So uh..Austin Subway*, Light Rail Expansions and $3.2 - $10.2 Billion

[Pasken 1309]

26 minutes ago, DanRydell said:

The city doesn't fund or operate AISD.

Yea, I'm in the city limits but in Manor ISD.

Posting this here again since it's a new page:

[ChickenSandwich 9824]

we should focus on getting people to actually use the public transportation we have now, as opposed to spending another billion wishfully thinking "If we build it, they will come".  Complete waste of money.  Now if you want to raise taxes only for 78701,2,3,4,5, go nuts.  They are the only ones who may use this, but probably not.

[dcar00 14144]

On 8/19/2020 at 12:12 PM, DanRydell said:

Unfortunately thanks to people like you there is little correlation between good decisions and popular ones.

It is possible they could stop funding stupid shit, focus on the must haves, reduce the property taxes, not have a income tax and raise the sales/consumption tax.

[Pasken 1309]

34 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

we should focus on getting people to actually use the public transportation we have now, as opposed to spending another billion wishfully thinking "If we build it, they will come".  Complete waste of money.  Now if you want to raise taxes only for 78701,2,3,4,5, go nuts.  They are the only ones who may use this, but probably not.

People want more dependable public transit. We are tired of waiting in the same traffic as a car. It defeats the purpose. better quality transit attracts more riders.

 

 

[ChickenSandwich 9824]

What is unreliable about light rail?  The one that has never reach 50% capacity in a decade?

[Pasken 1309]

Just now, ChickenSandwich said:

What is unreliable about light rail?  The one that has never reach 50% capacity in a decade?

We don't have light rail. If you are referring to the handrail diesel commuter train, it's standing room only at rush hour and it's a commuter line. We're talking about putting light rail (our first light rail line) down the major backbone of the city as well as a growing riverside corridor to the airport.

[Somnio 751]

10 minutes ago, Pasken said:

People want more dependable public transit. We are tired of waiting in the same traffic as a car. It defeats the purpose. better quality transit attracts more riders.

 

 

Thank you for fighting the good fight.  I don't have the energy anymore to try and convince people to support mass transit when they absolutely hate the city of Austin, Capital Metro, and urbanism.  Maybe this will be the year where they no longer can vote in the numbers to prevent our city from investing in the future.

[Texas_Rocks 346]

It is possible they could stop funding stupid shit, focus on the must haves, reduce the property taxes, not have a income tax and raise the sales/consumption tax.

That grift is mostly spoken for, but a light rail opens up a new world of corruption for a shit ton of people, which opens up a lot of other concerted corruption based on relationships made while pushing the rail. A number of people could easily become mega wealthy from rail funds without the rail ever being finished. This has little to do with whether or not Austin needs a poorly planned rail.

[dcar00 14144]

1 minute ago, Texas_Rocks said:

That grift is mostly spoken for, but a light rail opens up a new world of corruption for a shit ton of people, which opens up a lot of other concerted corruption based on relationships made while pushing the rail. A number of people could easily become mega wealthy from rail funds without the rail ever being finished. This has little to do with whether or not Austin needs a poorly planned rail.

agree.

[ChickenSandwich 9824]

12 minutes ago, Pasken said:

We don't have light rail. If you are referring to the handrail diesel commuter train, it's standing room only at rush hour and it's a commuter line. We're talking about putting light rail (our first light rail line) down the major backbone of the city as well as a growing riverside corridor to the airport.

I see it twice a day everyday and have ridden a handful of times. It has NEVER been close to “full” at any point.  Not at 8 am or 5 pm. If it was full, they would simply add more cars. It was a colossal waste of money

[DanRydell 799]

32 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

It is possible they could stop funding stupid shit, focus on the must haves, reduce the property taxes, not have a income tax and raise the sales/consumption tax.

Why trade one regressive tax for another?

[elfenix 34221]

32 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

It is possible they could stop funding stupid shit, focus on the must haves, reduce the property taxes, not have a income tax and raise the sales/consumption tax.

the funny thing about public infrastructure is that it's often more valuable than the private property it supports, which means that property taxes are never going to be enough to pay for it. 

Quote

There are some remarkable things to note right off the top. When we added up the replacement cost of all of the city's infrastructure -- an expense we would anticipate them cumulatively experiencing roughly once a generation -- it came to $32 billion. When we added up the entire tax base of the city, all of the private wealth sustained by that infrastructure, it came to just $16 billion. This is fatal.

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money

[DanRydell 799]

4 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

I see it twice a day everyday and have ridden a handful of times. It has NEVER been close to “full” at any point.  Not at 8 am or 5 pm. If it was full, they would simply add more cars. It was a colossal waste of money

They almost doubled capacity like three years ago.

[ChickenSandwich 9824]

https://www.capmetro.org/ridership-stats/
 

you can research the ride numbers here. Metro rail usage is almost non existent. Would have been way cheaper to buy more busses and use those millions for road improvements  - not bike lanes.  

[dcar00 14144]

2 minutes ago, DanRydell said:

Why trade one regressive tax for another?

because its not based on something I already own.  the bigger problem is the first part of the sentence.

[Somnio 751]

2 minutes ago, elfenix said:

the funny thing about public infrastructure is that it's often more valuable than the private property it supports, which means that property taxes are never going to be enough to pay for it. 

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money

You reap what you sow.  This is but one consequence of sprawling further and further into the countryside in a low density, auto oriented fashion for the last 70 years.

But the anti transit people love their sprawl, and don't mind the multi billion dollar infrastructure extensions into the hinterlands.

[Godzillatron 292]

Prop A is not a bond so there isn't any borrowed money or interest. It's more Pay as you go. The first few years will be spent on design and engineering which will allow the fund to build up money to pay for the actual construction. Then you have the project like the Green Line which aren't even scheduled for work until after light rail opens when the money will be available. The cheaper improvements are scheduled 1st like Red line improvements and the Bus Rapid routes, park and rides etc. 
 
This is a really good plan IF you like mass transit. If you don't then vote against it but anyone who says the plan is not right for X reason is full of shit or lying. The best comparison I have is Seattle's light rail. They also have a tunnel in downtown that helps the system tremendously by avoiding clusters, not taking away lanes for buses, and allowing the trains to be extended in the future which we could not do at street level due to the shorter length of our downtown blocks.

You highlight the Green Line, which is an excellent example of the problem with Prop A. That line serves eastern Travis County. 80%+ of the ridership will be from outside city of Austin. Why are Austin taxpayers paying for these improvements?

[Godzillatron 292]

https://www.capmetro.org/ridership-stats/
 
you can research the ride numbers here. Metro rail usage is almost non existent. Would have been way cheaper to buy more busses and use those millions for road improvements  - not bike lanes.  

That’s what Houston did in the 1990s. They started a BRT system that is actually used by the community. Last year they passed a regional bond to expand their BRT. For about the same total dollars they are building a system that will serve a community 10 times the size of ours because they went with BRT not LRT and aren’t building a tunnel as a vanity project.

[Pasken 1309]

2 minutes ago, Godzillatron said:

You highlight the Green Line, which is an excellent example of the problem with Prop A. That line serves eastern Travis County. 80%+ of the ridership will be from outside city of Austin. Why are Austin taxpayers paying for these improvements?

Every single stop of the green line that is funded by Prop A is in the city of Austin. If Manor and Elgin want it to continue to outside Austin then they can pay for it.

[Godzillatron 292]

I'd like to see what happens with the new train stop at the convention center (when is that being delivered again?)...and also with the expanded shitshow at Republic Square Park?  
It's deeply connected to the homeless issue and is not being addressed.  I've seen some shit at several bus and train stations that would make me think about never taking an expanded line, nor letting my family do so.  I don't mind somebody asking for spare change.  I'm talking about wildly open needle use, squat 'n shits, people fucked up beyond belief on drugs and alcohol, handjobs for cash.  And on top of that, I missed my bus home from South Austin's mom's house. 

My firm looked at some new office space that had the benefit of being walking distance from a major transit center. We passed because we didn’t feel it would be safe for our staff to walk past the tent city and related shitstorm between the transit center and the office.

[Somnio 751]

9 minutes ago, Godzillatron said:

 For about the same total dollars they are building a system that will serve a community 10 times the size of ours because they went with BRT not LRT and aren’t building a tunnel as a vanity project.

Damn, I didn't realize Houston was a city of 10 million people, or a metro of 23 million.

I also didn't realize Houston is considered a leader in mass transit which other cities should attempt to emulate.

Learn something new every day.

 

[Updawg 2266]

Every single stop of the green line that is funded by Prop A is in the city of Austin. If Manor and Elgin want it to continue to outside Austin then they can pay for it.

Or just drive a few minutes to it and hop on

[Pasken 1309]

Just now, Updawg said:

Or just drive a few minutes to it and hop on

Sure, they can drive to a park and ride and pay to ride it and that would be one less car on the road in Austin. Is that so terrible?

[Deej 76748]

I love the part of the ads saying they can get bus routes to underserved parts of town. 

I'm guessing they could do that for a lot less money than this is calling for. 

[destroya 374]

I will be a no on this and every other bond proposition the city proposes because fuck Austin City Council. They are more interested in vanity projects and governing by press release and have not shown themselves capable of running the city.
 

They are the Blake Brokermeyer of local governments.

[BrazilHorn 6586]

Dropbox just announced they are letting all employees work virtually permanently. 
All of your large tech players in downtown (Google, Oracle, FB) are all at least a year away from being back in office. 
I think the post covid landscape is going to be dramatically different for some time. 
Prop A makes no sense right now. Let dust settle. 

[Updawg 2266]

Sure, they can drive to a park and ride and pay to ride it and that would be one less car on the road in Austin. Is that so terrible?

Then do busses.

I was for it but with the covid landscape I’m leaning towards let’s see what happens post covid

I’m sure in two years I’ll be pissed when I’m back commuting on mopac and this failed.

Everything transit related sucks in this town. I used to vote yes every time

[Pasken 1309]

34 minutes ago, Updawg said:

Then do busses.

I was for it but with the covid landscape I’m leaning towards let’s see what happens post covid

I’m sure in two years I’ll be pissed when I’m back commuting on mopac and this failed.

Everything transit related sucks in this town. I used to vote yes every time

That would make sense if there was any possibility that the population of austin would stay stagnant or go down but that is not happening. Even if post covid means 20 percent less traffic which I think is unlikely, we are still talking about doubling the population in the next 20 years. So instead of congestion getting twice as bad it might get almost twice as bad.

[Texas Jeff 1942]

5 hours ago, Pasken said:

Yea, I'm in the city limits but in Manor ISD.

Posting this here again since it's a new page:

Austin ISD spends about 11 cents building and repairing schools for 75,000 students, about 59 cents on everything else, and is forced to give about 41 cents to the State of Texas.  If you are going to show Prop A as a separate bar from the City of Austin then you should make recapture separate from AISD funding.  

Austin ISD also does not get the benefit of a 1% sales tax.  Cap Metro will get $250 million from that tax just next year, even if zero passengers board a bus.

[Guest Lobo]

3 minutes ago, Texas Jeff said:

 

Austin ISD also does not get the benefit of a 1% sales tax.  Cap Metro will get $250 million from that tax just next year, even if zero passengers board a bus.

Yes, but your short-sidedness fails to take into account the fares collected on AISD passengers on busses.  See?!?

[Chet Steadman 940]

51 minutes ago, Pasken said:

That would make sense if there was any possibility that the population of austin would stay stagnant or go down but that is not happening. Even if post covid means 20 percent less traffic which I think is unlikely, we are still talking about doubling the population in the next 20 years. So instead of congestion getting twice as bad it might get almost twice as bad.

A twenty percent reduction in traffic is massive.  That would be the equivalent to the number of cars driving on Mopac in 2002.  You know, when rush-hour congestion meant it took 20 minutes to get from West 6th to the Arboretum.  

And that was without the added benefit of the two additional lanes we have now.   

Edited October 15, 2020 by Chet Steadman

[Updawg 2266]

Recapture is fucking bullshit

[Orange&White 5521]

https://www.statesman.com/opinion/20201013/gerald-daugherty-austinrsquos-prop-would-be-boondoggle?fbclid=IwAR2Y6E3cKCrmAI897xCWOEiYeSCWuysHO_9rWlspsM7KalEDAhWACp5BnO4

 

Quote

Gerald Daugherty: Austin’s Prop A would be a boondoggle

Previous

 

HIDE CAPTION

Travis County Commissioner Gerald Daugherty

 

HIDE CAPTION

Travis County Commissioner Gerald Daugherty says CapMetro should run an efficient and flexible bus system for transit users, not a costly fixed route rail system. [Stephen Spillman for Statesman] 

Stephen Spillman

 

HIDE CAPTION

Travis County Commissioner Gerald Daugherty

 

HIDE CAPTION

Travis County Commissioner Gerald Daugherty says CapMetro should run an efficient and flexible bus system for transit users, not a costly fixed route rail system. [Stephen Spillman for Statesman] 

Stephen Spillman

 

HIDE CAPTION

Travis County Commissioner Gerald Daugherty

Next

 

 

By Gerald Daugherty Special to the View

Posted Oct 13, 2020 at 10:22 AM

   

How many times do I have to point out that spending billions of dollars on the latest proposal for a rail transit system in Austin would be wasted money?

I spoke up in May 2018 and again in November 2019. My words then still apply now. I hope this community is not duped into supporting a transit plan that will needlessly cost billions of dollars. Rail makes no sense in Austin because rail transit won’t make any significant dent in our transportation load. It’s not a realistic, cost-effective way to mitigate congestion, even any future projected congestion.

If Proposition A on this November’s election ballot is approved by Austin voters it would be one of the biggest boondoggles in the city’s history, would greatly increase city property taxes in perpetuity, and would lead to even more property tax increases in the future, since this is just the first phase of the Project Connect plan part of Prop A. The 8.75 cent increase won’t cover operating costs, so they’ll have to come back to taxpayers several times for more money, increasing your property taxes even more. And who really believes that federal money will pay for even a portion of this?

One big thing people must understand is that Prop A is not a bond election like Prop B is. The huge tax increases of Prop A will not go away after a few years, they will go on forever. Another thing to question is why the ads for Prop A push this as a “comprehensive” transit plan, when it’s really a rail plan, because 87% ($6.17 billion) of the costs come from just the three rail lines and the transit tunnel. And if you look closely, the wording of Prop A mentions “fixed rail” only twice in its voluminous paragraph, with the rest being just all kinds of feel-good items.

There are many reasons why Proposition A is a bad idea that voters must resoundingly reject. For starters, it makes no sense to spend $6.17 billion on rail that maybe barely 1% of commuters would use. And most of those wouldn’t be new commuters because it would just switch present bus riders to train riders. CapMetro should run an efficient and flexible bus system for transit users, not a costly fixed route system that wouldn’t be used by over 99% of area commuters. It’s just a repeat of another rail plan that doesn’t make any sense.

Another thing most people probably don’t realize is that CapMetro has taken over $4 billion from taxpayers in its 35-year existence. Despite all that money and all their different plans, its system has continually been used by only about 3% to 4% of commuters. And, since 1990 to 2019, its ridership has stayed relatively flat, while our population has more than doubled. So, even after spending billions of dollars, there’s been no real increase in ridership. History shows that most people aren’t interested in using public transportation.

 

Even before the pandemic and its effect on bus ridership (which has plummeted), there’s another way commuting has changed. It’s called teleworking. Census figures show that 5% of our workers teleworked in 2006, and 8% did so in 2016. Notice how those numbers are greater than public transit users. As for present times, a recent survey of Central Texas workers found that even after COVID is no longer a threat, 25% expect to telework at least four days a week, and 65% expect to telework some of the time. In other words, traffic congestion will be affected much more by work schedules and teleworking, which costs the public nothing. Telework alone will guarantee this much more than public transit ridership.

Another huge point to bring up is that, with all the constant talk by the city about the lack of affordability in Austin, why would they call for this huge tax increase in the middle of the worst economic time we’ve experienced in our lifetime? This would reduce people’s spending power even more, especially since many have lost their jobs, many businesses are barely getting by, commercial real estate is being affected, etc. And businesses along the planned rail corridors will be annihilated during the building phase. As a business partner in several area restaurants, the only thing Prop A would do for those businesses is to increase operating costs above our already thin margins. And I’m sure most all businesses in Austin would say the same thing.

Bottom line, we all know that public transit is needed for travel in a metropolitan area, which is why the voters (with my support) created CapMetro in 1985. Instead of letting them foist costly rail on us, this city needs to demand that CapMetro keep its eye on the ball and run the most cost-effective, efficient and flexible bus system possible. A full penny sales tax is more than enough money for CapMetro to make this happen, if they really wanted to fulfill its mission.

Gerald Daugherty is the Travis County Precinct 3 commissioner.

 

[DanRydell 799]

I don't have any strong feelings about Prop A but if Gerald Daugherty hates it, it's almost certainly a good idea

[Guest Lobo]

I heed the advice of a lying grifter when he tells me to take a pass on another grift.  Could be a long con, but he’s outta the game now.  

[Godzillatron 292]

Gonzalo Barrientos is a guy that should be squarely behind this.

Spoiler: he’s not.


https://voicesofaustin.org/lettersfromleaders/

[Somnio 751]

I did my civic duty and voted today.

I saw a quote earlier today as well that I believe is relevant to this discussion that I want to share.

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

 

[Pasken 1309]

6 hours ago, Somnio said:

I did my civic duty and voted today.

I saw a quote earlier today as well that I believe is relevant to this discussion that I want to share.

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

 

Similarly,

[Chet Steadman 940]

Kinda off-topic yet not really, but the light synchronization in the city right now is off-the-charts bad.  I realize a lot of this likely has to do with Covid and some of it is confirmation bias, but it seems like every major east west artery right now is completely borked. 

For the past three weekday mornings in a row, I’ve hit all nine red lights traveling westbound on 38th/35th Street.  Not most of the lights.  All.nine.lights.  Three days in a row.  What should be moderate traffic is near gridlock as the cars just compound upon themselves at every stop.  I jumped over to 45th this morning and it was nearly as bad.  I’ve noticed something similar on both 5th Street and up on Braker again recently too.    

Wasn’t part of the recent bond dedicated towards light synchronization?  For a town with limited thoroughfares as it is, shouldn’t this be a relatively easy -and extremely beneficial- fix?  

[LCHorn 2612]

1 hour ago, Chet Steadman said:

Kinda off-topic yet not really, but the light synchronization in the city right now is off-the-charts bad.  I realize a lot of this likely has to do with Covid and some of it is confirmation bias, but it seems like every major east west artery right now is completely borked. 

For the past three weekday mornings in a row, I’ve hit all nine red lights traveling westbound on 38th/35th Street.  Not most of the lights.  All.nine.lights.  Three days in a row.  What should be moderate traffic is near gridlock as the cars just compound upon themselves at every stop.  I jumped over to 45th this morning and it was nearly as bad.  I’ve noticed something similar on both 5th Street and up on Braker again recently too.    

Wasn’t part of the recent bond dedicated towards light synchronization?  For a town with limited thoroughfares as it is, shouldn’t this be a relatively easy -and extremely beneficial- fix?  

I used to take Enfield to my office from 78702 every day and I’m convinced the lights were timed to impede East-West transit at every intersection.  

[Orange&White 5521]

3 hours ago, Chet Steadman said:

Kinda off-topic yet not really, but the light synchronization in the city right now is off-the-charts bad.  I realize a lot of this likely has to do with Covid and some of it is confirmation bias, but it seems like every major east west artery right now is completely borked. 

For the past three weekday mornings in a row, I’ve hit all nine red lights traveling westbound on 38th/35th Street.  Not most of the lights.  All.nine.lights.  Three days in a row.  What should be moderate traffic is near gridlock as the cars just compound upon themselves at every stop.  I jumped over to 45th this morning and it was nearly as bad.  I’ve noticed something similar on both 5th Street and up on Braker again recently too.    

Wasn’t part of the recent bond dedicated towards light synchronization?  For a town with limited thoroughfares as it is, shouldn’t this be a relatively easy -and extremely beneficial- fix?  

I wouldn't take that necessarily 100% as an accident or bad planning. The people that run this City intentionally try to make driving a car difficult in order to push their agenda.

[Somnio 751]

4 hours ago, Chet Steadman said:

 

For a town with limited thoroughfares as it is, shouldn’t this be a relatively easy -and extremely beneficial- fix?  

Apparently there are about 1000 signalized intersections within the Austin city limits.   Of course each intersection has multiple stop lights, so we're talking several thousand stop lights spread over hundreds of square miles.  It sounds like a pretty big job.

Here's a link to check out if interested...

https://data.mobility.austin.gov/signal-timing/

Edited October 20, 2020 by Somnio

[Pasken 1309]

21 hours ago, Orange&White said:

I wouldn't take that necessarily 100% as an accident or bad planning. The people that run this City intentionally try to make driving a car difficult in order to push their agenda.

That's fucking stupid.

[Orange&White 5521]

20 minutes ago, Pasken said:

That's fucking stupid.

Eat dick fuckface.

What do you call it when they have decided to cut the fucking Congress Bridge down to one lane of vehicle traffic in both directions? Or remove lanes along already over crowded corridors? There have actually been council members over the years that have verbally stated their goal to making driving more difficult. You've got some fucking city leader so far up your fucking ass that you can't see reality.

[Pasken 1309]

9 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

You've got some fucking city leader so far up your fucking ass that you can't see reality.

I've always wondered if the tin foil hats you guys wear ever get itchy. They don't seem comfortable but do what you got to I guess.

[Pasken 1309]

It would not take much to connect the proposed Blue Line light rail train to the high speed rail corridor already identified by Texas. 

 

[gsoda3 3245]

amtrak's entire new ambitious expansion which covers the entire country would cost $25B while our scaled back metrorail plan would cost $10B?

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, I know our dirt is more valuable than say that stretch along the Canadian border, but that's fucking insane you can get that much rail (insert South Austin Mom Joke here) for $25B and we're struggling to cobble together a few miles for $10b?  

[Pasken 1309]

22 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

amtrak's entire new ambitious expansion which covers the entire country would cost $25B while our scaled back metrorail plan would cost $10B?

Our plan is 7 billion. Light rail is a lot more expensive as our tunnels but yea I see your point the Amtrak estimate seems low.

[gsoda3 3245]

5 minutes ago, Pasken said:

Our plan is 7 billion. Light rail is a lot more expensive as our tunnels but yea I see your point the Amtrak estimate seems low.

would amtrak be building on existing ROW?