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Dallas Cowboys 2020 Offseason Thread -- 25th Anniversary of Mediocrity

Patrick Bateman

By Patrick Bateman
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Gene Parmesan

Gene Parmesan 4029

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3 minutes ago, C-Man said:

It is? A quick check shows he was 1-6 against playoff teams in 2019 and the Cowboys got beat by the Rams in the second playoff game in 2018.

As opposed to what?  For it to mean anything you need to show the #s for other QBs versus playoff teams.  I don't expect Daks numbers to be the best of the bunch, but it still needs context.

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Iceman

Iceman 2820

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23 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

As opposed to what?  For it to mean anything you need to show the #s for other QBs versus playoff teams.  I don't expect Daks numbers to be the best of the bunch, but it still needs context.

Guys like Mahomes, Wilson, Jackson, et al are generally good for more than a TD per game, regardless of opponent.

Get this, and this is gonna bother some folks, the great QBs actually step it up a notch or three against better competition.

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Drew

Drew 2700

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Sure, so do the TEAMS around them.

Now go find his numbers against playoff teams for his entire career.  I'd be willing to bet that last year was more aberration than trend.  The ENTIRE team, particularly on offense, seemed to go in a shell, either due to coaching, or philosophy itself(like the NO and Philly games) and they did not play the wide open style they did in other games.

 

But yeah, Dak was THE reason the Cowboys struggled against good teams.  Got us.

I swear you idiots would just prefer us go from one draft to the next drafting the next QB after the next QB after the next rather than actually accept we have a GOOD QB who has done nothing but improve every year and isn't done.  But I guess ALL QB's are done getting better after 4 years.  

BTW, his season last year was a Top 5 type season in the NFL for 2019 and we're still pretending his a bum.  Clowns.

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Gene Parmesan

Gene Parmesan 4029

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1 hour ago, Iceman said:

Guys like Mahomes, Wilson, Jackson, et al are generally good for more than a TD per game, regardless of opponent.

Get this, and this is gonna bother some folks, the great QBs actually step it up a notch or three against better competition.

Then post their stats vs playoff teams showing that and i'll agree with you.

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C-Man

C-Man 27417

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13 minutes ago, Drew said:

Sure, so do the TEAMS around them.

Now go find his numbers against playoff teams for his entire career.  I'd be willing to bet that last year was more aberration than trend.  The ENTIRE team, particularly on offense, seemed to go in a shell, either due to coaching, or philosophy itself(like the NO and Philly games) and they did not play the wide open style they did in other games.

 

But yeah, Dak was THE reason the Cowboys struggled against good teams.  Got us.

I swear you idiots would just prefer us go from one draft to the next drafting the next QB after the next QB after the next rather than actually accept we have a GOOD QB who has done nothing but improve every year and isn't done.  But I guess ALL QB's are done getting better after 4 years.  

BTW, his season last year was a Top 5 type season in the NFL for 2019 and we're still pretending his a bum.  Clowns.

Look dude, most of us -- @futureman excluded -- understand that Dak is probably the best we can do for the 2020 season. We have a problem with his apparent contract demands. HE DOES NOT MERIT BEING THE HIGHEST-PAID PLAYER IN FOOTBALL!!!!!!! I don't care if it's only for one goddamn day. He isn't worth that big of a contract.

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Catdaddyhorn

Catdaddyhorn 3448

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5 hours ago, C-Man said:

I *think* this is Dak's record against playoff teams in his career:

  • 1-6 in 2019
  • 4-4 in 2018
  • 2-4 in 2017 (one of those was 6-0 win over Eagles in final week of regular season)
  • 3-3 in 2016

10-17

It would be nice to see how that compares to other QBs during those years. We really have no context as to whether that's good or bad. Given his overall win% vs other QBs during that time I bet they're not much different, but who knows. 

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gsoda3

gsoda3 3317

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It would be nice to see how that compares to other QBs during those years. We really have no context as to whether that's good or bad. Given his overall win% vs other QBs during that time I bet they're not much different, but who knows. 
Do you really need additional context? We're talking about the highest ever contract for a QB who went 10-17 against those guys he's going to be paid more than.
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Catdaddyhorn

Catdaddyhorn 3448

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For all you know that could be the best record over those 4 years. Context does matter. One thing I remember from all the VY arguments in the past is that statistics like these (winning% against playoff teams) are often bad for even the most elite QBs. Tannehill just signed a $29.5mm/yr contract for 10 games last year. I'm sorry guys the idea that Dak is going to only take $30mm is out the barn. 

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Catdaddyhorn

Catdaddyhorn 3448

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Average per year, total guaranteed money, and length of the contract are the 3 key points of contention from what I've read. Behaving as if satisfying one is the be all end all to getting the deal done is naive.  2 out of 3 and maybe we're talking, but 1 out of 3 ain't gonna get it. 

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TornACL

TornACL 7767

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9 hours ago, ButtFumble said:

so no chance to sign Tom Brady?

and the money that Dax is asking for is ridiculous dallas needs to tell him to test the market and probably sign Cooper and go from there

That's a ridiculous approach. Jacksonville would sign him in two seconds. They are flush with cap space and prone to bad decisions, so they'd probably kick in a little extra and juice it up to 45 per. 

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Junior Miller

Junior Miller 1502

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That's absolutely insane they're going to actually start the league season right now with all of this going on. The players Union needs some self awareness. These teams are actually going to have to be flying players and agents across the country and sending them to hospitals overrun with Covid19 patients for physicals? Postpone this a month and re-evaluate. 

 

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Gucci_Suit

Gucci_Suit 2689

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This is really dumb. If we couldn’t reach a deal w/ Dak (and obviously we didn’t), then you gotta let him walk. Never going to reach a deal, so rip off the bandaid.

Tag Jones, sign Amari, Cobb, Quinn, but let Dak walk. Draft whoever is there at 17. Or trade up to draft a QB.

Basically the opposite of this. 

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C-Man

C-Man 27417

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22 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

That's absolutely insane they're going to actually start the league season right now with all of this going on. The players Union needs some self awareness. These teams are actually going to have to be flying players and agents across the country and sending them to hospitals overrun with Covid19 patients for physicals? Postpone this a month and re-evaluate. 

 

4Tl5MT.gif

Over-react much? Fair to consider the optics of starting "business as usual" but dear lord, owners and GMs can fly private and since when do you go to hospitals for physicals. Selfishly, this is at least puts some "live" sports into our consciousness.

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futureman

futureman 22566

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Posted
12 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Browns just signed Austin Hooper to become the highest paid TE in the league. I wanted to get in on the Hooper sweepstakes because he really broke out last year (or was it two years ago?). But definitely not at that price. 

do they still have njoku as well?

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3945

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15 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Browns just signed Austin Hooper to become the highest paid TE in the league. I wanted to get in on the Hooper sweepstakes because he really broke out last year (or was it two years ago?). But definitely not at that price. 

Should check in on Njoku to see if Browns would trade him on the cheap...

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'stache

'stache 21929

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Posted (edited)

Anyone who thinks you can just draft a useful QB is literally insane. Most first round QB selections either bust or are average at best. Here is a ranking of first round QBs since 2000. Once you get past the top 10 it gets pretty dicey. And that's over the last 20 years for crying out loud. It's a complete crapshoot. Odds are we will be mediocre no matter what, but chances are better of overcoming the hump if you keep your QB who has proven mostly effective, especially with a new coaching staff coming in. Tannehill just got 30 fucking mil per year. Dak is much, much better. The QB market resets everytime a new QB signs. That's just how it is. It's not my money, I give zero fucks, and its crazy that so many of you care about the money so much. It's been shown time and time again that "cap hell" is a myth.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-every-nfl-quarterback-drafted-first-round-since-2000/16obdsowna7kk1gnhl9iqrp2pg/54

 

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C-Man

C-Man 27417

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11 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Anyone who thinks you can just draft a useful QB is literally insane. Most first round QB selections either bust or are average at best. Here is a ranking of first round QBs since 2000. Once you get past the top 10 it gets pretty dicey. And that's over the last 20 years for crying out loud. It's a complete crapshoot. Odds are we will be mediocre no matter what, but chances are better of overcoming the hump if you keep your QB who has proven mostly effective, especially with a new coaching staff coming in. Tannehill just got 30 fucking mil per year. Dak is much, much better. The QB market resets everytime a new QB signs. That's just how it is. It's not my money, I give zero fucks, and its crazy that so many of you care about the money so much. It's been shown time and time again that "cap hell" is a myth.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-every-nfl-quarterback-drafted-first-round-since-2000/16obdsowna7kk1gnhl9iqrp2pg/54

 

That's all fine and none of us are arguing that fact. Truth is we DON'T know what kind of money Dak has turned down. If we're going to re-set the market for a QB who is fringe Top 10 AT BEST at this point, I do not want to set it up so he's able to easily do the same thing in 3-4 seasons.

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'stache

'stache 21929

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3 minutes ago, C-Man said:

That's all fine and none of us are arguing that fact. Truth is we DON'T know what kind of money Dak has turned down. If we're going to re-set the market for a QB who is fringe Top 10 AT BEST at this point, I do not want to set it up so he's able to easily do the same thing in 3-4 seasons.

What happens now has zero to do with what happens in 3-4 years. By then he'll either have improved, stayed the same, or regressed. The QB market will also either keep exploding or normalize. We should pay him what QBs demand now and draft QBs with potential too. We lucked into a 4th rounder that has played pretty well.  We have Cooper Fucking Rush backing him up. That is mismanagement of the position in general.

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DougO

DougO 5257

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Posted (edited)

I'm not worried about Cooper. He can sign at his current value or get massively overpaid by another team to check out for half the season. The new offense will likely feature using more receivers more efficiently rather than depending on super stars to carry the load. Gallup was really stepping up and ended up only 82 fewer yards on the season and two fewer TDs, and that's after missing two games after a knee surgery during the season. Cobb was starting to find a good groove and be much more productive, and Jarwin should really help the TE receiving production, was well as probably more to the backs. It's a deep receiver draft as well.

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Drew

Drew 2700

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That's all fine and none of us are arguing that fact. Truth is we DON'T know what kind of money Dak has turned down. If we're going to re-set the market for a QB who is fringe Top 10 AT BEST at this point, I do not want to set it up so he's able to easily do the same thing in 3-4 seasons.

“Fringe top 10 AT BEST”. Lulz.
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'stache

'stache 21929

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4 minutes ago, Drew said:


“Fringe top 10 AT BEST”. Lulz.

Not sure which way you are implying with this. There is a whole lot of trash at starting QB right now in the league. He is clearly within the top 10 and still has a lot of potential held back by the ginger fuck.

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C-Man

C-Man 27417

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14 minutes ago, Drew said:


“Fringe top 10 AT BEST”. Lulz.

 

9 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Not sure which way you are implying with this. There is a whole lot of trash at starting QB right now in the league. He is clearly within the top 10 and still has a lot of potential held back by the ginger fuck.

QBs who are absolutely better than Dak right now:

1. Pat Mahomes

2. Lamar Jackson

3. Tom Brady

4. Aaron Rodgers

5. Drew Brees

6. Russell Wilson

7. Deshaun Watson

QBs who *might* be better or are at least comparable:

8. Matt Ryan

9. Carson Wentz

10. Jarrod Goff

11. Matt Stafford

12. Jimmy Garropollo

13. Kirk Cousins

14. Ryan Tannehill

That's leaving off some young guys like Daniel Jones, Kyler Murray and a few others that could prove to be better down the road.

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47439

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26 minutes ago, 'stache said:

What happens now has zero to do with what happens in 3-4 years. By then he'll either have improved, stayed the same, or regressed. The QB market will also either keep exploding or normalize. We should pay him what QBs demand now and draft QBs with potential too. We lucked into a 4th rounder that has played pretty well.  We have Cooper Fucking Rush backing him up. That is mismanagement of the position in general.

Yep. Dallas used to have very quality backups when they had Kitna and Orton. Both guys were starters and had a ton of experience. You could easily plug them in and we could tread water. Cooper Rush and Mike White are god awful. This team would collapse ala 2015 if either had to play for any stretch of time. Lucky for us Dak has never missed any time at all and it hasn't reared its ugly head. Does not mean it is not a dumb ass strategy to take for easily the most important position in football. I think we could have really used a seasoned backup vet to come in for Dak in the Philly game. Dak's shoulder was not right. He had not practiced all week and he never did that in his career. But no way in hell could you put Cooper Rush out there for that game. Or they could have leaned on their fucking RB they extended for $90mill. Nope, they let their injured QB throw a shit ton of times.

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47439

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6 minutes ago, Genco said:

Good thing Stephen got Zeke, Jaylon, and Collins extended early or they really would have been in a bind roster wise.

People are going to realize Stephen is as fucking stupid as his dad when it comes to roster moves and signing players. Maybe even dumber. That Jaylon contract might be one of the worst we ever did. We saw him play good for one single season and gave him a huge extension. He was not going to hold out. He had zero leverage. We could have washed our hands after this season with him after we would have realized 2018 was a fluke and he's a fraud. Spare me his comeback story. He fucking sucks. It actually all started with that Rams playoff game. Our LBs as a whole were fucking exposed as being soft. Jaylon and LVE were high draft picks and supposed to be the future of this defense for the next decade just a year ago. Hell I think Dallas needs to look for LVE's replacement if they can. His injuries are serious long term and so many questions.

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'stache

'stache 21929

Posted
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, C-Man said:

 

QBs who are absolutely better than Dak right now:

1. Pat Mahomes

2. Lamar Jackson

3. Tom Brady

4. Aaron Rodgers

5. Drew Brees

6. Russell Wilson

7. Deshaun Watson

QBs who *might* be better or are at least comparable:

8. Matt Ryan

9. Carson Wentz

10. Jarrod Goff

11. Matt Stafford

12. Jimmy Garropollo

13. Kirk Cousins

14. Ryan Tannehill

That's leaving off some young guys like Daniel Jones, Kyler Murray and a few others that could prove to be better down the road.

Brady and Brees are non-factors because they are on the verge or retirement. Rodgers is old enough that he's not going to hit the open market and is not a peer to Dak for this purpose. The only young QBs who are clearly better than Dak are Mahones, Jackson, and Watson. Wilson is middle aged and better. Dak is better and/or has more potential than the one's you've listed 8-14.

Edited by 'stache
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C-Man

C-Man 27417

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10 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Brady and Brees are non-factors because they are on the verge or retirement. Rodgers is old enough that he's not going to hit the open market and is not a peer to Dak for this purpose. The only young QBs who are clearly better than Dak are Mahones, Jackson, and Watson. Wilson is middle aged and better. Dak is better and/or has more potential than the one's you've listed 8-14.

They aren't non-factors because they just played this last season and WILL play next season. You and Cowboys Super Fan #1 laughed when I said Dak was borderline Top 10 at this very moment and I stand by that. Wentz was better than Dak last year when you consider what he has as weapons compared to Dak. Ryan was MVP a few years ago and should've won the Super Bowl. You could make arguments -- not saying you'd necessarily win -- that the guys 10-14 are comparable to Dak.

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Vic Mackey

Vic Mackey 47439

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59 minutes ago, C-Man said:

 

QBs who are absolutely better than Dak right now:

1. Pat Mahomes

2. Lamar Jackson

3. Tom Brady

4. Aaron Rodgers

5. Drew Brees

6. Russell Wilson

7. Deshaun Watson

QBs who *might* be better or are at least comparable:

8. Matt Ryan

9. Carson Wentz

10. Jarrod Goff

11. Matt Stafford

12. Jimmy Garropollo

13. Kirk Cousins

14. Ryan Tannehill

That's leaving off some young guys like Daniel Jones, Kyler Murray and a few others that could prove to be better down the road.

Lamar Jackson? Explain to me how he's better. What has he did that is so much greater? His 2 playoff games so far have been putrid. I don't want to know if Lamar will be better down the line. Right now, what exactly does he do better? 

 

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