Shohei Ohtani

[David Dennison 18,487]

Just now, Gil Bang said:

who does?

Aaron Judge.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/judgeaa01.shtml

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ohtansh01.shtml

 

[Gil Bang 25,843]

1) he doesn't bat leadoff

2) he plays in a bandbox

[David Dennison 18,487]

4 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

1) he doesn't bat leadoff

2) he plays in a bandbox

Those are good points. Judge still has better numbers. 

[dcar00 14,007]

I mean fuck the Yankees and fuck Aaron Judge but his OPS+ is 218 and Ohtani's is 181.  Judge is the better hitter.

I'd love to see them in the WS against each other

[TonyTexas 10,470]

34 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Aaron Judge.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/judgeaa01.shtml

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ohtansh01.shtml

 

 

[Firemans4Horn 17,776]

Judge is having a monster season and a first ballot hall of fame career.
But Ohtani is a unicorn that we haven’t seen since Babe Ruth. 

[David Dennison 18,487]

7 minutes ago, Firemans4Horn said:

Judge is having a monster season and a first ballot hall of fame career.
But Ohtani is a unicorn that we haven’t seen since Babe Ruth. 

He's incredible. I wish they'd cut out the DH thing and let him play in the outfield.

Maybe next year.

[Derka 5,861]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

If you go by numbers, however, he's not the best offensive player in baseball this year.

he’s a top 5 offensive player who finished fourth in the cy young voting last year despite getting hurt. there’s no historical or contemporary comparison to shohei.

[dcar00 14,007]

30 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

He's incredible. I wish they'd cut out the DH thing and let him play in the outfield.

Maybe next year.

while certainly he can play it, unless he is never going to pitch again there is no reason to risk injury in the outfield.

I think Judge probably wins MVP but Ohtani shouldn't be dinged because he is only a DH this year. Everyone knows he could play a position if needed.

[Derka 5,861]

off the top of my head judge, witt, shohei, acuña, and someone like kyle tucker or juan soto are the ~5 best offensive players. shohei also happens to be on the list of the ~5 best pitchers in the league. imagine if spencer strider played dh this season and went 50/50. that’s shohei in real life.

[ztejas 43,200]

9 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

but Ohtani shouldn't be dinged because he is only a DH this year. Everyone knows he could play a position if needed.

Yeah he could play a position but he didn't. MVP isn't supposed to be awarded to who the best player is in a vacuum. It's who was the best player and most valuable to their team over the season. 

Judge might be a really good basketball player but it doesn't have anything to do with the season he just had.

Edited September 21 by ztejas

[David Dennison 18,487]

21 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

while certainly he can play it, unless he is never going to pitch again there is no reason to risk injury in the outfield.

I think Judge probably wins MVP but Ohtani shouldn't be dinged because he is only a DH this year. Everyone knows he could play a position if needed.

Good thing there are enough MVP awards to go around for the both of them.

[dcar00 14,007]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Good thing there are enough MVP awards to go around for the both of them.

yeah he's about to match Frank Robinson.

[Sbbruin 21,690]

[Sbbruin 21,690]

Haha!!! 52!

[UTexasFight 9,365]

52/52!

he wants 60/60

 

He hit a season low in BA at .287 on Wednesday (after the first week of the season).

9 for 10 since and up to .297

[Sbbruin 21,690]

52/52!
he wants 60/60
 
He hit a season low in BA at .287 on Wednesday (after the first week of the season).
9 for 10 since and up to .297

He had that base stolen before the ball left the pitcher's hand.

[Derka 5,861]

in the history of baseball there have been 49 instances of a 50-hr season. the average sb total for those seasons is 7.4.

there have been 241 seasons where a player got 50+ steals. the average hr total for those seasons is 8.4.

this is truly uncharted territory, and again, it’s being done by one of the handful of best pitchers in all of baseball.

[ztejas 43,200]

5 minutes ago, Derka said:

in the history of baseball there have been 49 instances of a 50-hr season. the average sb total for those seasons is 7.4.

That's fucking nuts. 

[Derka 5,861]

 

[Gil Bang 25,843]

 

[BurntOrange&White 39,272]

On 9/20/2024 at 7:19 PM, David Dennison said:

Aaron Judge.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/judgeaa01.shtml

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ohtansh01.shtml

 

Judge is having the best hitting season since like 04 Barry bonds. Best American League season since the 50s 

[Gil Bang 25,843]

55 steals

[Gil Bang 25,843]

Shohei dinger #53!

[ztejas 43,200]

Have we posted this one yet?

Only two guys have ever even had both 50 home runs and 50 stolen bases in any season in their career.

Barry Bonds

And...

Brady Anderson

[TejasPedro 1,849]

Is Ohtani a safe bet for MVP?

 

[Sbbruin 21,690]

16 minutes ago, TejasPedro said:

Is Ohtani a safe bet for MVP?

 

I can't imagine he isn't a lock.  Despite Dipshit Ortiz saying he doesn't deserve it because he doesn't play the field.  If he played the field and was the worst fielding player in the league, he'd still deserve the MVP.  So what difference does it make?  

[ztejas 43,200]

1 minute ago, Sbbruin said:

I can't imagine he isn't a lock.  Despite Dipshit Ortiz saying he doesn't deserve it because he doesn't play the field.  If he played the field and was the worst fielding player in the league, he'd still deserve the MVP.  So what difference does it make?  

DH vs fielding is a good tiebreaker if one player is an above-average fielder - but isn't fielding taken into account for WAR anyway?

Shohei is at 8.4 - 2nd in the NL is Matt Chapman at 6.9. Add the 50/50 or fucking 55/55 narrative in and the fact that LAD has the best record in baseball and it should be rather unanimous. 

[Fastbreak 3,935]

Judge is a great player, maybe top 50-75 all-time.  Ohtani is in the conversation for top 5.

[BurntOrange&White 39,272]

11 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

Judge is a great player, maybe top 50-75 all-time.  Ohtani is in the conversation for top 5.

I'll need to see his pitching and/or fielding moving forward.

 

 

Also 50 stolen bags is the new 40 according to a post I saw on OTF. 

Edited September 24 by BurntOrange&White

[Fastbreak 3,935]

Per Opta Stats, since RBI became official in 1920, only one MLB player has had, over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER:

a game with 10+ RBI
a game with 6+ hits
a game with 5+ XBH
a game with 3+ HR
a game with 2+ SB

Ohtani did all of it in ONE NIGHT...

[dcar00 14,007]

Did they remove the base when he stole his 50th?

 

Edited September 25 by dcar00

[Gil Bang 25,843]

 

 

[Macanudo 12,917]

On 9/24/2024 at 3:24 AM, Fastbreak said:

Judge is a great player, maybe top 50-75 all-time.  Ohtani is in the conversation for top 5.

Recency bias is really fucking with some of yall.   Ohtani is clearly one of the best in baseball right now.  He's 38-19 with a 3.01 ERA but hasn't pitched since 2023.  Yes, he won the MVP twice while pitching "full time".   During his 2021 MVP season, he did hit 46 HRs with 100 RBIs but he also hit .257.   He was 9-2 with a 3.57 ERA.  2021 was also a down year for baseball in general.   Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.  Ohtani had the best WAR of any MVP vote getter but the novelty of pitching and hitting has really messed with some of you heads

Through 7 years as a hitter, he's good not great.   This season has been one for the record books but if his career ended now, he's not a HOFer.   

But Macanudo...  He won the MVP twice.  So did Dale Murphy who, over a 7 year stretch was one of the best in baseball as well.   And yet, Murphy is not in the HOF.  Don Mattingly, through his first 6-7 full time seasons has very similar stats and he's also not in the HOF.  Gary Sheffield had 7 very good seasons from 99-2005 and played for 22 years with 2700 hits and 500 HRs and isn't the HOF.  Manny Ramirez had 14 seasons 95-08 with similar hitting results to Ohtani (with a much better BA as well) and he's not in.  

50/50 is an amazing accomplishment but if his career ended right now, Ohtani is NOT a HOFer.  Pull your heads out of your fanboi asses.

[closetohumping 17,355]

19 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Recency bias is really fucking with some of yall.   Ohtani is clearly one of the best in baseball right now.  He's 38-19 with a 3.01 ERA but hasn't pitched since 2023.  Yes, he won the MVP twice while pitching "full time".   During his 2021 MVP season, he did hit 46 HRs with 100 RBIs but he also hit .257.   He was 9-2 with a 3.57 ERA.  2021 was also a down year for baseball in general.   Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.  Ohtani had the best WAR of any MVP vote getter but the novelty of pitching and hitting has really messed with some of you heads

Through 7 years as a hitter, he's good not great.   This season has been one for the record books but if his career ended now, he's not a HOFer.   

But Macanudo...  He won the MVP twice.  So did Dale Murphy who, over a 7 year stretch was one of the best in baseball as well.   And yet, Murphy is not in the HOF.  Don Mattingly, through his first 6-7 full time seasons has very similar stats and he's also not in the HOF.  Gary Sheffield had 7 very good seasons from 99-2005 and played for 22 years with 2700 hits and 500 HRs and isn't the HOF.  Manny Ramirez had 14 seasons 95-08 with similar hitting results to Ohtani (with a much better BA as well) and he's not in.  

50/50 is an amazing accomplishment but if his career ended right now, Ohtani is NOT a HOFer.  Pull your heads out of your fanboi asses.

What was dale murphys era?   

[closetohumping 17,355]

15 hours ago, dcar00 said:

Did they remove the base when he stole his 50th?

 

Yes. And they gave it to manny Ramirez because his peak 7 years was better than Ohtanis. 

[dcar00 14,007]

while looking up ohtani's WAR I saw this pic for single season WAR leaders on BB ref.

[hobbes2702 12,769]

3 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Recency bias is really fucking with some of yall.   Ohtani is clearly one of the best in baseball right now.  He's 38-19 with a 3.01 ERA but hasn't pitched since 2023.  Yes, he won the MVP twice while pitching "full time".   During his 2021 MVP season, he did hit 46 HRs with 100 RBIs but he also hit .257.   He was 9-2 with a 3.57 ERA.  2021 was also a down year for baseball in general.   Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.  Ohtani had the best WAR of any MVP vote getter but the novelty of pitching and hitting has really messed with some of you heads

Through 7 years as a hitter, he's good not great.   This season has been one for the record books but if his career ended now, he's not a HOFer.   

But Macanudo...  He won the MVP twice.  So did Dale Murphy who, over a 7 year stretch was one of the best in baseball as well.   And yet, Murphy is not in the HOF.  Don Mattingly, through his first 6-7 full time seasons has very similar stats and he's also not in the HOF.  Gary Sheffield had 7 very good seasons from 99-2005 and played for 22 years with 2700 hits and 500 HRs and isn't the HOF.  Manny Ramirez had 14 seasons 95-08 with similar hitting results to Ohtani (with a much better BA as well) and he's not in.  

50/50 is an amazing accomplishment but if his career ended right now, Ohtani is NOT a HOFer.  Pull your heads out of your fanboi asses.

[Macanudo 12,917]

4 hours ago, closetohumping said:

What was dale murphys era?   

0.0

Just like your IQ.

[Pam Cummings 9,532]

5 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Recency bias is really fucking with some of yall.   Ohtani is clearly one of the best in baseball right now.  He's 38-19 with a 3.01 ERA but hasn't pitched since 2023.  Yes, he won the MVP twice while pitching "full time".   During his 2021 MVP season, he did hit 46 HRs with 100 RBIs but he also hit .257.   He was 9-2 with a 3.57 ERA.  2021 was also a down year for baseball in general.   Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.  Ohtani had the best WAR of any MVP vote getter but the novelty of pitching and hitting has really messed with some of you heads

Through 7 years as a hitter, he's good not great.   This season has been one for the record books but if his career ended now, he's not a HOFer.   

But Macanudo...  He won the MVP twice.  So did Dale Murphy who, over a 7 year stretch was one of the best in baseball as well.   And yet, Murphy is not in the HOF.  Don Mattingly, through his first 6-7 full time seasons has very similar stats and he's also not in the HOF.  Gary Sheffield had 7 very good seasons from 99-2005 and played for 22 years with 2700 hits and 500 HRs and isn't the HOF.  Manny Ramirez had 14 seasons 95-08 with similar hitting results to Ohtani (with a much better BA as well) and he's not in.  

50/50 is an amazing accomplishment but if his career ended right now, Ohtani is NOT a HOFer.  Pull your heads out of your fanboi asses.

Ohtani is about to win a 3rd MVP, making your entire line of logic around Dale Murphy even more useless than it already was.

Edited September 26 by Pam Cummings

[ztejas 43,200]

5 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.

Holy shit he really did? Man - what a garbage year in the AL that must have been. Guess you can say the same about 2019 and 2023 when Semien also finished 3rd in MVP voting. 

[Macanudo 12,917]

I am not arguing that he isn't a good player.  I'm arguing that he is not one of the 5 best players in baseball history.  Fastbreak made that claim.

In the modern era (the last 20-30 years), is Ohtani better than 

Albert Pujols

Ken Griffey, Jr.

Greg Maddux

Randy Johnson

Frank Thomas

Bryce Harper

Aaron Judge

And this leaves Bonds and McGwire off the list.

Go back 50-75 years and you can add

Willie Mays

Mickey Mantle

Ted Williams

Stan Musial

Bob Gibson

Sandy Koufax

Johnny Bench

Frank Robinson

Roberto Clemente

Again, Ohtani is very good.  He's not one of the top 5 players of all time.  Judge has flirted with the Triple Crown several times and plays decent defense.  This season, Ohtani's WAR as a hitter is 8.5 and his 162 game career average is 5.3. 

Aaron Judge is 10.6 this year and a career 8.5

Ted Williams 162 game career average is 8.6

Stan Musial - 

Roberto Clemente - 6.3

Joe DiMaggio - 7.4

Jackie Robinson - 7.3

Hank Greenberg  - 6.0

Wade Boggs - 6.1

Lou Gehrig - 8.5

Mike Trout  - 9.2

Mookie Betts - 8.2

Hank Aaron - 7.0

Willie Mays - 8.4

Mickey Mantle - 7.4

Frank Robinson - 6.2

Hell Mike Piazza and Bryce Harper are at 5.0, Paul Goldschmidt 5.3 and Rickey Henderson at 5.8.  

And pitching?  Ohtani has a career average WAR of 6.0 In 6 seasons

Clayton Kershaw - 6.0 in 17 years

Tom Seaver - 5.5 in 20 years

Roger Clemens - 6.7 in 24 years

Randy Johnson - 5.8 in 22 years

Bob Gibson - 5.5 in 17 years

Mike Mussina - 5.2 in 18 years

Roy Halladay - 5.5 in 16 years

Justin Verlander - 5.2 in 19 years

Chris Sale - 5.5 in 14 years

Jacob DeGrom - 6.6 in 11 years

All that to say, he's good.  He's not one of the 5 best players ever.  It's incredible to pitch and hit the way he does.  But tap the brakes on top 5 ever.

[Helobious 9,465]

Yeah, I’ll take Judge over Ohtani:

[closetohumping 17,355]

5 hours ago, dcar00 said:

while looking up ohtani's WAR I saw this pic for single season WAR leaders on BB ref.

Looks like a civil war reenactment 

38 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Holy shit he really did? Man - what a garbage year in the AL that must have been. Guess you can say the same about 2019 and 2023 when Semien also finished 3rd in MVP voting. 

Sneaky ass Ohtani jumping in when the league sucks. 

[closetohumping 17,355]

1 hour ago, Pam Cummings said:

Ohtani is about to win a 3rd MVP, making your entire line of logic around Dale Murphy even more useless than it already was.

Last I checked The Murph didn’t play in the Marcus Semian error

[Macanudo 12,917]

42 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Holy shit he really did? Man - what a garbage year in the AL that must have been. Guess you can say the same about 2019 and 2023 when Semien also finished 3rd in MVP voting. 

Dude. 

Semien is a career .255 hitter.  His career comparables are Ian Kinsler, Dansby Swanson, Kyle Seager and Dale fucking Sveum.  

2019, 2021 and 2023 are by far Semien's best years.   Outside of those three seasons, he's only hit at or above is career average 2 times (.255 in 2018 and .257 in 2015.)  2023 was pretty much his best overall season (outside of BA and WAR, those were during 2019).  

 

[Foosters 17,688]

27 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

I am not arguing that he isn't a good player.  I'm arguing that he is not one of the 5 best players in baseball history.  Fastbreak made that claim.

In the modern era (the last 20-30 years), is Ohtani better than 

Albert Pujols

Ken Griffey, Jr.

Greg Maddux

Randy Johnson

Frank Thomas

Bryce Harper

Aaron Judge

And this leaves Bonds and McGwire off the list.

Go back 50-75 years and you can add

Willie Mays

Mickey Mantle

Ted Williams

Stan Musial

Bob Gibson

Sandy Koufax

Johnny Bench

Frank Robinson

Roberto Clemente

Again, Ohtani is very good.  He's not one of the top 5 players of all time.  Judge has flirted with the Triple Crown several times and plays decent defense.  This season, Ohtani's WAR as a hitter is 8.5 and his 162 game career average is 5.3. 

Aaron Judge is 10.6 this year and a career 8.5

Ted Williams 162 game career average is 8.6

Stan Musial - 

Roberto Clemente - 6.3

Joe DiMaggio - 7.4

Jackie Robinson - 7.3

Hank Greenberg  - 6.0

Wade Boggs - 6.1

Lou Gehrig - 8.5

Mike Trout  - 9.2

Mookie Betts - 8.2

Hank Aaron - 7.0

Willie Mays - 8.4

Mickey Mantle - 7.4

Frank Robinson - 6.2

Hell Mike Piazza and Bryce Harper are at 5.0, Paul Goldschmidt 5.3 and Rickey Henderson at 5.8.  

And pitching?  Ohtani has a career average WAR of 6.0 In 6 seasons

Clayton Kershaw - 6.0 in 17 years

Tom Seaver - 5.5 in 20 years

Roger Clemens - 6.7 in 24 years

Randy Johnson - 5.8 in 22 years

Bob Gibson - 5.5 in 17 years

Mike Mussina - 5.2 in 18 years

Roy Halladay - 5.5 in 16 years

Justin Verlander - 5.2 in 19 years

Chris Sale - 5.5 in 14 years

Jacob DeGrom - 6.6 in 11 years

All that to say, he's good.  He's not one of the 5 best players ever.  It's incredible to pitch and hit the way he does.  But tap the brakes on top 5 ever.

It seems there are different arguments here. One, does he have the requisite stats to make the hall of fame at this point? Given the Hall's preference for greatness over time, perhaps not.

That, however, has no bearing on whether he can be called the greatest baseball player of all time. If a 20 year old makes a debut, and hits 65 HRs / w 1.1+ OPS in each of his first 4 seasons, but then suffers a career ending injury, he probably wouldn't make the hall. Should you argue that Dale Murphy was a better baseball player? I guess you could. To use a similar example, is Emmitt Smith a better running back than Bo Jackson?

Of that list above, if you gave any MLB GM a hypothetical and said you get to pick one person at the beginning of their career to build a franchise around, I'm not sure most wouldn't pick Ohtani. Even over Pujols, Griffey, etc. 

 

[closetohumping 17,355]

11 minutes ago, Foosters said:

It seems there are different arguments here. One, does he have the requisite stats to make the hall of fame at this point? Given the Hall's preference for greatness over time, perhaps not.

That, however, has no bearing on whether he can be called the greatest baseball player of all time. If a 20 year old makes a debut, and hits 65 HRs / w 1.1+ OPS in each of his first 4 seasons, but then suffers a career ending injury, he probably wouldn't make the hall. Should you argue that Dale Murphy was a better baseball player? I guess you could. To use a similar example, is Emmitt Smith a better running back than Bo Jackson?

Of that list above, if you gave any MLB GM a hypothetical and said you get to pick one person at the beginning of their career to build a franchise around, I'm not sure most wouldn't pick Ohtani. Even over Pujols, Griffey, etc. 

 

Is Jeff Malone better than Wemby

[hobbes2702 12,769]

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

I am not arguing that he isn't a good player.  I'm arguing that he is not one of the 5 best players in baseball history.  Fastbreak made that claim.

In the modern era (the last 20-30 years), is Ohtani better than 

Albert Pujols

Ken Griffey, Jr.

Greg Maddux

Randy Johnson

Frank Thomas

Bryce Harper

Aaron Judge

And this leaves Bonds and McGwire off the list.

Go back 50-75 years and you can add

Willie Mays

Mickey Mantle

Ted Williams

Stan Musial

Bob Gibson

Sandy Koufax

Johnny Bench

Frank Robinson

Roberto Clemente

Again, Ohtani is very good.  He's not one of the top 5 players of all time.  Judge has flirted with the Triple Crown several times and plays decent defense.  This season, Ohtani's WAR as a hitter is 8.5 and his 162 game career average is 5.3. 

Aaron Judge is 10.6 this year and a career 8.5

Ted Williams 162 game career average is 8.6

Stan Musial - 

Roberto Clemente - 6.3

Joe DiMaggio - 7.4

Jackie Robinson - 7.3

Hank Greenberg  - 6.0

Wade Boggs - 6.1

Lou Gehrig - 8.5

Mike Trout  - 9.2

Mookie Betts - 8.2

Hank Aaron - 7.0

Willie Mays - 8.4

Mickey Mantle - 7.4

Frank Robinson - 6.2

Hell Mike Piazza and Bryce Harper are at 5.0, Paul Goldschmidt 5.3 and Rickey Henderson at 5.8.  

And pitching?  Ohtani has a career average WAR of 6.0 In 6 seasons

Clayton Kershaw - 6.0 in 17 years

Tom Seaver - 5.5 in 20 years

Roger Clemens - 6.7 in 24 years

Randy Johnson - 5.8 in 22 years

Bob Gibson - 5.5 in 17 years

Mike Mussina - 5.2 in 18 years

Roy Halladay - 5.5 in 16 years

Justin Verlander - 5.2 in 19 years

Chris Sale - 5.5 in 14 years

Jacob DeGrom - 6.6 in 11 years

All that to say, he's good.  He's not one of the 5 best players ever.  It's incredible to pitch and hit the way he does.  But tap the brakes on top 5 ever.

The whole pitching and hitting thing is the entire point. Name all the other players that are one of the 10 best pitchers and 10 best hitters at the same time. 

[hobbes2702 12,769]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

Yeah, I’ll take Judge over Ohtani:

I love the “non steroid” stipulation there as if modern baseball players don’t use PEDs. Lulz at anyone who thinks that the MLB is steroid free