Destruction of the working class

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,546]

14 hours ago, Junior Miller said:

I'm sure that's part of it, but that's where ambition and innovation come into play. Yes, your manufacturing jobs are gone. But in the last 20 years a massive industry based on computerized commerce and the internet has sprung up with tons of monatization potential. Those who shifted and adapted have been able to make a better living while others were left behind. 

But there are a lot of people who refuse to do anything to help their own situation. Refuse to relocate to improve. Refuse to learn a new trade to improve. The US economy is sufficiently massive to carve out a living if you have a little talent and a lot of willingness/ability to adapt. That's the best thing about this country. 

While technological innovation has occurred at an ever increasing rate, TI is not something unique to the latter part of the 20th century and early 21st century. TI occurred throughout the 20th century, yet there is something distinct in terms of prosperity for the working and middle classes in that middle era of the 20th century- the era that created the American middle class as we know it- apart from the early and latter part of the 20th century.

[TwiceHorn 31,273]

10 hours ago, Rougarou said:

The best example I can think of is the Oil Field from 2000-2020. "You can call me White Trash but you are jealous of my Oil Cash" bumper stickers on the backs of their Raptors. These are folks with GED/HS, making 80k-150k* (Overtime pay, hazard pay and during the boom years of 2005-2012) and living a very solidly middle class life. Yes we need more jobs and industries like that-- I imagine that is what being a Ford conveyor belt employee used to feel like or being a coal miner. But on the other end of the spectrum, if we allow for that sort of living, we have to also make room to grow or advance what the professional middle class is making or where is the incentive to get a degree, become a professional, etc.? I mean, we all know oil field guys making more than lawyers, etc.

Of course, a problem there is the consumption with Raptors and jetskis and whatnot.  There was a time, I think, when an uneducated person could "stumble" onto a job like that and even with their profligate spending, retain enough of it to insulate themselves from the slings and arrows of outrageous poverty long enough to continue some success even after that particular well ran dry.

I'm not so sure that's true anymore.  Or it takes a pretty extraordinarily disciplined person not to blow it all on stupid shit.

And don't get me started on tattoos.  Things are expensive as fuck and the underclass types spend all out of proportion to their income and wealth.

Edited January 13, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Mrs Whiggins 13,049]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think one of the problems of this "class" of people is that they don't go to school.  They may go enough to graduate, but they don't take being there or being on time seriously.  They aren't going to get much out of anything offered at school.

Why do you think this problem exists?

[TwiceHorn 31,273]

Just now, Mrs Whiggins said:

Why do you think this problem exists?

It's a natural tendency for a lot of people.  Think how many kids in your high school would have skipped or been chronically late if they could have gotten away with it?  

As with most things, starts with the parents. 

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13,049]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

 Or it takes a pretty extraordinarily disciplined person not to blow it all on stupid shit.

It probably does not help being targeted by consumerism by an early age to the extent that one must actively work to avoid it. It's in the schools, on the phones, and so on. Even one's spiritual advisor has a book deal or tater bucket they are hawking.

 

[Rougarou 594]

To Twice and Mrs. points, I think it goes back to parents and parenting. And in the institutional poverty class, of all races, homes are generally broken to due to drugs/addiction, crime/jail, problems exacerbated with racism, etc.

Its expensive and difficult to be poor. There should be no shame in being poor but it’s also not a very fulfilling existence in and of itself and personally I’ll never be ugly about it and will always be grateful and thankful for being lucky enough to be born when/where/how I was because obviously a ton of the conditions Of privilege are out of our control until we are parents. That’s why I try and pay it forward and spend wisely on private school and stay engaged as a dad and love their mom well knowing I’m a living example, etc. It could still all be for naught however and as parents all we can do is try and give our kids the best odds to whatever you define as a good life. I digress this gorgeous Monday morning...

Edited January 13, 2020 by Rougarou

[TwiceHorn 31,273]

11 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

It probably does not help being targeted by consumerism by an early age to the extent that one must actively work to avoid it. It's in the schools, on the phones, and so on. Even one's spiritual advisor has a book deal or tater bucket they are hawking.

 

Absolutely.  We have created a monster of a consumer culture.  It's almost like a regressive tax.

 

I'm old, and my parents were older still and products of the Depression.  My mother, in particular, was "tight as a tick."  As a result, I was taught to save and to kind of cost-benefit everything.

Edited January 13, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Mrs Whiggins 13,049]

7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's a natural tendency for a lot of people.  Think how many kids in your high school would have skipped or been chronically late if they could have gotten away with it?  

As with most things, starts with the parents.

Thanks for the video clip; I've never seen that movie- may have to watch it now!

I agree that parents play an important part, undoubtedly the most important part, but it also takes a certain amount of self-awareness and introspection for those parents that is hard to come by with generational poverty. Or am I missing something in that clip? How does one create a situation so that our communities have a 'woke' parent where one did not have one before in that family?

[Rougarou 594]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

Absolutely.  We have created a monster of a consumer culture.  It's almost like a regressive tax.

You said it, it’s a culture. Which, again as parents, you have a bit of control in how you can develop children’s brain and habits and health around these things. 

[TwiceHorn 31,273]

10 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Thanks for the video clip; I've never seen that movie- may have to watch it now!

I agree that parents play an important part, undoubtedly the most important part, but it also takes a certain amount of self-awareness and introspection for those parents that is hard to come by with generational poverty. Or am I missing something in that clip? How does one create a situation so that our communities have a 'woke' parent where one did not have one before in that family?

Oh you must.  One of the best movies in a while, to my mind.

It's interesting, neither of my sets of grandparents had any education.  Both grandfathers (and grandmothers) matriculated from one room schoolhouses in the early 20th century.  Yet, somehow my grandfathers were both big on education and sent their collective four children to college before and during WWII, that is after the depression.  There was sacrifice for the "greater good" there.

It would have been as bizarre for my parents aunts and uncles to declare they weren't going to college in the 30s as it would have been for me to do so in the 80s.  And a goodly number of their high school classmates were the same way.  This was in podunk, shitass, south central Arkansas.

I think during the prosperity of the post-war era, a lot of under-qualified people led very comfortable middle class lives.  But they lucked into it and didn't try to pass down (if they ever had any values to begin with), the values that lead to a better life for their children. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Ghost of LL 15,492]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Oh you must.  One of the best movies in a while, to my mind.

It's interesting, neither of my sets of grandparents had any education.  Both grandfathers (and grandmothers) matriculated from one room schoolhouses in the early 20th century.  Yet, somehow my grandfathers were both big on education and sent their collective four children to college before and during WWII, that is after the depression.  There was sacrifice for the "greater good" there.

It would have been as bizarre for my parents aunts and uncles to declare they weren't going to college in the 30s as it would have been for me to do so in the 80s.  And a goodly number of their high school classmates were the same way.  This was in podunk, shitass, south central Arkansas.

I think during the prosperity of the post-war era, a lot of under-qualified people led very comfortable middle class lives.  But they lucked into it and didn't try to pass down (if they ever had any values to begin with), the values that lead to a better life for their children. 

My family's experience was similar.  Both grandfathers had high-school educations, but made sure their kids all went to college.  Before that, both families were relatively poor farmers.

It just takes one generation.  Just one generation to lift a family out of poverty.  Or one generation to consign the entire family to poverty.

We're two generations into this new economic model, in which money isn't made in the coal mines or automotive plants, but with education and knowledge and hard work and entrepreneurial risk.  In two generations, we've pretty well separated the smart from the dumb; the hard-working from the lazy; the ambitious from the content.

Imma gonna let my inner Republican show just a little bit here.  Yeah, there's institutional racism.  If you're black or brown, there are a lot of cards stacked against you.

But if you're white?  What's your excuse?  Imagine who shitty your economic situation would be if we didn't lock up a third of black men and they were instead out there competing against you for jobs.  Imagine where you'd be if we treated meth and opiods like we treated crack cocaine back in the day.

The smart kids who grow up in poverty in small towns?  You see them now working in decent jobs in big cities.  You walk down the streets of Dallas, and you're going to see the top 20% of the graduating class from Ada High School.  But the bottom 80%--they're still in Ada.  Doing shit.

And, again--I'm going to let my Republican flag fly, but I don't really give a shit.  If you're too lazy or stupid to stay in shitty circumstances in a shithole like Ada, Oklahoma, then that's a whole lot of your problem.  There are pathways out.  They're not a secret.  They're taken by plenty of people every day.  But some people just aren't suited to it.

[Incredulity 11,564]

Not just an American problem

 

[Junior Miller 1,502]

3 hours ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

While technological innovation has occurred at an ever increasing rate, TI is not something unique to the latter part of the 20th century and early 21st century. TI occurred throughout the 20th century, yet there is something distinct in terms of prosperity for the working and middle classes in that middle era of the 20th century- the era that created the American middle class as we know it- apart from the early and latter part of the 20th century.

Well yeah that's the sweet spot between the beginning of the industrial revolution where there were zero regulations and employers took full advantage to fuck over their employees and the recent 40 years where gigantic conglomerates began to buy off politicians to rig the laws in their favor and fuck over the employees more and more. There was that middle ground where unions arose and regulations protecting the worker were strongest while there was little to no foreign outsourcing of manufacturing being done. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,412]

Agree 100% on the earlier comment related to showing up every day can be half of your battle.  That lesson should start in school. Show up every day, and as long as you're not a dick to everyone, you will generally find that people help you.  Showing up every day and struggling in the math, the teacher will go out of their way to assist you.  Show up the day before the final when you need an 95+ on the exam to get a C, the teacher is going to barely help you.

My deadbeat BIL has been allowing my nephew to skip high school because he doesn't want to go.  I imagine there is some unfinished homework or a test that hasn't been studied for yet.  What are the odds my nephew is going to succeed in life with that work ethic. "boss is mean to you, ghost the job.  or pretend to get hurt to get disability."

 

[LABEVO 928]

2 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

My family's experience was similar.  Both grandfathers had high-school educations, but made sure their kids all went to college.  Before that, both families were relatively poor farmers.

It just takes one generation.  Just one generation to lift a family out of poverty.  Or one generation to consign the entire family to poverty.

We're two generations into this new economic model, in which money isn't made in the coal mines or automotive plants, but with education and knowledge and hard work and entrepreneurial risk.  In two generations, we've pretty well separated the smart from the dumb; the hard-working from the lazy; the ambitious from the content.

Imma gonna let my inner Republican show just a little bit here.  Yeah, there's institutional racism.  If you're black or brown, there are a lot of cards stacked against you.

But if you're white?  What's your excuse?  Imagine who shitty your economic situation would be if we didn't lock up a third of black men and they were instead out there competing against you for jobs.  Imagine where you'd be if we treated meth and opiods like we treated crack cocaine back in the day.

The smart kids who grow up in poverty in small towns?  You see them now working in decent jobs in big cities.  You walk down the streets of Dallas, and you're going to see the top 20% of the graduating class from Ada High School.  But the bottom 80%--they're still in Ada.  Doing shit.

And, again--I'm going to let my Republican flag fly, but I don't really give a shit.  If you're too lazy or stupid to stay in shitty circumstances in a shithole like Ada, Oklahoma, then that's a whole lot of your problem.  There are pathways out.  They're not a secret.  They're taken by plenty of people every day.  But some people just aren't suited to it.

My only critique is with the bold. When in absolute poverty, the individuals do not have the resources or ability to escape their environment due to the cost and lack of support structure to move. I am not talking about Joe and Jane that make $30k -$50k that just need to save to make the move. The individuals making sub-$25k can never save enough to escape the geographical poverty trap.  

[Rougarou 594]

More than anything, the smarter you can become, the better. Whether it is self taught/auto-didactic (we've all heard stories of guys who taught themselves to code, entrepreneurs that drop out, etc.) or brains being cultivated through more traditional means.

Check out Slide 15 (JPMC Asset Management) on the Stock Market since 1900. https://am.jpmorgan.com/us/en/asset-management/gim/adv/insights/guide-to-the-markets/viewer

The key take away from me from looking at the last 120 years is that we can't stop innovation and growth. If the working class is dead then we have to artificially manufacture it (bridges to nowhere, shovel ready programs to build even more public storage units in a plague of them, WPA as mentioned above) or we need to enter into a pretty devastating and all-hands-on-deck World War/Civil War (like burning a field down to make it fertile again). That's what that data is telling me.

[HRSchenker 2,259]

4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Absolutely.  We have created a monster of a consumer culture.  It's almost like a regressive tax.

 

I'm old, and my parents were older still and products of the Depression.  My mother, in particular, was "tight as a tick."  As a result, I was taught to save and to kind of cost-benefit everything.

Calling it a monster is putting it lightly. I got shredded for talking about this in another thread but it's so wild to me how our economy and job market is better than it has been in 60 years yet so many people in my generation are broke. People my age are taking out loans to buy $400 shoes, buying the new iPhone ever year, and renting in desirable places but barely making rent. You can't make those claims without being dismissed as "racist" or "boomer" either. 

@Ghost of LL made some really good points. I grew up in a small town and was lucky enough to get out but there are a lot who stayed. One of the biggest mysteries I have yet to solve is the high number of people in small towns who cry about how they want to get out of their small town yet do everything in the power to make sure they stay. It's like openly desiring to be a safer driver but then removing your seat belt and smashing your front headlights. 

[atomheartbevo 89,430]

46 minutes ago, LABEVO said:

My only critique is with the bold. When in absolute poverty, the individuals do not have the resources or ability to escape their environment due to the cost and lack of support structure to move. I am not talking about Joe and Jane that make $30k -$50k that just need to save to make the move. The individuals making sub-$25k can never save enough to escape the geographical poverty trap.  

If they are under the age of 35 (possibly a little younger for the Marines/Navy), have a high school degree or equivalent, a relatively clean background, and are in reasonably good shape (no 'beetus, can see their own feet) they can opt for the military, just as millions have done before them.  

They get a paycheck, healthcare for them and their families,  job security for their 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6-year enlistment (unless they are major fuckups), a roof over their head and food in their bellies, structure and discipline, a solid resume, and the G.I. Bill to get them through college/community college after they leave the service.  If they desire, and again, aren't fuckups, they can make a career out of it, even just a first career, and retire after 20 years and start another career.

And if they have some common sense, they will not do like I did and pick a combat-oriented specialty, and instead pick a speciality that translates to the outside world, such as being a mechanic, electrician, computers, medical, or any number of other specialities/fields.

When I came through basic in the early 90s, there were a shit-ton of teens and early 20-somethings who were there because it was their way out, particularly for those who managed to get their young girlfriends/wives pregnant.

Edited January 13, 2020 by atomheartbevo

[Ghost of LL 15,492]

35 minutes ago, LABEVO said:

My only critique is with the bold. When in absolute poverty, the individuals do not have the resources or ability to escape their environment due to the cost and lack of support structure to move. I am not talking about Joe and Jane that make $30k -$50k that just need to save to make the move. The individuals making sub-$25k can never save enough to escape the geographical poverty trap.  

Yeah, yeah.  But not really.

I mean, come on--we've all read The Grapes of Wrath.  We've all seen Dorthea Lange's photographs.  People moved back then even when they had no personal possessions beyond what they could carry.

Why do we not see similar migration patterns from West Virginia or Ohio or Mississippi?

If you're saying that people making less than $25K/year can't save enough to buy a plane ticket to Houston and set themselves up in an apartment for a couple months while they look for a job, then I'd agree.  But that's the luxury version of this type of relocation.

I go to the barber at a place here in downtown Austin.  Three times when I went to the barber within the last year, I had a 20-something guy sitting in the chair next to me talking about how he just moved to Austin from some shithole place with no job lined up.  I was blown away--I mean, that's ballsy.  But in each case, they guy said "yeah, I got in town and hit the bricks looking for a job.  It took me a couple days of living in my car, but I got a job tending bar (or whatever) on the third day."

So don't tell me that these people can't escape the geographical poverty trap when I see people who have done it every damned day in Austin/Dallas/Houston.

What you're saying is that escaping the geographical poverty trap requires a certain level of intelligence, work-ethic, and ambition that most people in that trap don't have.  And with that, I would certainly agree.  But it's far from impossible.  It's not even all that unusual.  

[NWBuck 8,547]

14 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

Calling it a monster is putting it lightly. I got shredded for talking about this in another thread but it's so wild to me how our economy and job market is better than it has been in 60 years yet so many people in my generation are broke. People my age are taking out loans to buy $400 shoes, buying the new iPhone ever year, and renting in desirable places but barely making rent. You can't make those claims without being dismissed as "racist" or "boomer" either. 

To be fair, in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks, people were encouraged to (among other things) go shopping; 'cause if we don't, the terrorists win. It's foundational to our American ethos, and there are a lot of people who are deeply invested in ensuring that this will never change.

[Mrs Whiggins 13,049]

3 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

My family's experience was similar.  Both grandfathers had high-school educations, but made sure their kids all went to college.  Before that, both families were relatively poor farmers.

It just takes one generation.  Just one generation to lift a family out of poverty.  Or one generation to consign the entire family to poverty.

We're two generations into this new economic model, in which money isn't made in the coal mines or automotive plants, but with education and knowledge and hard work and entrepreneurial risk.  In two generations, we've pretty well separated the smart from the dumb; the hard-working from the lazy; the ambitious from the content.

Imma gonna let my inner Republican show just a little bit here.  Yeah, there's institutional racism.  If you're black or brown, there are a lot of cards stacked against you.

But if you're white?  What's your excuse?  Imagine who shitty your economic situation would be if we didn't lock up a third of black men and they were instead out there competing against you for jobs.  Imagine where you'd be if we treated meth and opiods like we treated crack cocaine back in the day.

The smart kids who grow up in poverty in small towns?  You see them now working in decent jobs in big cities.  You walk down the streets of Dallas, and you're going to see the top 20% of the graduating class from Ada High School.  But the bottom 80%--they're still in Ada.  Doing shit.

And, again--I'm going to let my Republican flag fly, but I don't really give a shit.  If you're too lazy or stupid to stay in shitty circumstances in a shithole like Ada, Oklahoma, then that's a whole lot of your problem.  There are pathways out.  They're not a secret.  They're taken by plenty of people every day.  But some people just aren't suited to it.

csb: I know a former mayor of Ada. And I spent several years living in Ardmore. Might give Ada a run for its money.

 

[G650 14,106]

22 hours ago, LABEVO said:

We are actually short on ditch diggers  

This is accurate. If you know any, please send them my way.

[Brisketexan 104,609]

1 hour ago, LABEVO said:

My only critique is with the bold. When in absolute poverty, the individuals do not have the resources or ability to escape their environment due to the cost and lack of support structure to move. I am not talking about Joe and Jane that make $30k -$50k that just need to save to make the move. The individuals making sub-$25k can never save enough to escape the geographical poverty trap.  

 

34 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

What you're saying is that escaping the geographical poverty trap requires a certain level of intelligence, work-ethic, and ambition that most people in that trap don't have.  And with that, I would certainly agree.  But it's far from impossible.  It's not even all that unusual.  

I'll suggest that what's missing is inspiration, imagination, and example.

We impose OUR perspective -- which is one of education, seeing the wider world out there, and for most of us, with significant parental support and example of what it takes to be at least mildly successful -- on folks who have NONE of those things.

You're Cletus from Ada.  You are of middling intelligence.  Your parents are of middling intelligence.  They lived their whole lives in Ada.  Everyone you know has lived their whole life in Ada.  All the examples and evidence you see tells you "staying in Ada" is the path.  And you don't have much imagination -- you really can't see outside of that path.  Yeah, yeah, we can talk about how you should, how you should snap out of it, haul ass to Dallas, and get a real job.  But if that hasn't been modeled for you, we might as well be telling Cletus to flap his arms and fly to the moon -- that seems just as absurd and impossible to him.

The one place that we can turn things, even a little bit, to break the cycle, is education.  Ensure that our education system equips you to be a critical thinker, to see things outside your narrow worldview, and provide some examples of pathways to at least somewhat greater success.  Just expand their view a little bit, and it could help a lot.

Note that this is not isolated to Cletus in Ada.  It's also a problem for an african-american kid in an environment of urban poverty.  Some of those kids never range outside of the 40 block area that is their home turf.  Etc. etc.  It applies to every demographic -- without easily visible examples to follow, and some perspective that allows for imagination of a practical and good future, they're stuck. 

Grandpa didn't need that after the war.  He came home, and the plant was hiring -- everyone was!  He just did what his pal Jimmy did, walked down to the office, applied, and was working a shift two days later.  Nowadays, that's not an option.

[G650 14,106]

6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Absolutely.  We have created a monster of a consumer culture.  It's almost like a regressive tax.

It's interesting, because consumerism was convenient vehicle for supercharging the ripe conditions of the mid 20th century in America. But we seem to have not been able to find a way to unwind that position now as a fully developed economy.

[Incredulity 11,564]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

I'll suggest that what's missing is inspiration, imagination, and example.

We impose OUR perspective -- which is one of education, seeing the wider world out there, and for most of us, with significant parental support and example of what it takes to be at least mildly successful -- on folks who have NONE of those things.

You're Cletus from Ada.  You are of middling intelligence.  Your parents are of middling intelligence.  They lived their whole lives in Ada.  Everyone you know has lived their whole life in Ada.  All the examples and evidence you see tells you "staying in Ada" is the path.  And you don't have much imagination -- you really can't see outside of that path.  Yeah, yeah, we can talk about how you should, how you should snap out of it, haul ass to Dallas, and get a real job.  But if that hasn't been modeled for you, we might as well be telling Cletus to flap his arms and fly to the moon -- that seems just as absurd and impossible to him.

The one place that we can turn things, even a little bit, to break the cycle, is education.  Ensure that our education system equips you to be a critical thinker, to see things outside your narrow worldview, and provide some examples of pathways to at least somewhat greater success.  Just expand their view a little bit, and it could help a lot.

Note that this is not isolated to Cletus in Ada.  It's also a problem for an african-american kid in an environment of urban poverty.  Some of those kids never range outside of the 40 block area that is their home turf.  Etc. etc.  It applies to every demographic -- without easily visible examples to follow, and some perspective that allows for imagination of a practical and good future, they're stuck. 

Grandpa didn't need that after the war.  He came home, and the plant was hiring -- everyone was!  He just did what his pal Jimmy did, walked down to the office, applied, and was working a shift two days later.  Nowadays, that's not an option.

Yes it absolutely is.  Help wanted signs are everywhere.  3.5% unemployment.

You don't have to have many skills, except show up everyday and not be a complete and utter moron.

[Brisketexan 104,609]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Yes it absolutely is.  Help wanted signs are everywhere.  3.5% unemployment.

You don't have to have many skills, except show up everyday and not be a complete and utter moron.

You're not paying attention to the geography portion of this (which is like, the main part of it).

It IS an option in Houston and Dallas.  It is NOT an option in Ada, Oklahoma (certainly not for a job that pays worth a shit -- being a cashier at the Dollar General gets you nowhere).

So, you kinda missed the whole point.  They have to get out of their bubble to find success.  Grandpa didn't.  The plant office was literally down the street, and all of his friends led the way.  He needed to show no imagination or mobility to walk into a good, steady job.

 

EDIT: and we won't even get into discussing the fallacy of 3.5% unemployment.  Yes, there are jobs, but a SHITLOAD of them don't pay shit:

Quote

Despite an unemployment rate that has reached a 50-year low of 3.7 percent, most jobs across the U.S. don’t support a middle-class or better lifestyle, leaving many Americans struggling, according to a new study.

Sixty-two percent of jobs fall short of that middle-class standard when factoring in both wages and the cost of living in the metro area where the job is located

We were speaking of the plight of the working class.  That is, folks who used to be able to work for a living and have a decent life.  So, this is kinda sorta really really relevant.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Brisketexan

[Incredulity 11,564]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You're not paying attention to the geography portion of this (which is like, the main part of it).

It IS an option in Houston and Dallas.  It is NOT an option in Ada, Oklahoma (certainly not for a job that pays worth a shit -- being a cashier at the Dollar General gets you nowhere).

So, you kinda missed the whole point.  They have to get out of their bubble to find success.  Grandpa didn't.  The plant office was literally down the street, and all of his friends led the way.  He needed to show no imagination or mobility to walk into a good, steady job.

Whose grandpa?

Mine had to move from Minneapolis to Portland then to Los Angeles looking for work.

[Biff Tannen 45,494]

A modern version of the WPA and CCC is so perfect for our current situation (hello infrastructure), but I don't see it happening with this administration and frankly, I'm not sure about the Dems either.  Green New Deal would be a step in the right direction for this, but you know, Republicans and all.

[Brisketexan 104,609]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

Whose grandpa?

Mine had to move from Minneapolis to Portland then to Los Angeles looking for work.

Good deal.  Then we get to the other issue I mentioned -- lack of imagination/vision.  I'm not sure WHY that's the case, but it is undeniable.  I mean, I've posted it before - I would love to speak to a crowd of W. Va. coal miners, and tell them "I found your coal jobs!  They're now construction jobs in Houston -- go there!"  But they don't.  They can't/won't even conceive of it.

I don't know exactly why that is.  I just know that it is indeed the case.  A variety of circumstances and phenomena have come together to put the working class in a pinch.  I don't particularly blame one party or another -- I just see that it's a problem, and we're really not taking much of a comprehensive approach to dealing with it.  We're mostly just ignoring it and hoping it will go away.

[BradInATX 9,208]

My grampy worked really hard and moved around from city to city with a carpetbag slung over his shoulder just to find work. Therefore his situation applies to literally every other person in America! I'm intellectual!

[Ghost of LL 15,492]

38 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

I'll suggest that what's missing is inspiration, imagination, and example.

We impose OUR perspective -- which is one of education, seeing the wider world out there, and for most of us, with significant parental support and example of what it takes to be at least mildly successful -- on folks who have NONE of those things.

You're Cletus from Ada.  You are of middling intelligence.  Your parents are of middling intelligence.  They lived their whole lives in Ada.  Everyone you know has lived their whole life in Ada.  All the examples and evidence you see tells you "staying in Ada" is the path.  And you don't have much imagination -- you really can't see outside of that path.  Yeah, yeah, we can talk about how you should, how you should snap out of it, haul ass to Dallas, and get a real job.  But if that hasn't been modeled for you, we might as well be telling Cletus to flap his arms and fly to the moon -- that seems just as absurd and impossible to him.

I'd be real sympathetic if there weren't a thing called the Internet and the Mass Media.  But there are.  And I'm not.

My grandfather moved himself and his entire family from town to town looking for the next slightly better job.  You've told me the story of your father moving in search of work.  It's not that uncommon.  And those guys did it in the days before the Internet.  And yet, somehow they managed.

Cletus has DirecTV and the Internet--because every Cletus has those things, no matter how impoverished.  

I'm not saying he should flap his arms to the moon.  I'm saying that he can watch television and see programs depicting plenty of jobs that pay good money in Houston.  Shit--all he has to do is watch Fox News and they'll tell him all about the miracle of the Trump economy.  Then just hop on the Internet and find your way there, and bingo, bango, boingo--you've improved your station in life.

And yet . . . there are millions of people who are incapable of such simple steps.  And yeah--I'm letting my Republican show, but I really don't give a fuck.

[Mrs Whiggins 13,049]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Whose grandpa?

Mine had to move from Minneapolis to Portland then to Los Angeles looking for work.

Was that with or without his family? Because in my family, grandpa left looking for work and never came back. Left his wife with the children and the bills. Sometimes when one person leaves the bubble there is collateral damage and that can have *destructive effects that last for awhile. The other grandpa grew up essentially an orphan from babyhood after his daddy (a fireman) died fighting a fire in winter. Got shipped out to a farm in the country and was treated like free labor until the Dust Bowl ended the farm and he was 'liberated.'  School came after the work he was required to do and like Brisket said, sometimes you need some positive modeling in order to 'see' what your choices may be.

Sure, that was a large 'whataboutism' I just threw into my anecdote, but I just know (believe) that going from one level of income to another is both easier and harder than it appears on the surface.

 

*one could argue that in this case it was a blessing in disguise as family stories didn't tend to reflect kindly on him apparently even before he left, but he died before I was born so I have no first hand knowledge.

[PhillyD 1,257]

25 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

A modern version of the WPA and CCC is so perfect for our current situation (hello infrastructure), but I don't see it happening with this administration and frankly, I'm not sure about the Dems either.  Green New Deal would be a step in the right direction for this, but you know, Republicans and all.

I always think a WPA or CCC would be awesome but then I think about it and I feel badly for everyone involved.

A modern day version would probably be involve an environmental project like cleaning up a river.  So you have your crew of 10 somewhat unmotivated people.  Some of them manage to show up on time and you get started, but then you have to manage all of their bullshit.  I think managing a make work project in the 30's was a lot easier, if you don't work then the boss sends your ass home and you don't get paid.  In this day and age, you would have to have a bunch of hearings, determine if there is harassment, determine if there were enough modifications made to the job, etc, etc.  I can't imagine the administrative/HR nightmare of trying to manage all of that just to clean up a riverbank.  

We probably ought to figure all of that out, otherwise, we're just going to leave them being poor in Ada. And, just telling them to pull themselves up  by their bootstraps hasn't worked out so well either.

Edited January 13, 2020 by PhillyD

[Ghost of LL 15,492]

7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

My grampy worked really hard and moved around from city to city with a carpetbag slung over his shoulder just to find work. Therefore his situation applies to literally every other person in America! I'm intellectual!

Well, that's a nice strawman you've created.

The point isn't that one person's situation is the same as everyone else's (or anyone else's, for that matter).  

The point is that there is a model for escaping geographical poverty that is regularly followed by some, but not by most.  And it's not a rare model, either.  And it's not, as Brisket would indicate, some big secret known only to the rural illuminati.  It's known and available to anyone who wants to avail him/herself of it.

[BradInATX 9,208]

1 minute ago, Ghost of LL said:

It's known and available to anyone who wants to avail him/herself of it.

Therefore his situation applies to literally every other person in America! I'm intellectual!

[Hank Scorpio 17,723]

Please, guys, you’re both Republicans, stop arguing. Talk about something you can agree on, like taking away people’s healthcare. 

[The Hot Dog Buffet 1,291]

On 1/12/2020 at 12:56 PM, hornhorn said:

It isn't the best situation but about 20% of our jobs are in service industry that require employees badly. They don't care about GED or high school diploma as long as you show up to work on time and sober 4 times out of 5. But not having a high school diploma correlates with decrease in sobriety as well. So....

Yeah, I can't think of anyone who showed up to my high school sober 4 days out of 5 who failed to graduate.

[Ghost of LL 15,492]

Just now, BradInATX said:

Therefore his situation applies to literally every other person in America! I'm intellectual!

The situations are different.  But some of the available solutions aren't.

I'm talking about moving to Houston.  But what about the military, which atom raised above.  We don't need the WPA or the CCC--we have a works project that is significantly large than all of the New-Deal era jobs programs put together.  And while a lot of people take advantage of them, a lot don't.

[BradInATX 9,208]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

The situations are different.  But some of the available solutions aren't.

I'm talking about moving to Houston.  But what about the military, which atom raised above.  We don't need the WPA or the CCC--we have a works project that is significantly large than all of the New-Deal era jobs programs put together.  And while a lot of people take advantage of them, a lot don't.

The solution for income inequality and lack of opportunity is to force poor people to risk their lives to fight wars that do nothing but enrich the already rich!

Join the military you cowards!

Edited January 13, 2020 by BradInATX

[Brisketexan 104,609]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Cletus has DirecTV and the Internet--because every Cletus has those things, no matter how impoverished.  

I'm not saying he should flap his arms to the moon.  I'm saying that he can watch television and see programs depicting plenty of jobs that pay good money in Houston.  Shit--all he has to do is watch Fox News and they'll tell him all about the miracle of the Trump economy.  Then just hop on the Internet and find your way there, and bingo, bango, boingo--you've improved your station in life.

You're assuming he's watching something other than the Kardashians, Floribama Shore, and NASCAR, or looking at anything other than porn and Worldstar on the internet.  He's not.  Metaphorically, the library's right down the street, but Cletus don't go there.

He's busy watching "OW! MY BALLS!"

[Rougarou 594]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

csb: I know a former mayor of Ada. And I spent several years living in Ardmore. Might give Ada a run for its money.

 

You ever had a country ass whoppin? How big an ole boy are ya?

[Mrs Whiggins 13,049]

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

You ever had a country ass whoppin? How big an ole boy are ya?

Is that a joke? Line from a movie? I'm not an 'ole boy.'

[Rougarou 594]

8 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Is that a joke? Line from a movie? I'm not an 'ole boy.'

There’s a radio personality out of Tulsa I think it were who would crank call people with an Ardmore/Ada accent and pull their leg and those were the catchphrases. Sorry, I guess.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_D._Mercer

Edited January 13, 2020 by Rougarou

[seven 1,366]

I'm not much of a fan of telling poor people that if only they had the gumption to risk their bodies (and lives) guarding the interests of corporations for $38k a year in the military, then they would be set for life. 

[MissingInAction 24,817]

18 hours ago, NWBuck said:

Not so much poverty (although the mindset can be debilitating), but the compromises and choices that poverty leads to.

See Vick's friends foods thread for evidence. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13,049]

6 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

There’s a radio personality out of Tulsa I think it were who would crank call people with an Ardmore/Ada accent and pull their leg and those were the catchphrases. Sorry, I guess.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_D._Mercer

Ah, thanks for the info. Sorry if I sounded harsh, hard to understand tone with text.

My folks listened to KRMG and my grandma listened to some (AM) station out of Coffeyville. I didn't listen to a lot of radio til I left home so not super knowledgeable beyond what all I can remember.

[fattyflattie 4,636]

23 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

They're now construction jobs in Houston Austin -- go there!"

I stepped out of what I did for the first decade of my career at my last stop; different industry anyhow.  I had never thought about how many "trade" workers it takes to build these plants all up and down the gulf coast, hell, across the US.  Each site I worked had between 5-8000 "craft" employees.  A large portion of them were skilled.  A large portion of them were anything but skilled, and I sometimes wondered how they even made it that far in life.  Every single one of them made >$20 and worked 60 hours/week.  Many times my men were pulling 80-100 hours a week...   I know that isn't setting the world on fire, but it's a living, and the OT adds up quick.  And I'm not being hyperbolic about the half that weren't skilled - they pay people to fill up and deliver water jugs across site, taped up of course, because someone shit in one once.  Trash pickup, flaggers, cleaning personnel, etc.

Anyhow, another thing I learned is many (most?) of these folks followed the work.  They'd work in Baytown for 3-4 years, then move on to the next project.  Sometimes that was in Pasadena, sometimes it was in Whiting, Indiana.   But, as long as they didn't fuck up completely, they stayed employed.  And even when they did, ain't shit to load up the box and head down the street.  Many had homes, but effectively lived in their campers at man camps.  The jobs are out there, even for the people that can't be trusted to not shit in a water jug.  But you do have to show up to work 6 days a week, and (mostly) not use drugs.

 

[hornhorn 100]

 

 

26 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You're assuming he's watching something other than the Kardashians, Floribama Shore, and NASCAR, or looking at anything other than porn and Worldstar on the internet.  He's not.  Metaphorically, the library's right down the street, but Cletus don't go there.

He's busy watching "OW! MY BALLS!"

 

You're also assuming that if only we taxed Bezos 90% of all his money, and then spent that money into jobs program or something like that Cletus' life is magically going to be better. At some point we have to realize that Cletus cannot be helped. Cletus(a lot by your own admission) is going to be Cletus no matter what. We offer him help with food stamps and WIC or whatever other welfare Cletus can get himself on but that's about it. He isn't a victim of the system but bad to terrible parenting. 

There have always been Cletuses in Ada, Houston, Baltimore and there always will be. Absolutely no sense in throwing good money after bad. 

[Hank Scorpio 17,723]

Lots of good points and discussion in this thread about the decline of the working class. Now guys, what if I told you there was a politician, running for president no less, who has made this issue his #1 priority for over 30 years? Does that sound like something you would be interested in?

[Ghost of LL 15,492]

45 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

The solution for income inequality and lack of opportunity is to force poor people to risk their lives to fight wars that do nothing but enrich the already rich!

Join the military you cowards!

I didn't say that was the solution for income inequality.  That's an entirely different issue.

I said that's a solution that's available to a person who finds himself impoverished with few other available opportunities.

25 minutes ago, seven said:

I'm not much of a fan of telling poor people that if only they had the gumption to risk their bodies (and lives) guarding the interests of corporations for $38k a year in the military, then they would be set for life. 

Well, I hate to tell you, but working in the oil fields is a whole lot more dangerous.  Of course, the pay often is a lot better.

And so what're we left with?  You don't want to impose on the underclass to do anything?  Or at least anything that might benefit the interests of corporations?

I'm sorry, brother, but I'm not signing up for that revolution.

. . . and the funny thing is, judging by the white working class's voting record, neither are they.