So uh..Austin Subway*, Light Rail Expansions and $3.2 - $10.2 Billion

[Steamboat1874 4,048]

A subway system seems like it would cost 15 to 20 times more to build than an elevated system.

[atomheartbevo 89,618]

48 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

We will all be dead before anything is close to completed on this plan.

So you're saying it'll be complete before the I-35 stretch between Austin and Dallas is finished?

[smuggs 9,350]

58 minutes ago, Digdogger said:

That's a lot of sandwich artists

[Orange&White 5,521]

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

We will all be dead before anything is close to completed on this plan.

And self driving cars and buses will likely solve some of the issues before it is even through the environmental studies.

[Biff Tannen 45,660]

3 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

And self driving cars and buses will likely solve some of the issues before it is even through the environmental studies.

Also true.

[Pasken 1,309]

30 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

And self driving cars and buses will likely solve some of the issues before it is even through the environmental studies.

Self driving cars won't solve shit.

[J.R. Juniors Junior Jr. 1,084]

34 minutes ago, Pasken said:

Self driving cars won't solve shit.

They might get rid of the DWI industrial complex, so there's that.

[Hornius Emeritus 12,448]

4 hours ago, Somnio said:

  You know cuz if you support mass transit you're either stupid or corrupt.  Or even worse, poor.

 

What if I'm just drunk and want to get home safely from DKR?

[Hornius Emeritus 12,448]

41 minutes ago, Pasken said:

Self driving cars won't solve shit.

 

Clearly, you have never ridden with my step mother. 

[Texas_Rocks 346]

The city planners will probably knock this out under budget with a little consultation with the California light rail geniuses.

[elfenix 34,221]

18 hours ago, Pasken said:

officials from other US cities

need officials from foreign cities as well.  a lot of the cost problems with transit in the US are related to finding "best practices" from just the US, which, as we all know, isn't exactly great at transit. 

[Poolflood 845]

So couple of fun facts!

The cost of fuel to run cap metro eats up ~ 50% of actual collected fares.

Labor and "professional services" equate to 3 times collected fares.

Cap metro is talking huge increase in ridership yet rider revenue increased by 100k?

[The People’s Elbow 707]

14 hours ago, Steamboat1874 said:

A subway system seems like it would cost 15 to 20 times more to build than an elevated system.

Unless I misread the material, the “subway” is actually only 1.6 miles of underground tracks.

[Steamboat1874 4,048]

7 hours ago, The People’s Elbow said:

Unless I misread the material, the “subway” is actually only 1.6 miles of underground tracks.

That is still a huge undertaking.

How many underground sewer, gas lines and possible utilities will have to be relocated? 

[Guest Lobo]

So we don’t have basements but we’re gonna have two miles of subway that’ll come in under budget?

i want some of the drugs y’all are on so I can sit through the bond proposal for this shit with a smile on my face. 

[Js1 85,258]

Just checking in to say I take Denver mass transit everyday and love it. 

[atomheartbevo 89,618]

44 minutes ago, Lobo said:

So we don’t have basements but we’re gonna have two miles of subway that’ll come in under budget?

i want some of the drugs y’all are on so I can sit through the bond proposal for this shit with a smile on my face. 

I want to know how they could pull it off without fucking up foundations of nearby buildings or taking forever.  I am not a civil engineer or a geologist though.

[BabaYaga 15,286]

43 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I want to know how they could pull it off without fucking up foundations of nearby buildings or taking forever.  I am not a civil engineer or a geologist though.

No clue, but sign me up to drive this little beauty!

[atomheartbevo 89,618]

7 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

No clue, but sign me up to drive this little beauty!

[hayden_horn 11,362]

On 1/15/2020 at 5:08 AM, Somnio said:

Lol.  3 current expressway lanes in each direction, and there will be 6 expressway lanes in each direction when it's complete.  It'll be pretty damn close to the Katy Freeway, but I wasn't attempting to mislead anyone that it was going to be an exact replica.

And if you think the toll lanes will be unused you haven't been paying attention.

Oh, one other thing.  Your taxes aren't being used to build the 4 toll lanes, Chief.  CTRMA is going to issue a half billion dollars or so of bonds to pay for those.  Bonds which the people paying tolls will pay off.  Those same people paying the tolls, which paid for the lanes they're driving on, are no longer clogging up your precious "free lanes".  Everyone wins.  But I know...."Tolls are bad!!!!"

tolls are bad. i cannot even use the toll lane on mopac if i wanted to use it, but even then, ctrma tries to rip off basically every one of their customers. they are the blockbuster video of tolling. but just examine the use case of the goddamn toll lane on mopac. it cuts out anyone in the north central part of the city from using it. it's useless from 2222 to south austin. so even if you take the position that tolls are "good," which they are not, the usability of toll lanes is laughable in this goddamn city.

take another example - what the actual fuck is that toll lane on eastbound 71? that's a fucking joke.

[Somnio 751]

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

tolls are bad. i cannot even use the toll lane on mopac if i wanted to use it, but even then, ctrma tries to rip off basically every one of their customers. they are the blockbuster video of tolling. but just examine the use case of the goddamn toll lane on mopac. it cuts out anyone in the north central part of the city from using it. it's useless from 2222 to south austin. so even if you take the position that tolls are "good," which they are not, the usability of toll lanes is laughable in this goddamn city.

take another example - what the actual fuck is that toll lane on eastbound 71? that's a fucking joke.

Pos rep on the Blockbuster Video reference.

[smuggs 9,350]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

I want to know how they could pull it off without fucking up foundations of nearby buildings or taking forever.  I am not a civil engineer or a geologist though.

What are the chances they hit an undiscovered cavern and the project gets delayed for an undetermined time while a geological survey/assessment takes place. I'd say 88%.

 

[Pasken 1,309]

10 hours ago, The People’s Elbow said:

Unless I misread the material, the “subway” is actually only 1.6 miles of underground tracks.

Yep and 3-4 underground stations. That's fairly common.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Pasken

[Armybrat 40,814]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

I want to know how they could pull it off without fucking up foundations of nearby buildings or taking forever.  I am not a civil engineer or a geologist though.

Well, we saw how that 100 yard MoPac exit tunnel caused nearly a one year delay because..... rock.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Armybrat

[Orange&White 5,521]

The last time this city decided to build a fucking tunnel, it was the biggest boondoggle/fiasco they've ever had. It is less than a mile long and doesn't carry passengers, it took 20 fucking years and it was about $100M over budget and it will never work right because it was designed poorly.

But I'm sure this time it will work out swimmingly.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Orange&White

[Orange&White 5,521]

18 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Well, we saw how that 100 yard MoPac exit tunnel caused nearly a one year delay because..... rock.

How do you expect them to know that the rock would be harder than the expected? How could they possibly plan for that? It's not like they could have taken core samples to tell them that before they even engineered it.

[hayden_horn 11,362]

7 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

How do you expect them to know that the rock would be harder than the expected? How could they possibly plan for that? It's not like they could have taken core samples to tell them that before they even engineered it.

or, you know, talk to anyone who has tried to put in a deck or build a fence or dig any type of hole in this region.

[Guest Lobo]

Just think about this-The city of Austin at both the City Hall level and in the  Engineering  department, presided over several hundred feet of the Waller Creek tunnel as it was constructed without rebar. And nobody knew anything about it for almost a year.  In 2018 and 19, Your elected officials let myriad city departments sit back and watch an underground tunnel for water be constructed without rebar your elected officials let myriad city departments sit back and watch an underground tunnel for water be constructed without rebar  

That didn’t happen in Haiti or Swaziland, and it didn’t happen 100 years ago.  It happened in one of the smartest cities in the country last year on our watch. 
 

I want trains and mass transit in my cty but all of these fuckers need to go before we can have a discussion about it.  
 

Mayor Adler is complicit in more financial crimes than Martha Stewart.  He is going to appeal for his ability to run for a third term based on Petition signatures.  But he’s gonna have to do it from a fucking jail cell.  
 

NoCR, but some of you really need to get your fucking heads out of your asses.  This guy is shaking you down and you fucking buy it because you think he has compassion Because his voice sounds soft and he looks like he cares

You fucking children

[Armybrat 40,814]

But, but...

Abbott!

[ChickenSandwich 9,824]

16 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Just think about this-The city of Austin at both the City Hall level and in the  Engineering  department, presided over several hundred feet of the Waller Creek tunnel as it was constructed without rebar. And nobody knew anything about it for almost a year.  In 2018 and 19, Your elected officials let myriad city departments sit back and watch an underground tunnel for water be constructed without rebar your elected officials let myriad city departments sit back and watch an underground tunnel for water be constructed without rebar  

That didn’t happen in Haiti or Swaziland, and it didn’t happen 100 years ago.  It happened in one of the smartest cities in the country last year on our watch. 
 

I want trains and mass transit in my cty but all of these fuckers need to go before we can have a discussion about it.  
 

Mayor Adler is complicit in more financial crimes than Martha Stewart.  He is going to appeal for his ability to run for a third term based on Petition signatures.  But he’s gonna have to do it from a fucking jail cell.  
 

NoCR, but some of you really need to get your fucking heads out of your asses.  This guy is shaking you down and you fucking buy it because you think he has compassion Because his voice sounds soft and he looks like he cares

You fucking children

[Texas Jeff 1,942]

15 hours ago, Poolflood said:

So couple of fun facts!

The cost of fuel to run cap metro eats up ~ 50% of actual collected fares.

Labor and "professional services" equate to 3 times collected fares.

Cap metro is talking huge increase in ridership yet rider revenue increased by 100k?

Cap Metro gets around 7% of their revenues from passengers, split about 1/3 each from fareboxes, from sales of passes, and payments from UT.  The rest of their revenue comes mostly from sales tax, federal and state grants, freight revenue, and so on.  Their ridership could drop to zero and they'd still have enough money to operate the system almost as is.

No one is elected to the Cap Metro board, they are either people who were elected to other positions or appointed to the board.  Those of you that voted for Delia Garza, Pio Renteria, or Ann Kitchen for Austin city council -- did you consider how they'd do on Cap Metro's board when you elected them?  Are they doing a good job as Cap Metro board members?

In the early 1990's, Cap Metro reduced fares to zero for a while.  Ridership rose 75%, including a lot of "problem riders" that drove away "quality riders".  I actually rode Cap Metro to campus during this time and the Duval bus was pretty much a rolling homeless camp.  Cap Metro stopped the program because transit drivers were having trouble dealing with the "problem riders" and the increased ridership was causing too much wear and tear on the busses.

They'll take and spend whatever money you give them, but they do not have much incentive to design an efficient system.  We have plenty of examples of rail in Dallas and Houston, and our Waller Creek tunnel project here in Austin, to see what might happen.

[Guest Lobo]

^

great points.  But my main contention with Waller Creek is the City of Austin tends to fuck things up that are underground.  Adler also called the proposed dig 'n cap plan for IH-35 expansion too expensive and ill-advised.  But if the Feds (who usually are worshipped by Adler) and TXDoT can't effectively dig underground around our CBD...how the fuck is CTRMA/Cap Metro/CoA gonna do it?  There's no shortage of over-budget, way late projects done by City of Austin.  It's a lazy argument to say the City will fuck up A, because they fucked up B.  But I'm pointing to the fact that we fuck up stuff underground.  It's just a fact that's on Adler and his council's watch.  The bond sales structure is already lined up to suck.  And here's the kicked---Adler sticks around office long enough and then waits his token "24 month cooling off period" before voila---the real estate around the proposed transit stations magically get developed by he and his real estate friends.  And the rest of you fucking morons celebrate only 4 years and 4 billion of overages.

  If you put Adler's voice at just 1.2x like you can on youtube and dvr playback, I promise you he'd lose his next election.  You fucking idiots keep electing him because he sounds contemplative and compassionate.  Just shut up and watch where his career goes and specifically what "tracts" of land he deals with after he leaves office.  You'll be able to spot them rather easily since it'll be on his proposed transit lines.  

[Pasken 1,309]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

^

great points.  But my main contention with Waller Creek is the City of Austin tends to fuck things up that are underground.  Adler also called the proposed dig 'n cap plan for IH-35 expansion too expensive and ill-advised.  But if the Feds (who usually are worshipped by Adler) and TXDoT can't effectively dig underground around our CBD...how the fuck is CTRMA/Cap Metro/CoA gonna do it?  There's no shortage of over-budget, way late projects done by City of Austin.  It's a lazy argument to say the City will fuck up A, because they fucked up B.  But I'm pointing to the fact that we fuck up stuff underground.  It's just a fact that's on Adler and his council's watch.  The bond sales structure is already lined up to suck.  And here's the kicked---Adler sticks around office long enough and then waits his token "24 month cooling off period" before voila---the real estate around the proposed transit stations magically get developed by he and his real estate friends.  And the rest of you fucking morons celebrate only 4 years and 4 billion of overages.

  If you put Adler's voice at just 1.2x like you can on youtube and dvr playback, I promise you he'd lose his next election.  You fucking idiots keep electing him because he sounds contemplative and compassionate.  Just shut up and watch where his career goes and specifically what "tracts" of land he deals with after he leaves office.  You'll be able to spot them rather easily since it'll be on his proposed transit lines.  

How do you put the Waller Creek fuck ups on Adler's watch? It had already been in construction for 4 years before he took office. His council had to deal with the patch work fixes.  Also, the leading candidate routes for the light rail are the main N/S corridor of the city and the path to the airport. 

 

Are you really on a city commission? 

[Guest Lobo]

This happened last year, so that means 4+ years into the job for He and Council on 10-1 model...and they do not insist on new inspection procedures for contractors on that project.  So those dipshits go and build a huge section of the tunnel without rebar.  It wasn't his idea, but in what world does an 8-year project (talking from shovel to completion ) with 5 of those years happening under Adler and his hands-off approach City engineering and contractor regulation...not partially his responsibility?  In your opinion, with whom does the buck stop with city projects?  The Mayor or Roscoe, the one-armed midget?  The budget for that project was a shitshow before they all took office, and has gotten markedly worse under this new council's watch.  But yeah, keep blaming Ellen Troxclair.  

Honest question-what was your point with regard to the routes proposed for light rail?  

[CooterBrown 18,001]

Unless I misread the material, the “subway” is actually only 1.6 miles of underground tracks.

Subways are way way deeper. Some are South Austin’s mom’s butt depth. London’s is around 500 feet underground.

[Pasken 1,309]

47 minutes ago, Lobo said:

with 5 of those years happening under Adler and his hands-off approach City engineering and contractor regulation...not partially his responsibility? 

You have said you are on a city commission before so clearly you understand how the Austin government works. The "mayor" is not like what mayors are like on TV or in cities like Houston, New York or most major cities. The Austin mayor is just a council member and has no special powers beyond his 1 of 11 vote. There is a separation between the mayor and city staff and he can't do anything without majority support of council.  I would ultimately put the failures of the tunnel at the hands of the former city manager mark Ott and it didn't help that that position was vacant in Austin for more than a year. 

 

 

The reason I brought up the route is that you suggested Adler pushed for a route because of his real estate interests which is silly considering they went with the most obvious and popular routes for mass transit. It's not like they are sending light rail down Oltrof or manor rd.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Pasken

[Armybrat 40,814]

Well, Adler should have those “experiencing homelessness” camp in the WallerCreek tunnel.

Gets them put of the public eye and gives them shelter from the harsh Summer & winter climate..

[Guest Lobo]

54 minutes ago, Pasken said:

The reason I brought up the route is that you suggested Adler pushed for a route because of his real estate interests which is silly considering they went with the most obvious and popular routes for mass transit. It's not like they are sending light rail down Oltrof or manor rd.

Our concern, dude, is not with where Adler real estate interests and proposed rail routes current co-exist.  What worries me is how much his previous clients own along those corridors and how soon after office, he'll conveniently be legal counsel to those transactions.  And then get equity stakes shortly thereafter.  I understand where planners put trains, thank you for explaining that to me.  What will become painfully obvious when this is approved is where the Mayor's business engagement results.  He is beyond corrupt and he does carry more weight than just one council vote, if you can believe that.  

[atomheartbevo 89,618]

5 hours ago, smuggs said:

What are the chances they hit an undiscovered cavern and the project gets delayed for an undetermined time while a geological survey/assessment takes place. I'd say 88%.
 

If they somehow hit an undiscovered cavern downtown, there’s going to be a lot of people shitting their pants.  And not just on the sidewalk.   

[ABSR 5,308]

6 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

No clue, but sign me up to drive this little beauty!

What does South Austin's mom's dildo have to do with this?

[bolverk 29,644]

9 hours ago, Js1 said:

Just checking in to say I take Denver mass transit everyday and love it. 

I ride CapMetro almost every day and love it too. As a passenger who regularly takes the 803 up and down South Lamar to get to my office downtown, it's cheap, convenient, and reliable. I'm guessing those who hate it so much rarely/never actually use it.

They've improved substantially in the last ten years, and I highly encourage anyone who can access a park & ride for the 801 or 803 to do the same. We're all in this together and the roads are only going to get more congested. Every little bit helps.

When I moved here in 1996, the Austin metro area hit 1 million. Today, 24 years later, we're sitting at ~2.3 million (bigger than the NFL towns of Kansas City, Indianapolis, and Cincinnati). By 2040, in 20 short years, we're projected to top FOUR MILLION. There's no possible way for us to build enough roads to handle almost 2 million more people in that time frame. We must embrace mass transit with a quickness.

Fortunately, the ridership increase of 100,000 in one year is double the population gain of 50,000 in that time for the entire 5-county region. We should keep that up.

Now, do I trust them to build a tunnel downtown for a subway in a timely and financially efficient manner? Not on your fucking life.

Edited January 17, 2020 by bolverk

[The People’s Elbow 707]

5 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

 

Subways are way way deeper. Some are South Austin’s mom’s butt depth. London’s is around 500 feet underground.

 

My point was less about depth like the London Tube or South Austin’s mom’s cervix, and more about length and percentage of the line(s) actually underground. 

[TKthunder2 4,985]

On 1/15/2020 at 5:08 AM, Somnio said:

Lol.  3 current expressway lanes in each direction, and there will be 6 expressway lanes in each direction when it's complete.  It'll be pretty damn close to the Katy Freeway, but I wasn't attempting to mislead anyone that it was going to be an exact replica.

And if you think the toll lanes will be unused you haven't been paying attention.

Oh, one other thing.  Your taxes aren't being used to build the 4 toll lanes, Chief.  CTRMA is going to issue a half billion dollars or so of bonds to pay for those.  Bonds which the people paying tolls will pay off.  Those same people paying the tolls, which paid for the lanes they're driving on, are no longer clogging up your precious "free lanes".  Everyone wins.  But I know...."Tolls are bad!!!!"

Again.

3 lanes each direction to 6?  You are literally talking about adding two 9 mile toll lanes and 3 miles of a single free lane because the fucking highway is already 4 lanes for most of 183 North but you’re spinning it as they are building a 4th lanes for the entire 9 miles stretch when really it’s only for 3 miles and they are taking up all the additional possible expansion for tolls and not offering anything else that Katy got, other than the fucking tolls which again were only agreed to because they were getting 6 free lanes for allowing 4 tolled lanes.  Austin is giving 4 tolled lanes for the simple elimination of a 3 mile bottleneck.

i understand people will take the tolls in traffic, the issue is that this permanently takes up 4 lanes on both sides of the road when traffic is only following one way.  183 North is not Mopac, it doesn’t have a train in the middle of it and traffic doesn’t clog both sides of the road during rush hour, in the mornings there is traffic going South and in the afternoon it goes North.  These toll lanes are completely unnecessary 21 hours of the day because very few people will use the Northbound toll in the morning or the Southbound in the evening.  Since there is no train, 183 North could simply have 2 permanent toll lanes in the middle of the highway (+2 additional free or HOV lanes) and simply manage their availability (with a road zipper https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_transfer_machine) to people going South in the morning and North in the evening.  That would be in the best interest of everybody except the toll companies because it’s more expensive to have managed lanes, and thus would drive down profits.

But sure, this is obviously the best plan.

[BradInATX 9,208]

I'm not voting yes on any of this until they start showing some love to south Austin. Screw north and east Austin and their hundreds of thousands of transplants from Cali and Ohio. Suck on my wrinkly Texan balls.

[Texas Jeff 1,942]

17 hours ago, bolverk said:

Fortunately, the ridership increase of 100,000 in one year is double the population gain of 50,000 in that time for the entire 5-county region. We should keep that up.

Is the ridership increase number of daily customers or number of annual trips?  Or something else?

As a frequent Cap Metro rider, would you rather see costs stay about the same and maybe get more frequent bus service (like 5 minutes between busses) or pay possibly a much higher fare and ride a train rather than a bus?  Today I think it costs Cap Metro about $6 in subsidies to put a person on a bus and $25 to put the same person on rail.

[bolverk 29,644]

25 minutes ago, Texas Jeff said:

Is the ridership increase number of daily customers or number of annual trips?  Or something else?

As a frequent Cap Metro rider, would you rather see costs stay about the same and maybe get more frequent bus service (like 5 minutes between busses) or pay possibly a much higher fare and ride a train rather than a bus?  Today I think it costs Cap Metro about $6 in subsidies to put a person on a bus and $25 to put the same person on rail.

I dunno - I didn't fact check the posters who made the claim on ridership numbers increasing by 5% or 100,000 in one year. My only remark on that was to say that would double the Austin metro area's growth rate.

As for the frequency question, I pay $41/mo to hop aboard a bus that leaves the station under the freeway next to Central Market South every 10 minutes.

That's more or less $2 a day round trip to not have to deal with traffic along South Lamar and through downtown, so that I can either fuck around on my phone reading Surly, ogle the coeds, or just shut my eyes and listen to KUT on my phone.

I consider that as money well spent to not raise my blood pressure, waste gas, or put stress on my car going bumper-to'bumper and stop-and-go for 30 minutes. Compared to driving myself, it averages about 10 minutes longer per trip door-to-door though.

Would I pay more? Yeah, probably so. Double the cost? Maybe not, but maybe.

ETA: As an Austin resident, I mostly shop in Austin, which means my sales tax dollars are also going toward CapMetro. So, either way, I'm paying for the service. Why not use it?

Edited January 17, 2020 by bolverk

[atomheartbevo 89,618]

We are about to get electric buses.

https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/capmetro-set-to-roll-out-new-electric-buses-in-austin/

Quote

The average cost of a battery-powered electric bus is $800,000, which is $300,000 more than a diesel vehicle. In order to support a fleet of these buses, CapMetro had to update its infrastructure changing out diesel fuel tanks at bus facilities with charging stations.

Officials say this move will help save money and reduce the agency’s carbon footprint.

12 of them by the end of the year.   School kids are doing the artwork/designs, so at least we'll some more colorful and interesting.

[Armybrat 40,814]

Reading today’s Chronicle.... they are jizzing themselves at the potential $200 Million cut for “art” projects if the $10 Billion project is approved. For the starving artists of course.

And they mention the $40,000-$250,000 art projects already in the works as a part of the recent $720 Million mobility bond issue.

Sure hope the city taxpayers get their money’s worth. 

[Druggist 303]

On 1/16/2020 at 11:58 PM, TKthunder2 said:

traffic doesn’t clog both sides of the road during rush hour, in the mornings there is traffic going South and in the afternoon it goes North. 

Do you drive 183?  I have used it for my commute for about 4 years now (Anderson Square to Ben White).  While driving south in the mornings and north in the evenings as you describe, I have seen clogged up traffic in the other direction during this whole time period.    I am sure traffic is heavier in the direction I am traveling, but to claim it doesn’t clog is not true.

[Pasken 1,309]

On 1/17/2020 at 6:53 AM, BradInATX said:

I'm not voting yes on any of this until they start showing some love to south Austin. Screw north and east Austin and their hundreds of thousands of transplants from Cali and Ohio. Suck on my wrinkly Texan balls.

The plan has light rail to Slaughter with the 1st phase going down to Stassney.