Dallas Cowboys 2020 Offseason Thread -- 25th Anniversary of Mediocrity

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

12 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

The reports I've seen have been consistent and they've matched up in timing with when the Cowboys and Dak's agent have been negotiating.  It was a 5 year offer, AAV was about 34.5m, and little bit less than 110m guaranteed.  So basically, less than Goff guaranteed but a little more AAV, slightly more than Wentz deal although Wentz's deal has some weird triggers in them so he gets some cash flow in the 3rd year.  Less than Wilson.  Less than Mahomes.  Less than Watson's coming contract.  I understand the Cowboys wanting that 5th year and both sides dug in their heels.  We'll see who bet right.  If Dak balls out and gets the team to the playoffs and wins a game or two, he's probably going to get more.  If we miss the playoffs even with good numbers, he probably gets about the same.  If he gets hurt, then a little less.  If we don't finish the season?????  What is COVID going to do to the cap short-term?  A lot of moving parts.

Amari's contract is pretty rich actually.  Zeke's contract is top 10 worst contract in the league.  Henry signed today for basically half the guaranteed money.  It's laughable how dumb that draft pick was and how extending him to a record contract was.  Doesn't mean he's not a good player, but nowhere near the value.  Stephen isn't proving to be any better than his father at contract negotiation.  I guess you can point to Collins and the Smith deal has been a good one.

There's some truth here.  In the summer of 2019, the argument was Dak wasn't worth 25 million AAV.

 

 

You're right.  I did a poor job of expressing how they resolved his contract relatively easily compared to others and that was solely due to Dak's contract negotiations taking place at the exact same time.  

 

Side note: the contract that Derrick Henry just signed has less guaranteed money than the contract Chris Johnson signed with the Titans 9 fucking years ago.  If that doesn't tell you how royally the Cowboys fucked themselves over with not only drafting Zeke with their highest pick in 30 years, but signing him to a market breaking contract only 3 years later,  I dont know what to tell ya.  

Edited July 16, 2020 by Catdaddyhorn

[Nicole44 22310]

Another thing to consider is whether or not there is a season. Just heard Mike Fisher talking about this to some degree as it pertains to the franchise tag. If there is no season—then next year Dak would be entering year one not two of the tag so not $38 million but less. Also mentioned his agent Todd France understanding that the network contract being up in a few years (2022 I think?) means that the cap will explode is why they wanted a shorter contract and second bite at the apple.

at any rate, no season (please please please let there be a season) Dak and his agent may have overplayed their hand. Because nothing guaranteed for this season essentially. 

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

Great article describing the calculus surrounding Dak's contract negotiations. 

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/cowboys-blew-it-with-dak-prescott-in-2019-thats-why-theres-no-longterm-deal-now-and-why-he-may-exit-later-051415760.html?__twitter_impression=true

Cowboys blew it with Dak Prescott in 2019. That’s why there's no long-term deal now – and why he may exit later.

Charles Robinson

July 16, 2020, 12:14 am

The stage was set for the two sides to meet in the middle. In the end, the Dallas Cowboys and Dak Prescott could never agree on what the middle really was.

The signing deadline for franchise-tagged players came and went for the Cowboys and Prescott to ratchet down and work out an extension Wednesday, ending hopes that both would surrender a little territory now to shape the entire kingdom together in the long term. But there was no extension to be had. And despite what anyone might report about which side was ready to get a deal done, multiple sources familiar with the negotiations told Yahoo Sports on Wednesday that it was never near a home stretch. In fact, the accounts suggest the shared optimism for a deal has never gotten near where it was in August of 2019, when there was momentum for the Cowboys and Prescott’s camp heading into the season.

That is when this deal should have been completed. Late August in 2019 is when Dallas should have pinned its hopes to a four-year tack-on deal with numbers that would have matched the four-year, $140 million extension the Seattle Seahawks’ Russell Wilson signed. At the time, sources say Dallas balked at such a notion, favoring a slotting of Prescott that would have put him between the Philadelphia Eagles’ Carson Wentz and the Los Angeles Rams’ Jared Goff, but also with the same elements of six years of control the Rams and Eagles got in their deals.

If you don’t know it by now, let’s make it clear one last time: this is where the impasse started. And it was only going to be broken by someone surrendering something of significant value. Dallas wanted a discount and control. Prescott wasn’t giving up both. Eventually, the math was the only language that mattered — and Dallas let that math get way outside of its comfort zone.

----------------

2 mistakes Cowboys made in dealing with Dak Prescott

That’s where the miscalculation comes in. And it was basically all on the Cowboys’ end. Dallas thought all along that it was pricing Prescott’s market fairly. It never seemed to grasp two things that Prescott telegraphed to the franchise.

First, he switched to CAA agent Todd France in the summer of 2018, a move that was a clear insinuation that Prescott was going to reach for his maximum value at the point a deal was consummated. In a scenario like that, getting a contract done earlier is better. And Dallas should have had a framework for a deal done late in the 2018 season, before other quarterbacks from the class of 2016 started to do their own extensions. The longer Dallas waited, the more it would be a certainty that Wentz and Goff would factor into negotiations. As they ultimately did when Dallas failed to come out of the box with the kind of $32-million-per year offer that would have expedited a deal heading into the NFL’s scouting combine in 2019.

--------------------

The second thing Dallas failed to grasp was if Prescott didn’t get a deal pacing his value ahead of extensions for Wentz and Goff, he was going to bet on himself all the way to free agency, even if that meant going year-to-year through the 2022 season. Essentially, once Prescott went into 2019 without a deal, the only chance Dallas was going to have at a discount was going to be if Prescott fell flat on his face. And when he didn’t in the first three games of 2019, his camp knew the price was going up as the season progressed. That’s what happened, widening the problems between the two sides.

 

[tokamak 6687]

2 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Side note: the contract that Derrick Henry just signed has less guaranteed money than the contract Chris Johnson signed with the Titans 9 fucking years ago.  If that doesn't tell you how royally the Cowboys fucked themselves over with not only drafting Zeke with their highest pick in 30 years, but signing him to a market breaking contract only 3 years later,  I dont know what to tell ya.  

I follow recruiting a lot and I've honestly started to wonder why 5-star high school running backs even exist any more. If I were those dudes I'd be going to my coach and asking for reps at DB or whatever. If someone has NFL talent, they're better off making the league at literally any other position. Unless you're drafted by Jerry Jones apparently.

49 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

Another thing to consider is whether or not there is a season. Just heard Mike Fisher talking about this to some degree as it pertains to the franchise tag. If there is no season—then next year Dak would be entering year one not two of the tag so not $38 million but less. Also mentioned his agent Todd France understanding that the network contract being up in a few years (2022 I think?) means that the cap will explode is why they wanted a shorter contract and second bite at the apple.

at any rate, no season (please please please let there be a season) Dak and his agent may have overplayed their hand. Because nothing guaranteed for this season essentially. 

I just don't see any way the NFL doesn't play. The TV networks are absolutely dying for some live sports right now, and the NFL loooves them some money. Individual players may opt out (maybe quite a few of them), and there will probably be empty stadiums, but I'd bet good money on NFL football happening this fall.

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

1 hour ago, Dr. Beeper said:

He’s be incredibly dumb to turn it down. When they got their contracts they were coming off seasons that far exceeded anything Dak has ever done. Yeah some of that may and likely is on the offense under Garrett and we will see how it changes. Secondly, Covid is going to fuck Dak over. I think he’s really, really dumb, and while a decent starter the Cowboys must look around and hard. 

Well that would be a minority opinion among people who report on football, player value/performance, and study contracts, but what do they know?

[Guest]

catdaddy at least discusses it like a reasonable human fucking being.

No need to call him names.😃

Edited July 16, 2020 by slorch

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Think the cap relies on a 10 year window so even if there's a covid dip next season its not gonna be a huge drop.  

[C-Man 27779]

On 7/15/2020 at 4:07 PM, Drew said:

Yeah that's not true at all, they may have offered him that this year which would have been a slap in the face since it's less than Goff and Wentz got in guarantees and less than the Market is at now.

And for those saying Dak was trying to be greedy, selfihs, break the bank whatever...this is proof that wasn't the case. 

The COWBOYS fucked this up.  Not Dak. 

And now we're stuck with more of this BS for every game, every pass, and every post on here, ugh.

OK, Tad.

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

2 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Absolutely dick.  When Covid cuts the ‘21 salary cap by 25%, and Dak goes 8-8 after shitting the bed against winning teams, you’re going to feel like Drew. 

Not sure if you've been paying attention or follow this stuff much but a surprisingly small % of NFL revenue comes from gate receipts (15.5% in 2018) which is what will be affected by a lack of fans this year. TV income comes in regardless. (That being said, the Cowboys make a ridiculous amount money off of stadium related income. So they stand to lose more in this area than any other team by far)

Everything I've read says that the chance of the salary cap staying flat or even dropping is minimal because of a number of factors.

1) The league just signed a new CBA recently so they have 10 years to smooth out any revenue losses this coming season

2) The league is due for a new TV contract coming next season which is gonna explode the cap over the course of its term

3) Gambling money introduces a whole new revenue stream which is gonna absolutely knock the top off of what the NFL has done in the past in terms of revenue. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Catdaddyhorn

[TonyTexas 10764]

11 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Not sure if you've been paying attention or follow this stuff much but a surprisingly small % of NFL revenue comes from gate receipts (15.5% in 2018) which is what will be affected by a lack of fans this year. TV income comes regardless. (That being said, the Cowboys make a ridiculous amount money off of stadium related income. So they stand to lose more in this area than any other team by far

Per this Forbes article, stadium revenue is 38% of total revenue. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2020/05/18/the-stadium-revenue-each-nfl-team-will-lose-if-games-are-played-without-fans/amp/

 

It’s crazy how much more the Cowboys make than everyone else. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by TonyTexas

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

That's my bad. I wasn't paying close enough attention. The site I referenced only accounted for ticket sales. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Catdaddyhorn

[Patrick Bateman 3966]

As far as the salary cap or wage suppression, a lot will indeed have to do with the lost revenue the owners no doubt try to recoup through wage suppression and dependent if they can actually start and finish the season, which frankly, is a coin flip endeavor.  If the season is cancelled, not only will the TV contract be reduced but income recapture will become a thing... more than it already will be.  No idea what happens but a lost season isn't a calamity but it's gonna cause some serious pain.  That may (stress may) lead to a flat or lower cap in the interim and therefore Dak's contract being affected accordingly.   Interesting risk to assess and speculate on.  Maybe Stephen has seen the league revenue projections and acted accordingly but after Mahomes and Henry's deals, I somehow doubt it....

 

[Vic Mackey 47953]

 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

Broaddus with an interesting take on the Dak situation, and I think he’s right for the most part. 
 

 

[DougO 5264]

Maybe, but then Broadass is a moron.

The Cowboys made a more than fair offer, but one that Dak my wish he had not turned down this time next year.

[Vic Mackey 47953]

What an overpaid bum!!

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Zeke should continue getting better and better well into his late 30s. Running backs tend to age gracefully. 

[futureman 22698]

4 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

What an overpaid bum!!

only a below average quarterback would fail to win meaningful games with that kind of production from the running game. 

[Pato del Muerto 53474]

1 hour ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Zeke should continue getting better and better well into his late 30s. Running backs tend to age gracefully. 

I didn’t realize his contract ran that long. 

[Genco 3056]

6 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

What an overpaid bum!!

You're meaning to tell me that the guy with by far the most rushing attempts the last 4 years leads the league in accumulating rushing statistics?

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Teams with top 5ish RBs- Cowboys, Giants, Titans, Panthers, (Vikings/Seahawks/Raiders)?

All Super Bowl favorites.

[Hate 20247]

Titans were in the AFC Championship game last year.

['stache 22131]

32 minutes ago, Hate said:

Titans were in the AFC Championship game last year.

With an aggy qb who threw like 9 passes, most of them poorly. A RB heavy offense can still succeed in this league.

['stache 22131]

10 hours ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Zeke should continue getting better and better well into his late 30s. Running backs tend to age gracefully. 

tha fuck you talking about late 30s? He's 25 and his contract ends right around 30. He'll slow down by them but will have already received most of his guaranteed money by then, I assume.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

4 hours ago, 'stache said:

With an aggy qb who threw like 9 passes, most of them poorly. A RB heavy offense can still succeed in this league.

He played well in the regular season and definitely made some pretty big plays against the Ravens. This board loves to shit on Tannehill because he’s aggy, but I’d love to see what he’d look like with a top 5-10 oline, a top 5 rb, and a top 5 wr core. We saw what he looked like with a top 5 rb last year, and we all know that Adam gase will ruin anyone’s career...

[futureman 22698]

5 hours ago, 'stache said:

A RB heavy offense can still succeed in this league.

it would be nice if your quarterback still showed some level of competence, zeke or no zeke. 

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

1 hour ago, youdunnf'dup said:

He played well in the regular season and definitely made some pretty big plays against the Ravens. This board loves to shit on Tannehill because he’s aggy, but I’d love to see what he’d look like with a top 5-10 oline, a top 5 rb, and a top 5 wr core. We saw what he looked like with a top 5 rb last year, and we all know that Adam gase will ruin anyone’s career...

To which team are you referring to with a top 5-10 Oline?

2019 Team Pass Block Win Rate

1. Green Bay Packers, 72%
2. Baltimore Ravens, 69%
3. Indianapolis Colts, 65%
4. Tennessee Titans, 63%
5. Oakland Raiders, 63%
6. Cleveland Browns, 63%
7. Pittsburgh Steelers, 62%
8. Houston Texans, 62%
9. Buffalo Bills, 62%
10. Arizona Cardinals, 62%
11. Dallas Cowboys, 61%
12. New York Giants, 61%
13. Chicago Bears, 61%
14. Kansas City Chiefs, 60%
15. Detroit Lions, 59%
16. New York Jets, 59%
17. Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 58%
18. New England Patriots, 58%
19. Philadelphia Eagles, 58%
20. Los Angeles Chargers, 58%
21. Washington Redskins, 58%
22. Los Angeles Rams, 57%
23. Minnesota Vikings, 57%
24. Jacksonville Jaguars, 56%
25. New Orleans Saints, 56%
26. San Francisco 49ers, 55%
27. Denver Broncos, 55%
28. Seattle Seahawks, 54%
29. Atlanta Falcons, 50%
30. Carolina Panthers, 50%
31. Cincinnati Bengals, 47%
32. Miami Dolphins, 41%

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard#pbwrteam

 

 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

23 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

To which team are you referring to with a top 5-10 Oline?

2019 Team Pass Block Win Rate

1. Green Bay Packers, 72%
2. Baltimore Ravens, 69%
3. Indianapolis Colts, 65%
4. Tennessee Titans, 63%
5. Oakland Raiders, 63%
6. Cleveland Browns, 63%
7. Pittsburgh Steelers, 62%
8. Houston Texans, 62%
9. Buffalo Bills, 62%
10. Arizona Cardinals, 62%
11. Dallas Cowboys, 61%
12. New York Giants, 61%
13. Chicago Bears, 61%
14. Kansas City Chiefs, 60%
15. Detroit Lions, 59%
16. New York Jets, 59%
17. Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 58%
18. New England Patriots, 58%
19. Philadelphia Eagles, 58%
20. Los Angeles Chargers, 58%
21. Washington Redskins, 58%
22. Los Angeles Rams, 57%
23. Minnesota Vikings, 57%
24. Jacksonville Jaguars, 56%
25. New Orleans Saints, 56%
26. San Francisco 49ers, 55%
27. Denver Broncos, 55%
28. Seattle Seahawks, 54%
29. Atlanta Falcons, 50%
30. Carolina Panthers, 50%
31. Cincinnati Bengals, 47%
32. Miami Dolphins, 41%

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard#pbwrteam

 

 

You have your article with your narrative, I have mine.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-all-32-units-entering-the-2020-nfl-season

“

3. DALLAS COWBOYS

The Cowboys' offensive line annually ranks among the league’s best, and their unit finished fourth in our 2019 end-of-season rankings. They’ve trotted out premier players at three spots on the line for multiple years now, though center Travis Frederickis retiring after landing PFF All-Decade honors. Left tackle Tyron Smith remains one of the NFL’s best, earning a 91.1 overall grade since 2015 that ranks fourth — though he’s only graded at 82.7 over the past three years, good for 11th-best during that time. Smith has battled injuries in recent years, and he’s not what he once was in pass protection, but he can still handle the league’s best and is rarely beaten in the run game. Right guard Zack Martin is the other star on the line, an all-around technician who will battle Quenton Nelson for the distinction of the league’s best guard. Martin’s 91.4 overall grade since 2015 ranks first among guards. He also ranks second in pass-blocking grade and fourth in run-blocking grade. 

Replacing Frederick at center will be an issue even though he was a shell of his former All-Pro self last season. Joe Looney is first in line at center, but the last time he started a full season was in 2018, and he only graded at 52.9 overall — including a 46.3 run-blocking grade that doesn't come close to matching Frederick’s output. Keep an eye on rookie fourth-round pick Tyler Biadasz, who had a fantastic career at Wisconsin. With the Badgers, he had the highest percentage of positively graded blocks in the run game among interior offensive linemen in the draft class. But he still has room to grow in pass protection, where he had just a 69.3 grade on true pass sets last season. 

At right tackle, La’el Collins had a breakout 2019 season with a career-high 86.0 overall grade, including the No. 3 run-blocking grade (88.6) among tackles. At left guard, Connor Williamsenters his third season, a pivotal year for an offensive lineman's development. Williams has ranked 53rd and 46th among guards in his two NFL seasons, so he’s capable of providing mid-level play, but expectations are much higher for the 2018 second-round pick. Dallas loses a key piece in Frederick, but Collins’ emergence keeps them in the mix to rank among the best lines once again in 2020.”

 

There isn’t one GM in football that doesn’t think we have a top 5 offensive line. Wtf are we talking about. 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[Drew 2922]

And then that same publication will turn around and say Zeke isn't a top 5 RB.

Fact is the Cowboys have NOT had a Top 3 OL since 2016.  2017 was derailed by horrendous OL play(remember Chaz Green?), 2018 no Fred and LG was an adventure, and 2019 Fred was back but clearly not elite, LG was still an issue. 

They've always been better at run blocking that pass blocking, and you didn't need to see Pass Block win rate% to know that.

Anyone claiming the Cowboys have a Top 5 OL is still pretending they're the same OL from 2014-2016 and they haven't been that in years.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

Ok Drew. I’m sure pro football focus has done a little more research than you have. But then again, I get why you would easily dismiss anything that doesn’t line up with what you think you already know. We have 2 (maybe 3) lineman that 90% of teams would trade their guy for ours straight up. But keep telling yourself that there are 5 offensive lines better than ours.

[futureman 22698]

shut the fuck up, drew.  

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

Also, I feel like this hasn’t been talked about enough. We’re about to play this season without D-Law, aren’t we? His wife is like 3 months pregnant, and he can opt out of this season with no penalty. If he doesn’t play, I don’t see a scenario where our defense bounces back. Not after losing its two best players. He’s the biggest name player that has hinted at sitting so far.

Edited July 25, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[Drew 2922]

12 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Ok Drew. I’m sure pro football focus has done a little more research than you have. But then again, I get why you would easily dismiss anything that doesn’t line up with what you think you already know. We have 2 (maybe 3) lineman that 90% of teams would trade their guy for ours straight up. But keep telling yourself that there are 5 offensive lines better than ours.

Dude really? You literally dismissed catdaddyhorn's article because it said something different than the article you posted.

PFF has been criticized for YEARS, even on this board a ton.  They are flat laughed at by many analytic types. 

If you honestly think the OL was Top 3-5 the last few years than  you are way more gullible than me.  BTW I've never said the OL was bad(except 2017, it was horrendous, especially the entire left side particularly when Tryon went out).  2018 and 2019 they were solid, not great.  That's been my contention. This myth that the Cowboys have had an elite OL(and thus the anti Dak arguments because he has this great OL) when in reality it was above average to good at times.  But nowhere near the dominant 2014-2016 years.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

20 minutes ago, Drew said:

Dude really? You literally dismissed catdaddyhorn's article because it said something different than the article you posted.

PFF has been criticized for YEARS, even on this board a ton.  They are flat laughed at by many analytic types. 

If you honestly think the OL was Top 3-5 the last few years than  you are way more gullible than me.  BTW I've never said the OL was bad(except 2017, it was horrendous, especially the entire left side particularly when Tryon went out).  2018 and 2019 they were solid, not great.  That's been my contention. This myth that the Cowboys have had an elite OL(and thus the anti Dak arguments because he has this great OL) when in reality it was above average to good at times.  But nowhere near the dominant 2014-2016 years.

I didn’t completely dismiss the article, but it was one article that showed how they graded our offensive lines pass blocking. Pro football focus literally spends hours and hours dedicated to breaking down film and giving out these grades. They are as respected as anyone in the community at what they do. But you dismiss it because it doesn’t fit your narrative. 
 

a lot of confirmation bias going on in this thread (myself included) but there aren’t 5 offensive lines better than ours. There just aren’t. You love pro football focus when it says we had one of the 3 best draft classes, but you don’t like it when it says we have a top 3 offensive line heading into 2020

Edited July 25, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[TornACL 7792]

Part of the problem is that this OL was clearly the best in the league for that little run there, so even a dip in performance makes them seem much worse to Dallas fans than they actually are versus the rest of the league. 

Part of the problem is also that this thread is full of complete dumbasses. But that's a subject for another day. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

1 minute ago, TornACL said:

Part of the problem is that this OL was clearly the best in the league for that little run there, so even a dip in performance makes them seem much worse to Dallas fans than they actually are versus the rest of the league. 

Part of the problem is also that this thread is full of complete dumbasses. But that's a subject for another day. 

Everything you said is true (including the dumbasses. Myself included). But god damn the bold is the fucking truth 

[C-Man 27779]

And then that same publication will turn around and say Zeke isn't a top 5 RB.
Fact is the Cowboys have NOT had a Top 3 OL since 2016.  2017 was derailed by horrendous OL play(remember Chaz Green?), 2018 no Fred and LG was an adventure, and 2019 Fred was back but clearly not elite, LG was still an issue. 
They've always been better at run blocking that pass blocking, and you didn't need to see Pass Block win rate% to know that.
Anyone claiming the Cowboys have a Top 5 OL is still pretending they're the same OL from 2014-2016 and they haven't been that in years.

I remember Chaz Green. I seem to recall you defending that draft pick quite strongly for a long time.

[Drew 2922]

I mean that's obviously true, plus Dallas fans, in general, are a beating, ALL of us included.

But honestly, they haven't been elite for several years. It's just perception...like Romo being horrible in clutch was a perception when it was absolutely not the case.

[Drew 2922]

26 minutes ago, C-Man said:

 

I remember Chaz Green. I seem to recall you defending that draft pick quite strongly for a long time.

 

Yep and I ate massive amounts of Crow for that.  He was not bad his first year and even filled in that year for Tyron in 2014 I believe without much of a drop off.  But after that and with the injuries he never justified the pick.   I have never been one to shy away from admitting when I'm wrong.  Problem is there are very few who will ever do that...but instead will run away and hide, until the next time they can pretend they were right all along.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

16 minutes ago, Drew said:

I mean that's obviously true, plus Dallas fans, in general, are a beating, ALL of us included.

But honestly, they haven't been elite for several years. It's just perception...like Romo being horrible in clutch was a perception when it was absolutely not the case.

How many different websites/publications would do you want me to site that says we have a top 5 offensive line heading into 2020? Like, at what point would you admit you’re wrong on this one? Because right now i can list 3 different credible ones that all say the same thing. All of which do a lot more research than you. All of which dedicate their day to breaking down film. All of them have us as a top 5 offensive line.

 

But I’m sure all of them were just gullible and didn’t do any actual research. I’m sure your eye test is more credible 

Edited July 25, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[totallynotabuttpirate 5484]

9 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

How many different websites/publications would do you want me to site that says we have a top 5 offensive line heading into 2020? Like, at what point would you admit you’re wrong on this one? Because right now i can list 3 different credible ones that all say the same thing. All of which do a lot more research than you. All of which dedicate their day to breaking down film. All of them have us as a top 5 offensive line.

 

But I’m sure all of them were just gullible and didn’t do any actual research and your eye test is more credible 

Do you have a stat for pass protection rating on 3rd downs? What about against teams with winning records? Or teams outside the NFC East? 

I'd like to see the offensive line  ratings in the 4th quarter. If we're going to go solely with stats, much more are needed. We have 87 different ratings and breakdowns for QBs, and like 3 for olineman. 

That's what most people mean by the eye test. The last dominant oline I saw was Dak's rookie year. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by totallynotabuttpirate

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

42 minutes ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

Do you have a stat for pass protection rating on 3rd downs? What about against teams with winning records? Or teams outside the NFC East? 

I'd like to see the offensive line  ratings in the 4th quarter. If we're going to go solely with stats, much more are needed. We have 87 different ratings and breakdowns for QBs, and like 3 for olineman. 

That's what most people mean by the eye test. The last dominant oline I saw was Dak's rookie year. 

We’re arguing two different things. That oline that you’re referencing from 2014-2016was one of the best of the decade. The one we have right now isn’t dominant to that degree, nor is any oline in the league. But it’s still really fucking good, and it’s still a top 5 offensive line in the league. You don’t have to have a dominant oline to have a top 5 oline. Most teams don’t put that kind of resources into building an oline. We still have 2 guys (maybe 3) that 90% of coaches would trade their guy for ours straight up

those 2 being Martin at LG and Collins at RT. I’m not even Including a healthy Smith, who is still probably top 5 at his position when healthy

 

either way, my main point still stands. There are plenty of guys that can say “well if i had Dak’s oline and running back I’d be pretty good too”

Edited July 25, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

@youdunnf'dup

I agree with the idea that there isn't much that separates the top 7 or 8 Olines because there doesn't seem to be an exceptionally dominant OL among them.  My only real pushback on the PFF projection of the Cowboys is there doesn't seem to be any consideration of the 2 huge question marks we have entering the season.  Center and LG aren't exactly solidified and I dont really see how one can arrive at such a high valuation with the middle of the Oline being a potential liability. Additionally,  Tyron's recent dependability issues have to be another knock against a high evaluation as well. 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

33 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

@youdunnf'dup

I agree with the idea that there isn't much that separates the top 7 or 8 Olines because there doesn't seem to be an exceptionally dominant OL among them.  My only real pushback on the PFF projection of the Cowboys is there doesn't seem to be any consideration of the 2 huge question marks we have entering the season.  Center and LG aren't exactly solidified and I dont really see how one can arrive at such a high valuation with the middle of the Oline being a potential liability. Additionally,  Tyron's recent dependability issues have to be another knock against a high evaluation as well. 

Agree with everything you said, but I’d love to hear the question marks for the other 31 team’s offensive lines. Because outside of the obvious teams (the colts, and saints), I would imagine most teams and their oline question marks are a lot more glaring than ours. 
 

And your point on Smith is valid, but when he’s on the field (banged up or not) he’s still one of the best LT in the game. 
 

The line has regressed a ton since 2016, there’s no disputing that. But they’ve regressed from being arguably the most dominant oline of the decade to merely being a top 5 offensive line that is no longer viewed as dominant. Now, the unit is just viewed as....really good. Better than the vast majority 

Edited July 25, 2020 by youdunnf'dup

[Jive Turkey 12997]

no Jamal Adams.  He's going to the Kraken Seahawks.

 

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

We play them week 2. 100% chance he creates at least one turnover and has a pretty big day. He wanted to come to Dallas...

[Catdaddyhorn 3467]

35 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

no Jamal Adams.  He's going to the Kraken Seahawks.

 

If that was the price for Adams I’m glad we didn’t pay it.

[Trey3216 15452]

19 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

We play them week 2. 100% chance he creates at least one turnover and has a pretty big day. He wanted to come to Dallas...

Quite possibly, but we weren’t paying that kind of ransom either.    This reeks of A Pete Carroll last gasp 

[totallynotabuttpirate 5484]

All that for a box safety. Now they also have the honor of meeting his $20mil a year contract demands. 

This screams of a pre-2010 Jerruh move. 

 

[Patrick Bateman 3966]

51 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

We play them week 2. 100% chance he creates at least one turnover and has a pretty big day. He wanted to come to Dallas...

You gonna give up 2 1's and a 3rd for him?  Good player but no safety is worth that.