Destruction of the working class

[atomheartbevo 89430]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Grandpa didn't need that after the war.  He came home, and the plant was hiring -- everyone was!  He just did what his pal Jimmy did, walked down to the office, applied, and was working a shift two days later.  Nowadays, that's not an option.

Or Grandpa took advantage of the G I Bill, which may have made him the first in his family to attend college.  

Edited January 13, 2020 by atomheartbevo

[atomheartbevo 89430]

58 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

The solution for income inequality and lack of opportunity is to force poor people to risk their lives to fight wars that do nothing but enrich the already rich!

Join the military you cowards!

Well then, let’s just leave them to rot in Shithole, Oklahoma!

Or, you know, let them join and pick a non-combat speciality.   The vast majority will never see combat, especially those who don’t get rented out to the Saudis by Trump .   Everything is fine with Republicans in charge, who keep promising to get us out of never-ending wars.  

Is it a perfect solution?  No, but it has boosted millions of people out of shitty situations, and there’s not much else that can match a lot of the benefits right out of school.  

Edited January 13, 2020 by atomheartbevo

[hornhorn 100]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I didn't say that was the solution for income inequality.  That's an entirely different issue.

I said that's a solution that's available to a person who finds himself impoverished with few other available opportunities.

Well, I hate to tell you, but working in the oil fields is a whole lot more dangerous.  Of course, the pay often is a lot better.

And so what're we left with?  You don't want to impose on the underclass to do anything?  Or at least anything that might benefit the interests of corporations?

I'm sorry, brother, but I'm not signing up for that revolution.

. . . and the funny thing is, judging by the white working class's voting record, neither are they.

 

What he wants for that person is a perfectly safe desk job with a computer that he/she cannot operate crunching numbers he/she cannot calculate.

Is that too much to ask?????

[Ghost of LL 15492]

12 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Lots of good points and discussion in this thread about the decline of the working class. Now guys, what if I told you there was a politician, running for president no less, who has made this issue his #1 priority for over 30 years? Does that sound like something you would be interested in?

Not really.

I'm much more interested in (in no particular order, and without excluding other issues):

1) Income inequality (which is a totally separate issue);

2) Unequal access to education;

3) Climate change;

4) Free and fair trade;

5) Open and humane immigration policies; and

6) Elimination of institutionalized racism and sexism.

Dealing with some of those issues may have beneficial impacts on the working class (though same may have adverse impacts).  But I don't care about the decline of the working class as its own issue.

[Incredulity 11564]

1 minute ago, hornhorn said:

What he wants for that person is a perfectly safe desk job with a computer that he/she cannot operate crunching numbers he/she cannot calculate.

Is that too much to ask?????

No,  he wants transfer payments equal to a middle class lifestyle.  Plus a little more for those that its really not “fair” to expect much of.

[MissingInAction 24818]

Having worked in the public sector for nearly a decade now I would say that 85% of government employees are functionally retarded. 

[Incredulity 11564]

Just now, MissingInAction said:

Having worked in the public sector for nearly a decade now I would say that 85% of government employees are functionally retarded. 

Well, sign me up for single payer!

[NWBuck 8547]

1 minute ago, MissingInAction said:

Having worked in the public sector for nearly a decade now I would say that 85% of government employees are functionally retarded. 

Is that because only those type of people apply for those type of jobs, or because the jobs retard them?

[MissingInAction 24818]

Just now, NWBuck said:

Is that because only those type of people apply for those type of jobs, or because the jobs retard them?

Its the job, or it just goes to show how worthless a degree is. 

[BradInATX 9208]

17 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I didn't say that was the solution for income inequality.  That's an entirely different issue.

I said that's a solution that's available to a person who finds himself impoverished with few other available opportunities.

 

 

But the reason for the lack of opportunity is decades of naked greed and profiteering, and income inequality (both from the inequality itself as well as the pursuit of and legislation of). So you can't really separate the two things out. 

 

 

[BradInATX 9208]

24 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Lots of good points and discussion in this thread about the decline of the working class. Now guys, what if I told you there was a politician, running for president no less, who has made this issue his #1 priority for over 30 years? Does that sound like something you would be interested in?

Sir, this is an Arby's

[BradInATX 9208]

16 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Well then, let’s just leave them to rot in Shithole, Oklahoma!

Or, you know, let them join and pick a non-combat speciality.   The vast majority will never see combat, especially those who don’t get rented out to the Saudis by Trump .   Everything is fine with Republicans in charge, who keep promising to get us out of never-ending wars.  

Is it a perfect solution?  No, but it has boosted millions of people out of shitty situations, and

Fair enough. I have no problem with this.

 

Quote

there’s not much else that can match a lot of the benefits right out of school. 

This is where the problem lies. The fact that the military is one of the few dignified livings that a blue collar type can make is symptomatic of the erosion of both our middle and working classes. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by BradInATX

[Ghost of LL 15492]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

But the reason for the lack of opportunity is decades of naked greed and profiteering, and income inequality (both from the inequality itself as well as the pursuit of and legislation of). So you can't really separate the two things out. 

 

 

I don't think you can simplify it down to greed and profiteering.  There are externalities and internalities that together explain the plight of the working class.

But regardless--I can attack a lot of aspects of income inequality and the negative impacts that it has through a lot of programs (e.g., more strenuous enforcement of antitrust laws, reanimation of the CFPB, enforcement of securities laws) that do little to help the working class.

[MissingInAction 24818]

11 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

Is that because only those type of people apply for those type of jobs, or because the jobs retard them?

It's also nearly impossible to get fired, so nobody gives a fuck about anything. 

[BradInATX 9208]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

But regardless--I can attack a lot of aspects of income inequality and the negative impacts that it has through a lot of programs (e.g., more strenuous enforcement of antitrust laws, reanimation of the CFPB, enforcement of securities laws) that do little to help the working class.

And that's fine. And some of your last point is probably true, but I don't really care about that. I care about the fact that our politicians, much like yourself and Incredulity, think that "join the military!" and "just drag your whole family to Flint!" are adequate answers for the fact that decades of profiteering have eaten the working classes to the point where all that's left is some cartilage clinging onto the bones, and the fact that it's almost impossible to carve out a middle class lifestyle unless you're highly educated, specialized, or already well off. 

"Move to Detroit there's plenty of jobs!" and "join the military!". Ok boomer.

Edited January 13, 2020 by BradInATX

[Ghost of LL 15492]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

 it's almost impossible to carve out a middle class lifestyle unless you're highly educated, specialized, or already well off.

And I'm sorry, but that's just not true.  Unless you're characterizing someone with an associates' degree as "highly educated."  But working in law, I see plenty of people with associates and bachelors degrees who do just fine.  And as I look over in other fields with which I work, I see lots of other people who don't have advanced degrees but who are doing reasonably well.

[hornhorn 100]

7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

And that's fine. And some of your last point is probably true, but I don't really care about that. I care about the fact that our politicians, much like yourself and Incredulity, think that "join the military!" and "just drag your whole family to Flint!" are adequate answers for the fact that decades of profiteering have eaten the working classes to the point where all that's left is some cartilage clinging onto the bones, and the fact that it's almost impossible to carve out a middle class lifestyle unless you're highly educated, specialized, or already well off. 

"Move to Detroit there's plenty of jobs!" and "join the military!". Ok boomer.

OK, so that the rest of us understand you better what do you consider highly educated and what do you consider to be middle class(as in earnings for a family of 4)? 

[Helobious 9481]

22 hours ago, Celery Man said:

If there are plenty of good paying jobs for people of below average intelligence (which is half the population) 

I take it you struggle with math.

[Rougarou 594]

Catchy Headline which reminded me of this thread because manufacturing on the line is the epitome of the "working class" jobs:

Manufacturers Increase Perks to Get New Hires to Move

Caterpillar, Raytheon among employers offering more relocation and other benefits to lure far-flung new hires

https://www.wsj.com/articles/manufacturers-increase-perks-to-get-new-hires-to-move-11578825002

 

As the competition for skilled workers in the U.S. heats up and the unemployment rate nears a 50-year low, manufacturers are ramping up efforts to entice workers to their factories. Some, including Caterpillar, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, are offering relocation costs, higher wages and bonuses to help fill half a million U.S. factory jobs, reports The Wall Street Journal. The perks may help offset some of the challenges the U.S. factory sector faces — it contracted for the fifth consecutive month in December, according to the Institute for Supply Management.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Rougarou

[Brisketexan 104610]

 

 

You're also assuming that if only we taxed Bezos 90% of all his money, and then spent that money into jobs program or something like that Cletus' life is magically going to be better. At some point we have to realize that Cletus cannot be helped. Cletus(a lot by your own admission) is going to be Cletus no matter what. We offer him help with food stamps and WIC or whatever other welfare Cletus can get himself on but that's about it. He isn't a victim of the system but bad to terrible parenting. 

There have always been Cletuses in Ada, Houston, Baltimore and there always will be. Absolutely no sense in throwing good money after bad. 

No,  he wants transfer payments equal to a middle class lifestyle.  Plus a little more for those that its really not “fair” to expect much of.

Straw man AND false dichotomy logical fallacies? WELL DONE!

 

Excellent job attributing to me a position that I took [checks Surly]...nowhere.

 

Instead, how about we focus on what I expressly said is the foundational issue: education. From elementary on up. It has proven over and over to be great bang for our buck. A committed system, paying educators a good wage, so that they don’t just teach the basics, but we have a system that fosters creative, critical thinking, and some picture of the real world outside of Ada. And then, affordable basic college - like it was when we went, when you could pay your tuition with a 20 hr a week job, which would help lift people further out of poverty.

 

It isn’t commie giveaways. Just fucking educate people. The dividends are huge.

[Ghost of LL 15492]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Instead, how about we focus on what I expressly said is the foundational issue: education. From elementary on up. It has proven over and over to be great bang for our buck. A committed system, paying educators a good wage, so that they don’t just teach the basics, but we have a system that fosters creative, critical thinking, and some picture of the real world outside of Ada. And then, affordable basic college - like it was when we went, when you could pay your tuition with a 20 hr a week job, which would help lift people further out of poverty.

 

It isn’t commie giveaways. Just fucking educate people. The dividends are huge.

I would agree with all of this.  Our education system is abysmal, and we're reaping the bitter harvest of its awfulness.

[atomheartbevo 89430]

24 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

This is where the problem lies. The fact that the military is one of the few dignified livings that a blue collar type can make is symptomatic of the erosion of both our middle and working classes. 

It's such an odd experience with an extremely unique set of circumstances.  Some states even toss in benefits for National Guard members - Louisiana has a tuition exemption for current National Guard members: https://veterans.louisiana.edu/content/benefit-types/louisiana-national-guard-exemption

 

[Rougarou 594]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I would agree with all of this.  Our education system is abysmal, and we're reaping the bitter harvest of its awfulness.

Which is why if you have the means, you put your kids in private schools or best-in-breed public ISD's. Which exacerbates the problem

[Incredulity 11564]

The educational system isn’t broken for a lack of spending.

 

It’s broken because it’s a bureaucratic catastrophe.  Exactly like the government jobs MIA described above.  Every teacher I know personally (nearly all great, kind, smart people) are so fucking beaten by teaching to tests, dragging along dysfunctional students they will tell you its pretty much about running out the clock.

[BradInATX 9208]

39 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

But working in law, I see plenty of people with associates and bachelors degrees who do just fine.  And as I look over in other fields with which I work, I see lots of other people who don't have advanced degrees but who are doing reasonably well.

Yeah I'm not going to fight an anecdotal, "I used to walk a mile in the snow to school" fight with you. There's almost unlimited data showing how it's nearly impossible to own a home and save for retirement on a median salary for non-specialized, non-educated workers. There's almost unlimited data showing that was not the case 50, 30, even 20 years ago. There's also almost unlimited data showing that salaries are not keeping up with cost of living, home prices, etc. 

You anecdotes, while quaint, are largely worthless. Particularly in the face of massive amounts of data showing that the middle class is disintegrating before our very eyes. A couple of paralegals that you know doesn't change that.

[Rougarou 594]

Brad is bringing the fight to some of y'all on this thread who aren't used to being challenged like this, though. It's been for an interesting discussion tbh. 🍿

[TwiceHorn 31273]

There are a shit-ton of jobs in the military that don't involve being put in harm's way, much, anyway.

But, regardless of the fairness of it or whatever, we have to realize that the military currently IS the WPA/CCC of the last 30 years or so.  It's a massive jobs program.

You can cut defense spending in terms of hardware, but if you cut the actual military itself, there will be a labor reckoning of a most serious type.

And, although it has some drawbacks, the nature of military service is that it can force some Cletuses into good orderly discipline and give them job training that they might not get from a more conventional jobs program.

[Ghost of LL 15492]

11 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Yeah I'm not going to fight an anecdotal, "I used to walk a mile in the snow to school" fight with you. There's almost unlimited data showing how it's nearly impossible to own a home and save for retirement on a median salary for non-specialized, non-educated workers. There's almost unlimited data showing that was not the case 50, 30, even 20 years ago. There's also almost unlimited data showing that salaries are not keeping up with cost of living, home prices, etc. 

You anecdotes, while quaint, are largely worthless. Particularly in the face of massive amounts of data showing that the middle class is disintegrating before our very eyes. A couple of paralegals that you know doesn't change that.

To some degree, you beg the question about what constitutes a non-specialized, non-educated worker.  In the previous post, you wrote of not being "highly educated."  Now you're writing of "non-educated."

There's a difference between the two.

I will agree that for the non-educated--i.e., someone without a high school degree--there are minimal opportunities.  And I would agree further that for such people it is impossible to own a home and save for retirement.*

But surely you will agree that for the moderately educated--i.e., someone with an associates degree or a bachelors degree--attaining that level of affluence is not particularly hard if (1) you're white and (2) you live in an urban area.

It is in our interest as a society to lift everyone up at least into the moderately educated bracket.  Because people who do not have that level of educational attainment simply don't offer anything that is highly valued in the modern economy.  That's not a function of anybody's greed or profiteering; that's a function of technology and increased worker productivity.

 

 

 

* Query whether it is necessarily a societal good for everyone to own his/her own home.  Query further whether it is in society's interest to disincentivize education by making it reasonably easy to own a home and save for retirement without even a minimal education, as has been somewhat standard in the post-War economy, given the changes in technology and the global economy.

 

[Royalfan5 2348]

My fuck up cousins, that joined the Marines promptly became fuck up Marines, were invited to return to civilian life where they continued to be fuck ups. They love their guns and Trump though, just not showing up to work, or if they do keeping their mouth shut.

[BradInATX 9208]

22 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

To some degree, you beg the question about what constitutes a non-specialized, non-educated worker.  In the previous post, you wrote of not being "highly educated."  Now you're writing of "non-educated."

There's a difference between the two.

 

Sure - we've sort of been in a gray area, and clarifying it is probably necessary.

 

Quote

I will agree that for the non-educated--i.e., someone without a high school degree--there are minimal opportunities.  And I would agree further that for such people it is impossible to own a home and save for retirement.*

This is really for anyone without a college degree (or an Associate's). That's a large swath of our country that you're basically saying "you're never going to own your own castle" and "you're never going to be able to stop working and enjoy the twilight of your life". 

 

Quote

But surely you will agree that for the moderately educated--i.e., someone with an associates degree or a bachelors degree--attaining that level of affluence is not particularly hard if (1) you're white and (2) you live in an urban area.

Let's just walk this out a little bit. Let's go with one of the jobs that a lot of people hold up as an opportunity for the type of people we're talking about - registered nurses. And let's use the high end of the pay scale for RNs in Austin which is $70k, or about $4300 take-home after taxes.

You can't find a home in the greater Austin area for less than what, $200k? So your mortgage is going to run you $2,000/month. These numbers could be off now, our first house was a $225k FHA loan and our mortage was $1900 - so you can correct me here if I'm off base here. So our nurse has about $2,300 left.

$400 for groceries
$300 for the lowest-end internet, power, water, sewer
$100 for a cell phone which is basically a necessity at this point
$100 for gas
Let's call it $50 per month for car repair (this seems low but whatever)
$200/month for home repair
$200 car note (this is a super low end basic commuter car, Hyundai type)
$100 car insurance

Now this person has $850 left. 

Take out another $500 for the employee contribution towards health insurance (this is really generous too). 

Now we have $350/month left for medical bills, cable, holidays/gifts, travel, clothes and household goods, furniture, tools/appliances/utensils, personal upkeep (haircuts etc.), HOA fees, and just generally everything that's required to live.

And of course someone living on a razor's edge like this is one catastrophe from financial ruin where they have to service debt that they acquired to survive the catastrophe, which makes it even more untenable.

This person can't afford to own a house. Let alone put anything into retirement. You have a skewed view of what someone on a $70k salary in a city can actually get someone. 

 

Quote

It is in our interest as a society to lift everyone up at least into the moderately educated bracket.  Because people who do not have that level of educational attainment simply don't offer anything that is highly valued in the modern economy.  That's not a function of anybody's greed or profiteering; that's a function of technology and increased worker productivity.

Educating everyone isn't going to solve the problem. As you said, it's a supply and demand issue. 

Quote

* Query whether it is necessarily a societal good for everyone to own his/her own home.

Do you own your home?

Quote

Query further whether it is in society's interest to disincentivize education by making it reasonably easy to own a home and save for retirement without even a minimal education, as has been somewhat standard in the post-War economy, given the changes in technology and the global economy.

LOL wants to dis-incentivize education. And besides, that runs counter to "well we need plumbers and electricians too", which I guarantee is something you say with some regularity.

Edited January 13, 2020 by BradInATX

[Incredulity 11564]

15 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Sure - we've sort of been in a gray area, and clarifying it is probably necessary.

 

This is really for anyone without a college degree (or an Associate's). That's a large swath of our country that you're basically saying "you're never going to own your own castle" and "you're never going to be able to stop working and enjoy the twilight of your life". 

 

Let's just walk this out a little bit. Let's go with one of the jobs that a lot of people hold up as an opportunity for the type of people we're talking about - registered nurses. And let's use the high end of the pay scale for RNs in Austin which is $70k, or about $4300 take-home after taxes.

You can't find a home in the greater Austin area for less than what, $200k? So your mortgage is going to run you $2,000/month. These numbers could be off now, our first house was a $225k FHA loan and our mortage was $1900 - so you can correct me here if I'm off base here. So our nurse has about $2,300 left.

$400 for groceries
$300 for the lowest-end internet, power, water, sewer
$100 for a cell phone which is basically a necessity at this point
$100 for gas
Let's call it $50 per month for car repair (this seems low but whatever)
$200/month for home repair
$200 car note (this is a super low end basic commuter car, Hyundai type)
$100 car insurance

Now this person has $850 left. 

Take out another $500 for the employee contribution towards health insurance (this is really generous too). 

Now we have $350/month left for medical bills, cable, holidays/gifts, travel, clothes and household goods, furniture, tools/appliances/utensils, personal upkeep (haircuts etc.), HOA fees, and just generally everything that's required to live.

And of course someone living on a razor's edge like this is one catastrophe from financial ruin where they have to service debt that they acquired to survive the catastrophe, which makes it even more untenable.

This person can't afford to own a house. Let alone put anything into retirement. You have a skewed view of what someone on a $70k salary in a city can actually get someone. 

 

Educating everyone isn't going to solve the problem. As you said, it's a supply and demand issue. 

Do you own your home?

LOL wants to dis-incentivize education. And besides, that runs counter to "well we need plumbers and electricians too", which I guarantee is something you say with some regularity.

You’re off by nearly  2X on your mortgage payment, even including something for property tax.

[TwiceHorn 31273]

13 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Sure - we've sort of been in a gray area, and clarifying it is probably necessary.

 

This is really for anyone without a college degree (or an Associate's). That's a large swath of our country that you're basically saying "you're never going to own your own castle" and "you're never going to be able to stop working and enjoy the twilight of your life". 

 

Let's just walk this out a little bit. Let's go with one of the jobs that a lot of people hold up as an opportunity for the type of people we're talking about - registered nurses. And let's use the high end of the pay scale for RNs in Austin which is $70k, or about $4300 take-home after taxes.

You can't find a home in the greater Austin area for less than what, $200k? So your mortgage is going to run you $2,000/month. These numbers could be off now, our first house was a $225k FHA loan and our mortage was $1900 - so you can correct me here if I'm off base here. So our nurse has about $2,300 left.

$400 for groceries
$300 for the lowest-end internet, power, water, sewer
$100 for a cell phone which is basically a necessity at this point
$100 for gas
Let's call it $50 per month for car repair (this seems low but whatever)
$200/month for home repair
$200 car note (this is a super low end basic commuter car, Hyundai type)
$100 car insurance

Now this person has $850 left. 

Take out another $500 for the employee contribution towards health insurance (this is really generous too). 

Now we have $350/month left for medical bills, cable, holidays/gifts, travel, clothes and household goods, furniture, tools/appliances/utensils, personal upkeep (haircuts etc.), HOA fees, and just generally everything that's required to live.

And of course someone living on a razor's edge like this is one catastrophe from financial ruin where they have to service debt that they acquired to survive the catastrophe, which makes it even more untenable.

This person can't afford to own a house. Let alone put anything into retirement. You have a skewed view of what someone on a $70k salary in a city can actually get someone. 

 

Educating everyone isn't going to solve the problem. As you said, it's a supply and demand issue. 

Do you own your home?

LOL wants to dis-incentivize education. And besides, that runs counter to "well we need plumbers and electricians too", which I guarantee is something you say with some regularity.

Questioning whether everyone should own their own home is highly valid.  That's been our policy for a long time and it may have been misguided.

The one benefit it may have is enforced savings through the mechanism of equity.  But there are a lot of situations where the equity is illusory.

And, while "disincentivizing education" seems strange, it might be better than the model in most of the rest of the world where you basically have to earn your "right" to continue your education.

[TwiceHorn 31273]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

You’re off by nearly  2X on your mortgage payment, even including something for property tax.

And 70k is the average RN salary in Texas.

I know at one time not long ago, that was a starting salary in most bigger cities, and low for a specialized RN.

[BradInATX 9208]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

And 70k is the average RN salary in Texas.

I know at one time not long ago, that was a starting salary in most bigger cities, and low for a specialized RN.

70k is closer to the high end. Some really high performers might get closer to 80k, but that's rare. The only real way to break that $80k ceiling is to charge nurse, move to management, or do travel nursing. Even at $80k - it doesn't make the math of owning a home come close to working.

Edited January 14, 2020 by BradInATX

[TwiceHorn 31273]

Did the influx of foreign trained RNs push salaries down again?

[BradInATX 9208]

13 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

You’re off by nearly  2X on your mortgage payment, even including something for property tax.

No I'm not. 

Plus another $80 or so for PMI.

 

Does another $450/month materially change anything? With my math above, this person in the real world with real expenses is a thousand dollars a month underwater BEFORE they even save for retirement.

Are we going to address the overarching point that the notion that you can just go get a 2 year degree and live the American Dream is patently false, or are we going to play stupid games?

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by BradInATX

[BradInATX 9208]

15 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Questioning whether everyone should own their own home is highly valid. 

This is something that only people who own houses say. It's yet another "the world needs ditch diggers too" ok boomerism.

Edited January 14, 2020 by BradInATX

[hornhorn 100]

39 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Straw man AND false dichotomy logical fallacies? WELL DONE!

Excellent job attributing to me a position that I took [checks Surly]...nowhere.

Instead, how about we focus on what I expressly said is the foundational issue: education. From elementary on up. It has proven over and over to be great bang for our buck.

 

We already do spend a lot on education. The problem is when these kids go back home. What's going to fix the parenting problem? 

 

26 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Sure - we've sort of been in a gray area, and clarifying it is probably necessary.

 

This is really for anyone without a college degree (or an Associate's). That's a large swath of our country that you're basically saying "you're never going to own your own castle" and "you're never going to be able to stop working and enjoy the twilight of your life". 

 

Let's just walk this out a little bit. Let's go with one of the jobs that a lot of people hold up as an opportunity for the type of people we're talking about - registered nurses. And let's use the high end of the pay scale for RNs in Austin which is $70k, or about $4300 take-home after taxes.

You can't find a home in the greater Austin area for less than what, $200k? So your mortgage is going to run you $2,000/month. These numbers could be off now, our first house was a $225k FHA loan and our mortage was $1900 - so you can correct me here if I'm off base here. So our nurse has about $2,300 left.

$400 for groceries
$300 for the lowest-end internet, power, water, sewer
$100 for a cell phone which is basically a necessity at this point
$100 for gas
Let's call it $50 per month for car repair (this seems low but whatever)
$200/month for home repair
$200 car note (this is a super low end basic commuter car, Hyundai type)
$100 car insurance

Now this person has $850 left. 

Take out another $500 for the employee contribution towards health insurance (this is really generous too). 

Now we have $350/month left for medical bills, cable, holidays/gifts, travel, clothes and household goods, furniture, tools/appliances/utensils, personal upkeep (haircuts etc.), HOA fees, and just generally everything that's required to live.

And of course someone living on a razor's edge like this is one catastrophe from financial ruin where they have to service debt that they acquired to survive the catastrophe, which makes it even more untenable.

This person can't afford to own a house. Let alone put anything into retirement. You have a skewed view of what someone on a $70k salary in a city can actually get someone. 

 

Educating everyone isn't going to solve the problem. As you said, it's a supply and demand issue. 

Do you own your home?

LOL wants to dis-incentivize education. And besides, that runs counter to "well we need plumbers and electricians too", which I guarantee is something you say with some regularity.

Your calculations are off. If the RN is a married person with 2 kids, only earner he/she takes home $5,300 a month. A full thousand dollars more than you claim. 

If this is a single RN, then get out of that 2000 sqft house and rent a one bedroom apartment for $1,000/month because that's what you can afford and you'll free up a full thousand dollars in that way. And you don't have to rent forever, just for a few years until you save up a decent chunk for downpayment. Yeah, you'll have to sacrifice and save. 

You'll also free up another $200/month in "repairs" because you dont' own a house to repair. 

Those two alone gives you $1200/month or $14,400 /year in disposable income if single.

$12,000/year of disposable income if married with kids  over and above your budget. 

So not teetering on the edge of financial ruin. And if you are teetering that close because you cannot budget, get your spouse to dust up the resume and have them be part of the workforce that is at 3.5% unemployment rate. At least during school hours so you dont have to pay for daycare. 

[Sbbruin 21734]

3 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

This is something that only people who own houses say. It's yet another "the world needs ditch diggers too" ok boomerism.

No, it isn't.  Owning a house is not an inalienable right.  I get that there is an affordability crisis, but no, not everyone should own a home.

[BradInATX 9208]

6 minutes ago, hornhorn said:

We already do spend a lot on education. The problem is when these kids go back home. What's going to fix the parenting problem? 

 

Your calculations are off. If the RN is a married person with 2 kids, only earner he/she takes home $5,300 a month. A full thousand dollars more than you claim. 

If this is a single RN, then get out of that 2000 sqft house and rent a one bedroom apartment for $1,000/month because that's what you can afford and you'll free up a full thousand dollars in that way. And you don't have to rent forever, just for a few years until you save up a decent chunk for downpayment. Yeah, you'll have to sacrifice and save. 

You'll also free up another $200/month in "repairs" because you dont' own a house to repair. 

Those two alone gives you $1200/month or $14,400 /year in disposable income if single.

$12,000/year of disposable income if married with kids  over and above your budget. 

So not teetering on the edge of financial ruin. And if you are teetering that close because you cannot budget, get your spouse to dust up the resume and have them be part of the workforce that is at 3.5% unemployment rate. At least during school hours so you dont have to pay for daycare. 

You're a fucking idiot. No wonder I have you on ignore:

- The whole point of this discussion we (LL and I) are having was that people like this can't own homes, so "rent a one bedroom apartment for $1,000!" is literally conceding the argument to me. Which of course you would, because you're stupid.

- My numbers were for a single earner with no family. You think that extra $1k/month in tax break for a single mother supporting a husband and two kids would offset the added expense of TWO CHILDREN AND A GROWN MAN? Jesus Christ you are dense.

Thank you for the reminder not to ever show your hidden posts. There's a reason you're one of the only two people on this site I have ignored.

Edited January 14, 2020 by BradInATX

[Incredulity 11564]

15 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

No I'm not. 

Plus another $80 or so for PMI.

 

Does another $450/month materially change anything? With my math above, this person in the real world with real expenses is a thousand dollars a month underwater BEFORE they even save for retirement.

Are we going to address the overarching point that the notion that you can just go get a 2 year degree and live the American Dream is patently false, or are we going to play stupid games?

 

How about you go spend some time with some blue collar people then report back.  You’re absolutely wrong.

Your math was wrong and now you just want to be cunty about it. Now an extra $6k doesn’t help.  

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Incredulity

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

How about you go spend some time with some blue collar people then report back.  

Really good work here brother. Keep the heat coming.

[hornhorn 100]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

You're a fucking idiot. No wonder I have you on ignore:

- The whole point of the thread was that people like this can't own homes, so "rent a one bedroom apartment for $1,000!" is literally conceding the argument to me. Which of course you would, because you're stupid.

- My numbers were for a single earner with no family. You think that extra $1k/month in tax break for a single mother supporting a husband and two kids would offset the added expense of TWO CHILDREN AND A GROWN MAN? Jesus Christ you are dense.

Thank you for the reminder not to ever show your hidden posts. There's a reason you're one of the only two people on this site I have ignored.

You have no concept of money, math or what is considered a right you self entitled dumbass. You post a miscalculated number and then come back and claim if another $500/month is going to really change anything. 

You were so vague with your example that you leave no choice but for us to guess. All we see is your handwringing.

If they cannot afford to live on $70K with 2 kids and a husband(you sexist piece of shit who assumes a RN is a woman),maybe its time for the husband to go get a job. Bootstraps and all that. 

Go ahead and hide me you dumb bitch because I have a lot of shit to say about your dumb ideas and posts. 

 

[hornhorn 100]

5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

How about you go spend some time with some blue collar people then report back.  You’re absolutely wrong.

Your math was wrong and now you just want to be cunty about it. Now an extra $6k doesn’t help.  

 

Be careful, he'll put you on ignore. 

[Incredulity 11564]

2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Really good work here brother. Keep the heat coming.

This is where you type Dunning-Kruger and stomp off to the breakroom foosball game.

[Brisketexan 104610]

Hornhorn, I know that you want to make it all about education funding, because that concept fits so well in your “warrior for my side” left-right politician war. But lower your sword for just a moment, and think bigger.
Yes, adequate funding is important. And you bet, shitty parents can cancel out much of the benefit good schooling can give.
What I’m suggesting is a broader cultural change in how we structure and deliver education. I’m suggesting that it should include components that address and develop critical thinking skills. That it be locally tailored to inform kids about their possible paths, educationally and career-wise. That it have renewed focus on broadening minds and exposing them to possibilities.
The answer to every problem isn’t either “find it more” or “fuck you commies, no more govt money.” The answer can and should be a fundamental shift in how we approach our institutions. That applies to education, the military, healthcare, etc. Step out of the binary trap. It doesn’t hurt, I promise.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20344]

 

[SaucyJack 3487]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Well then, let’s just leave them to rot in Shithole, Oklahoma!

Ok. Cool. Hook'em!

[hornhorn 100]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Hornhorn, I know that you want to make it all about education funding, because that concept fits so well in your “warrior for my side” left-right politician war. But lower your sword for just a moment, and think bigger.
Yes, adequate funding is important. And you bet, shitty parents can cancel out much of the benefit good schooling can give.
What I’m suggesting is a broader cultural change in how we structure and deliver education. I’m suggesting that it should include components that address and develop critical thinking skills. That it be locally tailored to inform kids about their possible paths, educationally and career-wise. That it have renewed focus on broadening minds and exposing them to possibilities.
The answer to every problem isn’t either “find it more” or “fuck you commies, no more govt money.” The answer can and should be a fundamental shift in how we approach our institutions. That applies to education, the military, healthcare, etc. Step out of the binary trap. It doesn’t hurt, I promise.

Brisket, define broader cultural change. 

We are also possibly talking about different kind of kids. The point I'm making is there's nothing that can be done if kid is 15 and cannot read at that age. And the reason he cannot read isn't because teachers were bad, because for every tenth grade class that has kids that cannot read has kids that can. The difference there are parents. There's nothing you can do when the kid is 15 if he cannot read. Nothing. You have to catch them early and develop them early and cannot do it without the help of parents. 

Now the kind of kids you are talking about can be impacted through various means and no one is arguing against that. 

[MissingInAction 24818]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Did the influx of foreign trained RNs push salaries down again?

I worked at a hospital for 3 years and 80% of the nursing staff were H1b contractors who barely spoke english if at all.