James Riddle Hoffa

[Baboontyme 2845]

The Irishman has piqued interest in this subject again, and rather than pollute the thread about the movie, I thought I might start a thread about the actual case. 

I was born 2 years after Hoffa disappeared, but it was always a subject of interest being local, and my upbringing involved some influence from labor unions. Different trade, but Old Man Baboon even ran his own local, had a position on the International, and not only did I "intern" during High School in the office taking phone calls and doing errands for pops and his various ultra shady Business Agents but later during college breaks I actually worked the trades on permits and got to see what my life would be like if I dropped out of college. Rouge Steel ain't no disco. Did not want. 

At any rate, years ago my dad told me about Charles Brandt's book, I Heard You Paint Houses and told me that he believed this account. I read the book in my late 20s and became intrigued with the subject. I've since read the book 3 or 4 more times, and just finished reading it again on the heels of watching the movie because I wanted to refresh myself on what was true to the book and what wasn't. 

I also have read numerous articles debunking "The Irishman"s claims, including some by very prominent sources, including Dan Moldea, who may be the foremost expert on the subject. 

I am interested in reading more books on the subject, and mafioso in general around that period, should anyone have any recommendations. 

As to where I land on Sheeran, and the Hoffa case in particular, if you ask me, though I can somewhat sympathize with Frank's state of mind during the period of interviews with Brandt, I could easily see him being an exaggerator and/or bullshitter. Yet what I find particularly compelling are some of the details he provides. That coupled with Frank being one of the 9 (or 12) suspects being named in the Hoffex memo and some comments from Hoffa Jr, Moldea and others, as well as retracing the route, and I am 95% convinced that the story he laid out is mostly true. Whether he pulled the trigger or not, I'm not sure. Could be one of those details he chose to fudge. Moldea thinks it was Sally Bugs. But that doesn't change the back story or the setup, only the trigger man. 

In regards to the Joey Gallo hit, despite conventional knowledge, I come away from this book being 99% convinced that this was indeed a Sheeran hit. Again...details. I have no idea how this old man could have supplied them the way that he did if they were not true. In addition his account was (according to Brandt) corroborated by now deceased homicide detective assigned to the case Joe Coffey, and an eye witness. Coffey apparently told Brandt that they put out a story of 3 gunmen just to weed out fake tips. Couple that with the Gallo bodyguard account of having an encounter with Buffalino and Frank earlier at a nightclub...it seems more than plausible. 

I believe that Chuckie O'Brien (unwittingly) and Frank Sheeran (wittingly) were involved in picking up Hoffa at the Machus Red Fox. He would not have gotten into a car at that point in time given the political climate if those two were not present. This was a public place, even being a parking lot. I believe that they were driven to a house in Detroit off of 7 Mile, on Beaverland. I believe that Hoffa was killed in that house. And I believe that his body was incinerated either at the Grand Lawn Cemetery or at the Bagnasco Cemetery in St. Clair Shores. 

Interested in other perspectives, if there are any here.  

[closetojumping 63672]

I read the book and then watched the movie. The book was great. The movie was good but overrated. 

I don’t know much about the Hoffa case or the rebuttals to Brandt’s story, but what I read seemed plausible. I’m interested to see where the thread goes. I was born after Hoffa disappeared, but the story has never truly left the mainstream and it’s always intrigued me in terms of whether or not they’d find his remains or solve the case. 

[Baboontyme 2845]

20 minutes ago, closetojumping said:

I read the book and then watched the movie. The book was great. The movie was good but overrated. 

I don’t know much about the Hoffa case or the rebuttals to Brandt’s story, but what I read seemed plausible. I’m interested to see where the thread goes. I was born after Hoffa disappeared, but the story has never truly left the mainstream and it’s always intrigued me in terms of whether or not they’d find his remains or solve the case. 

I think I said this in the thread about the movie. I can easily see Frank being somewhat of a bullshitter - or more accurately an exaggerator. You listen to his stories, retold by Brandt, and the way he liked to talk on the phone, etc, and you form a picture. But you also have to take into account the amount of respect he was shown, in his Union appreciation banquet, and some of the things that Brandt witnessed, in addition to, hell, the fact that he was allowed to live out his life. Some of the accounts I've read about him being a bullshitter only ring half true. He may have been one, but this guy was no minor pawn in the game. He had a role, clearly. And the details...that is what truly gets me. He may have worked in Detroit and been somewhat familiar with Detroit and the layout. But a Philly guy, recounting his steps from the Pontiac (Oakland County) Airport, past the Red Fox, to 7 Mile, over the bridge, past the footbridge, right onto Beaverland, to the house with brown shingles, recounting the original layout...it's uncanny. Whether he pulled the trigger or not is pretty pedestrian to me. This is what happened. 

[Blotto 23755]

43 minutes ago, Baboontyme said:

I am interested in reading more books on the subject, and mafioso in general around that period, should anyone have any recommendations. 

Give American Tabloid by James Ellroy a shot if you haven't already. Its historical fiction, but a good read. 

[billfromlaketravis 11641]

7 hours ago, Baboontyme said:

The Irishman has piqued interest in this subject again, and rather than pollute the thread about the movie, I thought I might start a thread about the actual case. 

I was born 2 years after Hoffa disappeared, but it was always a subject of interest being local, and my upbringing involved some influence from labor unions. Different trade, but Old Man Baboon even ran his own local, had a position on the International, and not only did I "intern" during High School in the office taking phone calls and doing errands for pops and his various ultra shady Business Agents but later during college breaks I actually worked the trades on permits and got to see what my life would be like if I dropped out of college. Rouge Steel ain't no disco. Did not want. 

At any rate, years ago my dad told me about Charles Brandt's book, I Heard You Paint Houses and told me that he believed this account. I read the book in my late 20s and became intrigued with the subject. I've since read the book 3 or 4 more times, and just finished reading it again on the heels of watching the movie because I wanted to refresh myself on what was true to the book and what wasn't. 

I also have read numerous articles debunking "The Irishman"s claims, including some by very prominent sources, including Dan Moldea, who may be the foremost expert on the subject. 

I am interested in reading more books on the subject, and mafioso in general around that period, should anyone have any recommendations. 

As to where I land on Sheeran, and the Hoffa case in particular, if you ask me, though I can somewhat sympathize with Frank's state of mind during the period of interviews with Brandt, I could easily see him being an exaggerator and/or bullshitter. Yet what I find particularly compelling are some of the details he provides. That coupled with Frank being one of the 9 (or 12) suspects being named in the Hoffex memo and some comments from Hoffa Jr, Moldea and others, as well as retracing the route, and I am 95% convinced that the story he laid out is mostly true. Whether he pulled the trigger or not, I'm not sure. Could be one of those details he chose to fudge. Moldea thinks it was Sally Bugs. But that doesn't change the back story or the setup, only the trigger man. 

In regards to the Joey Gallo hit, despite conventional knowledge, I come away from this book being 99% convinced that this was indeed a Sheeran hit. Again...details. I have no idea how this old man could have supplied them the way that he did if they were not true. In addition his account was (according to Brandt) corroborated by now deceased homicide detective assigned to the case Joe Coffey, and an eye witness. Coffey apparently told Brandt that they put out a story of 3 gunmen just to weed out fake tips. Couple that with the Gallo bodyguard account of having an encounter with Buffalino and Frank earlier at a nightclub...it seems more than plausible. 

I believe that Chuckie O'Brien (unwittingly) and Frank Sheeran (wittingly) were involved in picking up Hoffa at the Machus Red Fox. He would not have gotten into a car at that point in time given the political climate if those two were not present. This was a public place, even being a parking lot. I believe that they were driven to a house in Detroit off of 7 Mile, on Beaverland. I believe that Hoffa was killed in that house. And I believe that his body was incinerated either at the Grand Lawn Cemetery or at the Bagnasco Cemetery in St. Clair Shores. 

Interested in other perspectives, if there are any here.  

I’ll buy Frank was present at Hoffa’s execution. Who shot Hoffa really doesn’t matter in my opinion. 

I believe the Gallo hit was debunked by the NYPD. There’s a named suspect out there, and it’s not Frank. I don’t think he was involved in this one. 

The Tony Salerno angle is interesting to me, because Salerno wasn’t the boss of the Genovese Family. He was the front boss, while Vincent Gigante was the real boss behind the scenes. Similar to Junior being the front man while Tony ran the family on the Sopranos. What did Gigante think of Hoffa and Tony Pro? I guess we’ll never know. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by billfromlaketravis

[tx 3 putt 78010]

I read this as baboon’s dad murdered Hoffa 

I love the Jack Nicholson ‘Hoffa’ movie 

[TwiceHorn 31705]

25 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

I read this as baboon’s dad murdered Hoffa 

I love the Jack Nicholson ‘Hoffa’ movie 

Gagreed.  Gets better with repeated viewings.  

[tx 3 putt 78010]

#humblebrag

[RDCanecutter 26570]

2 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

I read this as baboon’s dad murdered Hoffa

My first thought too.

[Baboontyme 2845]

15 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

I’ll buy Frank was present at Hoffa’s execution. Who shot Hoffa really doesn’t matter in my opinion. 

I believe the Gallo hit was debunked by the NYPD. There’s a named suspect out there, and it’s not Frank. I don’t think he was involved in this one. 

The Tony Salerno angle is interesting to me, because Salerno wasn’t the boss of the Genovese Family. He was the front boss, while Vincent Gigante was the real boss behind the scenes. Similar to Junior being the front man while Tony ran the family on the Sopranos. What did Gigante think of Hoffa and Tony Pro? I guess we’ll never know. 

That's interesting. Not touched on by Brandt or Frank and I had not heard that. It's why I want to read more.

Also thought your point about Pro in the other thread was interesting. From what I read in the book, I actually thought he was portrayed fairly accurately.

I also agree that who actually pulled the trigger doesn't matter.

I really want Andretta or Chuckie to come clean before they go. 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Baboontyme

[billfromlaketravis 11641]

7 minutes ago, Baboontyme said:

That's interesting. Not touched on by Brandt or Frank and I had not heard that. It's why I want to read more.

Also thought your point about Pro in the other thread was interesting. From what I read in the book, I actually thought he was portrayed fairly accurately.

I also agree that who actually pulled the trigger doesn't matter.

I really want Andretta or Chuckie to come clean before they go. 

Andretta died last year. Chuckie is 85, but I doubt he talks. The long piece in The Alantic is pretty damning if true. The guy is a piece of shit. The mob killed Hoffa and destroyed his body. I guess what interests people is how it happened and who exactly was involved. 

Salerno was certainly a powerful figure in the mob. He was probably a capo in 1975. It’s unclear how he would have been Pro’s superior. Pro’s Jersey Crew was one of the most powerful in the Genovese Family. 

Concealing the real boss is a favorite trick of the Genovese. They’ve been doing it since the 1960’s. They use the street/front boss as a lightning rod to take the hits from law enforcement. It doesn’t really matter who the boss was in 1975. Pro didn’t kill Hoffa without the OK from higher ups. 

It’s dated, but Five Families by Selwyn Raab is an excellent read. It provides detailed histories of each of the families and their leadership up to 2000.

[Armybrat 41043]

I have the strange urge to start cooking up a huge batch of spaghetti sauce. 

[billfromlaketravis 11641]

Slate posted a long piece in August that blows holes in Sheeran's/Brandt's book. It reads a lot like a hit piece for clicks, but it does raise some valid concerns. https://slate.com/culture/2019/08/the-irishman-scorsese-netflix-movie-true-story-lies.html

It describes Sheeran as a hanger on in Philly and complete unknown in Detroit. So Frank either worked exclusively and quietly for Buffalino, or he's bullshitting. 

My conclusions : 

- No, hell no Sheeran killed Gallo. I question if he was even in New York City at the time. 

- Again, I think Sheeran was there or nearby when Hoffa was killed. 

 

Chuckie predictably hates the movie. https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a30397080/irishman-chuckie-obrien-true-story/

 

 

[Baboontyme 2845]

Chuckie O'Brien died.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/obituaries/2020/02/14/charles-chuckie-obrien-hoffa-confidant-and-suspect-his-disappearance-dies-86/4758950002/

[Parliament 14413]

Who whacked him?  The FBI?

[MAROON 445]

On 1/2/2020 at 12:06 AM, Blotto said:

Give American Tabloid by James Ellroy a shot if you haven't already. Its historical fiction, but a good read. 

honestly one of the best books I've ever read.

[EMAWesome 101]

Michael Franzese has a bunch of YouTube interviews where he claims he knows exactly who shot Hoffa but he ain't telling.  He does say that Shearan is full of shit about it though.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

On 2/14/2020 at 11:31 AM, Parliament said:

Who whacked him?  The FBI?

I always thought the union or the mafia.  Not sure what reason the FBI would have to kill him (not that they probably need a reason).  I thought it was one of Nicholsons best roles.

[billfromlaketravis 11641]

Fox News Riddle : The Podcast is pretty good. 
 

The hosts interviews all of the Hoffa “experts” including Goldsmith and Moldea. Basically the only consensus they’ve reached is that Sheeran is full of shit. 

[Carl Spackler 3561]

I recently read In Hoffa's Shadow by Jack Goldsmith, who was a former Assistant AG in the Bush (W.) administration and is now a Harvard Law prof.  Goldsmith was also Chuckie's stepson.  As a kid, he idolized Chuckie, but as he grew older and got into law and law enforcement, he distanced himself from Chuckie and began to openly reject Chuckie and his teamster background.  But, according to Goldsmith, once he started looking into the rumors of Chuckie's involvement in Hoffa's disappearance, he began to see gaps in the story.  After mending fences with Chuckie in the years before Chuckie's death, Goldsmith started to help Chuckie try to clear his name, and the book was sparked by those efforts.

It's a pretty good read.  His main premise is that Chuckie had nothing to do with Hoffa's disappearance -- at least nothing wittingly.  Goldsmith acknowledges his bias in being Chuckie's stepson, but I thought he did a good job of being balanced and playing devil's advocate when needed.  And because he was Chuckie's stepson, he had an angle and access that no other writer did.  His writing style is what you might expect from a law professor -- focused on facts, not too flowery, and logical.    

I won't spoil Goldsmith's conclusions re: the Hoffa disappearance or who he thinks was responsible, but suffice to say that he gives no credence whatsoever to Frank Sheeran's story that Chuckie picked up Hoffa and that Chuckie's presence was crucial in convincing Hoffa that it was safe to get in the car.  Goldsmith also wrote some articles debunking Sheeran's claims after The Irishman was released.    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/03/opinion/the-irishman-movie-chuckie-obrien.html

   

[billfromlaketravis 11641]

1 hour ago, Carl Spackler said:

I recently read In Hoffa's Shadow by Jack Goldsmith, who was a former Assistant AG in the Bush (W.) administration and is now a Harvard Law prof.  Goldsmith was also Chuckie's stepson.  As a kid, he idolized Chuckie, but as he grew older and got into law and law enforcement, he distanced himself from Chuckie and began to openly reject Chuckie and his teamster background.  But, according to Goldsmith, once he started looking into the rumors of Chuckie's involvement in Hoffa's disappearance, he began to see gaps in the story.  After mending fences with Chuckie in the years before Chuckie's death, Goldsmith started to help Chuckie try to clear his name, and the book was sparked by those efforts.

It's a pretty good read.  His main premise is that Chuckie had nothing to do with Hoffa's disappearance -- at least nothing wittingly.  Goldsmith acknowledges his bias in being Chuckie's stepson, but I thought he did a good job of being balanced and playing devil's advocate when needed.  And because he was Chuckie's stepson, he had an angle and access that no other writer did.  His writing style is what you might expect from a law professor -- focused on facts, not too flowery, and logical.    

I won't spoil Goldsmith's conclusions re: the Hoffa disappearance or who he thinks was responsible, but suffice to say that he gives no credence whatsoever to Frank Sheeran's story that Chuckie picked up Hoffa and that Chuckie's presence was crucial in convincing Hoffa that it was safe to get in the car.  Goldsmith also wrote some articles debunking Sheeran's claims after The Irishman was released.    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/03/opinion/the-irishman-movie-chuckie-obrien.html

   

Goldsmith seems like a stand up guy. He really has no reason to embellish or alter anything.

With deaths of Chuckie O'Brien in February 2020 and Thomas Andretta in January 2019, there are no living Hoffa suspects. 

The general consensus from the all the experts in the Riddle podcast was that Chuckie and Hoffa were not on speaking terms for 6 months before the Hoffa disappearance. Hoffa had plenty of falling outs with close friends, so this wouldn't have been unusual. So why would Hoffa get in the car with someone he was estranged with? 

Some other assumptions/conclusions from the podcast : 

- Sheeran was probably present, but Sally Bugs was the shooter. One of the Andretta brothers, and Tony Jack Giaclone were probably in the car. 

- The Detroit "experts" base a lot of their conclusions on guesses. "If Hoffa's murder occurred in Detroit, only a made guy from Detroit could have pulled the trigger". "The body was definitely disposed of a Detroit crematorium because they wouldn't travel with the body." "Detroit didn't have to ask for Commission approval to ask for Hoffa, when they met with Genovese officials in New Jersey/New York they were just filling them in on what happened". 

- I think Dan Moldea was the best grasp on it. He was a graduate student at Kent State investigating the Teamsters well before the Hoffa disappearance. He was on the scene at the Red Fox as soon as news of Hoffa's disappearance hit the wires. He claimed to have a relationship with Sally Bugs, Genovese and Detroit mobsters, and the FBI agents investigating the Hoffa case. He published his book, The Hoffa Wars in 1978. A full 26 years before I Heard You Paint Houses was published in 2004. 

- Sheeran.  He was a Teamster official , he did long stretches of time for labor racketeering, and he drove for Russel Bufalino. The Philly mob guys don't think much of him. Basically a drunk, and a thug that beat people up for the Teamsters. Not a master hitman. 

- The Chicago Outfit is almost completely absent from the Riddle podcast. I found this interesting because they probably had the most to lose if Hoffa was re-elected Teamsters President. The Central States Pension Fund was their bank. 

My assumptions: 

- First of all, Hoffa's murder was a remarkably bold action carried out by very unremarkable people. 

- Tony Pro wasn't present. That said, a theory was presented that the Hoffa - Tony Pro beef started with a Las Vegas real estate deal that fell apart. If Bugs was the shooter, if one or both of the Andretta brothers were present, and Hoffa's body was dumped in New Jersey, all signs would point to Pro. 

- I struggle with moving the body out of Detroit. It doesn't make a lick of sense logically, but Moldea is convinced Hoffa's body was moved to New Jersey. This seems to be the position of the FBI as well. 

- I think Detroit's involvement was Tony Jack being in the car and providing the house. 

- Frank Fitzsimmons had nothing to do it with it. There's a theory that the bombing of Baby Fitz's car was a set up to frame Hoffa. I could see it. 

- Sheeran was there, but what did he know. I'm not sure he was in on the plan. 

- Without a living suspect, I don't think the FBI is very motivated to solve the crime. 

- A lot of bar room talk has completely clouded the crime, probably permanently. 

 

[Carl Spackler 3561]

It's apparent from his book that Goldsmith respects Moldea as someone who, other than law enforcement personnel, knows as much or more about the Hoffa disappearance than anyone else.  He also appreciates that Moldea has changed his opinion (as voiced in The Hoffa Wars when it was first published) that Chuckie was present in the car when Hoffa was picked up.

According to Goldsmith's book . . . Provenzano made it happen but not before obtaining approval from persons "in New York," i.e., persons even higher than himself within the Genovese family or possibly even the Commission itself.  I don't think any of the experts knows for sure who the actually triggerman or men were, but Sally Bugs and Thomas Andretta are the two most likely candidates. 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Carl Spackler

[JohnnyRage 1617]

On 2/27/2020 at 6:45 PM, EMAWesome said:

Michael Franzese has a bunch of YouTube interviews where he claims he knows exactly who shot Hoffa but he ain't telling.  He does say that Shearan is full of shit about it though.

 

Can start at 6:20 or 7:55

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by JohnnyRage

[billfromlaketravis 11641]

10 hours ago, JohnnyRage said:

 

Can start at 6:20 or 7:55

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like Franzese, but how the hell would he know for certain? He wasn't ever named in the Hoffex Memo, so he wasn't directly involved. He likely heard it second hand, and that isn't a dependable source. 

I think the mob unwittingly covered their own tracks via bar room talk and gossip. Every connected guy from Detroit to New York tried to take credit. That's a tough row to hoe for the FBI. 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

1 hour ago, billfromlaketravis said:

I like Franzese, but how the hell would he know for certain? He wasn't ever named in the Hoffex Memo, so he wasn't directly involved. He likely heard it second hand, and that isn't a dependable source. 

I think the mob unwittingly covered their own tracks via bar room talk and gossip. Every connected guy from Detroit to New York tried to take credit. That's a tough row to hoe for the FBI. 

I think all 4 guys said different places for the body.

[billfromlaketravis 11641]

5 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

I think all 4 guys said different places for the body.

Yep, it's all second hand information. The people that know for sure are dead.

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

23 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

I think all 4 guys said different places for the body.

1. I don't believe Sheeran killed Hoffa or Gallo or pretty much anybody, and I'd love to see his service record from WW2. I am betting he embellished the fuck out of that too.

2. All these dudes are sociopaths and liars. That Russo dude spins a tale about how he lost his virginity to Marilyn Monroe when he was 16. I think that's about as likely as Sheeran personally shooting Hoffa. But everybody who could shoot that story down is probably dead, so hey, why not go around telling people that? He reminds me of this character in Nashville who claimed to be a bastard Elvis fathered when Elvis was 12 and went around town daily in rhinestone jumpsuits . I mean, he was Elvis, and this was Mississippi, so it was possible, lol...

3. All these dudes seem to deeply believe what they are saying. So while they are sociopathic liars, I think they do believe all these different versions they've heard over the years, from other sociopaths and liars, who heard them from still other sociopaths and liars. Mix in booze, and man, what a house of mirrors it all is. 

 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

Yeah Gianni is an exaggerator and a liar, but even if half the shit he says is somewhat true...Pretty crazy life.
 

I mean the killing a guy in his Las Vegas after hours place is in the public record. I’m on the fence if he was deflowered by a woman that only knew how to communicate with her cock holster.

[Baboontyme 2845]

They are looking for Jimmy underneath a highway overpass in Jersey where a landfill used to be located. 

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2021/11/19/jimmy-hoffa-search-new-jersey-landfill-fbi/8684524002/

[Parliament 14413]

Isn't pretty much ALL of New Jersey a place "where a landfill used to be located?"

[Pato del Muerto 52977]

Riddle in the middle but he’s got much back?

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

This does kind of look like where I always imagined they planted ol' Jimmy:

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

37 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

This does kind of look like where I always imagined they planted ol' Jimmy:

Not a cannoli in sight.

[Murfdogg21 4492]

Never understood why they would whack him in Detroit and bury him in New Jersey. 

[billfromlaketravis 11641]

12 hours ago, Murfdogg21 said:

Never understood why they would whack him in Detroit and bury him in New Jersey. 

Because they probably didn't. That said Dan Moldea is convinced it went down this way and he's been on the Hoffa case since before his disappearance. 46 years. 

That is a lot of years to spend on just one thing.