Formula One 2020

[PittsburghTiger 6,136]

What do you all make of Hamilton these races, today & Italy, not being able to cut into the time of the leaders?

https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-russian-grand-prix-team-radio-reveals-mercedes-gave-lewis-hamilton-the-go-ahead-for-illegal-practice-start/

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.hamilton-lashes-out-at-ridiculous-penalties-as-he-edges-closer-to-race-ban.18GooH0vzscnCcJafWKFtd.html

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

Seems like Mika Salo is leaking these stewarding decisions to the Finnish broadcast (which isn’t part of during some races) before they are being announced.

That would be a huge no-no.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

And now they have removed the penalty points from Hamilton and fined the team €25k instead after listening to the team radio where the team told him it was fine. Would they have even given him time penalties if they had done that before?

 

They didn’t even listen to team radio the first time, and they have a steward leaking info before it’s announced.

 

This is some farcical shit. I miss Charlie.

[Goofyboy 3,156]

That is a monumental screw job by the stewards if so. Two time penalties is the only way to keep Hamilton from winning. Then Charles doesn’t get anything for ending another drivers race?? Judges gonna judge.

[wood 11,103]

4 hours ago, Anton Chigurh said:

Also, pretty big incident in the F2 sprint race today:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://streamable.com/ll90m0

They did not restart and half points were given. Mick finished 3rd. I am not a Michael Schumacher fan whatsoever, but I can’t seem to not root for Mick.
 

 

Damn. Ghiotto alive after that?

[wood 11,103]

3 hours ago, PittsburghTiger said:

What do you all make of Hamilton these races, today & Italy, not being able to cut into the time of the leaders?

https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-russian-grand-prix-team-radio-reveals-mercedes-gave-lewis-hamilton-the-go-ahead-for-illegal-practice-start/

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.hamilton-lashes-out-at-ridiculous-penalties-as-he-edges-closer-to-race-ban.18GooH0vzscnCcJafWKFtd.html

Yeah I thought it was interesting that he couldn't really make ground on Max or VB. I also have to wonder if, given the tire disadvantage, he would have lost to VB anyway today without the penalty - assuming Merc would have let VB race him. 

[wood 11,103]

2 hours ago, Anton Chigurh said:

And now they have removed the penalty points from Hamilton and fined the team €25k instead after listening to the team radio where the team told him it was fine. Would they have even given him time penalties if they had done that before?

 

They didn’t even listen to team radio the first time, and they have a steward leaking info before it’s announced.

 

This is some farcical shit. I miss Charlie.

The team comms shouldn't matter in terms of the race penalty, because the infractions were made, regardless of who was at fault. The car & team were penalized along with the driver. The license points are different, because they apply only to the driver, so I can see the logic of penalizing the car and then not giving the driver points on their licvense, because he was told by the team it was ok.

That said, these guys get paid a LOT of money to do this job, and these rules and event notes are made available to all of them. They are also discussed in the driver's meetings. These drivers (not just Lewis) making the excuse that they weren't aware of this or that, so they shouldn't be penalized ... is lame nonsense.

[Huckleberry 32,684]

3 hours ago, Anton Chigurh said:

And now they have removed the penalty points from Hamilton and fined the team €25k instead after listening to the team radio where the team told him it was fine. Would they have even given him time penalties if they had done that before?

 

They didn’t even listen to team radio the first time, and they have a steward leaking info before it’s announced.

 

This is some farcical shit. I miss Charlie.

Uh, why wouldn't he still get the penalties? Explain the logic. 

It's still against the rules and if you don't penalize Mercedes and Hamilton during the race then the rule means nothing and in the next race every team will tell every driver things are okay to avoid time penalties. 25K? They don't give a shit about that. 

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

Uh, why wouldn't he still get the penalties? Explain the logic. 
It's still against the rules and if you don't penalize Mercedes and Hamilton during the race then the rule means nothing and in the next race every team will tell every driver things are okay to avoid time penalties. 25K? They don't give a shit about that. 

It was mostly a rhetorical question. However, drivers aren’t penalized for unsafe releases either.

Lance Stroll also broke a new rule today by removing his helmet/gloves/unzipping his race suit after getting out of his car today. I don’t really care that he did that, but that was also in the race directors note. The problem is that everything is arbitrary.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

After going back and reading the event notes, Mercedes actually has a very good argument here.

Here is the most recent version of the event notes:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_6_-_2020_russian_grand_prix_-_race_directors_event_notes_version_2_1.pdf

Section 19 states:

19) Practice starts

19.1 Practice starts may only be carried out on the right-hand side after the pit exit lights and, for the avoidance of doubt, this includes any time the pit exit is open for the race.

Drivers must leave adequate room on their left for another driver to pass.

19.2 For reasons of safety and sporting equity, cars may not stop in the fast lane at any time the pit exit is open without a justifiable reason (a practice start is not considered a justifiable reason).

Now, the definition of the pit lane and the fast lane can be seen on page 11.



The pit exit reaches out to Safety Car line 2. Hamilton was doing the practice starts in this area:




The fast lane (which you cannot stop in) is shown as the main area of the pit lane between the garages (the part where the pit lane speed limit is enforced).

So, the rule states that Practice starts may only be carried out on the right-hand side after the pit exit lights and, for the avoidance of doubt, this includes any time the pit exit is open for the race.

Summarizing, Hamilton:

Was on the right hand side after pit exit lights? Check.

Left adequate room on their left for another driver to pass? Check.

Not stopped in area defined as fast lane? Check.

Still in the defined pit exit area? Check.

The decisions state that those instructions weren’t followed. I struggle to see which ones weren’t followed.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_54_-_2020_russian_grand_prix_-_replacement_for_document_46_-_offence_-_car_44_-_1st_practice_start.pdf

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_55_-_2020_russian_grand_prix_-_replacement_for_document_47_-_offence_-_car_44_-_2nd_practice_start.pdf


They just make the shit up as they go half the time, and poorly define their own written rules and definitions.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

It was mostly a rhetorical question. However, drivers aren’t penalized for unsafe releases either.

Lance Stroll also broke a new rule today by removing his helmet/gloves/unzipping his race suit after getting out of his car today. I don’t really care that he did that, but that was also in the race directors note. The problem is that everything is arbitrary.

Correction here. I meant to say drivers used to not get penalized for unsafe releases, the team was simply fined. It is typically a 5 second penalty these days.

You are right that teams didn’t care about that until time penalties started being applied.

[wood 11,103]

Lewis did the starts well past the end of the slow lane, almost at the end of the pit lane exit, so he was in the fast lane.

I agree re: the inconsistent nature of enforcement in F1, but this penalty was completely justified imho.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

Lewis did the starts well past the end of the slow lane, almost at the end of the pit lane exit, so he was in the fast lane.
I agree re: the inconsistent nature of enforcement in F1, but this penalty was completely justified imho.

Nope. The fast lane is the main lane of travel that is measured for pit lane speed in the pit lane area itself. It separates where the actual pit work is done and where the cars travel down the pit lane. Pit entry and pit exit are their own defined areas.

From the sporting regs:

28.1 The section of track between the first safety car line and the beginning of the pit lane will be
designated the “pit entry”.

28.2 The section of track between the end of the pit lane and the second safety car line will be designated the “pit exit”.

28.3 At no time may a car be reversed in the pit lane under its own power.

28.4 The pit lane will be divided into two lanes, the lane closest to the pit wall will be designated the "fast lane" and may be no more than 3.5 metres wide, the lane closest to the garages will be designated the "inner lane".
Other than when cars are at the end of the pit lane under Articles 36.2 and 41, the inner lane is the only area where any work can be carried out on a car. However, no work may be carried out in the fast lane if it is likely to hinder other cars attempting to leave the pit lane.

[wood 11,103]

I'm not sure how you think that helps your case. Lewis was well past the normal area for doing practice starts - the end of the slow lane (at the end of the pit lane, where the lanes blend and pit exit starts). He was way out around the curve, where pit exit blends with the track. There is no slow  lane out there. Practice starts are supposed to be done where you're out of the way cars moving fast. Where he was, there is no place to be out of the way, and he was on the exit of a blind curve. And that's why we never see people doing practice starts out there. Thus the penalties.

Edited September 27, 2020 by wood

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

I know where he was. I literally posted all of the information.

 

The problem is that Masi is not good/consistent at writing his event notes. He unintentionally allowed this to happen by not actually defining the practice start area outside of “right hand side after pit exit lights” and the other items I mentioned above. Then, the stewards assumed that a clearly defined area/rule was broken (lazy stewarding is another issue altogether).

 

I do agree with you that it was the intent of Masi to not allow them where Lewis did them, but that’s not how he wrote it, which is why Toto and Merc had a good argument. That’s all. Kind of a spirit of the law vs letter of the law thing, which we are all too familiar with in F1.

[wood 11,103]

I mean ... maybe he didn't write it explicitly enough for Lewis or the team, but everyone else seems to get the gist. And we don't know what was said in the driver meeting. I get what you're saying about rules that are too vague in F1 (sometimes seemingly intentionally so). 

But ... I can see where Masi could just come right back and say that "right-hand side" means the right lane, and since there's no right lane where Lewis was, then he was in violation. To me, it shouldn't have to be written like legalese for everyone to come to a common understanding of what's expected of them. And then the bit in the bold leaves a lot of room for discretion by the stewards.

Quote

19.1 Practice starts may only be carried out on the right-hand side after the pit exit lights and, for the avoidance of doubt, this includes any time the pit exit is open for the race.

Drivers must leave adequate room on their left for another driver to pass.

I can't figure what Merc were hoping to gain by doing the starts out there in a clearly unsafe area well away from the customary area.

If there isn't one already, there should be a catchall rule that just says if you do something procedurally stupid that endangers yourself or others, you will be subject to penalty at the discretion of the stewards. It's pretty obvious that's not a good place to do practice starts, and that would easily have fallen under such a rule - which may exist afaik, as such rules do exist in most organizations. And really, that bold bit accomplishes the same thing in this instance. I don't think Merc can reasonably make the case that Lewis left passing room on the left side of the lane where he was. I doubt that would even be possible where he was. That seems to be the part of the rule that doomed him to the penalty.

[wood 11,103]

Hamilton claims FIA trying to stop him with penalty points

https://racer.com/2020/09/27/hamilton-claims-fia-trying-to-stop-him-with-penalty-points/

Quote

“Of course it is (too harsh), and it is to be expected,” Hamilton said. “They are trying to stop me.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by wood

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

Merc definitely need to shore up their strategy department. They have dropped the ball on multiple occasions. Their wherewithal of “can we do this or not” is very, very lacking.

[C-Man 26,991]

Wrong thread

[PittsburghTiger 6,136]

https://www.autoweek.com/racing/formula-1/a34172937/nothing-personal-as-ferrari-blocked-mercedes-toto-wolff-from-becoming-f1-boss/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_aut&utm_medium=email&date=092820&utm_campaign=nl21636688&utm_term=AUT_Autoweek_Racing_Daily_Newsletter_Subscribers

 

"Everyone knows that I had preliminary discussions with Greg Maffei, the CEO of Liberty Media, but it didn't go beyond that," the Mercedes F1 team principal Wollf said at Sochi, site of Sunday's F1 Russian Grand Prix. "Nothing would have come of it anyway. Ferrari didn't like it."

Ferrari team principal Mattia Binotto doesn't even deny that he vetoed the candidature of Wolff as F1 boss.

"It is one of Ferrari's rights to veto the succession to the role of CEO of F1," he told Ski Italia at Sochi. "Our choice regarding Toto was not personal, as I believe that like Stefano he could have been a good person for the role. But we did not find it correct that a personality directly involved in Formula 1 today was nominated. Stefano represents a much more neutral person who has been outside of this environment for many years now.

"Even (Red Bull team principal Christian) Horner would not have been correct, not even Mattia Binotto," he smiled. "Simply because of our involvement in F1 today."

 

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

Teflon Charlie strikes again! (I’m liking that nickname)

https://www.motorlat.com/notas/f1/17311/f1-leclerc-s-illegal-practice-start-case-in-belgium-why-did-it-fall-into-oblivion

Good job, FIA. Consistency!

Also note how the race notes in this instance were more specific than for Sochi. Mugello was the same way.

[PittsburghTiger 6,136]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-ferrari-juniors-mick-schumacher-and-callum-ilott-to-make-f1-weekend.4jpo4HktVAxStHlhKQ2R46.html

Schumacher’s fellow FDA drivers Callum Ilott and Robert Shwartzman will also make their Grand Prix weekend debuts this year, with Ilott driving Haas’s car in FP1 at the Nurburgring, while Shwartzman will get his chance at the final Friday of the 2020 championship in Abu Dhabi.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

Yeah, it is looking increasingly likely that those two will both be on the grid next year.

Watching F2 has been great to see these guys before they come up to the big leagues.

Tsunoda still has a chance, too, but it depends on what happens with that second Red Bull seat.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

[ConferenceRoom 6,123]

Honda is fucking off. 

https://global.honda/newsroom/news/2020/c201002aeng.html

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

Holy shit!

[ConferenceRoom 6,123]

Obviously not great news for the sport. Please tell me we're not headed for an electric Formula 1.

[elfenix 34,167]

Hydrogen

[ConferenceRoom 6,123]

That sounds even worse. Give me gas guzzlers. 

[Dutch 4,464]

So that’s surprising. Seems Red Bull’s engine options are: 

1. Mercedes. Would Merc sell to one of their two real competitors?

2. Ferrari. See above.

3. Renault, who RB told “k thx but no thx bye” two years ago.

4. Construct their own (which they said in the past isn’t feasible).

Quite the pickle for RB. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Dutch

[wood 11,103]

Wonder what Red Bull will do.

[wood 11,103]

... and will Honda stay in IndyCar?

[wood 11,103]

2 hours ago, elfenix said:

Hydrogen

Yeah, interesting that they list FCV first in their press release.

[elfenix 34,167]

20 minutes ago, wood said:

... and will Honda stay in IndyCar?

they've had a lot more success in indycar

[elfenix 34,167]

32 minutes ago, Dutch said:

So that’s surprising. Seems Red Bull’s engine options are: 

1. Mercedes. Would Merc sell to one of their two real competitors?

2. Ferrari. See above.

3. Renault, who RB told “k thx but no thx bye” two years ago.

4. Construct their own (which they said in the past isn’t feasible).

Quite the pickle for RB. 

cozza, maybe?  did the MGU-H standardization ever get worked out?

[wood 11,103]

5 minutes ago, elfenix said:

cozza, maybe?  did the MGU-H standardization ever get worked out?

Cosworth? No. Cosworth ain't walkin' through that door. Neither is any other manufacturer.

This PU formula was a massive mistake for F1.

Edited October 2, 2020 by wood

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

RB will end up back with Renault. They will be forced to supply them as they have no customer teams after this year, and the engine supplier with the fewest customers must supply to a team if said team has no engine deal.

[wood 11,103]

6 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

RB will end up back with Renault. They will be forced to supply them as they have no customer teams after this year, and the engine supplier with the fewest customers must supply to a team if said team has no engine deal.

Yeah that's what I figure, too. Some people are saying Aston Martin, but that will just be a re-badged Merc, right? Doesn't seem like that would fit within the rules.

[Hawndoh 2,379]

They need to entice a new supplier big time. Full court press them.

Ford, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Toyota, Nissan even. They all participate in various motorsport. One of them needs to get recruited.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

I wish Toyota would come back. Beating nobody in LMP1 is lame.

[52-80 19,066]

Yamaha motor ?

[utee94 15,742]

1 hour ago, wood said:

Cosworth? No. Cosworth ain't walkin' through that door. Neither is any other manufacturer.

This PU formula was a massive mistake for F1.

Are you talking about current formula, or the one starting in 2022? (I don't even know what the changes are going to be, probably a good time for me to go revisit that)

 

 

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

Are you talking about current formula, or the one starting in 2022? (I don't even know what the changes are going to be, probably a good time for me to go revisit that)
 
 

Engine regs are the same with frozen in-season development like they have now.

[utee94 15,742]

6 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

Engine regs are the same with frozen in-season development like they have now.

For some reason I thought they were changing engine regs in 2022 (was supposed to be 2021 but the coronas changed that).

If not, then nobody but Mercedes has any incentive to stay at all.  Ferrari will, because what else would they do, but I'd bail too if I were Honda or Renault.  What a mess this has become.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

The other regulations are changing a lot.

 

Totally different aero/tires/dimensions etc.

 

They looked into removing the MGU-H on the power units, but no new engine manufacturers showed interest, so they left it the same since it’s already developed.

[wood 11,103]

24 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Are you talking about current formula, or the one starting in 2022? (I don't even know what the changes are going to be, probably a good time for me to go revisit that)

The engines aren't set to change until 2026, and what form that will take has not yet been decided, but talks have started up. I'm guessing Honda's departure might affect how that looks...

The change in 2022 is all about the cars, not the PUs.

[wood 11,103]

46 minutes ago, Hawndoh said:

They need to entice a new supplier big time. Full court press them.

Ford, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Toyota, Nissan even. They all participate in various motorsport. One of them needs to get recruited.

Nobody's coming to F1 until at least 2026, and only then if there's a sane PU formula. What F1 does with their next PU formula will be critical. Oh, and Nissan is already effectively in F1 because of its Renault partnership.

Edited October 2, 2020 by wood

[wood 11,103]

[wood 11,103]

Well, that escalated quickly... It is gpblog, but who knows.

'Volkswagen is ready to enter F1 as a partner of Red Bull' https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/69526/-volkswagen-is-ready-to-enter-f1-as-a-partner-of-red-bull-.html

[utee94 15,742]

47 minutes ago, wood said:

The engines aren't set to change until 2026, and what form that will take has not yet been decided, but talks have started up. I'm guessing Honda's departure might affect how that looks...

The change in 2022 is all about the cars, not the PUs.

Ah, well that's disappointing.  

Also, no thanks to a spec ICE.  I think a reasonable PU formula can be derived, that doesn't force us all the way to spec.