The Senate Trial of Donald J Trump 2020

[4th&Five 41526]

 

[horncyclist 1387]

3 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

Idk. The fucking Constitution. Jesus fucking Christ.

[Mo Horn 8832]

 Yea Mitch fucked up on that one. Should have voted to have their voting privileges removed. 

[Brisketexan 105097]

17 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

I dunno -- is this where we ask "how could a president running for re-election use the power of the entire US Government to coerce a foreign nation into investigating the family of a former US Senator running for president?"

Irony. Totally fucking dead.  Then cremated.  Then the ashes were shot into the sun.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

39 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

The question becomes why weren't the GOP senators swayed? The answer to that question has been illuminated in many fine posts on this thread already. They've aligned with a man who has been a part of organized crime since he was under the tutelage of his father. Both a part of and apart from the criminal element that understands the way power and money work with society and laws as they stand in this country. Now that Trump has the power to ignore the law, and he has the enforcers to do it, the law of the Don is the law of the land.

They're proud of this. That's just how depraved they are. They are fine with being a part of the syndicate, less power and money to share and it can satisfy the baser instincts w/o any punishment. Whomever can grab the power and move up in the syndicate with the favor of the Boss will be thus rewarded. No need to shake down the taxpayers-it's all legal when you have Barr performing the 'spring-cleaning.'

They support the murder of journalists, the abandonment of comrades in arms, and the embrace of autocrats.

Bolded for you.

[staboner 4969]

3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

The precedent would be Ataturk in Turkey. Until recently, the military there were the actual guardians of democracy.

Actually, now that I think about it, George Washington is our own precedent. All the statues to him around the world where he was a beloved figure have him extending a scroll, the power of rule, back to the people. Gary Wills' book Cincinnatus is a great, quick read on Washington.

Cincinnatus was a Roman who also returned power to the people.

Do we have such a leader?

 

Tangentially, Adam Schiff is as close as we've got to someone worthy of history in all of this disaster. I can't think of the last time a politician has so deeply moved me. As far as I'm concerned, he's heroic. I worry that he will become tragic because of the enemies gathered against him. Godspeed Adam Schiff.

Military coup, chicken coup, whatever. We know something is coming who knows what it is. I hear you on Schiff but ask you this anyway - even if we get a hero how does that hero connect across the two channels of America? Half of the country has already demonized the guy. 

War with China, aliens, a few hundred more Kobe Bryants deaths maybe. I don't know. I don't see a path out of this. Paint me a picture - explore the space - what does improved communication and common ground look like now in 2020 and after? Cuz I don't see it Roma. Lots of the common ground we shared (the world famous US federal gov ladies and gentlemen!) is currently being ripped from under our feet. 

[staboner 4969]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

They're proud of this. That's just how depraved they are.

They support the murder of journalists, the abandonment of comrades in arms, and the embrace of autocrats.

What the alleged fence sitters must be telling themselves as they cling to this POS is beyond me. Fig leaf. Sad! Do something!

Its like they are trying to tell you their values or something. over and over again. great post. Regressing back to the norm

Have a good weekend my friends

[Gil Bang 25945]

As long as we were gonna have a sham trial, the dems really should of taken more advantage of making Chief Roberts read the questions.  I would of asked the DOTARD attorneys since they want to hear from Hunter Biden, would they also be in favor or calling for testimony from other equally relevant witnesses such as Mike Hunt, Ben Dover, and  Anita Mandelay?

What about Gabe Athouse and Lou Skunt?

[RomaVicta 29906]

15 minutes ago, staboner said:

Military coup, chicken coup, whatever. We know something is coming who knows what it is. I hear you on Schiff but ask you this anyway - even if we get a hero how does that hero connect across the two channels of America? Half of the country has already demonized the guy. 

War with China, aliens, a few hundred more Kobe Bryants deaths maybe. I don't know. I don't see a path out of this. Paint me a picture - explore the space - what does improved communication and common ground look like now in 2020 and after? Cuz I don't see it Roma. Lots of the common ground we shared (the world famous US federal gov ladies and gentlemen!) is currently being ripped from under our feet. 

I don't mean to suggest that Schiff can save the day. His effort and example are heroic. Heroes do not always succeed or even survive.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Yep.

Because evil is smart and good is dumb.

Evil people assume everyone else is operating from selfish, evil, and corrupt motivations so they’re able to rationalize their evil behavior as “everyone else is acting evil, so I should too”.

Whereas, good people are naive and assume that all people have a moral code and when push comes to shove, they’ll ultimately do the right thing.

I’d much rather be on the “good side” but it’s getting exhausting holding out hope that evil will come to their moral senses.

I don’t want them to sink to evil’s level but I do wish they’d face the reality that evil is NEVER going to see the light.

I want them to use every tool they can and if that means a few dirty tricks and taking plays from the Evil Handbook, then so be it.

You can play hardball without selling your soul.

[Francisco 2.0 32389]

 

[Francisco 2.0 32389]

Perfectly normal, nothing to see here, move along:

 

 

 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I dunno -- is this where we ask "how could a president running for re-election use the power of the entire US Government to coerce a foreign nation into investigating the family of a former US Senator running for president?"

Irony. Totally fucking dead.  Then cremated.  Then the ashes were shot into the sun. Mixed into buckets of Jim Bakker’s version of Apocolypse Chow, and sold to their rube base at $99.99 a pop.  

Fify.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20395]

[Mdhorn 5948]

On 1/31/2020 at 7:32 PM, DDD Dad said:

Well of course, because one involves extramarital SEX, and the other one is just boring government stuff.

 Trump was involved in extramarital SEX too.  

 

On 1/31/2020 at 8:14 PM, Brandywine said:

Wouldn't be surprised if Trump gets Barr's approval (or tells him this is what he's going to do while Barr is bowing down to him kissing his ring) to have Schiff, Nadler, Pelosi, Schumer, and whoever he hates or wants to get revenge on, arrested and put in jail for trial. And the Republicans will be laughing and agreeing with him. 

At some point they're going to demand all evidence so they can destroy it.  

[Ted Lange 16084]

 

 

[Biff Tannen 45676]

Ok, why?  What’s the play here?

[Mo Horn 8832]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Ok, why?  What’s the play here?

To rub it in the face of the Democrats who couldn't get enough votes to get documents for the impeachment trial. At his next rally he'll just come out and say he did give Ukraine a quid pro quo. 

[Lurch 5930]

Delay, deflect and deny. Same playbook as always

[Chad Fuck 17672]

To rub it in the face of the Democrats who couldn't get enough votes to get documents for the impeachment trial. At his next rally he'll just come out and say he did give Ukraine a quid pro quo. 

There is a greater than zero chance of this happening.

Still won’t matter.

[tx 3 putt 76911]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Ok, why?  What’s the play here?

because he can do as he wants, unlimited power 

[jimmyjazz 45903]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Ok, why?  What’s the play here?

Owning the libtards.

[Ted Lange 16084]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Ok, why?  What’s the play here?

Because they were forced to by the courts.   From the article linked.

 

The filings from the executive branch came Friday to meet a court-ordered January 31 deadline. A judge had specifically asked for an email-by-email breakdown of what the Justice Department redacted or withheld in Defense Department and OMB emails about the aid, and why it did so, after the Center for Public Integrity sued and got access to them in December through the Freedom of Information Act.

[RomaVicta 29906]

2 hours ago, Ted Lange said:

 

 

I'm sorry. Ever since that horrible time Schiff quoted the CBS story about heads on pikes, I just can't be expected to tolerate anymore evidence. I've got the vapors really bad.

[Bruh Man 3160]

4 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Perfectly normal, nothing to see here, move along:

 

 

 

God this country really sucks right now.

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Degenerate Gardner
nah

[Mdhorn 5948]

9 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

congrats, you have just encapsulated the entire republican world view. merely change professional sports to politics and professional athletes to politicians, and you have the republican justification for acquitting trump.

Well, if Republicans don't hear from witnesses or read anything, then they can cling to not seeing evidence of corruption.  They are going out of their way to hide from this stuff.  And if they can find one false misstep from Schiff and the Democrats, then it absolves the Republicans of all transgressions, regardless of a mountain proof.  If they were concerned with national security at all, they'd at least investigate but they won't even look at what is there or why, much less how much and whether it's the only crime.  And that's because they're complicit.

Trump is the corrupt sheriff and the Senate are his deputies.  And it won't take long before something they do affect citizens regardless of support.  Trump always talks about loyalty--we all know the types of people that do that.  But loyalty to him means taking a sentence for him--he does not care about his supporters.  They say vote knowing they are undermining the Democratic apparatus. They wouldn't openly state yeah, come get us in November and rely on an honest outcome or they wouldn't have cheated to begin with much less green lighted it.  

I can't believe Americans have really become too fat and lazy to think critically--to support someone that on multiple occasions wouldn't serve their country and declared bankruptcy many times to stiff creditors.  Now they'll support him bringing in foreign election interference which, let's be honest, also involves bribery since money is involved. Those allowing it are criminals, especially if they think they can control it or even limit it.  They're wrong, they know it and they're complicit no matter which way they try and spin it.  

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20395]

6 hours ago, Bruh Man said:

God this country really sucks right now.

[Nivek 16923]

I can't believe Americans have really become too fat and lazy to think critically--to support someone that on multiple occasions wouldn't serve their country and declared bankruptcy many times to stiff creditors.  Now they'll support him bringing in foreign election interference which, let's be honest, also involves bribery since money is involved. Those allowing it are criminals, especially if they think they can control it or even limit it.  They're wrong, they know it and they're complicit no matter which way they try and spin it.  

Being fed propaganda, combined with poor wages and increased stress, increased costs leaves little time to investigate matters.

[Pam Cummings 9640]

14 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Yep.

Because evil is smart and good is dumb.

Evil people assume everyone else is operating from selfish, evil, and corrupt motivations so they’re able to rationalize their evil behavior as “everyone else is acting evil, so I should too”.

Whereas, good people are naive and assume that all people have a moral code and when push comes to shove, they’ll ultimately do the right thing.

I’d much rather be on the “good side” but it’s getting exhausting holding out hope that evil will come to their moral senses.

I don’t want them to sink to evil’s level but I do wish they’d face the reality that evil is NEVER going to see the light.

I want them to use every tool they can and if that means a few dirty tricks and taking plays from the Evil Handbook, then so be it.

You can play hardball without selling your soul.

https://southpark.cc.com/clips/188249/fight-the-cancer

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

57 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Being fed propaganda, combined with poor wages and increased stress, increased costs leaves little time to investigate matters.
 

Depending upon where one falls in the social strata from upper middle on down to simply trying to keep a roof under ones' head there is time spent:

Reinforcing one's beliefs in whichever bubble one inhabits (your propaganda), keeping up with popular culture through television shows, movies, fashion, sports, fantasy sport's teams, monitoring what the neighbors are doing on NextDoor, monitoring what someone who has no influence on your life whatsoever via some random crime halfway across the country that your local news station wants you to have outrage, fear, shock, smugness over, and on and on.

Like you state, the very basic needs are hard enough to secure, but even once that level of security is reached, there are plenty of ways to distract the populace from asking questions and investigating the status quo.

[Ted Lange 16084]

Hahahahaha

 

[jimmyjazz 45903]

surly trial lawyers:  what are the means by which new evidence can be introduced into a trial once it has commenced?

[FondrenRoad 4378]

27 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

Hahahahaha

 

Now that the Reichstag Senate and courts have rubber stamped the ruling party's ability to engage in otherwise illegal activity against the minority party and carry out extrajudicial punishments, the long knives start to come out.

It's all talk from Graham now though. The subpoenas and sham hearings will only come after Biden has won the primary, and the hearings will start directly before the election.  On the day before the general election, a witness will testify that Biden committed a truly atrocious act.  Every media outlet will cover it. 2 days later, that person, now safely in their Moscow apartment, will admit they were lying in an interview with CNN.  They will have recordings of meetings with Trump, Graham, and McConnell. Nothing will come of that admission and Trump will be sworn in again. 

The Biden plan is already in motion so we are aware of what it is. Be sure though, that the Trump Senate has a plan just as dastardly for every possible primary winner. The truth is completely irrelevant. There need not actually be a skeleton in the closet. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

No need for 5 story buildings with windows when you have Bill Barr and the DoJ watching over your cell....

[FondrenRoad 4378]

15 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

No need for 5 story buildings with windows when you have Bill Barr and the DoJ watching over your cell....

Yup. But after the election, we will be at the point where Russia will start to leak everything. They benefit from having Trump and the Senate on top, but they benefit more by having widespread dissent and disarray disrupting Trump's rule. Russia doesn't want us to have a functional autocratic gov't like they have. They want us to have a dysfunctional autocratic gov't where the US military has to put down civil unrest at home. 

A strong autocratic GOP state that has already tamped down internal dissent and subverted free elections would absolutely ramp up a massive new proxy war with Russia.  Kompromat is useless at that point. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[RomaVicta 29906]

The GOPs are fighting a desperate rear guard battle to maintain their firewall.

The senate protects the president; the president protects the GOP criminal organization from the justice department until members of the criminal organization control and infest the justice department. 

It increasingly looks like the 2020 election is the one shot to pierce the GOP defense. I firmly believe that the GOP has stolen elections before and are just getting better at it as time goes by. 

They've turned their party into a raging bunch of NFL fanatics who pull for whoever wears their team's jersey. If the players are wife-beaters, likely murderers, or any type of felon doesn't really matter. Just win baby. Just win so I can feel like a winner even as you're robbing my house and setting up a banana republic. 

We'll even throw in celebrated, flashy trash entertainment at halftime for you. Just keep buying the tickets and merchandise and believing that you're winning!

I think I'll skip the game today. I usually watch for the spectacle (I follow college ball not NFL) and to share the experience with everybody else. It used to feel like unity. Now it reminds me of just how fucked up everything is. A player expresses an opinion by kneeling (on the advice of a decorated war veteran on how to respectfully make his statement), and the president leads the charge of haters by lying about the meaning of the gesture. The GOP fanatics lap up the vomit like it's cheesecake.

I don't think I can stomach American flags, commercial appeals to patriotism, and the general air of American self-congratulation associated with the Super Bowl. It would make me feel too much like Adam Schiff must feel watching the absurd parade heading toward disaster. 

Nothing bad enough can happen to the traitors who will high five their "victory" this week.

Big cage. Cold ocean. Shoved over the side after a long slow cruise in winter. Big fuckin' cage.

[Hook1997 5354]

I like how Mitt is being hated on and blackballed for voting for witnesses in a trial....  Don’t get it twisted though the other side would of done the exact same thing if rolls were reversed, it so partisan and far apart now that it’s a joke.  

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20395]

[Tom 2959]

2 hours ago, Ted Lange said:

Hahahahaha

 

 

I hope this happens and the Bidens and any former Obama officials tell them to go fuck themselves, giving the same cooperation that Trump gave during the sham Senate trial.

Since Ukraine fell through thanks to those meddling Democrats, it looks like Lindsey and Senate Republicans are going to pick up the slack and do Trump's 2020 election meddling for him.

[Ted Lange 16084]

Im sure this sham outrage and investigation talk will go about the same as when Trump and the right wing nutjobs were howling about Obama spying on trump.....oooops

 

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31452]

23 hours ago, Horn Dog said:

Question for the Surly attorneys.  At what point does a president lose the ability to invoke executive privilege?  If the senate wants to investigate the Biden’s can Obama claim executive privilege, instruct all witnesses from his administration to ignore the Senate’s subpoenas and lock it up in the courts just like dotard? If not does this mean that dotard’s privilege expires with his presidency?     

Good question. I don't think anyone knows when/how executive privilege expires. 

Yes Obama could do that and let the courts sort it out. 

Executive privilege is at its strongest when it implicates national security, so I would guess that that kind of information remains privileged after the presidency.  Less sensitive information probably does not. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

53 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

I hope this happens and the Bidens and any former Obama officials tell them to go fuck themselves, giving the same cooperation that Trump gave during the sham Senate trial.

Since Ukraine fell through thanks to those meddling Democrats, it looks like Lindsey and Senate Republicans are going to pick up the slack and do Trump's 2020 election meddling for him.

Oh, you think the Senate is just going to let these private citizens tell the Senate to fuck themselves?

They'll put it in Trump appointee Kelly's court in DC.  Kelly is relatively impartial though.  It will get appealed to the DC circuit court of appeals where 2 of the 3 judges "randomly" selected to hear the appeal will be Trump appointees Rao and Katsas, both of whom have shown themselves to be lackeys.  Rao in particular pretty much takes orders directly from Trump.  Then SCOTUS, in a 5-4 decision written by Kavanaugh, will send Biden and the rest of the officials to the Senate floor in ankle chains.

This is really the only reason Senate Republicans kneel before Trump.  They want to fuck up our court system for generations, so they can get rulings exactly like that.  Nothing else matters to them.

The only stopgap in this whole thing is that the GOP hasn't figured out how to fuck up the NY state court system yet, and it is where everything is going to happen in either January 2021 or January 2025.  While Trump is certainly working on a way to maintain control after two terms, it is still unlikely he is able to accomplish it.

Edited February 2, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[crash_davis 23107]

nsiap

[Gil Bang 25945]

4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Good question. I don't think anyone knows when/how executive privilege expires. 

Yes Obama could do that and let the courts sort it out. 

Executive privilege is at its strongest when it implicates national security, so I would guess that that kind of information remains privileged after the presidency.  Less sensitive information probably does not. 

Trump could, in theory, declassify the material in question, could he not?

[Disco Strangler 1866]

6 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Good question. I don't think anyone knows when/how executive privilege expires. 

Yes Obama could do that and let the courts sort it out. 

Executive privilege is at its strongest when it implicates national security, so I would guess that that kind of information remains privileged after the presidency.  Less sensitive information probably does not. 

Surly attorney here say that Pat Cippolone violated ethics rules by participating in the defense while he was a fact witness to the meeting directing the quid pro quo.  Needs to lose his law license over that.  
 

[TwiceHorn 31452]

25 minutes ago, Disco Strangler said:

Surly attorney here say that Pat Cippolone violated ethics rules by participating in the defense while he was a fact witness to the meeting directing the quid pro quo.  Needs to lose his law license over that.  
 

That's not cut and dried.

It used to be a big deal such that any attorney who could be called as a witness in a proceeding could and should be disqualified as counsel for a party to that proceeding.  That rule has gone by the wayside almost universally, unless the attorney is an essential witness to make his client's case.  If s/he might be a witness called by an opponent, that's less of a problem.

And it's never been a disbarment matter, just a disqualification of counsel matter.

Most of what Cipollone knows would be legitimately attorney-client or executive privileged.

[TwiceHorn 31452]

7 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Good question. I don't think anyone knows when/how executive privilege expires. 

Yes Obama could do that and let the courts sort it out. 

Executive privilege is at its strongest when it implicates national security, so I would guess that that kind of information remains privileged after the presidency.  Less sensitive information probably does not. 

Addendum:  because there is no Obama administration anymore, I don't suppose he could "order" anyone to do anything.  In any event, I imagine most Obama administration officials would invoke executive privilege only where it applied and on a question-by-question basis, which is the way Trump should have done it except he's a shitgibbon.  A private litigant would be sanctioned to hell for trying that, it's clearly impermissible.  I imagine it will be clearly impermissible for the President to invoke a blanket privilege and refuse to produce a witness after the Supremes get ahold of it.

[TwiceHorn 31452]

3 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

Trump could, in theory, declassify the material in question, could he not?

Executive privilege exists apart from any security classification.  It applies to "deliberative" matters in the executive. That is, discussions among the President, White House staff, and Cabinet members pertaining to executive action of some sort.  And documents/records generated in the course of those deliberations. Some of those deliberative matters "implicate" national security even if they aren't, strictly speaking, classified.  Other deliberative matters have nothing to do with national security and could not conceivably be classified, but are privileged nonetheless.

Like any privilege, it may be waived by failing to assert it, by opening the deliberative discussions to third parties (Giuliani perhaps), or by tweeting or otherwise making public the subject matter that is allegedly privileged.

Unlike the attorney-client privilege, executive privilege yields to a "need."  That need is going to be strongest for a criminal defendant who needs executive privileged information to defend himself, which I believe was the case in some of the Watergate trials.  It could also yield to a simple need for the evidence: unavailable from any other source and extremely important.

Edited February 3, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

7 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I imagine it will be clearly impermissible for the President to invoke a blanket privilege and refuse to produce a witness after the Supremes get ahold of it.

Cute.