For History Buffs

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

Tanks are fricking cool.  My best friend was an Abrams driver.  Said those things were flipping amazing.  If you can see it, you call kill it.  That's basically how bad ass that 120mm main gun is.  He used to talk about all the stories stationed in KY and at Hood of the dumb shit the tankers would do.  But when it was cold, the infantry loved them.  That giant turbine engine was like a massive space heater for guys to huddle behind when it was cold.

Group buy for an weekend at the Ox ranch?

Yep, have a close family friend who was as tank driver. He was stationed  in S. Korea, and talked about strapping his mountain bike on the back and driving up close to the DMZ, and then biking along the ridges, and trails doing reconoitering duties.

[Armybrat 41422]

Tanks you say?

Tanks were my Dad’s business as a battalion commander 1947-49 when we were stationed at Camp Hood . Fun times, getting to ride in one of those steel contraptions just because he was the CO.

The “yearbook” from that time:

Edited January 1, 2022 by Armybrat

[Armybrat 41422]

[Armybrat 41422]

Dad.. Lt.Col. USA (Ret) 1911-2002. RIP

 

[BabaYaga 15629]

Looks like a Pershing on the cover.  Would have loved to see those in front-line use earlier in the war with that big 90mm main gun

[Armybrat 41422]

Yeah, Pershings IIRC.

[atomheartbevo 90663]

On 12/31/2021 at 11:56 AM, Onboard 2.0 said:

The Patton call to continue east has always been a fascinating what if scenario. The Russians had massive amounts of troops, and material poised on the German border by '45 I believe.  What would the outcome be of a true east vs. west war ?  Do we give them a knock out punch with allied combined, conventional arms or does another nuke or the threat of a nuke drop occur ?

I don't see how we do it without nukes.  Too much territory to cover, and the Soviets would be at near-full strength, while we would still be divided with the Pacific theater, and if we were to do the Soviets, no way we ignore China.

I also don't know how you sell it to the public - nuking somebody who was an ally against the Nazis, at a time the American public wanted things to wind down (and Truman was more than happy to oblige them).  It took quite some time for the Red Scare to really kick in, and the Soviets had nukes in '49 (which ironically is what really kicked the Red Scare into gear). Truman leaned heavily on George Marshall, who was against US intervention in China, so he'd have to have somebody else that he leaned on, that could have sold him on that, and I don't see that happening (Truman seriously wanted to demobilize quickly).  Which means somebody other than Truman.

On 12/31/2021 at 11:56 AM, Onboard 2.0 said:

 What would the world be like in a post WWII era with only 1 super power, and no Cold War, and subsequent arms race ?

Do we have a post WWII country with an expensive military, and military industrial complex ?

Yes.  We would be keeping our trade/supply routes still open, and we (the US) would probably need a much larger military infrastructure simply because I don't see how the Soviet Union wouldn't be a massive Vietnam on its own, plus the Chinese situation - no way we invade the Soviets and then ignore the Chinese Communists (who would be supplying them).

On 12/31/2021 at 11:56 AM, Onboard 2.0 said:

Do we get to the moon if we don't have the Russians pushing us to that technology ?

Eventually.  It's a matter of resources and development, and the personnel would certainly be different. Without a Soviet Union, the Air Force doesn't get the massive resources thrown into ballistic missile research, as those resources would probably be diverted into other systems and into maintaining control over the Soviet Union and China.

So the personnel that would have taken us to the moon very well might have had to wait decades, and what happens then?  Do we get there without a Wernher von Braun who died 8 years after the moon landings started?  Where does Chris Kraft end up?   A military contractor designing systems or whatever? The people who made the moon landings a success would have all been scattered to the winds.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Thanks,

 

Yep, I've always though that the massive soviet build up in 44-45 on the western front could potentially require a nuke to shut them down if we couldn't beat them with conventional arms, and there would be many who advocated saving lives by dropping nukes.

 

Not sure about the trade route stuff, haven't thought that thru that much, but China would have been the next domino we'd have had to knock down.  War could have gone on into the late 40's probably.  They lost 22m people in the war, and their military and infrastructure was pretty F'ed up so not sure how much of a threat they'd have been with fighting men or material they could funnel to Russia

 

Yes, eventually we'd have gotten there ?  It consolidated resources as you pointed out (manpower especially)  I know when it's crunch time I get some very good creative juices going.

[FartingMonk 3625]

I think at that point we were tired of war.  An intervention with Russia would not be good in the public eye.  I don't want to being race into it but I have to.  If it were against an Asian country no doubt we would have fought.  Against mother Russia not so much

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

I think at that point we were tired of war.  An intervention with Russia would not be good in the public eye.  I don't want to being race into it but I have to.  If it were against an Asian country no doubt we would have fought.  Against mother Russia not so much

You can't separate race from WWII, especially when discussing Japan (or any other far eastern culture).  I agree people were damned tired of war.  That's why had we propagated a further war with Russia nukes would have been put on the table pretty quickly.

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

16 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

I don't want to being race into it but I have to.  If it were against an Asian country no doubt we would have fought. 

But just a few years later we did not invade China despite MacArthur's shenanigans. I guess you could say we wouldn't have been in Korea to begin with, but I don't think race had much to do with that. Had the same conditions existed in Greece or somewhere like that I bet we would have brought in the peacekeepers for another 70-year war if necessary.

But then, are Greeks really white people? 

 

(kidding) 

[FartingMonk 3625]

Just saying would we have nuked Germany?  Prewar the German bund was like 2 million strong and super active in the political community.  They weren't sent to any camps

[FartingMonk 3625]

Oh and if we want to discuss a waste on lend lease have to bring Chiang Kai shek into the discussion he was saving the material to defeat chairman mao

[Captainant 28574]

17 hours ago, FartingMonk said:

Just saying would we have nuked Germany?  Prewar the German bund was like 2 million strong and super active in the political community.  They weren't sent to any camps

The Manhattan Project was running to beat the nazis to the bomb first - there were numerous allied commando raids to frustrate the german nuclear effort. If Germany hadn't surrendered/collapsed, they definitely would have been on the target list after the functional trinity demonstration 

[Armybrat 41422]

17 hours ago, FartingMonk said:

Oh and if we want to discuss a waste on lend lease have to bring Chiang Kai shek into the discussion he was saving the material to defeat chairman mao

When we lived in Taipei 1957-59 while Dad was part of the MAAG that was “advising” the Nationalist Army, he related the cynical story about how during WW2 the Generalissimo demanded $100 million in gold upfront to build the gravel runways in China that were to be used by our B-29s to bomb the Japanese. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

28 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

When we lived in Taipei 1957-59 while Dad was part of the MAAG that was “advising” the Nationalist Army, he related the cynical story about how during WW2 the Generalissimo demanded $100 million in gold upfront to build the gravel runways in China that were to be used by our B-29s to bomb the Japanese. 

Gotta love a capitalist at heart....

[BabaYaga 15629]

52 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

When we lived in Taipei 1957-59 while Dad was part of the MAAG that was “advising” the Nationalist Army, he related the cynical story about how during WW2 the Generalissimo demanded $100 million in gold upfront to build the gravel runways in China that were to be used by our B-29s to bomb the Japanese. 

China has always been a fragmented mess going back to the Mongols.  Centralized leaders sacrificing entire swathes of the population for control and power.  Japan decimated their populace, only to be outdone by Mao.  Read and re-read the Rape of Nanking and can't imagine the horrors the Chinese have endured over the years from both foreign and domestic leaders.  

[BabaYaga 15629]

19 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

But then, are Greeks really white people?

They have their benefits....