Destruction of the working class

[Nice Guy Eddie 13412]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/opinion/sunday/deaths-despair-poverty.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
 

Good read on pointing out a problem we all know exists but we don’t do much about it. While I agree that there are systematic problems but is that the sole cause of their lack of ambition?  The main characters of the story are a working class family where only 1 out of 5 kids, from the 70s, is still alive. Their elderly mom is in despair about it but none of them even finished high school. Wtf mom.

one of the positive stories is now someone in the next generation who has fought drug and anger issues but now has a steady job of working at a hotel and has sole custody of his son.  Sounds like a good move but then there’s a pic of him getting a new tattoo. Is that really a priority?

i wonder if there are just some people that we need to create jobs for them even if the jobs produce little value. Ask them to dig a hole and then move the hole 6 feet to the left.  Here’s $100 for the days “work”.

[TwiceHorn 31272]

Well, education policy is supposedly aimed at preventing this.

Economic policy, too.

We keep trying to avoid it, but there are some stupid fuckers out there, and even if they had some ambition, don't have much to offer.

It seems that "retraining" people for other jobs may be the key, as it may have been in other countries.

Edited January 12, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Message Board User 12389]

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, education policy is supposedly aimed at preventing this.

Economic policy, too.

We keep trying to avoid it, but there are some stupid fuckers out there, and even if they had some ambition, don't have much to offer.

This is decidedly un-PC but there are a lot of people (of all races) who are miserable, seem to enjoy being miserable and bitter, and lack any sense of work ethic or ambition.  Fuck them.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Perhaps if the folks that run our economy weren’t soulless sociopaths that profit off crushing the working class things would be different?

Free markets have consequences and one of those consequences is corporate control of society (fascism.)

Edited January 12, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Sbbruin 21733]

24 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Ask them to dig a hole and then move the hole 6 feet to the left.  Here’s $100 for the days “work”.

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13412]

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

 

There are few situations where a caddy shack quote isn’t appropriate. The problem is that there are few ditchdigger jobs even available. Or the high school dropout has shown little reliability and definitely hasn’t been trained on how to use the equipment.  They’re best possible job is mcdonalds, or Uber if their parents buy them a car. 

i can’t imagine how difficult it must be to not even have a high school diploma. When that happens, some try to go with a GED or some pathetic certificate that really means very little.  While that can show some drive, many don’t realize that is the bare minimum.

[Incredulity 11564]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Perhaps if the folks that run our economy weren’t soulless sociopaths that profit off crushing the working class things would be different?

Free markets have consequences and one of those consequences is corporate control of society (fascism.)

My god you’re a fucking beating.

Next time you’re in Chicago or NY or Atlanta or any other big city take a can ride and ask the guy driving what he thinks of America and the opportunity that is here.

 

[GopherRock 1765]

 

[formermav43 4599]

3 hours ago, Message Board User said:

This is decidedly un-PC but there are a lot of people (of all races) who are miserable, seem to enjoy being miserable and bitter, and lack any sense of work ethic or ambition.  Fuck them.

Minus the ambition part, perhaps, this sounds like a large percentage of surly.

[Sbbruin 21733]

20 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

My god you’re a fucking beating.

Next time you’re in Chicago or NY or Atlanta or any other big city take a can ride and ask the guy driving what he thinks of America and the opportunity that is here.

 

Interesting you bring that up.  I had a great convo with a Lyft driver from Colombia.  He was taking classes and driving on the side.  He loved that if you were willing to put in the effort, the opportunity was there.  He said in Colombia the opportunity simply didn’t exist for many people.

so it’s all relative.  Still the best place to live in the world IMO.

[hornhorn 100]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

i can’t imagine how difficult it must be to not even have a high school diploma. When that happens, some try to go with a GED or some pathetic certificate that really means very little.  While that can show some drive, many don’t realize that is the bare minimum.

It isn't the best situation but about 20% of our jobs are in service industry that require employees badly. They don't care about GED or high school diploma as long as you show up to work on time and sober 4 times out of 5. But not having a high school diploma correlates with decrease in sobriety as well. So....

[Incredulity 11564]

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/opinion/sunday/deaths-despair-poverty.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
 

Good read on pointing out a problem we all know exists but we don’t do much about it. While I agree that there are systematic problems but is that the sole cause of their lack of ambition?  The main characters of the story are a working class family where only 1 out of 5 kids, from the 70s, is still alive. Their elderly mom is in despair about it but none of them even finished high school. Wtf mom.

one of the positive stories is now someone in the next generation who has fought drug and anger issues but now has a steady job of working at a hotel and has sole custody of his son.  Sounds like a good move but then there’s a pic of him getting a new tattoo. Is that really a priority?

i wonder if there are just some people that we need to create jobs for them even if the jobs produce little value. Ask them to dig a hole and then move the hole 6 feet to the left.  Here’s $100 for the days “work”.

I actually know the town described in this article.

Its a very small farming community 40ish miles west of Portland.  Contrary to the articles description there has never been alot of working class opportunity in Yamhill.  No factories or  manufacturing.  

[Junior Miller 1502]

33 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Interesting you bring that up.  I had a great convo with a Lyft driver from Colombia.  He was taking classes and driving on the side.  He loved that if you were willing to put in the effort, the opportunity was there.  He said in Colombia the opportunity simply didn’t exist for many people.

so it’s all relative.  Still the best place to live in the world IMO.

If you're born white American then it is. If you're from a failed country like Colombia (which US had a big hand in fucking up) then it's better than the failed country but pretty much any developed Western society can offer similar opportunity. 

Quality of life is far better in some other places. The rise of populism and overt racism in America is making it less desirable even for American born non-white citizens. I'm a few years away from being able to sell my company and retire to Portugal which is remarkably stable and was my favorite place to live during my European professional futbol days (England was the absolute worst place I lived).

There's two main problems with the "working class".

1) many of them are lazy/unambitious/stupid as fuck. We're seeing just how many of these people are out there with the rise of social media.

2) there's a glass ceiling on even the ambitious and talented ones. Unless your talent is something that is in very short supply and incredibly marketable (make professional athlete) there's just a ton of barriers to success to achieving beyond the basic needs (shelter/food). The internet has busted down some of those barriers as it allows you to go outside the traditional chain of college-employee-promotion. It's what I did as I found the discrimination was unbearable in the traditional chain and I had to make my own path, but that took many years, a lot of ability, and a seed investment fund from my professional athlete days to get started. Very few people in America outside the "privileged class" have those advantages. 

There's really no way to fix the problem of people who are lazy and/or stupid. There are ways to mitigate the issues and try to insure people with talent and ambition have a way to rise to higher levels of success without as many discriminatory barriers. 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Junior Miller

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

My god you’re a fucking beating.

Next time you’re in Chicago or NY or Atlanta or any other big city take a can ride and ask the guy driving what he thinks of America and the opportunity that is here.

“We’re not the third world yet!” is a nice sales pitch. 

if I asked the slaves back in the 1830s what they thought about their sweet outdoor jobs and owner provided living quarters with free food/clothing, I bet some of them would be appreciative too. 

[Incredulity 11564]

13 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

“We’re not the third world yet!” is a nice sales pitch. 

if I asked the slaves back in the 1830s what they thought about their sweet outdoor jobs and owner provided living quarters with free food/clothing, I bet some of them would be appreciative too. 

You should strongly consider gainful employment.  You will learn quite a bit.

[Aqua Buddha 14509]

Both the liberals and the conservatives are correct in the root causes.  It's both cultural (conservatives) and economic (liberals).  There needs to be more support for the working class in terms of education, health care, housing, etc.  However, if you're going to drop out of high school in the 9th grade and/or be a junkie, there isn't much public policy can do for you at that point.

This baby doesn't have a chance in this world:

[washparkhorn 9935]

The lack of a working class has hollowed out the middle class that relies on working class customers. The failure of the middle class will undercut the professional and managerial class. 
 

But don’t worry, the overlords in the top .01% will be alright. They will just move to greener pastures. 
 

The wealth gap is increasing. That is an intentional economic policy decision. A bad one for all but the very very few

[LABEVO 928]

Not a Yang fan but his book touches on this topic. I don’t believe it is cultural issue and only an economic. 

We are actually short on ditch diggers  

 

[tx 3 putt 76370]

2 hours ago, Junior Miller said:

2) there's a glass ceiling on even the ambitious and talented ones.

 

better to be born rich, than smart 

 

[NWBuck 8547]

2 hours ago, Junior Miller said:

There's really no way to fix the problem of people who are lazy and/or stupid. There are ways to mitigate the issues and try to insure people with talent and ambition have a way to rise to higher levels of success without as many discriminatory barriers. 

Vance discusses this a bit in Hillbilly Elegy, and holds that for many of the "lazy and stupid" folks, their inability to have hope for their success undercuts their ambition and willingness to develop their talents. They've (in part) been told that the "others" are going to be given "their" jobs, and that the work their families used to find as meaningful/foundational no longer exists (coal/steel/manufacturing), has been automatized (robots!), or shipped overseas to help keep prices down and profits up. As mentioned earlier, it's impacted by both liberal (social welfare... why bother working?) and conservative (free markets can mean profits over people) mindsets and efforts/policies. 

[Junior Miller 1502]

8 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

Vance discusses this a bit in Hillbilly Elegy, and holds that for many of the "lazy and stupid" folks, their inability to have hope for their success undercuts their ambition and willingness to develop their talents. They've (in part) been told that the "others" are going to be given "their" jobs, and that the work their families used to find as meaningful/foundational no longer exists (coal/steel/manufacturing), has been automatized (robots!), or shipped overseas to help keep prices down and profits up. As mentioned earlier, it's impacted by both liberal (social welfare... why bother working?) and conservative (free markets can mean profits over people) mindsets and efforts/policies. 

I'm sure that's part of it, but that's where ambition and innovation come into play. Yes, your manufacturing jobs are gone. But in the last 20 years a massive industry based on computerized commerce and the internet has sprung up with tons of monatization potential. Those who shifted and adapted have been able to make a better living while others were left behind. 

But there are a lot of people who refuse to do anything to help their own situation. Refuse to relocate to improve. Refuse to learn a new trade to improve. The US economy is sufficiently massive to carve out a living if you have a little talent and a lot of willingness/ability to adapt. That's the best thing about this country. 

[NWBuck 8547]

2 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

But there are a lot of people who refuse to do anything to help their own situation. Refuse to relocate to improve. Refuse to learn a new trade to improve. The US economy is sufficiently massive to carve out a living if you have a little talent and a lot of willingness/ability to adapt. That's the best thing about this country. 

Yup. And there are tons of people moving from the industrial midwest for just the reasons you mention. That can also be challenging if they don't have the networks (community, family) who support those decisions (instead of being tribal), if they don't have the finances to make a move (their equity has gone to crap with the economy's shift, and growing cities means expensive housing). Also, Yang talks about how many of these folks weren't great in school (because of aptitude or attitude- they knew they had "the plant" to work at), so asking them (particularly in middle age) to learn new skills and technology is an uphill battle.

Not disagreeing with you... just sharing things I've learned from reading and talking to my fellow poor white trash relatives.

[Zavala 1384]

It's by design btw. The financial sector and government colluding to fuck over the people who do the work. The dollar keeps getting weaker, the debt keeps growing, and the scheme keeps working.

[NWBuck 8547]

2 minutes ago, Zavala said:

It's by design btw. The financial sector and government colluding to fuck over the people who do the work. The dollar keeps getting weaker, the debt keeps growing, and the scheme keeps working.

(and we blame the other workers- the brown and black ones, the ones from or in other countries- instead of the folks at the top of this dog pile)

[Junior Miller 1502]

18 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

Yup. And there are tons of people moving from the industrial midwest for just the reasons you mention. That can also be challenging if they don't have the networks (community, family) who support those decisions (instead of being tribal), if they don't have the finances to make a move (their equity has gone to crap with the economy's shift, and growing cities means expensive housing). Also, Yang talks about how many of these folks weren't great in school (because of aptitude or attitude- they knew they had "the plant" to work at), so asking them (particularly in middle age) to learn new skills and technology is an uphill battle.

Not disagreeing with you... just sharing things I've learned from reading and talking to my fellow poor white trash relatives.

No doubt it's definitely a very complex issue with countless variables. I'm just relieved to know our marvelous leadership is on top of doing nothing constructive about it. 

[Zavala 1384]

12 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

(and we blame the other workers- the brown and black ones, the ones from or in other countries- instead of the folks at the top of this dog pile)

We?

[atomheartbevo 89427]

8 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

i wonder if there are just some people that we need to create jobs for them even if the jobs produce little value. Ask them to dig a hole and then move the hole 6 feet to the left.  Here’s $100 for the days “work”.

Digging holes?  How about cleaning up trash in cities, landscaping, doing unboxing videos on YouTube.  Those are the jobs the folks you are talking about can do.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

I played high school basketball in a Works Progress Administration gymnasium that is still standing. Between the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl, there were few opportunities for work whether you wanted it or not. Our community was rather proud of the building. I don't know if that type of program would work today, but I notice quite a few of the people where we live now making remarks about the homeless (not as many in number as Austin) and how they wish the police would 'relocate them.' No consideration as to why or who or what or when, just make them disappear.

It's funny that they cannot seem to grasp that the homeless man on the corner could be helped with holistic programs that could turn his life around for pennies on the dollar compared to the grift occurring at the top levels of society. It is not socialism to have programs and institutions that help people lead fulfilling productive lives. It is human and (should be) democratic. It provides citizens an opportunity to contribute to their community and their country.

[cactusflinthead 27594]

I'm getting too pissed off to reply properly. 

I'm thinking 90% of y'all don't have to sweat for your money. 

There are plenty of working class jobs. Depending on where you live. We need electricians, ironworkers, masons, you name it and I can point you in the direction of a gig. If you are willing to sweat, I can probably put you to work. 

Any of y'all picked up day labor across from the courthouse? On a drizzly day in early February? 

I'll see your Hillbilly Elegy and raise you some Bitter Southerner.

 

[hornhorn 100]

1 hour ago, Zavala said:

It's by design btw. The financial sector and government colluding to fuck over the people who do the work. The dollar keeps getting weaker, the debt keeps growing, and the scheme keeps working.

Is it opposite day?

[Zavala 1384]

10 minutes ago, hornhorn said:

Is it opposite day?

huh?

[Incredulity 11564]

15 minutes ago, Zavala said:

huh?

“Dollar getting weaker” would most commonly be understood as a reference to international exchange.

[Celery Man 20886]

If there are plenty of good paying jobs for people of below average intelligence (which is half the population) we're doing a shitty job helping them get into those jobs. It is not easy as a person with nothing in particular going for him/her to get a job that allows you to own a home and a car and not be buried in debt and not be waiting for your next paycheck to clear and do things like raise some kids and take them down to the beach or whatever every now and then and pay for extracurricular shit and send them off to college when they're done.  "It's not supposed to be easy" - sure it is.  It's not supposed to be free and it's not supposed to come without work but it's supposed to be easy enough for that big thick middle part of the curve (even lower middle) to mostly find their way.  Sure we have more screens and gizmos and some of us find solace in avocado toast but it's successful millennials that are enjoying the middle class lifestyle.

[TwiceHorn 31272]

39 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

I'm getting too pissed off to reply properly. 

I'm thinking 90% of y'all don't have to sweat for your money. 

There are plenty of working class jobs. Depending on where you live. We need electricians, ironworkers, masons, you name it and I can point you in the direction of a gig. If you are willing to sweat, I can probably put you to work. 

Any of y'all picked up day labor across from the courthouse? On a drizzly day in early February? 

I'll see your Hillbilly Elegy and raise you some Bitter Southerner.

 

By the metric of that article, those jobs are middle class jobs. And I think the reality is that those would be or are middle class jobs.

The article really intends to refer to unskilled labor, people unsuited to do the work you mention.

The article kind of euphemizes the whole permanent or near-permanent underclass to which Moynihan referred.

I think it may be somewhat naive to believe that emphasizing unions and labor would have prevented this.  The people referred to in the article are the ones that used to sweep floors in machine shops.  When there were a lot of machine shops, there were a lot of those jobs.  Now there aren't.

For example, in Germany, automakers and other union industries realized what the falling of the iron curtain meant and collaborated to prevent the wholesale exportation of their industry to central and eastern Europe (en route to Asia), and preserve some jobs.  But I think even they would acknowledge that that is only a temporary measure that technology and globalization will overcome. 

Perhaps that "stay of execution" is all that's needed to permit a more orderly transition from unskilled to semi-skilled.

Edited January 13, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[tx 3 putt 76370]

100% we should bring back the WPA 

[LABEVO 928]

It isn’t the lack of jobs but the quality of jobs. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13412]

2 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

I'm getting too pissed off to reply properly. 

I'm thinking 90% of y'all don't have to sweat for your money. 

There are plenty of working class jobs. Depending on where you live. We need electricians, ironworkers, masons, you name it and I can point you in the direction of a gig. If you are willing to sweat, I can probably put you to work. 

Any of y'all picked up day labor across from the courthouse? On a drizzly day in early February? 

I'll see your Hillbilly Elegy and raise you some Bitter Southerner.

 

Yes but you’re also mentioned skilled jobs and somehow we’ve ended up with a very large unskilled workforce. Perhaps people have some limited training that basically either pays them barely above minimum or there are few jobs.

we used to have people that would hop on a ship with effectively a $1, without speaking English, and come over to America. Now some Americans can’t even keep going to the same job everyday.  And I’m putting the blame on someone on being lazy.  Why are they unmotivated or unwilling to see that earning a good living is a long term commitment.

theres other threads on Yang but I agree with him that we need to figure out what are we going to do with 20, 30, 40% of the population that are practically unemployable.  And this sector is growing not shrinking.  And it’s foolish to think that we can retrain everyone to be programmers or nurses. 

[safe sex 11678]

Poverty literally changes the morphology of a person's brain, soooo..

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

 SkillsUSA is a national program available in many high schools that can help prepare students for a variety of skilled positions in a wide range of careers, many of which do not need much in the way of higher education. Texas has a lot of students who participate but maybe other states don't. One of my children has participated and they had quite a few students qualify in the state competition and a large group went to Nationals (alas, my child's team placed third and didn't qualify).

Another child took shop in 8th grade and she absolutely loved it but the program was axed (budget cuts) two years later so no one else in the family was able to do it. It was a shame because it gave her a lot of satisfaction to learn, to make, to have a finished product.

Back to Skills USA though: perhaps it could be better funded and/or promoted? So many students participate in athletics in high school and while athletics is important, the way it is structured nowadays with very little time off, it can be quite difficult for students to fit in other activities and something like Skills then becomes just another task to perform instead of a way to determine an endeavor one might enjoy pursuing as a career. I don't mean to malign sports, they are a part of American culture, but they do dominate the educational landscape in ways that can squeeze out other opportunities for learning.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Mrs Whiggins
I canna do English tonight.

[NWBuck 8547]

32 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

Poverty literally changes the morphology of a person's brain, soooo..

Not so much poverty (although the mindset can be debilitating), but the compromises and choices that poverty leads to.

[Rougarou 594]

The best example I can think of is the Oil Field from 2000-2020. "You can call me White Trash but you are jealous of my Oil Cash" bumper stickers on the backs of their Raptors. These are folks with GED/HS, making 80k-150k* (Overtime pay, hazard pay and during the boom years of 2005-2012) and living a very solidly middle class life. Yes we need more jobs and industries like that-- I imagine that is what being a Ford conveyor belt employee used to feel like or being a coal miner. But on the other end of the spectrum, if we allow for that sort of living, we have to also make room to grow or advance what the professional middle class is making or where is the incentive to get a degree, become a professional, etc.? I mean, we all know oil field guys making more than lawyers, etc.

[CooterBrown 17907]

theres other threads on Yang but I agree with him that we need to figure out what are we going to do with 20, 30, 40% of the population that are practically unemployable.  And this sector is growing not shrinking.  And it’s foolish to think that we can retrain everyone to be programmers or nurses. 

Need to track non-college bound students and get them out of high school with vocational skills. If we balk at that, maybe make school year round with the summer term dedicated to vocational learning for all.

[pacman 7329]

11 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Perhaps if the folks that run our economy weren’t soulless sociopaths that profit off crushing the working class things would be different?

Free markets have consequences and one of those consequences is corporate control of society (fascism.)

What free markets?

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 minutes ago, pacman said:

What free markets?

The free markets that use public money to pay private companies to hold low level pot users in a kind of sort of jail for example. Duh.

[safe sex 11678]

Not so much poverty (although the mindset can be debilitating), but the compromises and choices that poverty leads to.

Is there ultimately a difference? I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say

[NWBuck 8547]

22 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

3 hours ago, NWBuck said:

Not so much poverty (although the mindset can be debilitating), but the compromises and choices that poverty leads to.

Is there ultimately a difference? I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say

Just agreeing with you and acknowledging that there are supports and systems that can make a difference. 

[NWBuck 8547]

2 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

Need to track non-college bound students and get them out of high school with vocational skills. If we balk at that, maybe make school year round with the summer term dedicated to vocational learning for all.

 

The way I've heard this is "Everyone should have the opportunity to go to college, but not everyone should do so." 

A challenge is that this undercuts the American ideal of "You can be anything you want to be in this land of opportunity" (even though we know that isn't realistic). It also leads to the possibility that people who have been left out of opportunities are never given any chance to change that (kids born in neighborhoods with terrible schools may never be identified for college bound paths). Many of the countries where this kind of tracking happens often have a smaller population, less "spread" across socioeconomic statuses, or a foundational national philosophy that supports this (unlike our ideal of democratic meritocracy). 

Uplifting meaningful vocation (like the jobs in this thread) and providing training, having employers in specific fields stop using college diplomas as shortcut certifications for employment, and continuing to work on helping students from historically under resourced communities would certainly go a long way in addressing this. 

[RayDog 682]

The lower 80 percentile UN 15-64 year old population estimate, the one I trust, estimates a growth of 10 million over the next 20 years. That is about 40,000 new employees a month on average. 

So even with more automation there will be job openings and unemployment will remain low. There will be opportunities for those who want to work and have marketable skills, or are otherwise able to show up for a job.

Republicans could not have picked a worse time to stymie immigration.

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

17 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

They’re best possible job is mcdonalds, or Uber if their parents buy them a car. 

You are underestimating the pharmaceutical testing industry. They can be human lab rats. 

[TwiceHorn 31272]

10 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

 SkillsUSA is a national program available in many high schools that can help prepare students for a variety of skilled positions in a wide range of careers, many of which do not need much in the way of higher education. Texas has a lot of students who participate but maybe other states don't. One of my children has participated and they had quite a few students qualify in the state competition and a large group went to Nationals (alas, my child's team placed third and didn't qualify).

Another child took shop in 8th grade and she absolutely loved it but the program was axed (budget cuts) two years later so no one else in the family was able to do it. It was a shame because it gave her a lot of satisfaction to learn, to make, to have a finished product.

Back to Skills USA though: perhaps it could be better funded and/or promoted? So many students participate in athletics in high school and while athletics is important, the way it is structured nowadays with very little time off, it can be quite difficult for students to fit in other activities and something like Skills then becomes just another task to perform instead of a way to determine an endeavor one might enjoy pursuing as a career. I don't mean to malign sports, they are a part of American culture, but they do dominate the educational landscape in ways that can squeeze out other opportunities for learning.

I think one of the problems of this "class" of people is that they don't go to school.  They may go enough to graduate, but they don't take being there or being on time seriously.  They aren't going to get much out of anything offered at school.

This habit carries over to jobs in a lot of cases.  And that, as much or more than intelligence or actual laziness once at/on the job, probably influences their "career path" as much as anything.

As one of my first bosses told me, half the game is suiting up and showing up.