So uh..Austin Subway*, Light Rail Expansions and $3.2 - $10.2 Billion

[TKthunder2 4959]

On 3/10/2020 at 8:02 AM, ChickenSandwich said:

Only raise the property taxes on the downtown central core.

There will never be affordable housing downtown, and a subway line here only serves what business are left paying crazy rent/leasing rates and million dollar high rises. 
 

A subway to the airport from downtown serves the W, not Austin

Kung Flu should tell everyone “density” is no longer our friend. 

I’m not a huge fan of the plan, but the airport connection is huge.  Now anyone that can park along the redline (for free) can take the train/rail to the airport with their luggage for only a few bucks.  This is also an easy first step because now they can expand in small chunks to include other population centers.

[Texas Jeff 1918]

15 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

I’m not a huge fan of the plan, but the airport connection is huge.  Now anyone that can park along the redline (for free) can take the train/rail to the airport with their luggage for only a few bucks.  This is also an easy first step because now they can expand in small chunks to include other population centers.

You can do this today but you have to ride a bus from the red line station downtown to the airport.  The train would be the same thing but maybe a little faster.

How long are you willing to spend on the red line + the new train to get to the airport?  A 45 minute ride?  An hour?  More than an hour?  At some point it makes sense to have someone drop you off at the airport or take ridesharing or just pay for parking at the airport.

[TKthunder2 4959]

3 hours ago, Texas Jeff said:

You can do this today but you have to ride a bus from the red line station downtown to the airport.  The train would be the same thing but maybe a little faster.

How long are you willing to spend on the red line + the new train to get to the airport?  A 45 minute ride?  An hour?  More than an hour?  At some point it makes sense to have someone drop you off at the airport or take ridesharing or just pay for parking at the airport.

In peak times I’d wait, also I have a station really close to my work so I could go in in the morning and walk to the station to get there for a midday or later flight.  When traveling with luggage the bus is just not an appealing option, I’ve done it.

[BabaYaga 15184]

4 hours ago, Texas Jeff said:

You can do this today but you have to ride a bus from the red line station downtown to the airport.  The train would be the same thing but maybe a little faster.

How long are you willing to spend on the red line + the new train to get to the airport?  A 45 minute ride?  An hour?  More than an hour?  At some point it makes sense to have someone drop you off at the airport or take ridesharing or just pay for parking at the airport.

Wold you pay extra in parking to not be exposed to all the mouth breathers on the train/bus and have your own car?  Maybe.  Does it make sense in light of the next steps being getting on a plane full of mouth breathers.  Of course not.  But when did that ever stop people from acting irrationally.  I could see airlines booking every other seat, handing out latex gloves and industrial N95 facial masks to try and stay solvent.  Buses/trains, not so much?

[clapclapclap 8998]

21 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

I’m not a huge fan of the plan, but the airport connection is huge.  Now anyone that can park along the redline (for free) can take the train/rail to the airport with their luggage for only a few bucks.  

Unless they follow the example of many (very stupid) transit agencies that ban overnight parking at stations of lines serving the airport.

[Pasken 1309]

The final plan would link all these locations via Austin's first light rail system: The Airport, East Riverside, Downtown-Republic Square, Downtown-Convention Center, Downtown-Dirty 6th, The Capitol, Rainey St, SoCo, South Congress Transit Center, Southpark Meadows, The Medical School, DKR Stadium, New UT Events and Basketball Arena, St David's, Hancock Center, Highland Complex, UT West Mall, Hyde Park, The Triangle, Crestview Station, North Lamar Transit Center, China Town and Tech Ridge. 

 

I know the trend is to think that everything Cap Metro and COA does sucks but this is a really good plan that has countless hours of research, community outreach and data driven modeling. If you fuckers don't vote for this thing then I will burn this mother down. I will buy up every sunglass hut and use the profits to buy this website or sue for it if I have to and I'll make that mongo of a poster 8badmofo31 chief admin. 

 

There is also information about how public oversight will work in the full presentation which you can find here: 

[Chet Steadman 940]

Put me in the ‘It’s a nice plan -perhaps even the best one presented to date- but it’s too damn expensive club’

Especially now. 

I do need a new pair of Wayfarers though.  

[AUS-97HORN 11558]

on what fucking planet is that whole presentation only going to cost $10B?

I especially love how we know "for sure" the fed govt is gonna puke up almost half of that amount.   If we started building this today, and put a super priority on it, there is no way the entire presentation gets built for less than $15B,  and more likely $20B.

 

Plus its going to take 10 years just to get approval, meaning the cost estimates are going to go up at a highly elevated rate.   Final actual cost 25 years and $50B to do.

[gsoda3 3196]

2 hours ago, Pasken said:

The final plan would link all these locations via Austin's first light rail system: The Airport, East Riverside, Downtown-Republic Square, Downtown-Convention Center, Downtown-Dirty 6th, The Capitol, Rainey St, SoCo, South Congress Transit Center, Southpark Meadows, The Medical School, DKR Stadium, New UT Events and Basketball Arena, St David's, Hancock Center, Highland Complex, UT West Mall, Hyde Park, The Triangle, Crestview Station, North Lamar Transit Center, China Town and Tech Ridge. 

all those are linked by rail?  let's do it.  if we wait on this it's going to be another decade before we can start on another plan.  

[Pasken 1309]

1 minute ago, gsoda3 said:

all those are linked by rail?  let's do it.  if we wait on this it's going to be another decade before we can start on another plan.  

Yes and most of them are direct since the Blue and Gold lines crisscross but at most you have 1 transfer to a different train. So if you are at the N. Lamar transit center you can take the orange train at the station to SoCo or wait 5 minutes for the blue train to take you to the airport. 

[Orange&White 5506]

2 hours ago, Pasken said:

I know the trend is to think that everything Cap Metro and COA does sucks but this is a really good plan that has countless hours of research, community outreach and data driven modeling. If you fuckers don't vote for this thing then I will burn this mother down.

It's actually not a "trend" it is the entire fucking history of the organization. Literally ever since it started and even up to their last Sunset Review a few years ago. Its fucked. That is the "trend".

1 hour ago, Chet Steadman said:

Put me in the ‘It’s a nice plan -perhaps even the best one presented to date- but it’s too damn expensive club’

Especially now. 

 

Exactly.

44 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

on what fucking planet is that whole presentation only going to cost $10B?

I especially love how we know "for sure" the fed govt is gonna puke up almost half of that amount.   If we started building this today, and put a super priority on it, there is no way the entire presentation gets built for less than $15B,  and more likely $20B.

ALL OF THIS.

There isn't a fucking chance in hell that this comes in even within quadruple these estimates. No chance at all. None. Name a single transportation project like this in the entire country that came within even 50% of it's original estimate.

And sure, the same federal government that just threw out $3.2TRILLION fucking dollars for Covid relief is ready to start funding a fucking choo choo train in Austin, Tx. 

 

[Somnio 751]

The plan is legit.  I'll be voting yes.

[gmr548 16316]

And sure, the same federal government that just threw out $3.2TRILLION fucking dollars for Covid relief is ready to start funding a fucking choo choo train in Austin, Tx. 

I don't think this makes the point you want it to.

[Pasken 1309]

Here are some screenshots from a video mostly focusing on the downtown tunnel. It would be air conditioned and have coffee shops and a food court. 

 

Edit: Here is the video:

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Pasken

[Updawg 2245]

Mind the gap

[dcar00 13961]

this thing will be 10x that by the time they are done.  complete pipe dream.  though I could be convinced if they call the orange line the "burnt orange line" just to piss off aggy and see how they avoid using it.

[TKthunder2 4959]

I’m at the point that we just need to do this or else it’ll never get done.

Other than the price and the non committed federal money, I’m mostly annoyed by why the Gold/Blue doesn’t have another stop between the Capitol West and UT/West Mall.  It seem like a large gap that’s  highly traveled.

Seems like an MLK/Lavaca/Bob Bullock History Museum stop would make sense.

[Pasken 1309]

18 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

I’m at the point that we just need to do this or else it’ll never get done.

Other than the price and the non committed federal money, I’m mostly annoyed by why the Gold/Blue doesn’t have another stop between the Capitol West and UT/West Mall.  It seem like a large gap that’s  highly traveled.

Seems like an MLK/Lavaca/Bob Bullock History Museum stop would make sense.

Exact placement for stations comes in the design phase.

[Larry T. Spider 1740]

It’s going to be expensive as a motherfucker. That’s the price we pay for not starting on this and major road projects 30 years ago. The available land will only go down and the price go up if we try to do this after another 2 million people move here. Transportation is the number one critical issue facing Austin over the next 10 years. I hope we get it right, and I include major road improvements in this as well.

I grew up here and hate that my personal version of old Austin is gone. I loved the early 90s when I was a kid. But the reality is that we are a big city now and getting bigger by the day. The current Austin clusterfuck of the worst traffic for a city our size in the nation was created by people trying to hold onto the past. Time to start thinking about what Austin in 2040 will look like. For starters, it will have 4 million people in the area.

[skittlebrau 474]

It’s a really good plan. Glad they decided to go big for once and stop jacking around with other options. Sitting through dozens of hours of discussions about it in Chamber meetings suddenly seems worthwhile.

[clapclapclap 8998]

18 hours ago, Pasken said:

Here are some screenshots from a video mostly focusing on the downtown tunnel. It would be air conditioned and have coffee shops and a food court. 

So riders can stick their hands out the windows and be handed coffee/drinks like at a marathon?

[ABSR 5275]

18 hours ago, Pasken said:

Here are some screenshots from a video mostly focusing on the downtown tunnel. It would be air conditioned and have coffee shops and a food court. 

 

Edit: Here is the video:

 

 

That is some really nice looking and cost effective homeless housing.

[Texas Jeff 1918]

The Statesman is reporting that implementing Project Connect will require about a 25% rise in your City of Austin tax bill.

So, take your property tax bill and add 25% to the City of Austin portion to determine what this might cost you annually in taxes.

[J.R. Juniors Junior Jr. 1084]

4 hours ago, Texas Jeff said:

The Statesman is reporting that implementing Project Connect will require about a 25% rise in your City of Austin tax bill.

So, take your property tax bill and add 25% to the City of Austin portion to determine what this might cost you annually in taxes.

$360/year for the average Austin homeowner from what I have read.  So, $45K/year for surly types.

[Guest Lobo]

I know it's a drop in the bucket, but we literally just finished (like, last week) a ~$4.0mm renovation to Republic Square Park so we can rip it up next year to start the downtown transit tunnel?  

[Wally Pryor 5214]

You expected otherwise?

[Armybrat 40559]

5 hours ago, Texas Jeff said:

The Statesman is reporting that implementing Project Connect will require about a 25% rise in your City of Austin tax bill.

So, take your property tax bill and add 25% to the City of Austin portion to determine what this might cost you annually in taxes.

I recall over the last half century the AAS. Reporting how each bond issue would only raise the average homeowner’s property tax just a few bucks a month.

worked out real well for the poors.

at least this one will enable them to ride from the ‘burbs to their jobs downtown on a subsidized rail.

[skittlebrau 474]

19 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

I recall over the last half century the AAS. Reporting how each bond issue would only raise the average homeowner’s property tax just a few bucks a month.

worked out real well for the poors.

at least this one will enable them to ride from the ‘burbs to their jobs downtown on a subsidized rail.

As opposed to driving in a single occupancy vehicle on a subsidized road.

[Armybrat 40559]

More convenient for those with families though.

I miss the Dillo.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Armybrat

[Somnio 751]

48 minutes ago, skittlebrau said:

As opposed to driving in a single occupancy vehicle on a subsidized road.

Exactly, and no one bats an eye when billions and billions are spent on highways year after year after year.

And as a disclaimer I fully support highway expansion as well.  I just believe we shouldn't put virtually all of our eggs in one basket in perpetuity.  I think it's okay to support alternative forms of transport than the automobile.

I also believe there shouldn't be a double standard for mass transit.  If a billion dollars is spent expanding a highway no one believes all of our transportation problems will evaporate.  If it saves you 5 or 10 minutes on your commute it's considered a smashing success.  There are times it won't be near capacity.  Does that mean it was an enormous waste?

And no one believes a road is going to pay for itself either, at least not without going into massive debt by issuing bonds and then charging tolls.  Even then it takes many decades to pay for itself, if it doesn't default.  Oh yeah, and we all know how much every one loves toll roads.

Transportation is for the common good like education or the fire department.  Maybe you went to private school, and have never needed to call 911.  That's great, but you still pay for those services.

[Pasken 1309]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

I recall over the last half century the AAS. Reporting how each bond issue would only raise the average homeowner’s property tax just a few bucks a month.

worked out real well for the poors.

at least this one will enable them to ride from the ‘burbs to their jobs downtown on a subsidized rail.

It’s the school district taxes that break you.

[Guest Lobo]

fun fact, the taxation entity that uses the highest appraised value of your home (not their taxation rate, but their ability to max out your home value) is not your school district, City of Austin, EMS/Fire, or Central Health.  It's ACC.  By far.  Their drunken buying spree the last decade is kind of getting to be a problem particularly as both their enrollment has declined and their number of online students has grown.  

[Armybrat 40559]

1 hour ago, Pasken said:

It’s the school district taxes that break you.

Not me, mine are “frozen”.

But yes they are the lion’s share of the total for everybody. Too bad AISD won’t reduce their bloated bureaucracy even with sharply declining enrollment. When I applied to work for AISD in 1967, there were only 4 employees in the personnel (HR) department to service the district’s 60,000+ students, faculty, & staff. Taxpayers will never get a break there. 
Then again, the creeping upward of the remainder isn’t chopped liver. It’s like boiling the proverbial frog. Adding $10 billion isn’t doing the small homeowner any favors.

In my opinion, since Austin is the State Capitol, it should be the State’s financial burden to build such a rail/subway system. In fact I’d like to see it doubled in size and built to be a monument to this great state and a source of statewide pride, much like the systems in Paris, Moscow, London, Mexico City, & Tokyo are for those countries. I don’t care if Austin isn’t as dense as others like NYC. The idea is to get around efficiently.... and make it an attractive design instead of industrial ugly like the original I-35.

But if the State were to underwrite the whole project, there should be a committee of independent auditors to make sure there isn’t any chicanery like there was with the Boston Big Dig, the corrupt MoPac fiasco, or the Waller Creek flood tunnel incompetence.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Armybrat

[Larry T. Spider 1740]

I’m not going to derail another thread with this so one post only.

46% of the tax revenue collected for AISD goes to other districts through recapture. As long as that happens, tax payers in Austin are proper fucked. AISD pays for about 1/3 of the recapture total for the entire state.

[DCA_HORN 725]

I voted against the choo choo 20 years ago because this won't get halfway from the airport to 35 or whatever equivalent. In theory it's great but as Harvey said, good luck gentlemen.

[atomheartbevo 89059]

On 6/10/2020 at 12:07 PM, AUS-97HORN said:

on what fucking planet is that whole presentation only going to cost $10B?

I especially love how we know "for sure" the fed govt is gonna puke up almost half of that amount.  

Yeah, there's no way the feds are going to cough up those kinds of bucks for the People's Republic of Travis County.

Not gonna lie though, would ride the fuck out of it with my son - he loves to ride the buses and rail, and it's a cheap thing to do on a Saturday afternoon.

But looking at that food court, and I'm an asshole for saying it, but all I can see are homeless people pushing their carts around and putting a ton of stuff out on the tables for whatever reason.  And it'll be harder to police than the Central Library.

[atomheartbevo 89059]

On 6/10/2020 at 1:02 PM, Orange&White said:

And sure, the same federal government that just threw out $3.2TRILLION fucking dollars for Covid relief is ready to start funding a fucking choo choo train in Austin, Tx. 

They are fighting like hell against giving out any more Covid relief, so things like this will be under extra scrutiny as they try to roll back as much government spending as possible.

Shame we can't have a special tax on everybody who has moved here in the last 20 years, as well as companies (instead of spending money to get companies to come here), to pay for all of this.

[atomheartbevo 89059]

7 hours ago, Lobo said:

I know it's a drop in the bucket, but we literally just finished (like, last week) a ~$4.0mm renovation to Republic Square Park so we can rip it up next year to start the downtown transit tunnel?  

TxDOT is constantly finishing stretches of 35 just so they can be torn up and started over.

[atomheartbevo 89059]

On 6/10/2020 at 9:53 PM, TKthunder2 said:

I’m at the point that we just need to do this or else it’ll never get done.

And that's where I'm at.  Time to repost that NY Times article from 1983.

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/10/08/us/booming-austin-fears-it-will-lose-its-charms.html

BOOMING AUSTIN FEARS IT WILL LOSE ITS CHARMS

By Robert Reinhold

Oct. 8, 1983

This appealing college town set in the lovely Texas hill country is rapidly becoming a major city with a high-technology economy, and many an Austinite is wondering if that will spoil a good thing.

As a growing number of computer, aerospace and other high-technology companies like Motorola, I.B.M. and Lockheed discover Austin's charms, many here are asking whether the city will become ''another Houston.'' That grim catchword symbolizes for Austinites the worst of Texas's unbridled urban development: clogged freeways, sprawl, pollution and garish commercial strips.

Widely regarded as the most ''livable'' of Texas cities, Austin long got along on just two economic legs: the University of Texas and the state government, a mix that made it a politically liberal and socially tolerant pocket in a conservative state. Now it is becoming a formidable industrial center, too.

Robert Lane, president of the InterFirst Bank, the largest here, said the city's ''paranoia'' about growth had led it to neglect roads and services. He believes the city must devise a long- range ''road map'' to see beyond the weekly battles over zoning and development that consume the City Council.

''Austin really has the last good chance to manage its growth to maintain the quality of life we have,'' he said.

Whether Austin can rein in the powerful economic and social forces at work is problematical. For better or worse, there are already signs that it has outgrown its small-town charms. On Congress Street downtown, a half dozen major office buildings are going up, including One American Center, a 32-story complex that has stirred outrage among many because it will block the view of the State Capitol from many neighborhoods. On the outskirts, commercial strips along Highway 183 and Ben White Boulevard are as garish and congested as anywhere.

----

For years the city tried to limit its growth by denying water and sewer services to developers and by refusing to annex surrounding land; the voters repeatedly turned down bond issues. But this approach backfired because developers got water from the Lower Colorado River Authority, meaning development was occurring anyway and Austin was losing control of it.

------

Moreover, he said, he is cognizant of what he affectionately calls the ''granola army,'' environmentalists who ''can beat you without money.''

''We've got a town with a conscience,'' he said. ''We will not have another Houston. We have too many safeguards.''

--------

Others are less hoepful. ''I don't see any way of avoiding the fate that awaits us,'' said Kenneth Manning, a 38-year-old lawyer and environmental leader who used to work for Mr. Bradley. He said the city was unable to take a strong hand in channeling development because ''it is extremely difficult to get the City Council to tell a developer 'no' once in a while.'' All six Council members and the new Mayor ran with contributions from developers in April's elections. The Best of All Worlds

-----------

It is just these things that have brought high-technology businesses seeking refuge from the high costs and congestion in California's high-technology area and wanting an agreeable setting to help recruit staff. Austin's population swelled from 254,000 in 1970 to 345,000 in 1980. The chamber estimates its has since grown to more than 367,000, and some estimates say the metropolitan area will exceed a million by the year 2000. Over the last decade, the number of passengers using the municipal airport has grown from 600,000 to more than 2 million yearly. The growth is accelerating. Since 1979 2.6 million square feet of office space has been built; 2.3 million more is now under construction.

----

In 1979 the City Council adopted a master plan to encourge growth along a north-south axis on the theory that new development would be most efficient where there are aleady utilities and transportation lines. But people prefer to live on the hills to the west, and nothing has been able to stop them.

The Council is devising new, more stringent zoning and building codes, and pressure is mounting for strict new rules to limit density in the ecologically fragile Lake Austin watershed to the west. Many, too, are urging the city to annex aggresively lest nearby towns hem it in, even though annexation means that the city must supply services. Over the next few months voters will be asked to approve more than $1 billion in bonds for water, sewer and electric service.

--------

 

Not the whole article, but you get the picture.

[Armybrat 40559]

12 hours ago, Larry T. Spider said:

I’m not going to derail another thread with this so one post only.

46% of the tax revenue collected for AISD goes to other districts through recapture. As long as that happens, tax payers in Austin are proper fucked. AISD pays for about 1/3 of the recapture total for the entire state.

Austin doesn’t like paying their fair share?

 

[Pasken 1309]

3 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Austin doesn’t like paying their fair share?

 

[Armybrat 40559]

Lulz.

But supposedly the lege knocked this year’s recapture down quite a bit.

[ChickenSandwich 9769]

If The the City wants their show pony, they should cut their budget to find the funds to pay for it. We already have a spending problem. If the cause is worth it, reallocate existing revenues. Start with the art consultant. 
 

But they will pass this, go massively over budget and pass that along to homeowners. Then they will pay a consultant to once again figure out why affordable housing is hard. 

[Deej 76219]

How much of the needed real estate for this project does Steve Adler and his wife already have their grubby little hands on?

[Pasken 1309]

45 minutes ago, Deej said:

How much of the needed real estate for this project does Steve Adler and his wife already have their grubby little hands on?

So Alex Jones is a no. Anyone else?

[Deej 76219]

I don't have a problem with this, I just want full transparency, and anyone in office if this passes shouldn't be able to profit from it. But you be you, Mayor Adler. 

[HRSchenker 2224]

What role does the new property tax law play in all of this? Isn't the rule that if the county budget increases by more than 3.5% they have to get voter approval or does that not matter since it's coming from the city of Austin?

[bolverk 29106]

2 hours ago, Deej said:

How much of the needed real estate for this project does Steve Adler and his wife already have their grubby little hands on?

Serious question from someone who's not particularly a huge fan of Adler: What specifically are you referring to? I don't probably follow local Austin stuff as much as I should and would genuinely appreciate some background information on this accusation. tia

1 hour ago, HRSchenker said:

What role does the new property tax law play in all of this? Isn't the rule that if the county budget increases by more than 3.5% they have to get voter approval or does that not matter since it's coming from the city of Austin?

The limit on annual budget increases also applies to municipalities.

[Pasken 1309]

1 hour ago, HRSchenker said:

What role does the new property tax law play in all of this? Isn't the rule that if the county budget increases by more than 3.5% they have to get voter approval or does that not matter since it's coming from the city of Austin?

They city would need to get voter approval in the November election. 

[ChickenSandwich 9769]

Good. City needs to live within their means like everyone one else. Citizens are not a bottomless piggy bank.