Jump to content

Shohei Ohtani

Firemans4Horn

By Firemans4Horn
in Baseball

 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 536
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

shadow_operative
shadow_operative
tx 3 putt
tx 3 putt
tx 3 putt
tx 3 putt

Posted Images

Derka

Derka 6135

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

If you go by numbers, however, he's not the best offensive player in baseball this year.

he’s a top 5 offensive player who finished fourth in the cy young voting last year despite getting hurt. there’s no historical or contemporary comparison to shohei.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
dcar00

dcar00 14144

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

He's incredible. I wish they'd cut out the DH thing and let him play in the outfield.

Maybe next year.

while certainly he can play it, unless he is never going to pitch again there is no reason to risk injury in the outfield.

I think Judge probably wins MVP but Ohtani shouldn't be dinged because he is only a DH this year. Everyone knows he could play a position if needed.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Derka

Derka 6135

Posted
Posted

off the top of my head judge, witt, shohei, acuña, and someone like kyle tucker or juan soto are the ~5 best offensive players. shohei also happens to be on the list of the ~5 best pitchers in the league. imagine if spencer strider played dh this season and went 50/50. that’s shohei in real life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ztejas

ztejas 43411

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

but Ohtani shouldn't be dinged because he is only a DH this year. Everyone knows he could play a position if needed.

Yeah he could play a position but he didn't. MVP isn't supposed to be awarded to who the best player is in a vacuum. It's who was the best player and most valuable to their team over the season. 

Judge might be a really good basketball player but it doesn't have anything to do with the season he just had.

Edited by ztejas
Link to comment
Share on other sites
David Dennison

David Dennison 18837

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

while certainly he can play it, unless he is never going to pitch again there is no reason to risk injury in the outfield.

I think Judge probably wins MVP but Ohtani shouldn't be dinged because he is only a DH this year. Everyone knows he could play a position if needed.

Good thing there are enough MVP awards to go around for the both of them.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Derka

Derka 6135

Posted
Posted

in the history of baseball there have been 49 instances of a 50-hr season. the average sb total for those seasons is 7.4.

there have been 241 seasons where a player got 50+ steals. the average hr total for those seasons is 8.4.

this is truly uncharted territory, and again, it’s being done by one of the handful of best pitchers in all of baseball.

  • Hook 'Em 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sbbruin

Sbbruin 21825

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, TejasPedro said:

Is Ohtani a safe bet for MVP?

 

I can't imagine he isn't a lock.  Despite Dipshit Ortiz saying he doesn't deserve it because he doesn't play the field.  If he played the field and was the worst fielding player in the league, he'd still deserve the MVP.  So what difference does it make?  

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ztejas

ztejas 43411

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Sbbruin said:

I can't imagine he isn't a lock.  Despite Dipshit Ortiz saying he doesn't deserve it because he doesn't play the field.  If he played the field and was the worst fielding player in the league, he'd still deserve the MVP.  So what difference does it make?  

DH vs fielding is a good tiebreaker if one player is an above-average fielder - but isn't fielding taken into account for WAR anyway?

Shohei is at 8.4 - 2nd in the NL is Matt Chapman at 6.9. Add the 50/50 or fucking 55/55 narrative in and the fact that LAD has the best record in baseball and it should be rather unanimous. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Fastbreak

Fastbreak 3973

Posted
Posted

Per Opta Stats, since RBI became official in 1920, only one MLB player has had, over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER:

a game with 10+ RBI
a game with 6+ hits
a game with 5+ XBH
a game with 3+ HR
a game with 2+ SB

Ohtani did all of it in ONE NIGHT...

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Macanudo

Macanudo 12974

Posted
Posted
On 9/24/2024 at 3:24 AM, Fastbreak said:

Judge is a great player, maybe top 50-75 all-time.  Ohtani is in the conversation for top 5.

Recency bias is really fucking with some of yall.   Ohtani is clearly one of the best in baseball right now.  He's 38-19 with a 3.01 ERA but hasn't pitched since 2023.  Yes, he won the MVP twice while pitching "full time".   During his 2021 MVP season, he did hit 46 HRs with 100 RBIs but he also hit .257.   He was 9-2 with a 3.57 ERA.  2021 was also a down year for baseball in general.   Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.  Ohtani had the best WAR of any MVP vote getter but the novelty of pitching and hitting has really messed with some of you heads

Through 7 years as a hitter, he's good not great.   This season has been one for the record books but if his career ended now, he's not a HOFer.   

But Macanudo...  He won the MVP twice.  So did Dale Murphy who, over a 7 year stretch was one of the best in baseball as well.   And yet, Murphy is not in the HOF.  Don Mattingly, through his first 6-7 full time seasons has very similar stats and he's also not in the HOF.  Gary Sheffield had 7 very good seasons from 99-2005 and played for 22 years with 2700 hits and 500 HRs and isn't the HOF.  Manny Ramirez had 14 seasons 95-08 with similar hitting results to Ohtani (with a much better BA as well) and he's not in.  

50/50 is an amazing accomplishment but if his career ended right now, Ohtani is NOT a HOFer.  Pull your heads out of your fanboi asses.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
closetohumping

closetohumping 17431

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Recency bias is really fucking with some of yall.   Ohtani is clearly one of the best in baseball right now.  He's 38-19 with a 3.01 ERA but hasn't pitched since 2023.  Yes, he won the MVP twice while pitching "full time".   During his 2021 MVP season, he did hit 46 HRs with 100 RBIs but he also hit .257.   He was 9-2 with a 3.57 ERA.  2021 was also a down year for baseball in general.   Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.  Ohtani had the best WAR of any MVP vote getter but the novelty of pitching and hitting has really messed with some of you heads

Through 7 years as a hitter, he's good not great.   This season has been one for the record books but if his career ended now, he's not a HOFer.   

But Macanudo...  He won the MVP twice.  So did Dale Murphy who, over a 7 year stretch was one of the best in baseball as well.   And yet, Murphy is not in the HOF.  Don Mattingly, through his first 6-7 full time seasons has very similar stats and he's also not in the HOF.  Gary Sheffield had 7 very good seasons from 99-2005 and played for 22 years with 2700 hits and 500 HRs and isn't the HOF.  Manny Ramirez had 14 seasons 95-08 with similar hitting results to Ohtani (with a much better BA as well) and he's not in.  

50/50 is an amazing accomplishment but if his career ended right now, Ohtani is NOT a HOFer.  Pull your heads out of your fanboi asses.

What was dale murphys era?   

Link to comment
Share on other sites
hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13028

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Recency bias is really fucking with some of yall.   Ohtani is clearly one of the best in baseball right now.  He's 38-19 with a 3.01 ERA but hasn't pitched since 2023.  Yes, he won the MVP twice while pitching "full time".   During his 2021 MVP season, he did hit 46 HRs with 100 RBIs but he also hit .257.   He was 9-2 with a 3.57 ERA.  2021 was also a down year for baseball in general.   Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.  Ohtani had the best WAR of any MVP vote getter but the novelty of pitching and hitting has really messed with some of you heads

Through 7 years as a hitter, he's good not great.   This season has been one for the record books but if his career ended now, he's not a HOFer.   

But Macanudo...  He won the MVP twice.  So did Dale Murphy who, over a 7 year stretch was one of the best in baseball as well.   And yet, Murphy is not in the HOF.  Don Mattingly, through his first 6-7 full time seasons has very similar stats and he's also not in the HOF.  Gary Sheffield had 7 very good seasons from 99-2005 and played for 22 years with 2700 hits and 500 HRs and isn't the HOF.  Manny Ramirez had 14 seasons 95-08 with similar hitting results to Ohtani (with a much better BA as well) and he's not in.  

50/50 is an amazing accomplishment but if his career ended right now, Ohtani is NOT a HOFer.  Pull your heads out of your fanboi asses.

Will Ferrell Reaction GIF by MOODMAN

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9639

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Recency bias is really fucking with some of yall.   Ohtani is clearly one of the best in baseball right now.  He's 38-19 with a 3.01 ERA but hasn't pitched since 2023.  Yes, he won the MVP twice while pitching "full time".   During his 2021 MVP season, he did hit 46 HRs with 100 RBIs but he also hit .257.   He was 9-2 with a 3.57 ERA.  2021 was also a down year for baseball in general.   Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.  Ohtani had the best WAR of any MVP vote getter but the novelty of pitching and hitting has really messed with some of you heads

Through 7 years as a hitter, he's good not great.   This season has been one for the record books but if his career ended now, he's not a HOFer.   

But Macanudo...  He won the MVP twice.  So did Dale Murphy who, over a 7 year stretch was one of the best in baseball as well.   And yet, Murphy is not in the HOF.  Don Mattingly, through his first 6-7 full time seasons has very similar stats and he's also not in the HOF.  Gary Sheffield had 7 very good seasons from 99-2005 and played for 22 years with 2700 hits and 500 HRs and isn't the HOF.  Manny Ramirez had 14 seasons 95-08 with similar hitting results to Ohtani (with a much better BA as well) and he's not in.  

50/50 is an amazing accomplishment but if his career ended right now, Ohtani is NOT a HOFer.  Pull your heads out of your fanboi asses.

Ohtani is about to win a 3rd MVP, making your entire line of logic around Dale Murphy even more useless than it already was.

Edited by Pam Cummings
  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ztejas

ztejas 43411

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Marcus f'ing Semien finished third in the AL MVP balloting that year.

Holy shit he really did? Man - what a garbage year in the AL that must have been. Guess you can say the same about 2019 and 2023 when Semien also finished 3rd in MVP voting. 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Macanudo

Macanudo 12974

Posted
Posted

I am not arguing that he isn't a good player.  I'm arguing that he is not one of the 5 best players in baseball history.  Fastbreak made that claim.

In the modern era (the last 20-30 years), is Ohtani better than 

Albert Pujols

Ken Griffey, Jr.

Greg Maddux

Randy Johnson

Frank Thomas

Bryce Harper

Aaron Judge

And this leaves Bonds and McGwire off the list.

Go back 50-75 years and you can add

Willie Mays

Mickey Mantle

Ted Williams

Stan Musial

Bob Gibson

Sandy Koufax

Johnny Bench

Frank Robinson

Roberto Clemente

Again, Ohtani is very good.  He's not one of the top 5 players of all time.  Judge has flirted with the Triple Crown several times and plays decent defense.  This season, Ohtani's WAR as a hitter is 8.5 and his 162 game career average is 5.3. 

Aaron Judge is 10.6 this year and a career 8.5

Ted Williams 162 game career average is 8.6

Stan Musial - 

Roberto Clemente - 6.3

Joe DiMaggio - 7.4

Jackie Robinson - 7.3

Hank Greenberg  - 6.0

Wade Boggs - 6.1

Lou Gehrig - 8.5

Mike Trout  - 9.2

Mookie Betts - 8.2

Hank Aaron - 7.0

Willie Mays - 8.4

Mickey Mantle - 7.4

Frank Robinson - 6.2

Hell Mike Piazza and Bryce Harper are at 5.0, Paul Goldschmidt 5.3 and Rickey Henderson at 5.8.  

And pitching?  Ohtani has a career average WAR of 6.0 In 6 seasons

Clayton Kershaw - 6.0 in 17 years

Tom Seaver - 5.5 in 20 years

Roger Clemens - 6.7 in 24 years

Randy Johnson - 5.8 in 22 years

Bob Gibson - 5.5 in 17 years

Mike Mussina - 5.2 in 18 years

Roy Halladay - 5.5 in 16 years

Justin Verlander - 5.2 in 19 years

Chris Sale - 5.5 in 14 years

Jacob DeGrom - 6.6 in 11 years

All that to say, he's good.  He's not one of the 5 best players ever.  It's incredible to pitch and hit the way he does.  But tap the brakes on top 5 ever.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
closetohumping

closetohumping 17431

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, dcar00 said:

while looking up ohtani's WAR I saw this pic for single season WAR leaders on BB ref.

image.thumb.png.955af637a7a57320512e1f2eb35cb7b1.png

Looks like a civil war reenactment 

38 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Holy shit he really did? Man - what a garbage year in the AL that must have been. Guess you can say the same about 2019 and 2023 when Semien also finished 3rd in MVP voting. 

Sneaky ass Ohtani jumping in when the league sucks. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Macanudo

Macanudo 12974

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Holy shit he really did? Man - what a garbage year in the AL that must have been. Guess you can say the same about 2019 and 2023 when Semien also finished 3rd in MVP voting. 

Dude. 

Semien is a career .255 hitter.  His career comparables are Ian Kinsler, Dansby Swanson, Kyle Seager and Dale fucking Sveum.  

2019, 2021 and 2023 are by far Semien's best years.   Outside of those three seasons, he's only hit at or above is career average 2 times (.255 in 2018 and .257 in 2015.)  2023 was pretty much his best overall season (outside of BA and WAR, those were during 2019).  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Foosters

Foosters 17819

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

I am not arguing that he isn't a good player.  I'm arguing that he is not one of the 5 best players in baseball history.  Fastbreak made that claim.

In the modern era (the last 20-30 years), is Ohtani better than 

Albert Pujols

Ken Griffey, Jr.

Greg Maddux

Randy Johnson

Frank Thomas

Bryce Harper

Aaron Judge

And this leaves Bonds and McGwire off the list.

Go back 50-75 years and you can add

Willie Mays

Mickey Mantle

Ted Williams

Stan Musial

Bob Gibson

Sandy Koufax

Johnny Bench

Frank Robinson

Roberto Clemente

Again, Ohtani is very good.  He's not one of the top 5 players of all time.  Judge has flirted with the Triple Crown several times and plays decent defense.  This season, Ohtani's WAR as a hitter is 8.5 and his 162 game career average is 5.3. 

Aaron Judge is 10.6 this year and a career 8.5

Ted Williams 162 game career average is 8.6

Stan Musial - 

Roberto Clemente - 6.3

Joe DiMaggio - 7.4

Jackie Robinson - 7.3

Hank Greenberg  - 6.0

Wade Boggs - 6.1

Lou Gehrig - 8.5

Mike Trout  - 9.2

Mookie Betts - 8.2

Hank Aaron - 7.0

Willie Mays - 8.4

Mickey Mantle - 7.4

Frank Robinson - 6.2

Hell Mike Piazza and Bryce Harper are at 5.0, Paul Goldschmidt 5.3 and Rickey Henderson at 5.8.  

And pitching?  Ohtani has a career average WAR of 6.0 In 6 seasons

Clayton Kershaw - 6.0 in 17 years

Tom Seaver - 5.5 in 20 years

Roger Clemens - 6.7 in 24 years

Randy Johnson - 5.8 in 22 years

Bob Gibson - 5.5 in 17 years

Mike Mussina - 5.2 in 18 years

Roy Halladay - 5.5 in 16 years

Justin Verlander - 5.2 in 19 years

Chris Sale - 5.5 in 14 years

Jacob DeGrom - 6.6 in 11 years

All that to say, he's good.  He's not one of the 5 best players ever.  It's incredible to pitch and hit the way he does.  But tap the brakes on top 5 ever.

It seems there are different arguments here. One, does he have the requisite stats to make the hall of fame at this point? Given the Hall's preference for greatness over time, perhaps not.

That, however, has no bearing on whether he can be called the greatest baseball player of all time. If a 20 year old makes a debut, and hits 65 HRs / w 1.1+ OPS in each of his first 4 seasons, but then suffers a career ending injury, he probably wouldn't make the hall. Should you argue that Dale Murphy was a better baseball player? I guess you could. To use a similar example, is Emmitt Smith a better running back than Bo Jackson?

Of that list above, if you gave any MLB GM a hypothetical and said you get to pick one person at the beginning of their career to build a franchise around, I'm not sure most wouldn't pick Ohtani. Even over Pujols, Griffey, etc. 

 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
closetohumping

closetohumping 17431

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Foosters said:

It seems there are different arguments here. One, does he have the requisite stats to make the hall of fame at this point? Given the Hall's preference for greatness over time, perhaps not.

That, however, has no bearing on whether he can be called the greatest baseball player of all time. If a 20 year old makes a debut, and hits 65 HRs / w 1.1+ OPS in each of his first 4 seasons, but then suffers a career ending injury, he probably wouldn't make the hall. Should you argue that Dale Murphy was a better baseball player? I guess you could. To use a similar example, is Emmitt Smith a better running back than Bo Jackson?

Of that list above, if you gave any MLB GM a hypothetical and said you get to pick one person at the beginning of their career to build a franchise around, I'm not sure most wouldn't pick Ohtani. Even over Pujols, Griffey, etc. 

 

Is Jeff Malone better than Wemby

Link to comment
Share on other sites
hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13028

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

I am not arguing that he isn't a good player.  I'm arguing that he is not one of the 5 best players in baseball history.  Fastbreak made that claim.

In the modern era (the last 20-30 years), is Ohtani better than 

Albert Pujols

Ken Griffey, Jr.

Greg Maddux

Randy Johnson

Frank Thomas

Bryce Harper

Aaron Judge

And this leaves Bonds and McGwire off the list.

Go back 50-75 years and you can add

Willie Mays

Mickey Mantle

Ted Williams

Stan Musial

Bob Gibson

Sandy Koufax

Johnny Bench

Frank Robinson

Roberto Clemente

Again, Ohtani is very good.  He's not one of the top 5 players of all time.  Judge has flirted with the Triple Crown several times and plays decent defense.  This season, Ohtani's WAR as a hitter is 8.5 and his 162 game career average is 5.3. 

Aaron Judge is 10.6 this year and a career 8.5

Ted Williams 162 game career average is 8.6

Stan Musial - 

Roberto Clemente - 6.3

Joe DiMaggio - 7.4

Jackie Robinson - 7.3

Hank Greenberg  - 6.0

Wade Boggs - 6.1

Lou Gehrig - 8.5

Mike Trout  - 9.2

Mookie Betts - 8.2

Hank Aaron - 7.0

Willie Mays - 8.4

Mickey Mantle - 7.4

Frank Robinson - 6.2

Hell Mike Piazza and Bryce Harper are at 5.0, Paul Goldschmidt 5.3 and Rickey Henderson at 5.8.  

And pitching?  Ohtani has a career average WAR of 6.0 In 6 seasons

Clayton Kershaw - 6.0 in 17 years

Tom Seaver - 5.5 in 20 years

Roger Clemens - 6.7 in 24 years

Randy Johnson - 5.8 in 22 years

Bob Gibson - 5.5 in 17 years

Mike Mussina - 5.2 in 18 years

Roy Halladay - 5.5 in 16 years

Justin Verlander - 5.2 in 19 years

Chris Sale - 5.5 in 14 years

Jacob DeGrom - 6.6 in 11 years

All that to say, he's good.  He's not one of the 5 best players ever.  It's incredible to pitch and hit the way he does.  But tap the brakes on top 5 ever.

The whole pitching and hitting thing is the entire point. Name all the other players that are one of the 10 best pitchers and 10 best hitters at the same time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
 Share
Go to topic listing


Football ... Basketball ... Baseball ... Other Sports ... Futbol ... 🤫995🤫 ... Gambling ... Movies & TV ... Music ... Hobbies ... Lulz ... Food & Travel ... Daily Texan ... Business and Markets ... Cloak Room ... Help ... For Sale ... Board Discussion ... Subscribe!... Donate!... Advertise... COOKIE MONSTER!

×
×
  • Create New...