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Francisco 2.0

By Francisco 2.0
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Thatguy
Thatguy

Let me be candid and honest here my man. I cannot be sympathetic to your comments because this is how adult life has always been. From the moment I stepped out of my home and headed off to college I h

Francisco 2.0
Francisco 2.0
henrygandorf
henrygandorf

it won't matter if his taxes ever come out.  it won't matter if his taxes don't ever come out.  you wanna know why?  because we already know what's in them. since early 2017 when people starting

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45769

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1 hour ago, UncleSonny said:

 

Ho hum. Just the sitting president casually refusing to commit to a peaceful transition of power and insinuating that the only way he could lose is because of "the ballots". This country is such a shit show that the president threating a constitutional crisis is barely big enough news to make this thread at this point.

 

He's just joking guys!  Jeez, you can't take everything so seriously!

Fast forward to election night: Oh, well...the Libs cheated!!!11!!

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UncleSonny

UncleSonny 6632

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7 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

He's just joking guys!  Jeez, you can't take everything so seriously!

Fast forward to election night: Oh, well...the Libs cheated!!!11!!

Complete hypothetical for those who have a good sense of this kind of thing. What would happen if the Republican leadership had a crisis of conscious (I know, but stay with me) and decided to organize together and disavow Trump for the good of the country. They campaign hard for the nonMAGA/Q candidates in the general but the message is Trump is a danger to the future of the country and whether you vote Biden or write-in a candidate they can no longer support him. 

What percentage of the 87% of Rs that give Trump a positive approval rating are looking for permission to jump ship? Any chance Fox News takes immediately to this messaging and immediately swings the olds? Would the Republicans get swamped by an unprecedented blue wave in November or is it possible Republicans could get a bump by bringing back in some disillusioned conservatives blown away by a glimmer of integrity? Just how lost is the party to Trump, does the presidential race shake out exactly like it would anyway? 

I typed all this shit out and am realizing now its probably a complete waste of time to even think about. I may as well ask what you guys think would happen if Jesus came back and ran as a progressive Democrat against him, it's just as likely.

 

 

 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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1 minute ago, Dark Horse said:

How so? What are you expecting the media to do, other than report the news?

I mean, I’d hope they’d operate in some sort of survival mode seeing as how journalists will become the targets. Our media is part of democracy too. 

Like I could see Chuck Todd pontificating on the strategy of putting liberals in death camps.  “Republicans are advocating to round up the libs and put them in camps but are they overplaying their hand?  We will have Stephen Miller and Tom Cotton on MTP daily to discuss.” 

It’s the normalization of fascism that’s coming at us right now and our media doesn’t know how to deal with it except to do what they’ve always done. 

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pyrohornIII

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39 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

He's just joking guys!  Jeez, you can't take everything so seriously!

Fast forward to election night: Oh, well...the Libs cheated!!!11!!

You know, if he spent as much time running this country right as he does trying to set up a rigged election, he would win this election.  Thing is he only knows how to do the latter, not the former.

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Dark Horse

Dark Horse 2336

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17 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I mean, I’d hope they’d operate in some sort of survival mode seeing as how journalists will become the targets. Our media is part of democracy too. 

Like I could see Chuck Todd pontificating on the strategy of putting liberals in death camps.  “Republicans are advocating to round up the libs and put them in camps but are they overplaying their hand?  We will have Stephen Miller and Tom Cotton on MTP daily to discuss.” 

It’s the normalization of fascism that’s coming at us right now and our media doesn’t know how to deal with it except to do what they’ve always done. 

Americans are normalizing fascism, not the media. The media have been calling Trump a fascist for years now. 
 

The media has been reporting on kids in cages, his comments on the troops, his actions to undermine the election, etc. The media can’t force Americans to give a shit. 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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3 minutes ago, Dark Horse said:

Americans are normalizing fascism, not the media. The media have been calling Trump a fascist for years now. 

It’s a combination of both.  Fox News is non-stop fascist propaganda and I’ve only heard one anchor on MSNBC do a segment on contemporary American fascism as it relates to Trump.  We’re all complicit at the end of the day so yeah, this is a silly exercise of finger pointing.  

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29199

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1 hour ago, UncleSonny said:

 

Ho hum. Just the sitting president casually refusing to commit to a peaceful transition of power and insinuating that the only way he could lose is because of "the ballots". This country is such a shit show that the president threating a constitutional crisis is barely big enough news to make this thread at this point.

 

he's also letting everyone know that the supreme court will be involved, because that's how presidents act 45 days before an election.

we're redefining normal on a daily basis here and it fucking sucks.

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9959

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Posted (edited)

The Founders were all seeing people.   Because their first attempt at government failed after 8 years.  The second descended into civil war 80 years later, and the current version allows 40% of the population to rule 60%.  And that’s just if you’re white.

 

James Madison absolutely knew what he was doing.  

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TexArcher

TexArcher 38423

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32 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

The Founders were all seeing people.   Because their first attempt at government failed after 8 years.  The second descended into civil war 80 years later, and the current version allows 40% of the population to rule 60%.  And that’s just if you’re white.

 

James Madison absolutely knew what he was doing.  

But they only allowed one color of man to be property, because all men were created equal and stuff.

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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59 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

The Founders were all seeing people.   Because their first attempt at government failed after 8 years.  The second descended into civil war 80 years later, and the current version allows 40% of the population to rule 60%.  And that’s just if you’re white.

 

James Madison absolutely knew what he was doing.  

While I get what you are doing here I disagree with it.

The founders had a vision that was worthy. Flawed because it only included the white man of course, but was just a sign of the times. Its not like inviting the slaves to the constitutional convention was some sort of reality.

It was an ideal. And a worthy one. And in fact, no greater body of persons in America has strived to achieve that ideal than the formerly enslaved.

Just because man is flawed and the original constition is flawed doesn’t mean the ideal that inspired it is flawed. That’s the whole fucking point here. All men (and women) are equal under the law.

If everyone in America somehow woke up to what’s been done to them and what they are giving up by failing to realize that this would easily become the greatest country in history. It may already is but it’s incredibly flawed because of one simple reason. And we all realize it, whether we want to admit it or not. 

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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 77939

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If you take out the blue states I get to be President again.  It’s very simple really. 

 

he just needs to throw out Miami / Dade / Broward area votes, Milwaukee area votes and Philadelphia area votes 

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30091

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3 hours ago, Lurch said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Trained seals. The president who swore to uphold and protect the Constitution just announced that undermining it is an option.

Isn't our country the Constitution? Isn't this treason?

It's perfect that our distracted world produces a reporter who follows that with a celeb question. It's all the same. 

He should have to station troops around the White House to keep from being torn apart by an angry, righteously so, tsunami of outraged Americans.

What tiny percentage of Americans will even bother to know? How small a percentage of that percentage will give more than a moment's thought?

Will we just roll over?

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Nivek

Nivek 17045

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But they only allowed one color of man to be property, because all men were created equal and stuff.

It limited the right to vote to about 5% of the population. As ai understand it, they were afraid that dumbasses like those depicted in BamaChic’s post above would choose poorly.
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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28838

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Caught a little bit of Morning Joe today. Willie Geist doesn't get it. Referring to Trump's comments about getting rid of the ballots, he asserted that Trump was talking about mail-in ballots. No, dumbass, he's talking about ALL BALLOTS. He's a wannabe dictator and if he could ban elections and stay in power for life, he would. Wake up. 

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Bateshorn

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

While I get what you are doing here I disagree with it.

The founders had a vision that was worthy. Flawed because it only included the white man of course, but was just a sign of the times. Its not like inviting the slaves to the constitutional convention was some sort of reality.

It was an ideal. And a worthy one. And in fact, no greater body of persons in America has strived to achieve that ideal than the formerly enslaved.

Just because man is flawed and the original constition is flawed doesn’t mean the ideal that inspired it is flawed. That’s the whole fucking point here. All men (and women) are equal under the law.

If everyone in America somehow woke up to what’s been done to them and what they are giving up by failing to realize that this would easily become the greatest country in history. It may already is but it’s incredibly flawed because of one simple reason. And we all realize it, whether we want to admit it or not. 

The problem with this approach is it continues to deify the innovative but flawed original construct and accord undue deference to its authors.  You have to state at the outset: the founders, especially the Virginians, we’re attempting a new form of government while trying to ensconce existing capita structures.  
 

2+ centuries later we need to state the obvious:  hey, there’s some cool stuff in there, but it’s time to interpret  the constitution and govern in modern time. The document is not designed for a world were the proletariat has full suffrage and half the population is immigrant/POC.  Whatever Madison and Hamilton thought in 1789 is fucking irrelevant. 
 

The next time somebody says “But the Founders vision...” ima say “Fuck the founders, they aren’t here” 

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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 77939

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So Bannon is telling R activist to go signup to volunteer to be Election Day volunteers. Then proceed to challenge as many votes as possible, plug up the system. 
 

makes sense in R controlled swing states. Bring the system to a halt. Desantis is ready to taken the situation over. Supreme Court will be ready to back him 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23514

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IMO, the problem is not that the Constitution is an anachronistic relic in the modern day, it is that we have fundamentally undermined the basic functions and constraints that the document set out for our government.

I have long been open to scrapping the thing and starting from scratch.  At least that gives us to opportunity to create a document that is actually an honest representation of our political values.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26684

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30 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

IMO, the problem is not that the Constitution is an anachronistic relic in the modern day, it is that we have fundamentally undermined the basic functions and constraints that the document set out for our government.

I have long been open to scrapping the thing and starting from scratch.  At least that gives us to opportunity to create a document that is actually an honest representation of our political values.

It's like there's an arson gang that goes around lighting houses on fire to demonstrate that emergency response times are poor. As they burn to the ground, they point out that they are open to building a brand new house, without smoke detectors. 

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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56 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

 

The next time somebody says “But the Founders vision...” ima say “Fuck the founders, they aren’t here” 

Uh, yeah man...like Hamilton's not here right now man.  

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23514

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15 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

It's like there's an arson gang that goes around lighting houses on fire to demonstrate that emergency response times are poor. As they burn to the ground, they point out that they are open to building a brand new house, without smoke detectors. 

We have continually undermined the Constitutional constraints and structure of our government while paying lip service to it's values, which when coupled with the toxicity and dysfunction of the modern two party political system, results in the dumpster fire that many of us have been alerting to continually as extreme executive power was consolidated, congress abdicated their constitutional responsibilities, and the death spiral of the two party system played out.  The status quo bozos have been quite ok with the system as this all played out over the last 40 years, even though they knew where the road ultimately terminated. 

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30091

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21 hours ago, Continental Op said:

Yeah white men.  Let's step aside and put North Dallas Salon Lady in charge.  That will solve everything.   The performative self-flagellation from you and brisket is beyond tired.  

I wasn't moved to respond to this at first. I made my point, you made yours; nothing wrong there. You're tired of my POV but you don't name call. Fair enough. I don't think Brisket is as self-scourging as you think I am, but that's just a quibble.

But your response is kind of tired as well. Point to the worst example of a group of non-white men, and that's enough to dismiss my entire premise. You can go about your day without applying the lash to yourself. The status quo is just fine and wouldn't change if Roma got his hopeless wish that white men such as himself were to be disqualified from leadership.

I think your post may reveal the same surprising element of prejudice that I identify in myself. I consider myself enlightened, but I learn that I'm actually too self-satisfied. I've got blind spots. I'm not a bad person nor do I suspect are you, but we just don't see the ingrained dispositions that lead us to act or tolerate acts that are hard on other groups.

We just don't see it. Further, I'll go again to Henry Rollins: this man's world is a poorly run carnage fest. Maybe we should give someone else a turn who doesn't have the blind spot.

I'm not self-flagellating so much as trying to be self-examining. I don't hate what I see, but there is some work to do. I don't think that makes me uncommon. 

Probably not much I can do about being tiresome. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105586

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58 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

IMO, the problem is not that the Constitution is an anachronistic relic in the modern day, it is that we have fundamentally undermined the basic functions and constraints that the document set out for our government.

I have long been open to scrapping the thing and starting from scratch.  At least that gives us to opportunity to create a document that is actually an honest representation of our political values.

Right now, an anachronistic and broken Constitution and the institutions created pursuant to it are the only thing keeping us from the absolute horror movie that would ensue under an "honest representation of our political values."

You might as well write "it's important that we get what we deserve."  Fuck no, I don't want what we deserve.  Because what we deserve is a fascist dictatorship, total economic collapse, and a century of suffering.  I'd like something better than that, thank you.   I want grace, not what we deserve.

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 30091

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1 hour ago, ChiTownDoc said:

‘Yeah but the democrats would do the same thing.’

- real response I got.  I asked that nurse for some halls after I was done laughing. 

The Dem's best shot was after Nixon. People thought the GOP might disintegrate back then. What did they do? They nominated the great villain Jimmy Carter, Donald Trump's virtual twin, of course.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDDedLM4NVlxPMEj4DUo6

 

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

The problem with this approach is it continues to deify the innovative but flawed original construct and accord undue deference to its authors.  You have to state at the outset: the founders, especially the Virginians, we’re attempting a new form of government while trying to ensconce existing capita structures.  
 

2+ centuries later we need to state the obvious:  hey, there’s some cool stuff in there, but it’s time to interpret  the constitution and govern in modern time. The document is not designed for a world were the proletariat has full suffrage and half the population is immigrant/POC.  Whatever Madison and Hamilton thought in 1789 is fucking irrelevant. 
 

The next time somebody says “But the Founders vision...” ima say “Fuck the founders, they aren’t here” 

To be fair, the founders also understood that circumstances change. Thats why they provided a detailed amendment process. They never intended for the original constitution to be permanent or to be considered flawless.  It was designed to be modified. 

Of course, conservatives are always hypocrites. If they had the votes, they'd amend the consitution right now to allow for a supreme executive who has the ability to suspend elections. Just like the founders wanted. 

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Right now, an anachronistic and broken Constitution and the institutions created pursuant to it are the only thing keeping us from the absolute horror movie that would ensue under an "honest representation of our political values."

You might as well write "it's important that we get what we deserve."  Fuck no, I don't want what we deserve.  Because what we deserve is a fascist dictatorship, total economic collapse, and a century of suffering.  I'd like something better than that, thank you.   I want grace, not what we deserve.

The reality is that we were always this divided.  We were held together by the Cold War where we faced an external threat. And while some have tried to turn China, Islamic fundamentalism, and Putin's Russia into a unifying external enemy, they don't really present the same threat that the USSR did. They don't want to convert us to another ideology.  And that was always the threat that the USSR really posed. We were never going to have nuclear war or direct conventional war with them. 

But China, New Russia, and Islamic fundamentalists?  They aren't really existential threats. We are our own existential threat. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31686

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3 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

To be fair, the founders also understood that circumstances change. Thats why they provided a detailed amendment process. They never intended for the original constitution to be permanent or to be considered flawless.  It was designed to be modified. 

Of course, conservatives are always hypocrites. If they had the votes, they'd amend the consitution right now to allow for a supreme executive who has the ability to suspend elections. Just like the founders wanted. 

It's somewhat amazing, in the current time, that the Constitution has been amended 17 times in the last 230 years.

For those who think the Constitution should be trashed, I wonder at what point they suggest we could have done so?

I don't think it really started to become "outmoded" until the 20th Century, probably right around the Depression and rapidly progressing since, along with political polarization.  The point being, a constitutional redraft prior to the latter half of the 20th Century probably would not have solved any of its present shortcomings.  The shift from an agrarian to an industrial and then to a service economy and the resultant divides between rural and urban areas and states seem to be the problem.

The nation has largely lost sight of the states as anything but convenient administrative units, and, right or wrong, that is highly inconsistent with the structure envisioned by the Constitution.

I think any attempt to hold a constitutional convention at this point would result in the dissolution of the republic.

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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8760

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

The reality is that we were always this divided. 

This is incorrect. Post 2000 gerrymandering fundamentally changed the tenor of politicians, because they mostly cane from safe districts with vulnerability only in primaries. Congressional approval as a whole polls in the 20s-30s, but people *love* their own reps. There’s no incentive to compromise, and in fact, it gets punished. The electorate was different over the decades, and the politicians who represent us were also different. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31686

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Posted
5 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

The reality is that we were always this divided.  We were held together by the Cold War where we faced an external threat. And while some have tried to turn China, Islamic fundamentalism, and Putin's Russia into a unifying external enemy, they don't really present the same threat that the USSR did. They don't want to convert us to another ideology.  And that was always the threat that the USSR really posed. We were never going to have nuclear war or direct conventional war with them. 

But China, New Russia, and Islamic fundamentalists?  They aren't really existential threats. We are our own existential threat. 

I read something somewhere about the GOP really losing its way after the Soviet Union fell.  Seemed very accurate.  

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