Craps for beginners:

[Jhawk 1075]

It was a $5 table and I was betting $10 on every bet.  The reason I went after the field is because I didn't want to be pressing the 5/9 and didn't want money spread on the 4/10.  I figured I could lay $10 on the field and cover every number and be done with it.  I hit a few come bets and that was a nice play.  People just weren't hitting points.  I would make about $40-60 on the field every new roller.  Couldn't complain except the next day I was wishing I would have been laying $20 a bet once I was up $200.

[Lurch 5921]

It was a $5 table and I was betting $10 on every bet.  The reason I went after the field is because I didn't want to be pressing the 5/9 and didn't want money spread on the 4/10.  I figured I could lay $10 on the field and cover every number and be done with it.  I hit a few come bets and that was a nice play.  People just weren't hitting points.  I would make about $40-60 on the field every new roller.  Couldn't complain except the next day I was wishing I would have been laying $20 a bet once I was up $200.

 

Were you maxing odds on pass and come bets?

[Jhawk 1075]

9 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

Were you maxing odds on pass and come bets?

I'm not sure because I don't have that down yet.  If I had $10 on the pass/come then once the point or secondary point was established I'd back it up with double the bet ($20).

[Guest]

Just to avoid confusion, as to new players and such...

 

 I would have been laying $20 a bet once I was up $200.

"Laying" a bet means to bet that a 7 comes before that particular number shows.

[Lurch 5921]

I'm not sure because I don't have that down yet.  If I had $10 on the pass/come then once the point or secondary point was established I'd back it up with double the bet ($20).

 

So that’s 2x. If your casino allowed it, you’d typically be able to put 4x on 5&7 and 5x on 6&8. Those odds have 0% house edge, so the more you put on them, the more you’ve effectively diluted the house edge on the combined pass+odds or come+odds. You want to dilute as much as your bankroll will allow, obviously.

 

This is probably the most important strategy to understand at the craps table.

 

[Lurch 5921]

The house edge on a naked pass line bet is 1.41. By putting your 2x on it, you’ve diluted the house edge to .47 (granted, on $30 rather than $10). Had you made it $50 on top of a 6/8, then the house edge would be .24 on a $60 bet.

[Jhawk 1075]

One thing that I don't understand is the house edge.  Sure their edge is .47 on 6/8 but that is just on that bet.  That doesn't change the odds that a 7 rolls on the 2nd turn.  I get hte dilution but if the most common number on the table is rolled before a 6/8 then you're  just plain fucked.  Then the other thought is that if you beat that theory to death then you might as well not gamble at all because you'll never have odds in your favor.

I have played HG and I think it is a good method and a sound method.  I have played my bets the way dealers recommend and that can get uncomfortable when you cover the inside numbers and have odds on your pass line and you have a table that craps out every other roll.  Then you're just dumping the money down the drain $60 at a time.  I think I really like playing the pass and come and having action on the field.  It puts you on numbers with little out on the table, can payoff quick, and guarantees a lot of action.  From a personal standpoint, I thin kI feel most comfortable with that, even if isn't the pound for pound most lucrative way to make money at the table.

That being said, I need to find a cold table and bet the don'ts long enough to understand them because I would like that strategy of being an ass.

[Lurch 5921]

There is no lucrative way to make money in a casino other than owning the casino. (ETA: excluding poker or counting cards)

 

House Edge is the rate at which you choose to be screwed. Some of us like it to be a slow f’ng (with drinks!) whereas others want to piss it away more quickly. The end game is the same, regardless.

 

If you and I agreed to flip a coin for $1, where when I win I get the $2 pot, but when you win you just get $1.95 from the pot and I keep the $.05, that nickel is my House Edge.

 

Yes, the odds of winning/losing the flip is still 50/50, but if we play this long enough, I’m buying a new chandelier for the lobby.

 

 

[henrygandorf 29183]

craps can get a little sticky, because the "right" way to play (however you can minimize the house edge) often leaves you the most exposed to getting hit hard financially.  that's how they get you.  casinos most often have a "3-4-5" odds allowed scale, which is what lurch was describing.  if you're only putting 2x odds on your pass line/come bets because of $$$ reasons, that's fine.  but then when the table gets hot, instead of upping your $10 original bet to $20, just press odds to max.

it drives me nuts to see people make a $10 pass line bet, 2x odds, hit it, then put a $20 pass line bet, the come out is a 12, and they look like you kicked their dog.

as for the house edge, "true odds" etc - remember, the pass line bet, on its own, is not the type of bet you're looking for (same with the come, obviously).  you're making a bet that, on its own, is a pretty shitty bet.  i mean that because you get paid even money, which is 'close' to what a 6/8 would pay, but horrible as it gets farther down the line (even money on a 4/10??).  that initial bet gives you the ability to put down odds, which as lurch said, dilutes the edge, because the odds (on their own) are "true" odds, which means you're getting paid based on the probability of hitting (which obviously is never even money).

to be honest, if you're not playing full odds, especially because of financial restrictions, then you really should be playing the "hg" place bet system.  it minimizes risk, and helps you at a table where guys, "just aren't hitting the point".

[TXSooner518 2432]

Yep, no way to add up -EV bets to make them +EV.  

And also lol at people betting $25 on the pass line and not playing odds or playing 1x odds.  All of your pass line budget, if you're betting it, should be going to maximizing your odds bet size.

It's like seeing someone play a $1 slot without playing max coins, so they aren't jackpot eligible, instead of wagering the same coin-in at $.25 and being eligible.

[Jhawk 1075]

Great info there. The money isn’t really the issue and I can’t think of why I didn’t up all my bets once I had twice the bankroll. I did that multiple times last time I was out and won $1400 (was laying $25 a bet on a $5 table). It sounds like I should adjust my betting if I’m going to play the pass/come and if that comes out a favorable number than play 5x on it. If it isn’t favorable then increase my place bets accordingly and maybe lay off the pass bet if the point is a 10/4. Am I hearing that right?

[Lurch 5921]

Odds are paid true on all of the numbers, so no reason to put odds on 5-9 but bail on 4/10. Note, you usually can only put 3x on 4/10 and 4x on 5/9.

[Jhawk 1075]

The reason I would bail on the 4/10 would be strictly because of the likelihood of a 4/10 point being made after the 4/10 point being established. Why lay another $25 on an unlikely to be hit number when I could put that on 6/8?

[Lurch 5921]

The reason I would bail on the 4/10 would be strictly because of the likelihood of a 4/10 point being made after the 4/10 point being established. Why lay another $25 on an unlikely to be hit number when I could put that on 6/8?

Yes it’s less likely, but it’s getting paid out at a commiserate rate.

If I told you we could flip coins 6 times for $1 to win $2/each

Or

Roll dice 6 times for $1 to win $6/each

Would you think one is a more profitable game than the other?

[Lurch 5921]

Another way to appreciate that (and the beauty of the 3-4-5x standard)

 

You put 10 on pass and roll 4 to set point. You put $30 max odds. Then hit point. You get $10 for your pass line and $60 (2:1) for odds. $70.

 

You put 10 on pass and roll 5 to set point. You put $40 max odds. Then hit point. You get $10 for your pass line and $60 (3:2) for odds. $70.

 

You put 10 on pass and roll 6 to set point. You put $50 max odds. Then hit point. You get $10 for your pass line and $60 (6:5) for odds. $70.

 

Yes 4 is harder to hit, but you’re paying less to win same total payout as you’d get with a 6.

 

 

 

[Guest]

10X odds is a good start.

20X is plenty of fun( lake Chuck casinos do this.)

100X is hard to get to, but VERY rewarding.  Horseshoe in Bossier does this.

 

That 3/4/5x bullshit is for bingo parlors and people who love Oklahoma.

[TXSooner518 2432]

1 hour ago, Lurch said:

 

Yes it’s less likely, but it’s getting paid out at a commiserate rate.

If I told you we could flip coins 6 times for $1 to win $2/each

Or

Roll dice 6 times for $1 to win $6/each

Would you think one is a more profitable game than the other?

 

 

1 hour ago, Lurch said:

Another way to appreciate that (and the beauty of the 3-4-5x standard)

 

You put 10 on pass and roll 4 to set point. You put $30 max odds. Then hit point. You get $10 for your pass line and $60 (2:1) for odds. $70.

 

You put 10 on pass and roll 5 to set point. You put $40 max odds. Then hit point. You get $10 for your pass line and $60 (3:2) for odds. $70.

 

You put 10 on pass and roll 6 to set point. You put $50 max odds. Then hit point. You get $10 for your pass line and $60 (6:5) for odds. $70.

 

Yes 4 is harder to hit, but you’re paying less to win same total payout as you’d get with a 6.

 

 

 

These right here.

[Lurch 5921]

Yep, though I’ve never seen more than 3-4-5x in Vegas.

For comparison:
3-4-5: house earns $.37 on $100 bet
10x: house earns $.18
20x: $.10
100x : $.02

All of these vs $1.41 for a $100 naked pass bet ... you can see why you really must put odds on your pass/come bets!

[WBT 20483]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

10X odds is a good start.

20X is plenty of fun( lake Chuck casinos do this.)

100X is hard to get to, but VERY rewarding.  Horseshoe in Bossier does this.

 

That 3/4/5x bullshit is for bingo parlors and people who love Oklahoma.

Wynn Las Vegas: 2x

[McFly 606]

Casino Royale used to have 100x odds. Had some good times on those tables. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, WBT said:

Wynn Las Vegas: 2x

[Lurch 5921]

Broke out the Craps Shooter app last night to experiment with different starting stack sizes needed to play a pass/come/max odds strategy on a 3-4-5 table, playing a come every time regardless of how many points I already have up and leaving the odds on when the point is off.

Seems like $400/$600/$1000 starting stacks for $10/$15/$25 bets was sufficient

While testing $25 I had some solid rolls and found myself with $2k from my starting $1k stack. Since it’s not real, I go ahead and start making $50 bets. I run it up to $5k. So I start making $100 bets. Mind you, max odds potentially puts 31 units on the table ($3100 here) and hits pay 7 units ($700). I made it up to $10k, fell down to $4k and then ran that up to $14k before quitting... what I would do to experience that in real life!

I’ve been playing HG method so long (when was that posted?) I’d forgotten how fun this one could be.

[Jhawk 1075]

Appreciate all of the advice.  I typically start with a $200 stack and only see $5/$10 tables here.  I've got no problem starting with $400.  I'm going to play around with the app a little and hone in on what it means (and probably how fast) to lose my stack.  I'll probably be doing full odds from now on.

[henrygandorf 29183]

1 hour ago, Lurch said:

I’ve been playing HG method so long (when was that posted?)

hankkingsley and i met "uncle" richie who taught us the system sometime around 2000 i think.  i put it on hornfans not long after for discussion.

jhawk - my "session" is always $300, and that covers the system for a good chunk of time on $10 tables.  i don't always play it all the way down if it's cold, but it gives you enough time to figure out what's going on.

[TXSooner518 2432]

5 hours ago, Jhawk said:

Appreciate all of the advice.  I typically start with a $200 stack and only see $5/$10 tables here.  I've got no problem starting with $400.  I'm going to play around with the app a little and hone in on what it means (and probably how fast) to lose my stack.  I'll probably be doing full odds from now on.

To be clear, you don't have to do full odds if it is overly burdensome to your roll.  But if you aren't doing full odds, you absolutely should be doing the minimum bet on the pass line bet.  

So if you have a "roll budget" of $40 and on a $10 min table, you are so much better off betting $10 on the line with $30 behind than betting $20 on the line with $20 behind.

[Lurch 5921]

Also, stop being poor

[Guest]

TxSooner hits on a key point.

 

Even if you aren't at max odds, and it's absolutely the correct move to stay within your personal limits; just make sure your passline bet is at the minimum.  If you want more money on the table, your odds are the first destination you should seek.

[Jhawk 1075]

4 hours ago, Lurch said:

Also, stop being poor

If I know how to do anything I know how to build wealth. I haven’t been cashing in my chips so I technically started with $200 a few months ago. The bankroll is at a hefty $2800. Goldman Sachs ain’t got shit. 

[Lurch 5921]

Noice

[henrygandorf 29183]

i don't know where everybody plays, but session-wise, it's really a luxury to be in a vegas casino(s) with a weekend's worth of time.  being forced to one table on a riverboat situation with limited spots forcing you to play through the cold streaks or risk losing your spot is not ideal.

[pacman 7340]

Love me some hg method. I did reach one point where I had enough chips 9n the table the dealer offered a bet suggestion to even odds but I don't recall. Wasn't worried since that particular roll had netted me so much.

 

Waste ton of time. Have fun with the people at the table. Feel bad for those clearly addicted and occasionally enjoy the hot chick on a roll.

Edited August 2, 2018 by pacman

[Wally Pryor 5252]

On 7/31/2018 at 1:09 AM, McFly said:

Casino Royale used to have 100x odds. Had some good times on those tables. 

And of all places had some of the best cocktail service on the Strip.  Not the best selections, mind you.  But you couldn't get half a beer or drink down without a waitress on top of you for another.   No issue with that. 

Compare and contrast with other places (Bellagio) where it can be like molasses and that first drink can cost you a $100+.  

[BigDHornfan 6542]

It's been a few years, but is the craps table at Casino Royale still next to the bar?  That helps a lot in the speed of drinks.

[capnamerca 571]

2 hours ago, BigDHornfan said:

It's been a few years, but is the craps table at Casino Royale still next to the bar?  That helps a lot in the speed of drinks.

Yes, and drink service is still lightning fast. Unfortunately, the CR is trying to rebrand itself. They took out the craps tables by the front door and put in a shitty sports bar, and reduced to one craps table towards the back. No more $3 minimum. No more 100x odds. Just one regular old 3-4-5 table. Sad.

[pacman 7340]

It seems all of Vegas is trying to rebrand itself, away from anything that attracts the poors (or, in our case, any gambler who isn't there to lose the house).

Edited August 3, 2018 by pacman

[longhorndude 146]

Yes, and drink service is still lightning fast. Unfortunately, the CR is trying to rebrand itself. They took out the craps tables by the front door and put in a shitty sports bar, and reduced to one craps table towards the back. No more $3 minimum. No more 100x odds. Just one regular old 3-4-5 table. Sad.

Well shit, headed out next month and was gonna drop by there again for at least a little while, guess not anymore.

[capnamerca 571]

It's still a fun time, mostly for nostalgia's sake. And it's one of the few places you can still find a $5 table, so worth it on that front. 

[longhorndude 146]

Yeah that’s a good point, and I am always impressed at the speed of their drink service.

[Guest]

On 8/3/2018 at 11:19 AM, capnamerca said:

Yes, and drink service is still lightning fast. Unfortunately, the CR is trying to rebrand itself. They took out the craps tables by the front door and put in a shitty sports bar, and reduced to one craps table towards the back. No more $3 minimum. No more 100x odds. Just one regular old 3-4-5 table. Sad.

When i think of going to Vegas again( 2003 was last time)  it only has to do with a big football weekend or March madness or some shit.  Seems like all of the good craps game rules have poof!!! in the wind.

I still say for Craps alone, Shreveport- Bossier is the best trip.

[Wally Pryor 5252]

IP waitresses out work anyone.   Like I alluded to above, you're lucky to have 1/2 your beer or cocktail consumed when another one is staring you in the face.

Great problem to have. 

[Enchubben 5509]

8 hours ago, capnamerca said:

It's still a fun time, mostly for nostalgia's sake. And it's one of the few places you can still find a $5 table, so worth it on that front. 

Coushatta on weekdays before lunch has $5 table(s).  Took a couple hundred from them recently and plan on taking from The Golden Nugget this weekend. 

Saw some interesting betting strategies at Coushatta. One dude was laying all the numbers on the comeout roll. If a point was made, then obviously that number would lose. He then moved all other lay bets to place bets once there was a point.

Saw another guy playing dark side and placing the six and eight. If 6/8 won he would move take down that entire bet and move it to the don’t odds.

[sheeeit 129]

Heading to a poker tourney and wanting to play a little craps.  I think I get the HG method but would love a confirmation.

When I do not have the dice- No bet on the initial roll.  When a point is established I place 3 bets on the non-point inside numbers (point is 6 so I bet on the 5,8,9).  Just straight bets at this point with no odds correct?  If the numbers hit I collect the winnings for the first two hits (next roll is a 5 I collect, next roll is a 9 I collect).  After that if a number hits I leave the bet as odds behind my initial bet correct (8 hits so I press the bet on the 8)?  So now I am getting "odds" on my 8 correct?  Or do I not ever get odds since I did not bet on the initial roll?

Or better question, when I play the 3 inside numbers can I put odds bets on them right away?

[Lurch 5921]

It’s not odds. You’re just increasing the bet with your winnings

[Lurch 5921]

You put odds (no house edge) on top of pass and come bets (house edge)

 

[Guest]

Shreveport trip.  horseshoe, Eldorado, and Sams Town.

got down to $60.  Lat bet I lost was $820.

 

cashed out with $2480.  It was muchly fun.

 

20x odds and I was betting max odds on flat bet of $15 and finally $20 on a 4.  Laid $800 and sumbeech hit it.  I still got standing O as I colored up. Very, very fun evening.

 

obtw, Hustler club is having a ‘local talent’ night and hosts admitted in the radio promo  that participants might weigh more than they do. Arklatex..Vic Mackey style?????

Edited August 16, 2018 by slorch

[pearlandhorn 3269]

Been looking at another betting strategy besides the HG method. 

Assuming a $10 min table: $10 pass line, after point is established, $75 on the Don’t Come (DC), after that roll, min place bets on every number except the point and don’t come, add a $10 come bet. When that come bet moves to a new point, double odds, work your way up to max odds on that come bet and start collecting. Keep placing min come bets and getting odds. If your DC is rolled, you lose that, come off on  points and odds that you have on your come bets and reapply the DC. 

As far as simulations go, it’s pretty low risk. You may have $200 on the table but you will never lose it all and if you have a shooter that hits a few points, you will make money. Thoughts?

 

I will try it out in Shreveport next week. I’ll post a video of the strategy from YouTube later when I’m not on mobile.

[Bartles 769]

I pretty much always have a drink in hand when I play, so no way I could keep track of all that. Also sounds like a way to piss off the other players and dealers who are trying to keep things moving.

[pearlandhorn 3269]

3 hours ago, pearlandhorn said:

Been looking at another betting strategy besides the HG method. 

Assuming a $10 min table: $10 pass line, after point is established, $75 on the Don’t Come (DC), after that roll, min place bets on every number except the point and don’t come, add a $10 come bet. When that come bet moves to a new point, double odds, work your way up to max odds on that come bet and start collecting. Keep placing min come bets and getting odds. If your DC is rolled, you lose that, come off on  points and odds that you have on your come bets and reapply the DC. 

As far as simulations go, it’s pretty low risk. You may have $200 on the table but you will never lose it all and if you have a shooter that hits a few points, you will make money. Thoughts?

 

I will try it out in Shreveport next week. I’ll post a video of the strategy from YouTube later when I’m not on mobile.

Here the video - kind of long.

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

[shakahorn 1643]

20 hours ago, Lurch said:

It’s not odds. You’re just increasing the bet with your winnings

Well, technically, a place bet includes odds.  Placing $12 on a 6/8 is really a $2 bet plus $10 odds.  So you get paid 1-1 on the $2 and 6-5 on the $10, for a total payout of $14.  Same on the 5/9, $10 bet is really $2 bet and $8 odds.  So you get paid 1-1 on the $2 and 3-2 on the $8 for a total payout of $14.  Or you can just call it 7-6  and 7-5 (and 9-5 on the 4/10).