They mighta found mass graves from the Tulsa race riots

[msbesq 388]

Absolutely not a race riot, but a mass murder. 

[demos 3019]

I learned about the Slocum Massacre a few years ago when I found this book:



Definitely worth reading.

[BurdineBandit 820]

Related: I had a high school History teacher at a large school in Houston that I'm sure got parent complaints every year that she taught (got one from my best friend's parents, and we're Mexican-American) because she integrated Black history into her semester. I think the complaints started because she would take a day and focus on lynching and show us the graphic details. Of course it was the one time parents wished that she would teach according to the book, or test, or whatever shitty argument they could make. I had a feeling at 16 that learning it was more important than their arguments bc they were probably just ignoring their internal racism anyway, but the older I get the more I realize how important teachers like that are. I learned about the massacre of "Black Wall Street" early. And was willing to listen and absorb it because I learned about the Texas Rangers' murderous activities from folklore passed down to my dad (who grew up in Kingsville, near ground zero). Now this stuff is coming out into the public and it reaffirms that we learn such a bullshit history as children/teenagers. Indoctrination.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13568]

Read a real bs story about Oklahoma history. When they were looking to become a state, they specifically were race neutral in their constitution or any paperwork. They were worried Prez T. Roosevelt would lead and effort to reject them if they discussed segregation or any Jim Crow standards.  Within 3 weeks of being admitted, their first law was to take away rights from African Americans.

many of our great and great-great grandfathers were POS.

[Jkwellborn 6898]

I should add, I'm not blameless here. I grew up in a suburb that was built upon land once owned by African American farmers who got bought out by developers. I can hope that the farmers received a fair price for the land, but to be honest I don't know if they owned it or were sharecropping. Looking back, though, I can see why it would have been an African American area, the land was rocky and the soil was poor. The better land was not available to them any  more than the schools or other white institutions were.

What the hell makes you think you shoulder any of the blame for this?

[Helobious 9516]

Texas (and the rest of America) is far from a racial utopia. Doesn’t change the fact that Oklahoma really sucks. 

[Godzillatron 293]

It's also no coincidence that many of these massacres occurred in the years following World War I when African American soldiers were returning from Europe where they'd been treated relatively well (or better than the US) and began asking for more equal treatment in America. Of course, this scared the shit out of many Whites and caused a horrible backlash that lead to these "riots" as well as the resurgence of the Klan during the 1920s.

This combined with a recession in the oil field following the end of the war led to a lot of white men out of work in Tulsa and jealous of the prosperity of Greenwood.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RomaVicta 30149]

A glimpse of history shows the worn out justification that was used: black man accused of harming a white woman. You almost have to believe that those excuses are created after the fact or were used to start an action everybody wanted to take anyway they could.

In thinking about it, I'm reminded again about how Texas A&M is like a time capsule of bad things glorified as good things. All of the riots they started and violence they caused  in other ways is always justified by a defense of innocence or the weak. 

I didn't know about this massacre or the Slocum massacre.

It makes me sick that it happened.

It makes me sad to read about it.

It clarifies Black rage. This also makes clear why seeking out Black History actually has more of a purpose than I allowed for. My ignorance must support an African American's sense that nobody gives a fuck about what makes generations of American Black people angry and, necessarily, afraid. 

I've been embarrassed as a white man that Blacks are treated different in so many subtle and unsubtle ways. Seeing this kind of history covered up or, worse, justified in any way, allows me an inkling of what is behind the way some black Americans feel when when they receive a different look or the hint of suspicion. 

They hanged us, shot us, called out the National Guard and bombed us on a city street. 

People are alive today who have heard the stories first hand from the survivors. How stunning that the story would be doubted (I would have doubted it) if related outside of a group of people of color.

It happened more than once, you know.

No, I didn't. I'm pretty ashamed of that. I'm ashamed the white people making decisions decided to hide it from my white suburban boy ears. I could have used the insight. I'm tolerant of anybody who doesn't hurt anyone else. I could have been more empathetic had I known these things.

At least we could count on a comic book to preserve and speak important history where scholarship and educational decision makers have failed us.

I don't like living in Idiot World. I can't really very well imagine what it's like for people living in Scary Violent Racist Idiot World.

Edit: Oh, almost forgot:

Edited December 21, 2019 by RomaVicta

[Brisketexan 105701]

A glimpse of history shows the worn out justification that was used: black man accused of harming a white woman. You almost have to believe that those excuses are created after the fact or were used to start an action everybody wanted to take anyway they could.
In thinking about it, I'm reminded again about how Texas A&M is like a time capsule of bad things glorified as good things. All of the riots they started and violence they caused  in other ways is always justified by a defense of innocence or the weak. 
I didn't know about this massacre or the Slocum massacre.
It makes me sick that it happened.
It makes me sad to read about it.
It clarifies Black rage. This also makes clear why seeking out Black History actually has more of a purpose than I allowed for. My ignorance must support an African American's sense that nobody gives a fuck about what makes generations of American Black people angry and, necessarily, afraid. 
I've been embarrassed as a white man that Blacks are treated different in so many subtle and unsubtle ways. Seeing this kind of history covered up or, worse, justified in any way, allows me an inkling of what is behind the way some black Americans feel when when they receive a different look or the hint of suspicion. 
They hanged us, shot us, called out the National Guard and bombed us on a city street. 
People are alive today who have heard the stories first hand from the survivors. How stunning that the story would be doubted (I would have doubted it) if related outside of a group of people of color.
It happened more than once, you know.
No, I didn't. I'm pretty ashamed of that. I'm ashamed the white people making decisions decided to hide it from my white suburban boy ears. I could have used the insight. I'm tolerant of anybody who doesn't hurt anyone else. I could have been more empathetic had I known these things.
At least we could count on a comic book to preserve and speak important history where scholarship and educational decision makers have failed us.
I don't like living in Idiot World. I can't really very well imagine what it's like for people living in Scary Violent Racist Idiot World.
Edit: Oh, almost forgot:

But, you know, blacks people should just get over it, it’s all cool now....say people who live on a little plot of land their grandparents owned...say people who have lived in the same town safely for generations....etc etc.

Until we fully acknowledge and admit our sins, we will never get past them. And that’s not going to happen. We’re going to keep that poison in our body politic forever, because we’re too cowardly to own it and puke it out.

[RollLeft 5053]

How does one fully acknowledge and what is this "we" shit?  I'm for it happening so everyone can move on.  

[Junior Miller 1502]

Other than math and some of the sciences you're basically just indoctrinated with cultural programming bullshit at school. America's softer version of the Hitler Youth. It's a damn shame real history is so much more horrible than what you're taught. 

[Brisketexan 105701]

How does one fully acknowledge and what is this "we" shit?  I'm for it happening so everyone can move on.  

I am where I am in life in part - for better or for worse - because of my parents and grandparents and great grandparents circumstances. That’s true for all of us. For many of us, that’s a pretty favorable position. For others, it’s unfavorable - the grandson of sharecroppers is less likely to be successful than the grandson of a doctor.

And for that matter, generations of institutionalized racism still manifest themselves in everyday actions (law enforcement is an easy example).

Black people got fucked in this country. By slavery. By Jim Crow. By open murder and genocide. By brutality and cruelty in the civil rights era. By a legal and law enforcement system that still carries many markers of that history, and behaves that way. Telling them “hey, it’s all cool now, what are you bitching about” is jaw-droppingly awful.

There are literally people alive right now who are not as well off as they would have been had their successful and prosperous grandparents not been violently run off of their property in Tulsa that day. And Tulsa is not an isolated incident.

If WE ever say words like this is MY country, WE won WWII, etc....then we also own this shame. We are a nation, and we are all in this together.

[RollLeft 5053]

Pharaoh and the other blacks enslaved the Jews for 400 years in Egypt.  Are we to still hold that against all the blacks?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13568]

There are still many neighborhoods with deed restrictions that state you can only sell property to white people. They’re not enforceable and they’re fully ignored but they exist.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

15 hours ago, Jkwellborn said:

What the hell makes you think you shoulder any of the blame for this?

Perhaps you might tell me to what you refer when you say, 'this' and I can go from there? The massacre in the Greenwood area of north Tulsa as far as I know did not involve any of my ancestors. However, the blame to which I was referring is my ignorance and rather blase concern growing up toward the history of my community and why it was structured the way it was. South Tulsa developed fairly rapidly during the early 70s partially due to the ORU campus being opened and also as white flight from the Tulsa Public Schools increased. I think Jenks and Union schools might have gone from 2-3 A in the 70s to 5a by the 80's. Anyway, there was a little farming community in the area, an all black town that was built around freedman's allotments from when the Creek tribe freed their slaves. It is probably something that is talked about more now, but growing up, the remnants of the community were all around-the farm structures, horse pastures, one of the old gas stations, the church, etc and nobody ever talked about it. I think they talk about it in the schools now, but back then, it was as if it never existed. Perhaps if it had incorporated, it would not have been so easy to replace it, but I don't know what barriers were in place for that. I didn't know any of the history until many years later after I had left home.

 

[Parliament 14413]

Guys, go start a Cloak Room thread for all your shitbagging.

[RollLeft 5053]

9 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

There are still many neighborhoods with deed restrictions that state you can only sell property to white people. They’re not enforceable and they’re fully ignored but they exist.

Yes, blatant and veiled racism should be shunned and eradicated.  I'm for that.  Also if you are person who has directly supported racists views fuck you.  My only question is what does the average person have to do with the sins of idiot's of the past.  How far do we go back?  Furthermore, does it help to tell a young black person that they are victims of the past?  If they have been discriminated directly today I get it but I think it perpetuates a victim mentality that serves no one to say they are owed an apology.  The true victims are those who were directly and or cruelly victimized.   Does that stll exist today, sure to some but fuck those racists fucks.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13568]

You know there is no answer to how far we go back to recognize people were discriminated.  I guarantee there are people on this board that received benefits especially in education that weren’t held back from people of color.  Or non-white people were legally not allowed to emigrate to the US until ~50 years ago. At least the numbers were kept at extremely small compared with Europeans.

no one is asking you to give away half of your wealth or future income but you’re barely willing to acknowledge it happen.   

[Pato del Muerto 52975]

51 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

Pharaoh and the other blacks enslaved the Jews for 400 years in Egypt.  Are we to still hold that against all the blacks?

This post seems to insinuate that the bad treatment of blacks people in America ceased a long time ago. When in fact we had to have a constitutional amendment 60 years ago about it, and it’s not like that put the issue to bed. 

[Brisketexan 105701]

You know there is no answer to how far we go back to recognize people were discriminated.  I guarantee there are people on this board that received benefits especially in education that weren’t held back from people of color.  Or non-white people were legally not allowed to emigrate to the US until ~50 years ago. At least the numbers were kept at extremely small compared with Europeans.
no one is asking you to give away half of your wealth or future income but you’re barely willing to acknowledge it happen.   

This. There’s no path to peace and healing in any relationship - and this country and society is absolutely a collective relationship - without acknowledging the pain caused in THIS relationship.

That’s where it has to start. It’s not about self-flagellation, or punishment, or any of that. It’s about opening our eyes wide, seeing these truths (like Tulsa), and not looking away. Seeing what they did. And having EMPATHY for our fellow Americans, who suffered greatly at the hand of other Americans. Acknowledgment. Empathy. That’s how you begin to build a truly successful relationship and community. It’s basic humanity.

[RomaVicta 30149]

16 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Guys, go start a Cloak Room thread for all your shitbagging.

I'm not sure what you mean by shitbagging.

I also don't see this as political. What political persuasion are you associating with which instances of what you call shitbagging?

[RomaVicta 30149]

2 hours ago, RollLeft said:

Yes, blatant and veiled racism should be shunned and eradicated.  I'm for that.  Also if you are person who has directly supported racists views fuck you.  My only question is what does the average person have to do with the sins of idiot's of the past.  How far do we go back?  Furthermore, does it help to tell a young black person that they are victims of the past?  If they have been discriminated directly today I get it but I think it perpetuates a victim mentality that serves no one to say they are owed an apology.  The true victims are those who were directly and or cruelly victimized.   Does that stll exist today, sure to some but fuck those racists fucks.  

There are sentiments in your posts that are not alien to me. I am certainly wary of sanctifying victimhood. You seem to want to look at other people and imagine them as yourself. That's generally a good way to go through life. 

The Black experience in America is unique. Not good unique. Even having recognized this throughout my life, these new historical facts impact my outlook. Black paranoia had appeared to be a bit overblown to me at different times. I only see the Black perspective through news usually as described by non-Blacks and through art. The most expressive such art has been stand up comedy. Pryor, Rock, and Chapelle have been the most brilliant at bringing those unique perspectives to light for me.

Cops are shooting Blacks, we jail them for crimes white men get probation for, and, it turns out, we were organizing massacres of them long after I would have thought that word had left the American vernacular. Am I to blame? No. The thing is that it's part of the history of my country. My country has the unique habit of proclaiming itself the greatest place in the world. Constant complacence and self-congratulation are about as unhealthy as it gets for any organization.

So, yea, I want to know this stuff so I can get a better fix of what informs the wariness of people of color. There may be ways subtle or unsubtle that I can ease that wariness in my little world and make everything as inclusive as I can. 

These stories reinforce my thought that Martin Luther King may be the most important American of the Twentieth Century. He lived among people who had witnessed these slaughters. He managed to head off a wholesale race war in this country.  He save his outnumbered people from massive killing and expulsion. He saved the country from a horrible dishonor and criminal blemish.

And, of course, somebody kills him.

[TwiceHorn 31705]

I have given a lot of thought to WHY the black experience in America has been so uniquely awful.  It raises the specter of a malevolant form of American exceptionalism.  I tend to doubt American exceptionalism in both positive and negative senses.  I don't think we're markedly better than most other societies, but nor are we markedly worse.

The answer, I believe, is that nowhere on earth were more African Americans in closer proximity  to caucasians or non-African-Americans than in the good ol USA.  And. compounding it, the proximity was between slaves, and then former slaves, and regular white folks who were their captors.

On New Years Day 1863, millions of blacks went from subjugated slaves to, legally at least, free persons.  Yet not a single other thing about their situation changed.  Even after the War, when the legality of their freedom gained more "teeth," not a damn thing changed:  they were stuck right spang in the middle of people who kept them in irons and treated them as subhuman.

That, folks, is a toxic brew, wherever it occurs, in America, Siberia, Mongolia, Madagascar, or Tierra Del Fuego.

In contrast, when African slaves were freed by other nations, they resided almost entirely in colonies and were, in fact, the majority wherever they were.  That situation is far more tractable than what happened here.

It was not really feasible, and raises its own issues, but it would have been far preferable to somehow extricate the former slaves from their proximity to their former masters.  Given human nature, that is just a bad combination.

[TwiceHorn 31705]

29 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

There are sentiments in your posts that are not alien to me. I am certainly wary of sanctifying victimhood. You seem to want to look at other people and imagine them as yourself. That's generally a good way to go through life. 

The Black experience in America is unique. Not good unique. Even having recognized this throughout my life, these new historical facts impact my outlook. Black paranoia had appeared to be a bit overblown to me at different times. I only see the Black perspective through news usually as described by non-Blacks and through art. The most expressive such art has been stand up comedy. Pryor, Rock, and Chapelle have been the most brilliant at bringing those unique perspectives to light for me.

Cops are shooting Blacks, we jail them for crimes white men get probation for, and, it turns out, we were organizing massacres of them long after I would have thought that word had left the American vernacular. Am I to blame? No. The thing is that it's part of the history of my country. My country has the unique habit of proclaiming itself the greatest place in the world. Constant complacence and self-congratulation are about as unhealthy as it gets for any organization.

So, yea, I want to know this stuff so I can get a better fix of what informs the wariness of people of color. There may be ways subtle or unsubtle that I can ease that wariness in my little world and make everything as inclusive as I can. 

These stories reinforce my thought that Martin Luther King may be the most important American of the Twentieth Century. He lived among people who had witnessed these slaughters. He managed to head off a wholesale race war in this country.  He save his outnumbered people from massive killing and expulsion. He saved the country from a horrible dishonor and criminal blemish.

And, of course, somebody kills him.

Great post.  

[tx 3 putt 78010]

will descendants that can prove a dna link be able to after those involved in the court ?

[Michael Knight 13094]

4 hours ago, RollLeft said:

Pharaoh and the other blacks enslaved the Jews for 400 years in Egypt.  Are we to still hold that against all the blacks?

There we go,  let it all out.  Keep em coming 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13597]

Here's a link to the Smithsonian podcast discussing the "riots" I think someone mentioned upthread, including first hand accounts. As has been pointed out, this was more a massacre, or as described here, an American pogrom. 

 

https://play.google.com/music/m/Dc67nn2k4bojc4dgy6eesrami6u?t=Confronting_the_Past_-_Sidedoor

[WhatTheBuck 28852]

20 hours ago, RollLeft said:

Pharaoh and the other blacks enslaved the Jews for 400 years in Egypt.

No they didn't. 

Also, "the other blacks" sounds extremely racist. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by WhatTheBuck

[RollLeft 5053]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No they didn't. 

Also, "the other blacks" sounds extremely racist. 

Oh really?  Tell me more.  On both accounts Black History Month thinks you sound white.  

It's interesting to hear, especially over the last decade, people talk about the plight of black people as if they have only had plight.  It is very true in this country but black people have been kings and pharaohs just as long as they have been slaves and i simply refuse to believe that black people in this country, today, don't have most of the same opportunities as anyone else.  Not to say there isn't work to be done still.

I think Brisket makes good points about recognizing past wrongs, my only question is how does one do that adequately without running the risk of perpetuating a victim mentality upon a new generation of young blacks who more often than are not victims.  Quite the opposite they are just as likely to be at every part of the successful spectrum of society. 

So in a thread about race i simply made a counterpoint that the issue is complex and not so simple.  To a degree i understand his use of we and can agree.  Here is some support of his point from another angle.      

https://www.theroot.com/did-black-people-own-slaves-1790895436

 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by RollLeft

[WhatTheBuck 28852]

27 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

Oh really?  Tell me more.  On both accounts Black History Month thinks you sound white.  

It's interesting to hear, especially over the last decade, people talk about the plight of black people as if they have only had plight.  It is very true in this country but black people have been kings and pharaohs just as long as they have been slaves and i simply refuse to believe that black people in this country, today, don't have most of the same opportunities as anyone else.  Not to say there isn't work to be done still.

I think Brisket makes good points about recognizing past wrongs, my only question is how does one do that adequately without running the risk of perpetuating a victim mentality upon a new generation of young blacks who more often than are not victims.  Quite the opposite they are just as likely to be at every part of the successful spectrum of society. 

So in a thread about race i simply made a counterpoint that the issue is complex and not so simple.  To a degree i understand his use of we and can agree.  Here is some support of his point from another angle.      

https://www.theroot.com/did-black-people-own-slaves-1790895436

You speak for Black History Month?

[RollLeft 5053]

On 12/18/2019 at 11:20 AM, BurdineBandit said:

Related: I had a high school History teacher at a large school in Houston that I'm sure got parent complaints every year that she taught (got one from my best friend's parents, and we're Mexican-American) because she integrated Black history into her semester. I think the complaints started because she would take a day and focus on lynching and show us the graphic details. Of course it was the one time parents wished that she would teach according to the book, or test, or whatever shitty argument they could make. I had a feeling at 16 that learning it was more important than their arguments bc they were probably just ignoring their internal racism anyway, but the older I get the more I realize how important teachers like that are. I learned about the massacre of "Black Wall Street" early. And was willing to listen and absorb it because I learned about the Texas Rangers' murderous activities from folklore passed down to my dad (who grew up in Kingsville, near ground zero). Now this stuff is coming out into the public and it reaffirms that we learn such a bullshit history as children/teenagers. Indoctrination.

I'm a proponent of a national slavery museum, on the scale of the national holocaust museum.  For me this would accomplish several things.  Yes, a place that never lets us forget but more importantly that this is and should be in our past.  It also would educate those who may not know more of the stories and tragedies such as the one in this thread.  I'd say D.C. and somewhere in the south should be where they should be located.  

[Brisketexan 105701]

I'm a proponent of a national slavery museum, on the scale of the national holocaust museum.  For me this would accomplish several things.  Yes, a place that never lets us forget but more importantly that this is and should be in our past.  It also would educate those who may not know more of the stories and tragedies such as the one in this thread.  I'd say D.C. and somewhere in the south should be where they should be located.  

The sin didn’t end with slavery.

 

Jim Crow.

 

Lynchings. Pogroms murdering and running entire populations out of town.

 

Dogs. Fire hoses. Beatings.

 

Rodney King. James Byrd.

 

10 year prison sentence for a black kid, white kid gets probation.

 

Do we want to “perpetuate a victim mentality?” Of course not. But you know what MUST come first? 1) Confess our national sins. 2) Go and sin no more. Shit, it’s freaking biblical it’s so clear.

 

Here, in THIS nation, we must do those things as they relate to THIS nation. Not what happened to someone in Egypt 1000 years ago, or even in Pakistan or China last year. No, what happened here, by us. That’s all. That’s how we the people - all of us Americans - actually heal and live together. It won’t work right until we do that.

[Larry T. Spider 1747]

It’s amazing how fragile some white people are when it comes to talking about race and the advantages that the average white person has because of race/history. It’s avoidance at first, deflection next, then finally wanting to “deal with it” so that we can move on like it’s taking spankings from a father. You can see it right here in this thread in 2019. There is no moving on. This is who we are as a nation and we will be dealing with it forever.

There is no single conversation, scholarship, or book to read that fixes this. What will help is constant awareness of the past and how it shapes the present. Constant vigilance to interrupt the racism that still persists today, and fight for a better future for ALL kids. If you care, you will have to fight through all denials, deflections, whataboutisms, and claims that you are making everything about race. You also have to know that when you die this isn’t a problem that will be resolved and that it’s a struggle that will go on forever. 

For those of you that seem to be really uncomfortable with these conversations or want to avoid them, I hope you will ask yourself why that is. 

[Player 4578]

I'm a proponent of a national slavery museum, on the scale of the national holocaust museum.  For me this would accomplish several things.  Yes, a place that never lets us forget but more importantly that this is and should be in our past.  It also would educate those who may not know more of the stories and tragedies such as the one in this thread.  I'd say D.C. and somewhere in the south should be where they should be located.  

https://www.freedomcenter.org/


https://www.civilrightsmuseum.org/


https://www.civilandhumanrights.org/

[G650 14305]

Obviously dude hasn't been to the African American History Museum.

[naija 2869]

the kind of ignorance that mistakes itself for brilliance

[Junior Miller 1502]

On 12/22/2019 at 10:16 AM, RollLeft said:

I'm a proponent of a national slavery museum, on the scale of the national holocaust museum.  For me this would accomplish several things.  Yes, a place that never lets us forget but more importantly that this is and should be in our past.  It also would educate those who may not know more of the stories and tragedies such as the one in this thread.  I'd say D.C. and somewhere in the south should be where they should be located.  

Instead of that how about Americans just stop fucking over non whites because of their skin color and culture? Wouldn't be hard to do if the majority of white Americans didn't hold deep rooted racist beliefs. I wonder how all of those got there?

[Junior Miller 1502]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:55 AM, RollLeft said:

Yes, blatant and veiled racism should be shunned and eradicated.  I'm for that.  Also if you are person who has directly supported racists views fuck you.  My only question is what does the average person have to do with the sins of idiot's of the past.  How far do we go back?  Furthermore, does it help to tell a young black person that they are victims of the past?  If they have been discriminated directly today I get it but I think it perpetuates a victim mentality that serves no one to say they are owed an apology.  The true victims are those who were directly and or cruelly victimized.   Does that stll exist today, sure to some but fuck those racists fucks.  

It's not only in the past you fucking idiot. The average American is racist as shit. Just a single example: my wife works in leasing and her two white co-workers, one a leaser and one the manager, frequently discriminate against prospects because of their race. Blatantly against the law but it happens over and over because in effect the law in unenforceable because the burden of proof is intentionally too high. Just last week the manager rejected a prospective resident who was ready to lease "because she's Colombian and Colombians always lie so we can't believe her documents." This sort of thing happens over and over and over millions of times every day. 

Get it through your idiot fucking head that this isn't a past issue like the Holocaust. It's still the most horrendous of problems that happens every day for people trying to find basic things like employment and places to live. Your racist beliefs that everyone today has equal opportunities most likely arises out of your own unwillingness to admit you have advantages from birth you didn't earn and you're the beneficiary of a corrupt system. At least fucking own it you piece of shit. 

[RollLeft 5053]

16 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

It's not only in the past you fucking idiot. The average American is racist as shit. Just a single example: my wife works in leasing and her two white co-workers, one a leaser and one the manager, frequently discriminate against prospects because of their race. Blatantly against the law but it happens over and over because in effect the law in unenforceable because the burden of proof is intentionally too high. Just last week the manager rejected a prospective resident who was ready to lease "because she's Colombian and Colombians always lie so we can't believe her documents." This sort of thing happens over and over and over millions of times every day. 

Get it through your idiot fucking head that this isn't a past issue like the Holocaust. It's still the most horrendous of problems that happens every day for people trying to find basic things like employment and places to live. Your racist beliefs that everyone today has equal opportunities most likely arises out of your own unwillingness to admit you have advantages from birth you didn't earn and you're the beneficiary of a corrupt system. At least fucking own it you piece of shit. 

You're right.  I didn't know any of that.  My life is changed.  Tldr your story.  Merry Christmas!

[Jkwellborn 6898]

So in your mind, is it only Americans or whites or white Americans that are racists? I mean, you’d be wrong as fuck. I know we are taking about American shit that went down stateside in history but don’t get it twisted, white people dont have a trade mark on it.

[Parliament 14413]

Might deserve it's own thread.

https://apnews.com/9955aa0eae258cf8148c372e5d982ed3?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

['stache 21928]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:33 AM, RollLeft said:

Pharaoh and the other blacks enslaved the Jews for 400 years in Egypt.  Are we to still hold that against all the blacks?

 

On 12/21/2019 at 12:27 PM, Pato del Muerto said:

This post seems to insinuate that the bad treatment of blacks people in America ceased a long time ago. When in fact we had to have a constitutional amendment 60 years ago about it, and it’s not like that put the issue to bed. 

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that the remnants of American slavery won't be much of an issue in 3,500 years. But it ended less than 200 years ago, legal segregation lasted until about 50 years ago, and defacto segregation and the effect of generational wealth disparities are still very much felt today, along with many white people who still are either outright racist or harbor implicit biases. There are people alive today that within their lifetimes had to avoid restaurants and public transit because of their skin color, and certainly weren't gaining middle class education and employment opportunities. 

Otherwise, good analogy, lol.

Edited December 26, 2019 by 'stache

[CHIEF 5104]

I was in second grade in the early 70's, in Cleburne, Texas. Cleburne was pretty much segregated by the railroad tracks and the Santa Fe  locomotive shops, a very blue collar town. As a white kid living on the west side, we didn't have any black kids until they started busing them over from the east side of town that year. It was a disaster They were terrified, and rightfully so. It manifest itself through acting out. They were quickly pegged as bad apples. You couldn't hang out with them or you were going to get into trouble as well. Just a fucked up social experiment that set back race relations for at least a decade. I can't imagine driving by your old school to a school all the way across town that you couldn't walk to or from. It made me really feel sorry for them once I was old enough to understand. 

I've come to the conclusion that white people need to stop with ideas to improve race relations, and let black people tell us what will work, starting with equal treatment under the law.

CHIEF

[TwiceHorn 31705]

33 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I was in second grade in the early 70's, in Cleburne, Texas. Cleburne was pretty much segregated by the railroad tracks and the Santa Fe  locomotive shops, a very blue collar town. As a white kid living on the west side, we didn't have any black kids until they started busing them over from the east side of town that year. It was a disaster They were terrified, and rightfully so. It manifest itself through acting out. They were quickly pegged as bad apples. You couldn't hang out with them or you were going to get into trouble as well. Just a fucked up social experiment that set back race relations for at least a decade. I can't imagine driving by your old school to a school all the way across town that you couldn't walk to or from. It made me really feel sorry for them once I was old enough to understand. 

I've come to the conclusion that white people need to stop with ideas to improve race relations, and let black people tell us what will work, starting with equal treatment under the law.

CHIEF

Yeah, kind of a microcosm of the problem of "immediate integration" that I described above in connection with emancipation.

It is, unfortunately, human nature to distrust, at minimum, "other."  I think it's easier to overcome that animal element of our nature in the abstract or by gradual desegregation/integration than by thrusting two groups of "others" together in close proximity.  The problem is compounded when there is a lengthy history of one group of others exercising dominion over the other others.

Countries that haven't had the racial problems of the US (e.g. all European countries and most others) have had the "luxury" of slower (or zero) integration and approaching the problem of wildly different cultures and customs (and appearance for that matter) abstractly.

I'm not sure how the US experience could have been handled in a way that could have minimized these problems.  The apparent alternatives, including yours of letting the minority decide how to integrate, etc., pose their own problems.

It's a real messy problem.

Edited December 27, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Shoxthemonkey 1983]

@CHIEF, I witnessed the same thing in Wichita in 1969. I was in HS but otherwise it was  exactly the same shit with exactly the  same result. I don't have any idea how much involvement the Black leadership had with the policy or implementation but I'm guessing that it was minimal. I'm also not sure what would have been a better way to bring integration about but it seems that the approach chosen by the Wichita BOE was ham-handed.

[mdmost 43332]

Bumping this as 60 Minutes just did a segment on this very topic. Check it out if interested. 

['stache 21928]

Here's a writing from a friend of mine that makes the point that the massacre very likely wan't really about the interaction at the elevator. I can't say I have any extensive research, but what I've been reading is that this is a common theme among the other race massacres of the time. It was usually some event as a pretext to wipe out thriving black neighborhoods 70 years after the abolition of slavery. They didn't know their place. This also is about the time confederate monuments starting going up, as a symbol of knowing their place. 

http://beyondbelief.online/sarah-page-was-no-amy-cooper/?fbclid=IwAR0BDLD8UZywbZeExnKBN7hC-BoqB87B1dCLL-_IuVPd1fGRK3gys6C7tKE

 

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/23/us/tulsa-massacre-excavation-ends-trnd/index.html

Search for a mass grave from the 1921 Tulsa race massacre ends without finding human remains

"At this point, we believe we have fully investigated this anomaly, and unfortunately we have not discovered the evidence of Race Massacre victims we were hoping to find," Stacklebeck said in the city's news release. 

[atomheartbevo 90143]

11 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

"...have not discovered the evidence of Race Massacre victims we were hoping to find..."

That is very fucked up phrasing for a variety of reasons.

I think they were trying to say that the graves are still out there.

I read somewhere on a genealogy site - somebody did some mapping research, and thinks there was a bunch of graves that were deliberately paved over by the city.

[Sawbonz 27795]

On 12/21/2019 at 3:18 PM, TwiceHorn said:

I have given a lot of thought to WHY the black experience in America has been so uniquely awful.  It raises the specter of a malevolant form of American exceptionalism.  I tend to doubt American exceptionalism in both positive and negative senses.  I don't think we're markedly better than most other societies, but nor are we markedly worse.

The answer, I believe, is that nowhere on earth were more African Americans in closer proximity  to caucasians or non-African-Americans than in the good ol USA.  And. compounding it, the proximity was between slaves, and then former slaves, and regular white folks who were their captors.

On New Years Day 1863, millions of blacks went from subjugated slaves to, legally at least, free persons.  Yet not a single other thing about their situation changed.  Even after the War, when the legality of their freedom gained more "teeth," not a damn thing changed:  they were stuck right spang in the middle of people who kept them in irons and treated them as subhuman.

That, folks, is a toxic brew, wherever it occurs, in America, Siberia, Mongolia, Madagascar, or Tierra Del Fuego.

In contrast, when African slaves were freed by other nations, they resided almost entirely in colonies and were, in fact, the majority wherever they were.  That situation is far more tractable than what happened here.

It was not really feasible, and raises its own issues, but it would have been far preferable to somehow extricate the former slaves from their proximity to their former masters.  Given human nature, that is just a bad combination.

It wasn’t just their former masters; it was also the poor white people they suddenly found themselves in direct competition with for jobs and land. If the govt had actually given them their 40 acres and a mule we would be in a much better place now.
 

The sad truth is that although the south seceded to perpetuate slavery, the US fought secession not to end slavery but to preserve the Union. There were slave states that did not secede, and after secession and prior to fort Sumter Congress was ready to amend the constitution to keep slavery in perpetuity in the states it was legal in 1860. Lincoln was even ready to allow them back in the union with slavery right up to the point of the emancipation proclamation (which only freed slaves in the confederacy). They were failed by the government from the moment they were freed, and their descendants still bear that burden.