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Dallas Cowboys 2020 Offseason Thread -- 25th Anniversary of Mediocrity

Patrick Bateman

By Patrick Bateman
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31 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

It's all relative. Garrett came into a pretty good situation. Not great but as good as you can ask for in regards to a team looking for a coach. He coached almost 10 years and never got better at all. He took SB caliber teams and made them underachieve big time.

Wasn't this Kichens first year as head coach? He had some ok stints as a coordinator and assistant. I think he coached Witten in 2006. He coached Carson Palmer in Arizona when they went to the NFC title game.

You think Garrett would have had more success in Cleveland this year than Kitchens? I'm not sure about that. Would Kitchens have did any worse than Garrett did with this team? We let an Eagles team who was playing their practice squad win the division. We had no real injuries this year. 

Yes, I think Ginger's more even-keel personality would've probably served that immature team's interest better than train-wreck Kitchens.

I'm also not sure we've had SB-caliber teams in the time that Garrett was HC. There's always been a fatal flaw, even the years the team won 12 or 13 games. I do agree with those that said this was Garrett's absolute worst coaching performance this season. There is no reason this team shouldn't have won 10-11 games and take the division easily.

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youdunnf'dup

youdunnf'dup 2147

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1 hour ago, Jim Tressell’s Vest said:

Garrett, O'Brien and Kitchens are all about the same level of terrible in my eyes. To have teams with as much talent as the Browns, Texans and Cowboys, yet still underperform year in and year out should say something about their coaching ability (or lack there of). The Texans are only in the playoffs because they have a Top 5-8 team talent wise, but they never seem like a true contender because BOB is just such an awful playcaller. he gets carried by Deshaun, something that Garrett and Kitchens don't benefit from

Garrett and BoB are clearly a cut above kitchens. Clearly. If you don’t think so, you didn’t watch enough browns football this year. I’ll give you Garrett and BoB but Watson is going to win an MVP one day, so he masks some of the incompetence of O’Brien. Garrett had that to a certain extent with Romo later in his career

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Jim Tressell’s Vest

Jim Tressell’s Vest 10

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Just now, youdunnf'dup said:

Garrett and BoB are clearly a cut above kitchens. Clearly. If you don’t think so, you didn’t watch enough browns football this year. I’ll give you Garrett and BoB but Watson is going to win an MVP one day, so he masks some of the incompetence of O’Brien. Garrett had that to a certain extent with Romo later in his career

That's exactly what I was saying lol. I'm a Browns fan so I watched plenty of Browns football unfortunately

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47951

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Bob Sturm has been great to listen to these last 2 days about McCarthy. He said he has watched every single snap of both McCarthy and Garrett's career. He said he wrote an extensive article in The Athletic on McCarthy. Starting with his younger years and how he got to Green Bay. I wish I could read it.

In this past segment, he shot down these comparisons of him and Garrett and I had no idea how different they were in their approaches. Here are a few differences and some of the stat rankings may be off a little since its off top of my head.

On 1st and 10, Jason was 1st in the NFL running the ball. McCarthy was 32nd.

On 4th and 4+ in the first 3 quarters (Bob took out the 4th quarter ones due to desperation), Garrett is pretty much dead last in attempts and McCarthy is at the top.

While Garrett has only coached 76% of McCarthy's career, he has less total challenges than McCarthy has challenges won. That's pretty crazy. He said Garrett was way too conservative with challenges and took the approach its better to save them and then a lot of the time, that time never came so they were wasted. 45 total challenges in 10 years seems very low, seeing as you get 2 per game x16 x10. 

On 2nd and 10, McCarthy was towards the top of the league in passing the ball. Garrett was towards the bottom.

That is the biggest difference for me. The approach on 1st and 2nd downs. 2nd and 10 was a running down for us. Never failed. And we would always get into 3rd down, many times 3rd and long. McCarthy actually prefers to pass on 2nd and 10. Now lets see if that changes now that he has Zeke and Dak as opposed to Rodgers and no real run game.

Bob said 2 of the biggest reasons McCarthy gets the label as being a Garrett like conservative coach is a few instances. One being the 2014 NFC championship game against Seattle. Where he kicked a FG on 4th and goal from the 1. They scored on 5 possessions before the 4th qtr and only had 19 points. 1 TD and 4FGs. I remember that game and he definitely went the route of Turtle Tom and tried to run the clock more than trying to actively win the game. I thought that was a huge blunder. They should have easily won that game.

And the other instances is he had a tendency to get conservative in playoff games.

But he definitely does not run an antiquated early 90s offense like Garrett.

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DougO

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7 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

Has any coach from his tree had a successful head coach career? I can't think of any. They all seem to wilt when their Daddy is not around to hold their hands.

 Hiring from coaching trees has always been a sucker bet. Coaches don't grow in trees. Great coaches are great coaches because they have more talent than other guys that tried to do the same thing. Learning some really talented coach's system doesn't make him a great coach. It might help for a while, but it just makes him a step behind the great coach every time.

 

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Catdaddyhorn

Catdaddyhorn 3466

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10 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Rhule to the panthers is official. Please Gettleman, hire Jason Garrett. It is a match made in heaven.

Also, I wouldn’t blame Kellen Moore if he wanted to bounce, but I don’t know why anyone would have an issue keeping him or Kitna. He showed a ton of promise as a first year OC and he seems like a smart enough dude to make the necessary adjustments over the offseason.

Exactly,  plus getting Moore exposed to different concepts would probably expand his creativity. Furthermore,  I think Kitna's affect on Dak has been extremely undervalued.  Literally everything I read about Kitna leading into this past season was about how to smartly incorporate risk taking and an aggressive mindset into a QB's play. This was clearly the biggest 180 degree turn in Dak's play this year compared to other years. Not only do I not want Dak to lose that aggressive mentality but I  want it nurtured even more. Hopefully with more innovative scheming to go with it. 

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futureman

futureman 22693

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10 hours ago, 'stache said:

Daniel Jones is overrated

yeah he turned the ball over a lot, but he’s a rookie.  quietly he put up some very big numbers in more than a couple games games this season, and he’s huge and athletic and very talented and throws a good ball.  with saquon behind him there’s a good chance he’s underrated, not overrated. 

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Genco

Genco 3055

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No it makes perfect sense. Jerry is 77 and hired the best win now candidate as head coach only to retool the entire defense for a couple of years.

Not to mention that Nolan has coached both 4-3 and 3-4. Plus 75%+ of the defensive snaps will be in nickel/dime packages.

Nuclear stupidity.

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DougO

DougO 5264

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1 hour ago, Genco said:

No it makes perfect sense. Jerry is 77 and hired the best win now candidate as head coach only to retool the entire defense for a couple of years.

Not to mention that Nolan has coached both 4-3 and 3-4. Plus 75%+ of the defensive snaps will be in nickel/dime packages.

Nuclear stupidity.

Nolan has been a linebacker coach in a 4-3 the last few years. As a DC he's a 3-4 guy all the way.

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47951

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I hope to god this defensive staff actually values DT and safety. Marinelli did not at all and this made us miss out on a lot of quality draft picks.

Speaking of drafting, it has to get better. No one in this past draft did anything this year. The 2018 draft, Gallup looks to be the only solid player. LVE is still TBD. 2017 draft? Busts all over the place it seems like.

Exactly how many players from our last 3 drafts are out there contributing? Hell we don't even have our 1st rd pick from 2017 and our 1st rd pick in 2018 has serious injury concerns and he flat out sucked last season aside from that.

I will say we hit on our offensive guys in the draft more than defensive. Maybe that has to do with Marinelli and his influence he had to whom he wanted. Go get a safety and DT this year. It's beyond time.

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Irish Wrist Watch

Irish Wrist Watch 1500

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7 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

I hope to god this defensive staff actually values DT and safety. Marinelli did not at all and this made us miss out on a lot of quality draft picks.

Speaking of drafting, it has to get better. No one in this past draft did anything this year. The 2018 draft, Gallup looks to be the only solid player. LVE is still TBD. 2017 draft? Busts all over the place it seems like.

Exactly how many players from our last 3 drafts are out there contributing? Hell we don't even have our 1st rd pick from 2017 and our 1st rd pick in 2018 has serious injury concerns and he flat out sucked last season aside from that.

I will say we hit on our offensive guys in the draft more than defensive. Maybe that has to do with Marinelli and his influence he had to whom he wanted. Go get a safety and DT this year. It's beyond time.

It's possible that Jones went to Marinelli and said "we're going offense. Give me the very minimum required for your defense to survive." So Marinelli opts for Linemen and Linebackers. It's the owner's and sometimes the HC's call.

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Irish Wrist Watch

Irish Wrist Watch 1500

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I'lll concede that Moore might indeed be brilliant, but his calls in critical situations sure as hell didn't look like it. I really don't care what they did in trash time or between the twenties with one of the weakest schedules in the league. I find it hard to believe someone as clueless and desperate for a win as Garrett was standing in his way. Moore could have been studying what was working around the league and implementing it. Moore might do better under McCarthy, but I'd rather they get someone who is smarter and more experienced.

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DougO

DougO 5264

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3 hours ago, taybo20 said:

There’s no way we run a traditional 3-4 defense

They hired coaches that run traditional 3-4. They will lie about it for a while just like the big Flounder did, but they are old fossil system guys and they're gonna do what they do. And you can pretty much flush DLaw's career, until he re-emerges with another team.


 


 

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DougO

DougO 5264

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10 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

I hope to god this defensive staff actually values DT and safety. Marinelli did not at all and this made us miss out on a lot of quality draft picks.

Speaking of drafting, it has to get better. No one in this past draft did anything this year. The 2018 draft, Gallup looks to be the only solid player. LVE is still TBD. 2017 draft? Busts all over the place it seems like.

Exactly how many players from our last 3 drafts are out there contributing? Hell we don't even have our 1st rd pick from 2017 and our 1st rd pick in 2018 has serious injury concerns and he flat out sucked last season aside from that.

I will say we hit on our offensive guys in the draft more than defensive. Maybe that has to do with Marinelli and his influence he had to whom he wanted. Go get a safety and DT this year. It's beyond time.

They will value one DT, a nose tackle, because they're gong to end up going 3-4.

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DougO

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2 hours ago, Irish Wrist Watch said:

I'lll concede that Moore might indeed be brilliant, but his calls in critical situations sure as hell didn't look like it. I really don't care what they did in trash time or between the twenties with one of the weakest schedules in the league. I find it hard to believe someone as clueless and desperate for a win as Garrett was standing in his way. Moore could have been studying what was working around the league and implementing it. Moore might do better under McCarthy, but I'd rather they get someone who is smarter and more experienced.

Moore may be smart, but giving him that role was one of the most retarded moves Jerry ever made, with Garrett's approval. He was clearly not ready and clearly in over his head. He should have taken the college gig where he could have a chance to reboot instead of staying in yet another a moldy antiquated system that will more likey stunt his development and confuse him than introduce him to new concepts..

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youdunnf'dup

youdunnf'dup 2147

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4 minutes ago, DougO said:

They will value one DT, a nose tackle, because they're gong to end up going 3-4.

If anything it will be a hybrid. You’re not going to run a 3-4 when you’re in nickel, and in today’s NFL you’re going to be in nickel the vast majority of the time. So whether we run a 3-4 on obvious run downs, or not, it doesn’t really matter. You might see a traditional 3-4 like 20% of the time, if that. 

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futureman

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14 minutes ago, DougO said:

They hired coaches that run traditional 3-4. They will lie about it for a while just like the big Flounder did, but they are old fossil system guys and they're gonna do what they do. And you can pretty much flush DLaw's career, until he re-emerges with another team.

good lord you’re stupid. 

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youdunnf'dup

youdunnf'dup 2147

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2 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

What would y’all think about letting Dak walk and offering TB12  2yrs/$45mm guaranteed, re-sign Amari, draft a Tua/Herbert, and move forward? 

That would never happen, but I’d be fine with doing literally anything other than giving Dak $35+ mil a year and making him one of the highest paid qbs in the history of the NFL. He improved last year in the sense that he took more chances, but I don’t see how you can expect someone to improve as much as we would like him to if he isn’t accurate, isn’t a dynamic runner, and seems like he doesn’t even like running. I think he kind of is what he is at this point, which is fine, but lol not worth $35+ mil 

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DanTheHorn

DanTheHorn 5079

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19 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

Bob Sturm has been great to listen to these last 2 days about McCarthy. He said he has watched every single snap of both McCarthy and Garrett's career. He said he wrote an extensive article in The Athletic on McCarthy. Starting with his younger years and how he got to Green Bay. I wish I could read it.

..................................

That is the biggest difference for me. The approach on 1st and 2nd downs. 2nd and 10 was a running down for us. Never failed. And we would always get into 3rd down, many times 3rd and long. McCarthy actually prefers to pass on 2nd and 10. Now lets see if that changes now that he has Zeke and Dak as opposed to Rodgers and no real run game.

McCarthy from what I have heard commentators say is a pass first coach. Coaches that go with their tendency instead of attacking the opponents weakness are just frustrating regardless of run or pass. Coaches that are surprised their weakness has been attacked instead of the opponent sticking to their tendency are called Tom Herman.

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youdunnf'dup

youdunnf'dup 2147

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5 minutes ago, DanTheHorn said:

McCarthy from what I have heard commentators say is a pass first coach. Coaches that go with their tendency instead of attacking the opponents weakness are just frustrating regardless of run or pass. Coaches that are surprised their weakness has been attacked instead of the opponent sticking to their tendency are called Tom Herman.

I think that has more to do with the qbs he’s had and the running backs he’s had, tbh. But we’ll see.

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Burt Macklin

Burt Macklin 19230

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3 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

What would y’all think about letting Dak walk and offering TB12  2yrs/$45mm guaranteed, re-sign Amari, draft a Tua/Herbert, and move forward? 

The odds are extremely low of either of those guys falling to 17th, so you’d have to include the Cowboys trading away their 2021 1st to move up in that scenario.

22 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I think that has more to do with the qbs he’s had and the running backs he’s had, tbh. But we’ll see.

He was 27th in the league in run rate with Brett Hundley as his QB for most of the season in 2017, and he had Aaron Jones on that team. He also couldn’t figure out that Aaron Jones should be a starting RB in 2018, either. The problem with his run rates in 2017 and 18 wasn’t having a good QB and no good RBs. It was McCarthy’s inability to understand his own personnel. 

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47951

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You want Dallas to draft more injury prone players? How has that worked out in the past?

No way would I want to roll with Tua going forward. Herbert? Meh. But with either of those guys, we will have to move up to get them. Neither will drop. Really doubt Dallas goes this route. If we were going to go this route, we would have had to bomb last season. Similar to the 2015 season. 

Dak is not even close to being a glaring issue with this team. Coaching was. They made changes. Defense was big time. They got a new DC (although who knows how he fares). Special teams sucked.

The numbers already say Dak is at his best when he throws the ball 32 times and less a game. They did the same shit with Romo. Dak had a Romoesque season. A lot of yards but it led us nowhere. So much empty yards. I mean he had almost 5000 yards. That's pretty crazy for Dak. He had over 1k more than Rodgers, who is 12-4 and got a bye. Dak works great with a run game and play action. Which was 2016 and 2017 until Zeke was suspended. Revert back to his strengths. 

I think you will see a lot of improvement with McCarthy working with Dak rather than Garrett. He has worked with some great ones. He knows what it takes. And he puts them through hisQB camp. He's worked with Montana, Rodgers, Favre. All hall of famrers. He's hands on. Garrett is not. Garrett is as hands off as it gets, which is a bad thing for a young QB. I think if Dak got to work with McCarthy since he was drafted as opposed to Garrett, there would be a big difference. Or an Andy Reid or McVey. 

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Trey3216

Trey3216 15452

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58 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

You want Dallas to draft more injury prone players? How has that worked out in the past?

No way would I want to roll with Tua going forward. Herbert? Meh. But with either of those guys, we will have to move up to get them. Neither will drop. Really doubt Dallas goes this route. If we were going to go this route, we would have had to bomb last season. Similar to the 2015 season. 

Dak is not even close to being a glaring issue with this team. Coaching was. They made changes. Defense was big time. They got a new DC (although who knows how he fares). Special teams sucked.

The numbers already say Dak is at his best when he throws the ball 32 times and less a game. They did the same shit with Romo. Dak had a Romoesque season. A lot of yards but it led us nowhere. So much empty yards. I mean he had almost 5000 yards. That's pretty crazy for Dak. He had over 1k more than Rodgers, who is 12-4 and got a bye. Dak works great with a run game and play action. Which was 2016 and 2017 until Zeke was suspended. Revert back to his strengths. 

I think you will see a lot of improvement with McCarthy working with Dak rather than Garrett. He has worked with some great ones. He knows what it takes. And he puts them through hisQB camp. He's worked with Montana, Rodgers, Favre. All hall of famrers. He's hands on. Garrett is not. Garrett is as hands off as it gets, which is a bad thing for a young QB. I think if Dak got to work with McCarthy since he was drafted as opposed to Garrett, there would be a big difference. Or an Andy Reid or McVey. 

I was merely speaking on a $$ basis regarding cap space.  

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Gene Parmesan

Gene Parmesan 4064

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2 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Dak isn’t close to being the problem, but the moment he’s one of the highest paid qbs in the nfl and there’s no evidence that he can become one of the better qbs in the nfl, THEN he becomes a problem. And that’s about to happen.

It will only be that way for a short period.  Mahomes, Jackson, and Watson will all reup for more than Dak.

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youdunnf'dup

youdunnf'dup 2147

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Just now, Gene Parmesan said:

It will only be that way for a short period.  Mahomes, Jackson, and Watson will all reup for more than Dak.

But all those guys are difference makers. All those guys elevate their team. Dak doesn’t. And I’m not saying that like I’m out here hating on Dak. But he doesn’t elevate his team. He’s a lot more comparable to Kirk cousins than he is any of those guys. 

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Gene Parmesan

Gene Parmesan 4064

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Just now, youdunnf'dup said:

But all those guys are difference makers. All those guys elevate their team. Dak doesn’t. And I’m not saying that like I’m out here hating on Dak. But he doesn’t elevate his team. He’s a lot more comparable to Kirk cousins than he is any of those guys. 

Yeah and Dak's contract in a few years will be comparable to where a QB of his caliber is slotted.  He's not going to be the highest paid QB for the next decade. 

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