Craps for beginners:

[Lurch 5,949]

Holy shit

[bigup2dahorns 3,348]

Bad ass. Congrats.

[Guest]

FYI-

If you happen to be in Denver metro, and head up to Blackhawk, they have become one of my favorite places to play:

1) 20X odds at Ameristar.  Not the highest odds available out there, but way the fuck better than that penny-ante 3x/4x/5x bullshit

2) Colorado did away with their $100 bet maximum.  Tables were $5k max bet, not that I remotely approached the max.

3) non-smoking.   Hell yeah.  So nice not to have to get blasted with nasty-ass smoke.

[disgustipated 39]

Anyone have thoughts on dice setting and/or dice control?  I was browsing youtube and came across the breaking vegas episode about the "dominator".  I understand hitting the back wall of the alligator skins should randomize the results.   

[Lurch 5,949]

It’s obviously totally random, or the casinos would make changes to ensure it is.

That said, I find it more enjoyable to suspend disbelief and have a routine myself. I like to have both showing the same number topside and take care to never show 7 while setting them up.

But, yeah, it’s completely irrelevant.

[Wally Pryor 5,388]

Seeing the disconcerting trend of a reduction in overall table games in Vegas.   Not sure of the craps impact (or if more blackjack / others) but seems like more of the automated tables are popping up in Vegas plus the sheer # of employees that are dedicated to a craps table just makes me wonder what overhead discussions are going on and where casinos may be headed.  Some of the funnest moments of my life have been centered around friends and I at packed and very hot craps tables (with good cocktail service, of course).  There simply are fewer things more fun.   I know the live craps table will never go away but wonder what the trend will be in the next 5 years or so.

[Guest]

the crewing for craps is the single biggest detriment to why there are not more tables.  That being said, I have played at different iterations of 2 and 3 dealers, sometimes only using half of the table.  Hey degenerates don't care, right?

I'm still amazed when I go to the East Coast though, with regard to how many freaking tables they have. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by slorch

[TonyTexas 10,682]

6 minutes ago, slorch said:

I'm still amazed when I go to the East Coast though, with regard to how many freaking tables they have. 

East Coast gamblers grew up rolling bones in back rooms and alleyways. I imagine there are more dice players per capita than other regions. 

[McCroskey 1,510]

4 hours ago, Lurch said:

It’s obviously totally random, or the casinos would make changes to ensure it is.

That said, I find it more enjoyable to suspend disbelief and have a routine myself. I like to have both showing the same number topside and take care to never show 7 while setting them up.

But, yeah, it’s completely irrelevant.

My personal "preference" is to rotate ONE of the dice by one side before I throw and whatever is topside is whatever it is.  It takes 0.2 seconds and I'm not sure how many people even notice.  I don't care what's showing but if I "stumble" on the rotation...meaning the dice fall funny in my hands or something while I pick them up...I start the whole sequence over.  It's like when someone takes a cell phone picture of Tiger in his backswing.

Now, I really don't care for the shooters that go through those meticulous 30-40 second "adjustments" before they throw the dice...but at the table I described a few posts up from back in April...the awesome shooter guy next to me had a solid 5-10 second routine each time before he threw the dice and clearly I'm a fan of his work.

[disgustipated 39]

13 hours ago, Lurch said:

It’s obviously totally random, or the casinos would make changes to ensure it is.

That said, I find it more enjoyable to suspend disbelief and have a routine myself. I like to have both showing the same number topside and take care to never show 7 while setting them up.

But, yeah, it’s completely irrelevant.

I have seen some folks that have a really soft toss and tight grouping on their dice throws, typically shoot stick 1 or 2.  I dont quite understand throwing the dice backwards against the closest wall before making a throw.  

[henrygandorf 29,218]

anyone who screws with the dice is kidding themselves. 

that said, my dice have to add up to 6 before i pick them up to shoot. 

i rarely roll though, because of the system. 

[Lurch 5,949]

No doubt, the greatest enemy of the system is “what the hell, I guess I’ll shoot, this time. Let me get on those bonus bets since I’m shooting. Yeah, lay max odds on my pass bet and I’ll go ahead and play the system during my roll, too. And of course I should go ahead with some come bets while I’m here”

[McFly 606]

I always throw the Flying V 

Move my arm like a pendulum rotating from the elbow, trying to get a slight backspin, keep the dice together and land them softly where the wall meets the table. Trying to limit the movement once it hits. I also prefer to be next to the stickman for shorter throwing distance. 
Saw the method on a Breaking Vegas episode 

[Wally Pryor 5,388]

More on the elimination of traditional (manned) table games:

https://vitalvegas.com/table-games-replaced-with-machines-at-caesars-ent-casinos/

 

And the advent of this which I'm sure some of you have seen.   I'm there next week.

 

 

 

[Guest]

I'd have no issue with not touching chips or the playing field. I like it that actual dice are still being shot, as the true randomness of the cubes in craps has always been attractive to me. Add a shot clock to the shooter, and we're good.

Payouts should be way the hell more accurate and timely.  Also, fuck you, Mr late bet maker.  You're out.

Edited August 11, 2021 by slorch

[Wally Pryor 5,388]

No landmines / douches / drunks who decide to put their hands on / over the table right when you dice are headed to back wall.   No need to worry about payouts / mathematically challenged, albeit hot, dealers at Binions.  Yes, the shot clock.    No 10-minute fill interruptions to restock the chip stacks.   Set # of 10 positions -  no  jackasses trying to squeeze into a table position where it doesn't exist. (I've probably been said jackass.)  Condensed table size with elimination of the two dealer slots. 

[TonyTexas 10,682]

At a fixed 80 rolls an hour(45 seconds between rolls), it could be slow, particularly after the 2nd roll after the point is set when not many new bets are being placed. 45 seconds could also be tight after the point is set when a lot of bets are placed. Doing a quick search, it appears that rolls per hour on a regular table range from 100 to 250, depending on number of players. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by TonyTexas

[Incredulity 11,859]

Is that player roll?

[Wally Pryor 5,388]

Any idea what the cocktail service situation is now / is there cocktail service?

[Lurch 5,949]

Is that player roll?

Yes, it is. Still one dealer to control the dice

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Wally Pryor said:

Any idea what the cocktail service situation is now / is there cocktail service?

In what area/ city?

Blackhawk, CO normal drinks

Lake Charles, LA normal

Tulsa 3 weeks ago, service was slow AF and you have to buy your drinks; although a double Makers, neat was $9.25, cheaper than my local bar.  Fuck that ante though  too. Oklahoma sucks.  I was only there because of work.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by slorch

[Wally Pryor 5,388]

Sorry, speaking Vegas.   There's another thread which is more apropos'.

[ftf82 488]

Have taken my son (Longhorn 2020 grad) to Vegas twice now. I'll stake him some at the tables but as he's a novice he tends to prefer the "video" crap games that have the big dice in the center of a game console that seats 5 or 6 people. Anyone know the rules on these things? Are they required to payoff a certain amount like slots? He played for a couple of hours with $100, and other than not having the table crowd seemed like a good way to learn.

Edit: Last time we were there was Feb 2020 for the MLR opening weekend. Stayed at the Westgate. Would never take my wife there but a great place to take my kid. Last night session at the table ended up next to Tony DeMarco, 1950s era Welterweight Champ with a huge ring.  CSB and all that.

Edited August 13, 2021 by ftf82

[henrygandorf 29,218]

On 8/11/2021 at 1:26 PM, TonyTexas said:

At a fixed 80 rolls an hour(45 seconds between rolls), it could be slow, particularly after the 2nd roll after the point is set when not many new bets are being placed. 45 seconds could also be tight after the point is set when a lot of bets are placed. Doing a quick search, it appears that rolls per hour on a regular table range from 100 to 250, depending on number of players. 

i've always heard 75-100 per hour.  i've never heard anything about 250, but i don't think i could get to that breakneck speed if it was just me and the stickman.

as for those roll-to-win tables, is there an actual dice roll?  in that video they just show the dealer putting the dice on the table as the graphics show yo-eleven.  if i can't see dice, i would rather play that stupid bubble craps auto-table.

if somebody was smart (they're not) they would start positioning themselves as the "craps" hotel and make it a destination.  i would jump in an uber to go there if i knew they had real craps and a variety of table limits.

i've been staying at caesars properties almost exclusively the past 2+ years because of work stuff, and i can tell you it's not trending the right way, even before covid.  

[Lurch 5,949]

Watch the second video. Players all roll actual dice

[henrygandorf 29,218]

i see the actual dice but they don't show the roll.  just being paranoid i'm sure.

[Lurch 5,949]

My bad… here’s the video I watched on it. Lots of his rolls shown

[Lurch 5,949]

I will say the dice hitting glass sound will probably get to me. Very cringe

[henrygandorf 29,218]

1 hour ago, Lurch said:

My bad… here’s the video I watched on it. Lots of his rolls shown
 

[disgustipated 39]

On 8/11/2021 at 2:26 PM, Wally Pryor said:

More on the elimination of traditional (manned) table games:

https://vitalvegas.com/table-games-replaced-with-machines-at-caesars-ent-casinos/

 

And the advent of this which I'm sure some of you have seen.   I'm there next week.

 

 

 

I apologize if this was said, but they have had this at Winstar for a while (2 in fact).  It has its pros and cons. Rolling on the hard plastic top may seem a bit bouncy for the dice controller enthusiasts, but if you are on one of the middle slots its a really short throw.  There are some weird things on bets, like you cant pull down a dont pass bet after point is made. So if you like playing 6 or 8 from the dont you're stuck.  But you can do a lot more betting strategies without getting a dirty look from the dealer.  For example,I like laying all the numbers on the come out roll. I like it because if a seven hits you get paid lay odds on your bets (ie 1 to 2 on 4/10, 2/3 of 5 and 9 and 5/6 on 6 and 8.  If a point hits, you only lose whatever you put on the point, 2,3,11,12 nothing happens. I am hesitant to ask this of a dealer on a live table, though the first time I saw this bet was on a live table.  On this machine, the vig is calculated in cents at a true 5% and taken out of the win as opposed to upfront, both of which can help or hurt in certain cases.  But since the vig is typically rounded to a minimum of $1, that is that is another reason I wouldnt do it on a live table.  

Also, Winstar live tables dont have hop bets save the basic horns bets.  The ante is only $.50 cents a come out roll, as opposed to $1, though it wouldnt shock me if they raise it, if or when they can. Someone buying in, in the middle of a roll is not as disruptive to the game (trying to put it nicely but I hate that on a live table).  You can play the don'ts more discreetly as people rarely look at the best on the table screen (at least i dont). 

From a social perspective it doesn't compare to a live table as its hard to get as excited on a hot shooter when everyone but the shooter is usually sitting.  And since it is a computer it is susceptible to crashing and or operator error which can really slow down the game. One of winstar's table was down recently for a couple days.   Also recently, I was playing when the stick person entered 7 out when a 6 was rolled. Let's just say, it took awhile to get everything sorted. 

[Guest]

Pulling down a don't pass bet after the point is one of the dumbest moves a craps player can make.  Your bet is anywhere from a 16.6 to a 33% favorite.

Hint: that's why the casino allows it.  Hell, you already made it past the hard part...

[disgustipated 39]

6 hours ago, slorch said:

Pulling down a don't pass bet after the point is one of the dumbest moves a craps player can make.  Your bet is anywhere from a 16.6 to a 33% favorite.

Hint: that's why the casino allows it.  Hell, you already made it past the hard part...

I agree with the stats and assessment of getting past the hard part mathematically, however, whether it is dumb or wise may depend on factors beyond the math, such as an assessment of the shooter, if you give any credence to shooter patterns or dice control.  I know there are exclusive dark and light siders. I have seen light siders go after dark siders at a table.  That said, most dark siders know the strategies to hedge dont pass bets against come out rolls (hop 7's 6-1, 4-3, 5-2, big red / any 7, whirl/world bet (big red and horn bet combined) , yo bet, laying a number, playing pass-line also). 

I actually do give some credence to dice setting/and dice control or at least shooting patterns.  I typically use a hard way set with 4's on top and aces facing back and 5's and 2 on the sides. My seven outs on a 5-2 is at most 20%, and 6-1 up to 50%.  This makes sense to me because both dice have to go off axis to get a 5-2. For me to seven out on 6-1 or 4-3, one of the dice has to double pitch (show the opposite face from starting position) relative to the other die.  As a corollary, I also rarely throw hard 4's or hard 10's from this set.  

[Guest]

Hedging strategies= increasing house percentage

Sorry.  That's just how it is.

That being said, I play a 'grinder's grind 'version of craps, with one don't pass bet and variance in my odds.  I enjoy the simplicity, whereas most people love to see bets all over the table. Some people might even call it boring, but they won't have better math than I do in the long run at the craps table.  Only the house has that, but not after the point is established.

Edited August 16, 2021 by slorch

[disgustipated 39]

7 hours ago, slorch said:

Hedging strategies= increasing house percentage

Sorry.  That's just how it is.

That being said, I play a 'grinder's grind 'version of craps, with one don't pass bet and variance in my odds.  I enjoy the simplicity, whereas most people love to see bets all over the table. Some people might even call it boring, but they won't have better math than I do in the long run at the craps table.  Only the house has that, but not after the point is established.

I agree.  Hedges come at a cost, and that adds to house edge.  I concede on the math of the game, otherwise casinos would not offer it. Long term, the house is playing the grinder strategy, so betting with them makes sense, in the long run.  But, I also think there's a lot of information beyond the math that can influence decisions at the table in a single session.  

[henrygandorf 29,218]

i don't think the house even cares about craps anymore.

the house is playing a slot strategy.  put the one-armed bandits everywhere, and give the fat, stupid people somewhere comfy to sit.

[Lurch 5,949]

Big posted a link in the Vegas thread not long ago that included a discussion of a hedge fund or activist investor group driving one of the major companies to accelerate margin growth. They’ve entered that business life cycle stage where the customer experience is no longer a primary factor when making business decisions. Eventually they’ll hit their target and then exit their positions. Hopefully there will be a rebound for shows, craps, 3-2 blackjack, poker rooms when that happens as the remaining skeleton attempts to claw back lost customers

[henrygandorf 29,218]

8 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Big posted a link in the Vegas thread not long ago that included a discussion of a hedge fund or activist investor group driving one of the major companies to accelerate margin growth. They’ve entered that business life cycle stage where the customer experience is no longer a primary factor when making business decisions. Eventually they’ll hit their target and then exit their positions. Hopefully there will be a rebound for shows, craps, 3-2 blackjack, poker rooms when that happens as the remaining skeleton attempts to claw back lost customers

yeah, vegas has had a different approach to revenue the past ~15 years or so, once clubs and pool parties started taking over.  from conversations i've had with people in the business from all sides (gaming, hospitality, nightlife, convention halls), the reduction of table games was always part of the long term plan.  i think they're using covid as an excuse to accelerate what was always the inevitable outcome.

there's a good chance my nephews (in their teens) will never get to experience vegas the way it was.  sucks.

[TonyTexas 10,682]

9 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

there's a good chance my nephews (in their teens) will never get to experience vegas the way it was.  sucks

And we never got to experience Vegas the way our parents did. It’s a story as old as time. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by TonyTexas

[McCroskey 1,510]

Well, I’m going back next week and am taking some good vibes with me.

Here’s hoping they haven’t fucked things up too much, yet.

[Wally Pryor 5,388]

Wed - Saturday in Vegas. Slightly profitable for the weekend after a rough start. $15 tables are the best you'll find on the Strip now.   $25 in the evenings  and all day Friday and Saturday, obviously higher at Bellagion, Wynn, etc.  The disco craps tables are $10, consistently, so it's obvious where Caesar's wants it money to shift.  Damn, I miss places like CR and the old O'Shea's.  Always good for cheap tables and same for cocktail service.  Ellis Island just off strip continues to be a nice $5 table alternative.   Played one afternoon / evening at El Cortez downtown. $10 / $15.    Probably my favorite place to play now - just so old school and cool.  Now, they even have what amounts to a huge cooler right next to the tables.  You just have to raise your hand and you'll have a beer in your hand in one minute.  Regular cocktail service good as well.

Mask mandate being taken seriously, everywhere. 

 

[henrygandorf 29,218]

5 hours ago, Wally Pryor said:

Wed - Saturday in Vegas. Slightly profitable for the weekend after a rough start. $15 tables are the best you'll find on the Strip now.   $25 in the evenings  and all day Friday and Saturday, obviously higher at Bellagion, Wynn, etc.  The disco craps tables are $10, consistently, so it's obvious where Caesar's wants it money to shift.  Damn, I miss places like CR and the old O'Shea's.  Always good for cheap tables and same for cocktail service.  Ellis Island just off strip continues to be a nice $5 table alternative.   Played one afternoon / evening at El Cortez downtown. $10 / $15.    Probably my favorite place to play now - just so old school and cool.  Now, they even have what amounts to a huge cooler right next to the tables.  You just have to raise your hand and you'll have a beer in your hand in one minute.  Regular cocktail service good as well.

Mask mandate being taken seriously, everywhere. 

the back part of the linq is "the new o'sheas" and there's a table in the back by the side doors.  i can't remember what the limits were last time i was there but it's a rowdy area for sure.  could be fun but i would assume $10-$15 min.

[Wally Pryor 5,388]

Yeah, that new O'Shea' is a mess.  Bad cover bands blaring and now no Lucky.  They got rid of him. 

At the original O'Sheas, Lucky would troll every hot female on the Strip, at eye level to their crotches no less.   And with that table almost sitting on the Strip with the related people traffic, it was entertainment at its finest.  Pretty much unsurpassed. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Wally Pryor

[Enchubben 5,598]

On 8/19/2018 at 11:36 AM, disgustipated said:

has anyone played craps a winstar or Choctaw now that they are using dice and not cards?

Any update here? May go in a couple weeks.

[Guest]

I played at Hard Rock at Tulsa back in July.  Fuck the $1 ante bullshit.  Fuck the low odds on the odds bets.

I hate the Oklahoma casinos. Strongly prefer Louisiana and Colorado craps rules.

[fluff 87]

In Bahamas at Bahamar, pretty fantastic roll last night. 
 

Using HG method, buy in for $200 on a $15 table. Tread water for 30 minutes then get down to my last $51 bucks. Put $51 inside on 5,6,8. 

This guy continues to roll I don’t know how many 5’s, but I pressed up the 5 from $15 to $1,000. Multiple collects on the way up and some pressing of 6 and 8, he finally craps out and I cash out with $3,280. Nice 45 min profit.

The key with the HG method is patience. Always collect the first two hits before pressing. 
 

I am probably up $10k over the last 10 yrs using the HG method.

 

 

[bigup2dahorns 3,348]

[fluff 87]

What is 20% dealer envy?

[Incredulity 11,859]

2 hours ago, fluff said:

What is 20% dealer envy?

I would guess its an ante or vig or something like that.

 

went to the googles and:

Dealer Envy is an additional payout that goes to the dealer toke pool. When a player wins a corresponding Buster Blackjack wager, the dealer will get a payout as well.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Incredulity

[Guest]

The thing that screams to me in that photo isn't even really craps specific.  A sanctioned NFL logo is present on a legit gaming device in Vegas...

and yet civilization hasn't crumbled because of it.

[Incredulity 11,859]

6 minutes ago, slorch said:

The thing that screams to me in that photo isn't even really craps specific.  A sanctioned NFL logo is present on a legit gaming device in Vegas...

and yet civilization hasn't crumbled because of it.

any pretense regarding the evils of gambling has vanished from society over the last decade or so.

It is a massive shift though. Frankly I don't think its good for society, but here we are.  I gamble and love to have some action going on a game, there are many who can't manage it though.