Luka Doncic

[shadow_operative 15,932]

Royal Ivey was a better NBA player than Drazen Petrovic, because playing for longer = you're automatically better than anyone who played for less time. 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

17 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

Royal Ivey was a better NBA player than Drazen Petrovic, because playing for longer = you're automatically better than anyone who played for less time. 

This is ridiculous and you know it.  Dirk made an all-nba team for 12  consecutive years.  1st team 4 times, 2nd team 5 times, and 3rd team 3 times.  Let’s let Luka put up 4 or 5 of those before we kick Dirk to the curb.

[TommyGufano 6,021]

6 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

i agree. that's what i was thinking earlier- i was wondering where Dirk would rank among the best players in the league during his peak; and even during his MVP season i really don't see an argument that he was ever the best player in the league. Luka is still a baby who is playing in an era where still-young stars like Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, KAT, Zion, Ja, etc all play, along with no shortage of all-time greats like LBJ, KD, CP3, Harden etc who are still active, and yet Luka appears to be a guy who will be a top 3 player in the league for the next decade+. Luka is in a different stratosphere than Dirk ever was, and nobody who isn't from DFW would say otherwise. 

Dirk led the league in WS/48 for 3 straight seasons. Sure he didn't share the court with legends like KAT and Ja Morant, but there was a small collection of players who didn't suck playing between 2004-2007.

We understand that your feelings were deeply hurt when it appeared KD was ascending only to be punked in the 2011 WCF. It's time to let that go. Dirk and Luka were/are both excellent. I hope like hell Luka surpasses Dirk; it hasn't happened yet. Really hope he shows out in the playoffs.

[ztejas 43,412]

Luka is about as good already as Dirk was in his best regular seasons:

http://bkref.com/tiny/0IoOT

They are actually very similar advanced stats wise. Dirk turned the ball over less and scored more efficiently - which are both hugely important metrics. Dirk's stocks numbers are better. Luka obviously assists much more - I guess the argument kind of comes down to how much you value his assists. They both trend average to below average on defense. Luka's USG% is much higher so obviously his raw offensive numbers are going to be higher. I'm not sure I could say who is more valuable to an offense - I think it depends on what you are looking for and if you already have a good ball distributor.  

Dirk of course had two Lion's share Finals runs. 2011 was absolutely special, going through Kobe, Durant and LeBron. 

So I mean it depends on what you are arguing. Is Luka as good of a player right now as Dirk ever was in his career? Sure. Is Luka anywhere near Dirk on an all-time-greatests list? Absolutely not. He hasn't even played in a playoff game yet.

I mean this debate is kind of like if you were trying to argue that Anthony Davis is a better player than Charles Barkley ever was. Maybe he is, but it's just too early for those types of discussions.

[Pato del Muerto 52,487]

Does luka deserve to be an mvp finalist over harden?  

[cmontexas 3,270]

A week ago Harden dropped 49 to beat the Mavs and shut Luka down defensively the last few minutes of the 4th/OT.

So nah

[hundredTT 577]

17 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

Better than Dirk? He did it for a few decades and carried an underdog team to a NBA title and you want to say a 2nd year player is better? Tap the brakes. You want to say is Luka ahead of Dirk in his 2nd year than Dirk was his 2nd year? Or will Luka in the end be better than Dirk?

But to say Luka right now is already better than Dirk was at his peak is ludicrous. Don't get caught up in the moment when judging a 2 decade career to a less than 2 year career.

All this right here. Dirk's play in 2011 especially in the playoffs and into the finals was some of the best basketball I've ever seen. And I'm a Spurs fan who hated the Mavs then, but respected Dirk always. Luka is doing some special stuff, and I'm jealous as fuck yall have him. But let's see him do it on the biggest stage before all this type of talk. It sure looks like Luka's trajectory could land him near the top, but he has to prove it first - which he has plenty of time to do. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

7 hours ago, ztejas said:

. 

So I mean it depends on what you are arguing. Is Luka as good of a player right now as Dirk ever was in his career? Sure. Is Luka anywhere near Dirk on an all-time-greatests list? Absolutely not. He hasn't even played in a playoff game yet.

That's all i've been saying this entire time. Greatness involves longevity; talent/ability/impact do not. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

 

 

[52-80 19,147]

can luka doncic fit in a mini cooper?  dont think so

 

 

 

 

[hobbes2702 13,029]

On 8/9/2020 at 8:17 AM, shadow_operative said:

no, no it doesn't. not in this discussion. unless of course you think that Bartolo Colon and  Tim Hudson were better pitchers than Sandy Koufax and Doc Golden, in which case at least you're consistent. 

You’re bad at comparisons and it’s hurting your valid point

[shadow_operative 15,932]

5 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

You’re bad at comparisons and it’s hurting your valid point

no, i'm just hyperbolic and bombastic when i feel that people are (almost intentionally?) missing my point. you can only repeat that "better" is different from "greater" so many times.

Edited August 10, 2020 by shadow_operative

[hobbes2702 13,029]

1 minute ago, shadow_operative said:

no, i'm just hyperbolic and bombastic when i feel that people are needlessly (intentionally?) missing my point.

Let us know how that works out for you.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Let us know how that works out for you.

well, to this point stating in plain English that "better" is different from "greater" over and over and over hasn't gotten the message through, so here we are.

Edited August 10, 2020 by shadow_operative

[hobbes2702 13,029]

4 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

well, to this point stating in plain English that "better" is different from "greater" over and over and over hasn't gotten the message through, so here we are.

Yea it’s almost like people can’t agree on that entirely subjective debate.

[TommyGufano 6,021]

On 8/8/2020 at 11:55 PM, shadow_operative said:

Luka is better than Dirk and it's not even remotely close. The difference is laughable, and "longevity!!!!" is not a legit argument in Dirk's favor. Doncic is already superior to Dirk in nearly every facet of the game. This argument is so tired and stupid by now, it would be like screaming and getting upset at anyone who said in 1999 that Randy Moss was better than Steve Largent or Art Monk; it's not even remotely close. Maybe Luka has a Livingston type injury tomorrow and never plays again; doesn't change the fact that today he is better at playing basketball than Dirk ever was, and it is not even a little bit close. 

 

 

On 8/9/2020 at 10:18 AM, ztejas said:

Luka is about as good already as Dirk was in his best regular seasons:

http://bkref.com/tiny/0IoOT

They are actually very similar advanced stats wise. Dirk turned the ball over less and scored more efficiently - which are both hugely important metrics. Dirk's stocks numbers are better. Luka obviously assists much more - I guess the argument kind of comes down to how much you value his assists. They both trend average to below average on defense. Luka's USG% is much higher so obviously his raw offensive numbers are going to be higher. I'm not sure I could say who is more valuable to an offense - I think it depends on what you are looking for and if you already have a good ball distributor.  

Dirk of course had two Lion's share Finals runs. 2011 was absolutely special, going through Kobe, Durant and LeBron. 

So I mean it depends on what you are arguing. Is Luka as good of a player right now as Dirk ever was in his career? Sure. Is Luka anywhere near Dirk on an all-time-greatests list? Absolutely not. He hasn't even played in a playoff game yet.

I mean this debate is kind of like if you were trying to argue that Anthony Davis is a better player than Charles Barkley ever was. Maybe he is, but it's just too early for those types of discussions.

On 8/9/2020 at 5:22 PM, shadow_operative said:

That's all i've been saying this entire time. Greatness involves longevity; talent/ability/impact do not. 

If "what you were saying this entire time" were that Luka is about as good already as Dirk was, I don't think there'd have been all that much of a reaction.

But you said he's better than Dirk and it isn't even close. Which is dumb.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

43 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Yea it’s almost like people can’t agree on that entirely subjective debate.

there's nothing subjective about it. you either understand the difference in greatness vs talent or you don't. which one is better at basketball vs which one had a greater career. two different things. it's that simple, and it should not be a difficult concept for adults to understand, yet somehow it is. and you wonder why i make such bombastic analogies. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

29 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

 

If "what you were saying this entire time" were that Luka is about as good already as Dirk was, I don't think there'd have been all that much of a reaction.

But you said he's better than Dirk and it isn't even close. Which is dumb.

Luka is a much better athlete, a much better ball handler, a much better passer, has far  superior court vision, he does more to make his teammates better, he plays/defends more positions and is far more versatile than Dirk. Both are equally meh at defending, and Luka isn't as good of a shooter as Dirk (although he's already a great all around scorer). to me that's not close. 

"but, but Dirk did it for long! Dirk is an NBA champion! He's an MVP!" ok. and which one is a better all around basketball player? It's Luka. He's on the LeBron James, Kobe Bryant trajectory as a 20 year old. I don't need to wait to see how many games he wins in the next ten years before my eyeballs tell me that is better at basketball than Dirk in his prime was. 

[Kermit 3,156]

So is this Derka’s new handle?

[ztejas 43,412]

2 minutes ago, Kermit said:

So is this Derka’s new handle?

I guess. He reads like a Derka with less filter and self awareness. Maybe that's the shtick.

[hobbes2702 13,029]

1 hour ago, shadow_operative said:

there's nothing subjective about it. you either understand the difference in greatness vs talent or you don't. which one is better at basketball vs which one had a greater career. two different things. it's that simple, and it should not be a difficult concept for adults to understand, yet somehow it is. and you wonder why i make such bombastic analogies. 

Well your fucking terrible comparisons make it seem as though you don’t understand that distinction yourself. Which is the problem.

And it’s still entirely subjective. Luka has some skills Dirk didn’t have and so does Dirk. I’d rather have Dirk than Luka to matchup against the Heat team that Dirk beat in the finals. Luka can be more talented but that doesn’t mean he’s “better” at basketball. You seem to not understand that part.

Is Luka “better” than Bird? Magic? Lebron? Is he more talented than them? And better for what? Are they playing 1s? Or do I need to beat the Heatles? All of these things are part of being a “better” basketball player. 
 

Luka may have a larger accumulation of skills but that does not mean he’s a “better” basketball player in and of itself.

Edited August 11, 2020 by hobbes2702

[shadow_operative 15,932]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

Is Luka “better” than Bird? Magic? Lebron? Is he more talented than them? 

No, he's not, but he is better and more talented than Dirk. The rest of your post is you creating hypotheticals which you yourself don't even answer, because the more hypotheticals you throw out there, the more times you come to the conclusion that Luka Doncic is better at basketball than Dirk was. 

"Having more talent doesn't mean you're a better player." That's correct. Look no further than J'Covan Brown for an example of me extolling this very message from a decade ago. but we aren't talking about J'Covan Brown vs Royal Ivey, we're talking about two other specific people, and this case, the guy who is more talented is in fact a better all around basketball player than the lesser talented guy.

"are we playing 1's or are we trying to beat the Heatles". lol, what a disingenuous question. instead of asking, "are we talking 1 v 1 talent or are we talking building a team around this player?", which would have been a fair question (and the answer would be Luka both times), you instead brought up the super specific scenario of the 2011 Mavs, a team that was specifically built around Dirk Nowitzki, and then asked me if Luka at 20 could step into Dirk's shoes and win those specific playoffs. What a totally legit and fair scenario! lol

Seriously dude, this is not hard. you can dance around it all you want, but its simple: which of them is better at basketball? if you insist on having a hypothetical to answer, then answer this one: if you had to build a basketball team and your #1 pick had to either be 2020 Luka or 2011 Dirk, who would you take? I'd better dollars to donuts that the overwhelming majority of NBA GM's would take Luka, but that's only because of his superior skill set, athleticism, versatility, and overall game. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by shadow_operative

[SilasCoade 2,622]

1 hour ago, Kermit said:

So is this Derka’s new handle?

 

48 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

No, he's not, but he is better and more talented than Dirk. The rest of your post is you creating hypotheticals which you yourself don't even answer, because the more hypotheticals you throw out there, the more times you come to the conclusion that Luka Doncic is better at basketball than Dirk was. 

"Having more talent doesn't mean you're a better player." That's correct. Look no further than J'Covan Brown for an example of me extolling this very message from a decade ago. but we aren't talking about J'Covan Brown vs Royal Ivey, we're talking about two other specific people, and this case, the guy who is more talented is in fact a better all around basketball player than the lesser talented guy.

"are we playing 1's or are we trying to beat the Heatles". lol, what a disingenuous question. instead of asking, "are we talking 1 v 1 talent or are we talking building a team around this player?", which would have been a fair question (and the answer would be Luka both times), you instead brought up the super specific scenario of the 2011 Mavs, a team that was specifically built around Dirk Nowitzki, and then asked me if Luka at 20 could step into Dirk's shoes and win those specific playoffs. What a totally legit and fair scenario! lol

Seriously dude, this is not hard. you can dance around it all you want, but its simple: which of them is better at basketball? if you insist on having a hypothetical to answer, then answer this one: if you had to build a basketball team and your #1 pick had to either be 2020 Luka or 2011 Dirk, who would you take? I'd better dollars to donuts that the overwhelming majority of NBA GM's would take Luka, but that's only because of his superior skill set, athleticism, versatility, and overall game. 

Yep

[shadow_operative 15,932]

man, nothing gets by you guys.

[aggie08 21,492]

I don't need 10+ years of Luka to declare him better than Dirk...but can I get, like, 2 or 3 playoff games at least? There's a very good chance that Dallas won't get out of the first round this year. That's not Luka's fault necessarily...he's fucking 21, and the rest of the team isn't particular good. But, with Prime Dirk, the question was how far they'd go in the postseason and if this was their year, not if they'd win a round. The one time that they lost in the first round, it was monumental. None of those teams were brimming with All-Stars either. So yeah, for the 37th time, most of us are going to need to see how his game translates to May, err, September basketball (probably really fucking well) and his impact therein.

Pretty much everyone--including Dirk--thinks that Luka will surpass Dirk in months, not years, but we still need to see it. I won't say that regular season stats don't matter--you're still battling other NBA players every night--but, with offenses built how they are in today's game, they've never mattered less. I mean, unless you really think that Trae Young put together one of the 10 best point guard seasons of all-time, then I don't know what to tell you.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

so many disingenuous hypotheticals/comparisons, you'd think everyone in here is derka. do you think that Trae Young is in the same class as Luka Doncic? of course you don't. and these lofty opinions on Doncic aren't even new- there were NBA people screaming that this was a generational talent when he was at Real Madrid, and guess what? He is. the biggest difference in Doncic and LeBron James is that LBJ was on TV for three years before jointing the league. Well that and athleticism, but even Magic and Bird pale in comparison to LBJ athletically. Doncic is a super elite talent- a Kobe, a LeBron, a Hakeem, a Duncan; I don't need to watch him play any more than I already have to see what's right in front of me. apparently you guys do. i don't. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by shadow_operative

[aggie08 21,492]

We all see that he's fucking amazing and on his way to be one of the best to ever play, Derka. Fucking stop.

My point was, there's virtually nothing that Luka can do in regular season basketball to make me say, "Yep, he's already better than Dirk." Maybe that's unfair, but it is what it is. There's always a chance, however slight, that he'll James Harden himself and be more Peyton Manning than Tom Brady.

But, seeing how brilliant Luka is, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we're all back here in a month saying, "Yep, he's already better than Dirk."

Edited August 11, 2020 by aggie08

[aggie08 21,492]

If you go back to the 2018 draft thread, you'll see that many of the same people that you're "arguing" with now are the same ones absolutely flabbergasted that Luka wasn't the #1 pick, let alone falling to 3. I can assure you that you're not alone in thinking that he's generational.

Edited August 11, 2020 by aggie08

[CBT 1,282]

Dirk is the greatest player in the history of basketball. The question is when will Luka push him to number two. 

[hobbes2702 13,029]

7 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

so many disingenuous hypotheticals/comparisons, you'd think everyone in here is derka. do you think that Trae Young is in the same class as Luka Doncic? of course you don't. and these lofty opinions on Doncic aren't even new- there were NBA people screaming that this was a generational talent when he was at Real Madrid, and guess what? He is. the biggest difference in Doncic and LeBron James is that LBJ was on TV for three years before jointing the league. Well that and athleticism, but even Magic and Bird pale in comparison to LBJ athletically. Doncic is a super elite talent- a Kobe, a LeBron, a Hakeem, a Duncan; I don't need to watch him play any more than I already have to see what's right in front of me. apparently you guys do. i don't. 

Comparing Dirk to Bartolo Colon is the most disingenuous comparison on this website.

[ztejas 43,412]

9 hours ago, aggie08 said:

But, with Prime Dirk, the question was how far they'd go in the postseason and if this was their year, not if they'd win a round. The one time that they lost in the first round, it was monumental.

Lol. Might want to brush up on your NBA history there. Dirk's playoff record is pretty poor. He only played in the WCF 3 times. 

 

14 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

you instead brought up the super specific scenario of the 2011 Mavs, a team that was specifically built around Dirk Nowitzki, and then asked me if Luka at 20 could step into Dirk's shoes and win those specific playoffs. What a totally legit and fair scenario! lol

Seems like a relevant hypothetical to me if you're claiming that Luka is already a better player. 

[aggie08 21,492]

12 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Lol. Might want to brush up on your NBA history there. Dirk's playoff record is pretty poor. He only played in the WCF 3 times. 

Yeah, fair enough. I wasn't trying to say Dirk's playoff dependability was on the level of LeBron or TD or anything, just that they usually advanced a round or two in his prime. But I admittedly forgot how many times the Mavs were one-and done in the postseason. It obviously wasn't just that one Warriors series.

[gsoda3 3,248]

take a step back derka.  you're yelling at people who aren't saying things too different from yourself.

 

dirk's an all time great.  luka's not (yet).  

luka has more statistically measurable skill than dirk.  dirk had intangible qualities which elevated him into the realm of GOAT.  

there's a reason we call luka baby goat.

 

 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

17 neg reps in a row. that's pretty pathetic even for you @immortal13. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by shadow_operative

[shadow_operative 15,932]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

Lol. Might want to brush up on your NBA history there. Dirk's playoff record is pretty poor. He only played in the WCF 3 times. 

 

Seems like a relevant hypothetical to me if you're claiming that Luka is already a better player. 

it's literally a team that was built around Dirk and his specific skill set. it's not a fair comparison at all. For example Jason Kidd is no longer even needed on the team with Luka, and he was a pretty huge part of that title run (and we've already established that Dirk was only just fine, and not spectacular or "the reason" that the Mavs beat the Heat. he needed guys like Kidd to win that title.) If/when the Mavs build a team around Luka and his point-forward skills, do you think that Dirk could just replace him and everything would be the same? of course not. they're different players with different skill sets. but which one would you rather build a team around if you had to pick? the guy with a limited skill and athleticism, or the guy who has better handle, vision, passing ability, athleticism, all around scoring, etc?

 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

for me i don't know how anyone can get past the gulf in mobility between the two players. Dirk is not mobile. He cannot beat people off the dribble, he can't get out and lead the break in transition, he can't slash and get to the rim (where Luka can either finish or kick to a shooter)- I mean that's the most glaring thing about all of this to me.

There have been plenty of good/impactful/all star/even MVP caliber players who aren't particularly mobile- look no further than my man crush Jokic, or Rudy Gobert, or LaMarcus Aldridge, or Pau and Marc Gasol; all really good-great players who aren't mobile. So don't take this as some huge slight against Dirk, it's just a fact- his lack of mobility (and the  lack of accompanying skill sets, eg the dribble drive, taking guys 1 v 1, leading the break) is a pretty glaring mark against him when you're trying to argue that he's an all around better basketball player than Luka Doncic. 

 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

edit: was gonna add this to the previous post but it timed out.

 

and before five Mavs fans come storming the thread like angry Mac with youtube videos of Dirk driving with the ball, let me be crystal clear here- we're talking guard skills here. ball handling; having the dribble-drive/taking your man 1 v 1 available to you at all times. having it in one's bag. these things were not a part of Dirk's game; Luka has these traits in spades. He's a 6'7", 230 lbs, deceptively strong and athletic point-forward with guard skills who passes like Magic and scores from everywhere. he is not normal. saying that he's better than Dirk is not a diss. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by shadow_operative

[threesheets 1,672]

Lol. I'm the biggest Dirk fan on the planet and I see no need to join this stupid argument.  I win regardless. 

[aggie08 21,492]

8 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

but which one would you rather build a team around if you had to pick?

 

3 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

a pretty glaring mark against him when you're trying to argue that he's an all around better basketball player than Luka Doncic. 

Dude, you're changing around the argument at will. I don't think anyone is arguing either of those two points. Of course we'd take Luka to build around for the future. Of course Luka has better all around skills than Dirk. So? Your point, I thought, was that Luka is better now than Dirk ever was. That's where we disagree. "Better" to me has always meant who do you want more in a tough playoff series to win and advance. You know, the entire point of the sport.

Right now, today, I'd take prime Dirk, a proven commodity, with a decade of NBA experience, who has led teams deep into the playoffs, hit big shot after big shot, and stared down and overcame KD, Russ (not that that's saying much in the postseason...damn, I've missed taking totally uncalled for shots at Brody these past few months), Duncan, Kobe, Wade, and LeBron over a 21 year old yet to play a playoff game. Ask me again in a month.

 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

28 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

"Better" to me has always meant who do you want more in a tough playoff series to win and advance. 

 

And you're allowed to have your own interpretation of what "better" means, even if it is a swiss cheese argument that essentially says, "nobody who is young can be deemed "better" than any comparable (or even obviously leas skilled) player who has won in the playoffs before." Better, to me, has always just meant better. But apparently that's just some weird quirky thing about me; using words by their actual definition. 

Your interpretation of "better" starts to look especially silly when we look at historically great players. Are you telling me that in 1990 you were telling folks that Isaiah Thomas was better than Michael Jordan? You were saying in 2004-05 that Chauncey Billups was better than LeBron James? You know you've been around here a long time, and yet I don't recall you ever posting about how Kevin Durant, unanimously hailed as the second best player in league for a 7-8 year stretch, couldn't possibly be better than all of those other guys out there who had won in the playoffs before. I mean he had two future MVP's and Serge Ibaka as teammates and he still couldn't win it all for christ's sake! So where was this opinion before now? I mean obviously D Wade was better than KD according your definition of the word. So what gives?! And you say i'm the one who keeps moving the goal posts. Come on man. 

at this point i expect every one of you to be absolutely floored in the future when Luka Doncic is still good at basketball once he's getting into the postseason. floored. 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by shadow_operative

[shadow_operative 15,932]

21 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

 

. "Better" to me has always meant who do you want more in a tough playoff series to win and advance. You know, the entire point of the sport.

 

 

one reply to this silliness obviously wasn't enough for me, because i'd be absolutely tripping to not address this: Dirk's record in the playoffs both before and after his lone title isn't even anything special. the absolute pinnacle of his playoff achievements was leading Dallas *to* the NBA Finals in 2011. he was awesome leading out to the matchup with the Heat, but by no means did he play the role of alpha male in that Finals series, where players like Jason Kidd, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, and Jason Terry were all absolutely instrumental in Dallas beating Miami.

Stop acting like Dirk is some all-time playoff great, and like it's just TOTALLY out of the realm of possibility that Luka Doncic might himself be good in the playoffs. Dirk's playoff resume is nothing special. 

 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

Take 2020 Luka and 2011 Dirk to an NBA combine. None of the scouts or coaches or GM's has ever heard of either player. Run each guy through every drill and scenario possible. Now look at the scout's grades and poll the GM's on which guy they think is a better basketball player. Anyone here who thinks it wouldn't be *unanimous* in Luka's favor is higher than giraffe pussy. And anyone else who doesn't understand that this^^^ is the definition of "which one is a better basketball player" is on some whole other shit that I can't even explain. 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

4 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

And you're allowed to have your own interpretation of what "better" means, even if it is a swiss cheese argument that essentially says, "nobody who is young can be deemed "better" than any comparable (or even obviously leas skilled) player who has won in the playoffs before." Better, to me, has always just meant better. But apparently that's just some weird quirky thing about me; using words by their actual definition. 

Your interpretation of "better" starts to look especially silly when we look at historically great players. Are you telling me that in 1990 you were telling folks that Isaiah Thomas was better than Michael Jordan? You were saying in 2004-05 that Chauncey Billups was better than LeBron James? You know you've been around here a long time, and yet I don't recall you ever posting about how Kevin Durant, unanimously hailed as the second best player in league for a 7-8 year stretch, couldn't possibly be better than all of those other guys out there who had won in the playoffs before. I mean he had two future MVP's and Serge Ibaka as teammates and he still couldn't win it all for christ's sake! So where was this opinion before now? And you say i'm the one who keeps moving the goal posts. Come on man. 

at this point i expect every one of you to be absolutely floored in the future when Luka Doncic is still good at basketball once he's getting into the postseason. floored. 

 

Another way to phrase that would be: at this point in their respective careers Luka is ahead of Dirk. If Luka continues on the path that most expect him to, he will probably end up being considered a better player than Dirk, but that is not a given because Dirk was one of the handful of great players in the NBA for a 10-15 year span.  As a diehard Mavs fan, who was one of those kids who sat under the basket and wiped the sweat off the floor with a broom for a year back when the nba still allowed kids to do that,  and whose family has had season tickets since the Mavs first season,  I assure you that I am more invested in Luka’s success than you are, and I look forward to watching him do what most of us think he will.  But he has to actually do it.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

I just realized that aggie thought/thinks that TJ Ford was a better college basketball player than Kevin Durant. the night that KD went for 37 and 23 against TTU on ESPN, aggie was sitting in front of his TV going, "Meh. He's still not better than TJ Ford. Can't be; not until we see what he does in the tourney." When he scored 25 in the 1H against KU aggie was nonplussed. When he hit the monster three to win the game for Texas in 2OT against Acie Law and A&M, aggie just shrugged. "Still not the postseason", he said. And then when KD flaked out in the tourney aggie was like, "see. I told you Kevin Durant wasn't better than TJ Ford."

you might want to rethink your definition of "better", all things considered. 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by shadow_operative

[TommyGufano 6,021]

I just realized Derka thought/thinks Markelle Fultz is a better NBA player than Donovan Mitchell because after going through pre-draft workouts it was consensus that he was worthy of a higher draft pick.

James Harden has had multiple regular seasons where he has been the league's best player, and yet after seeing his playoff performances (which I think are better than what the narrative has become), nobody (idk, maybe someone in Houston) thinks Harden is the best player in the world. That's basically what Aggie is saying. Gotta see how it stacks up when stakes are high.

LD and the Mavs have been considerably worse in the last 5 mins of close games (offense goes from best in league history to 29th in the league or something insane like that). This is a discouraging data point, since those situations more closely resemble the intensity of a playoff game. Hopefully in a week I look stupid for even suggesting there may be some sort of chink in the armor that gets exposed in high leverage moments.

 

[aggie08 21,492]

36 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

I just realized that aggie thought/thinks that TJ Ford was a better college basketball player than Kevin Durant. the night that KD went for 37 and 23 against TTU on ESPN, aggie was sitting in front of his TV going, "Meh. He's still not better than TJ Ford. Can't be; not until we see what he does in the tourney." When he scored 25 in the 1H against KU aggie was nonplussed. When he hit the monster three to win the game for Texas in 2OT against Acie Law and A&M, aggie just shrugged. "Still not the postseason", he said. And then when KD flaked out in the tourney aggie was like, "see. I told you Kevin Durant wasn't better than TJ Ford."

you might want to rethink your definition of "better", all things considered. 

 

Don't be so damn disingenuous.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

bro you know i can't help myself. 

[immortal13 4,059]

Ok back to Luca Doncic. It's just fucking nuts how little respect he gets from the refs. King Lebron verbally challenges refs as much as any player in the league and yet rarely ever gets teed up for it

[aggie08 21,492]

Also note that I haven't even said the SLIGHTEST thing negative and about Luka. I've been sold on him from the beginning. I'm just pointing out that the NBA is a grown ass man's league, and it's pretty rare for the young guys to instantly translate regular season accolades into postseason success. Experience means something. Anyone who saw LeBron's first couple of seasons knew instantly that he was going to be the best player in the league in short order...he still wasn't better than Tim Duncan at the time.

That said, in LeBron's 21 year-old season (his 3rd season and first playoffs), he went 31, 8, and 6 on 48% shooting through two rounds and took the Pistons to 7. So the precedent is there.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by aggie08

[TommyGufano 6,021]

4 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Also note that I haven't even said the SLIGHTEST thing negative and about Luka. I've been sold on him from the beginning. I'm just pointing out that the NBA is a grown ass man's league, and it's pretty rare for the young guys to instantly translate regular season accolades into postseason success. Experience means something. Anyone who saw LeBron's first couple of seasons knew instantly that he was going to be the best player in the league in short order...he still wasn't better than Tim Duncan at the time.

That said, in LeBron's 21 year-old season (his 3rd season and first playoffs), he went 31, 8, and 6 on 48% shooting through two rounds and took the Pistons to 7, including the game where he scored the Cavs' last 25 points. So the precedent is there.

 

I believe that was game 5 2007 ECF