sunday night passes and Monday rolls over, the results are fixed. And you can't go back and switch positions or anything. So obviously a bit frustrated."

...

It doesn't help me now, or a few days ago, but I think that they are aware that there's a difference between that incident and the Leclerc/Verstappen incident last year, and that's that's the big one, it's the same corner. And it's still a very different outcome of the incident. So I think they're aligned with that now, it's not the same. At first, I think they did feel it was the same, which is why the initial penalty wasn't given."

 

I mean really. Think about that for a moment. An incident that almost everyone could instantly see was very different from VER-LEC 2019 was seen by the stewards as being the same. And then they come back a week later and basically admit they really didn't look very hard at it in the first place, which led to the mess that cost 2 teams points.

Wow.

Edited July 20, 2020 by wood

[ChickenSandwich 9958]

Besides the spending cap, did they follow through on any of the other suggestions?

A few I remember that would seem to help competition. 
 

Get rid of the tire sensors/monitors on the cars. Make the driver responsible for that. 
 

The other was assisted driving like in the case of Haas this weekend. Allow less communication from the team to the driver during the race. Make them make their own engine mapping decisions, button pushing etc. no more “mode 7 for 5 seconds after turn 8, then push button 11 for three seconds etc. “. Make the driver more responsible (almost totally) for the driving and management of the car on track. 

[wood 11764]

17 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Besides the spending cap, did they follow through on any of the other suggestions?

A few I remember that would seem to help competition. 
 

Get rid of the tire sensors/monitors on the cars. Make the driver responsible for that. 
 

The other was assisted driving like in the case of Haas this weekend. Allow less communication from the team to the driver during the race. Make them make their own engine mapping decisions, button pushing etc. no more “mode 7 for 5 seconds after turn 8, then push button 11 for three seconds etc. “. Make the driver more responsible (almost totally) for the driving and management of the car on track. 

Absolutely, I'd be all for all of that but, iirc, no, they didn't. They did make a coaching rule, but I thought they had walked that back a bit, so I was taken aback by the penalty yesterday. I guess I'm misremembering.

Getting rid of the telemetry and pit wall control of the PU, tires, fuel, etc, at least during qualifying and the race, would be huge imho. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by wood

[PittsburghTiger 6341]

I think they should be allowed to be as creative as they can, within the budget, but ultimately the looking after the tires, the temps, etc., should all fall on the driver.

These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, let them be more than robots. 

[wood 11764]

BTW, re: RBR, even as dominant as they were, they could never consistently just walk away from everyone the way Merc has consistently been able to do for the last 7 seasons.

[faps 818]

Mercedes nailed the engine regs from the start, now they have the best chassis too. Game over man.

Wish we could go back to the simpler engine formula at the very least.

[pops 7142]

Is the spending cap really going to affect mercedes and Ferrari,  though?   Can't they just pretend they are throwing money at the next la Ferrari  or AMG halo car and then implement that into the F1 car?  I think the last number I saw was Ferrari spending 750 million per year on their f1 cars. Mercedes has to be similar. No way in the world the just say fuck it....guess we have an extra 600 million. 

[wood 11764]

18 minutes ago, pops said:

Is the spending cap really going to affect mercedes and Ferrari,  though?   Can't they just pretend they are throwing money at the next la Ferrari  or AMG halo car and then implement that into the F1 car?  I think the last number I saw was Ferrari spending 750 million per year on their f1 cars. Mercedes has to be similar. No way in the world the just say fuck it....guess we have an extra 600 million. 

Enforcement has been where my budget cap skepticism lies, too ...  but F1 is starting a whole new department just for monitoring and enforcement of the cap, & they say they'll be able to track it. I suppose they actually could do that, if they're serious and smart. But we'll see...

Edited July 20, 2020 by wood

[faps 818]

I guess if the big teams lay off 60% of their workforce, it'll be obvious that they are abiding.

[Hawndoh 2409]

If Ferrari actually does start up an IndyCar program just to keep from laying off a ton of people that would be pretty cool.

[faps 818]

Saw this on reddit. Max vs Albon at Hungary. Max is fucking demolishing him.

[Updawg 2385]

Saw this on reddit. Max vs Albon at Hungary. Max is fucking demolishing him.

To be fair albon had a bad setup on the car all weekend. He was never happy with it. I like albon though

How happy is Ferrari with caps? I thought they were against it?

[elfenix 34749]

2 hours ago, Hawndoh said:

If Ferrari actually does start up an IndyCar program just to keep from laying off a ton of people that would be pretty cool.

I wonder if Merc ne Ilmor goes back to supplying Indycar engines for the same reason.  I know, Ilmor never left Indy, providing various Chevy-branded engines and also helping engineer the Honda v8, but that's a different company with Mario Illien and The Captain, no Paul Morgan. 

[faps 818]

37 minutes ago, Updawg said:

To be fair albon had a bad setup on the car all weekend. He was never happy with it. I like albon though

How happy is Ferrari with caps? I thought they were against it?

I like Albon too. He was stuck in traffic a lot while Max was in free air "chasing" Lewis.

[Huckleberry 34633]

13 hours ago, wood said:

Statistically, yes ... but in this sport, the car matters more than the driver. Stats in F1 rarely get you close to the real story when it comes to drivers. So I'd say no. The car has been so dominant since 2014 that if you put a Max, Alonso, Leclerc etc in it, they'd cruise to championships, too. Look what Vettel did with RBR.  And some say that other drivers wouldn't have lost out to Rosberg and/or that they would have dominated even more thoroughly, esp earlier in this PU era.

Agreed. Gun to my head Verstappen is the fastest driver right now and I wouldn't really hesitate. 

Where I'd hesitate would be if asked for the most consistently fast driver, i.e. including car management, consistency both in race and week to week, etc. I can believe Hamilton may be the best from that perspective. But if you lined the current grid up in identical cars and gave them all the same odds for a race I'd put all of my money on Verstappen. 

[Updawg 2385]

So do you think Grosjean could break the top 10 or 5 in a Mercedes

[faps 818]

It would be cool if one of the support races was all the drivers in a 15 lap race in V8 supercars or maybe a kart race. Hell that could even determine the grid, though the knock out qualifying is good too. 

[elfenix 34749]

2 minutes ago, Updawg said:

So do you think Grosjean could break the top 10 or 5 in a Mercedes

stroll was 4th in last year's merc