The Senate Trial of Donald J Trump 2020

[TwiceHorn 31516]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The stock market wouldn't be going as gangbusters because Hillary wouldn't have advocated a corporate tax cut that drove public companies to buy back shares (as opposed to hiring more people, investing in R&D and infrastructure, etc.).

While I think this is part of it, I think an even larger part of it is just the general atmosphere of "we can get away with anything right now."

[Continental Op 3934]

17 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

I'm assuming you wrote in Mike Hunt four times?

I wish I had done that instead of voting for Libertarian charlatans. 

[jimmyjazz 46004]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

While I think this is part of it, I think an even larger part of it is just the general atmosphere of "we can get away with anything right now."

Oh, agreed, stock buyback isn't the whole story, but it's thought to be a fairly significant contributor.

[jimmyjazz 46004]

Just now, Continental Op said:

I wish I had done that instead of voting for Libertarian charlatans. 

Gary S. Johnson?

[Continental Op 3934]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Gary S. Johnson?

Yes.  Him and that Badnerick dude. Except I actually voted for him unlike many of the Gary Johnson Voters on here who seem to jerk off to every single thing Trump does. 

[jimmyjazz 46004]

Just now, Continental Op said:

Yes.  Him and that Badnerick dude. Except I actually voted for him unlike many of the Gary Johnson Voters on here who seem to jerk off to every single thing Trump does. 

(While I appreciate the admission, it was a horrible attempt on my part to hint at "Gary's Johnson", as opposed to Mike Hawk or Mike Hunt.)

[F250 28805]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

(While I appreciate the admission, it was a horrible attempt on my part to hint at "Gary's Johnson", as opposed to Mike Hawk or Mike Hunt.)

My Dixie Wrecked.

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

Still relevant. Still prescient. Nothing I've observed since it was published in 2007 disputes it. The Republicans have been the party dedicated to the consolidation of power in the presidency for the past 50+ years. Trump is the fulfillment of the imperial presidency. He's turning us into a monarchy. 

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

But you really don't like Hillary so it's all okay. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

3 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

But you really don't like Hillary so it's all okay. 

Forgive me if I'm mixing you up with another Surly person, but didn't you refer to some French horn player/bassoonist w/respect to the Prayer Breakfast? I can't remember the person's name but it had to do with a puppet master type of situation. If that was you, does the book above talk about that at all? Or is there another resource discussing him? I have a library trip planned this weekend, and may see if they have materials.

 

If it wasn't you, sorry for the mixup but I am still going to look for that book.

[GW Hayduke 1953]

4 hours ago, immamac said:

You people in here acting like Hillary wasn't just as bad as Trump are really something else - the only difference is she wouldn't have been gloating publicly about most of it and she's a "more political" public speaker. 

What does this even mean?

She is a “more political” public speaker? How does that relate to anything? 

Hillary would have completely refused to respond to any inquiries and obstructed congress? Not a chance.

Hillary would have stopped passing legislation? That was the GOP in the House that stopped passing anything. The GOP in the senate is currently sitting on tons of bills. Check out HB1 if you aren’t familiar.

The both sides are the same narrative is weak and rarely grounded 

[pyrohornIII 4817]

 

2 hours ago, immamac said:

This is exactly what I'm trying to convey. Regardless of who or what the issue was the president will always do as much as they can and since the line in the Sand can seemingly just be redrawn further and further it just will. 

Am I saying Hillary would have sprinted past it and said fuck it there is no line suckers like Trump seemingly has. Absolutely not, but I am saying ANYONE who is president is going to redraw that line in the Sand to where they are comfortable pushing it. 

Yes.

1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

I think the executive power creep is a larger symptom of the partisan gridlock in congress though.  If you don't have executive and congress in the same party, things are stuck.  So presidents are using executive orders more and more to pass even moderate agenda issues forward.  It goes back to the larger point of your post.  Tribalism has ruined everything.  

Bingo.    Started by Gingrich.  

 

58 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Still relevant. Still prescient. Nothing I've observed since it was published in 2007 disputes it. The Republicans have been the party dedicated to the consolidation of power in the presidency for the past 50+ years. Trump is the fulfillment of the imperial presidency. He's turning us into a monarchy. 

But Immamac's argument they would all do it holds water.    Easier to control/influence one person than a whole group of legislators.   Cheaper too.

 

BTW what's the difference between a monarch, a emperor and a dictator?   Had to google.  Dictator takes control by force or machination.  Monarchy is over just one kingdom, not a lot, that would be an emperor..lording over an empire.  Emperors and monarchies are tend to be passed down through bloodlines.   So Trump would be potential dictator shooting for monarchy, shooting for empire?  

[F250 28805]

1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

I think the executive power creep is a larger symptom of the partisan gridlock in congress though.  If you don't have executive and congress in the same party, things are stuck.  So presidents are using executive orders more and more to pass even moderate agenda issues forward.  It goes back to the larger point of your post.  Tribalism has ruined everything.  

Agreed. I am curious if this is tied to the Republicans and Democrats moving to a more unified national platform that eliminated a heterogeneous representation on both sides of the aisle. Most of us probably remember Texas Democrats that were more conservative than New York Republicans. It seems that bipartisan efforts in Congress have decreased as the two parties became more homogeneous. Reps and Senators appear to vote against their local interests in support of a national party interests. For example Cruz and Cornyn should have fought against Trump regarding NAFTA since NAFTA benefits the state of Texas..

Granted, Cruz and Cornyn would have faced the wrath of Trump supporters in their primary elections. The zealots seem to control the Republican primary process which also explains the pogroms against the moderate and liberal Republicans in the 90's.

Maybe the political primaries are our weak spot since it is where politicians are punished for stepping out of line.

[maninblack 7974]

6 hours ago, DixonHur said:

You had to look at a map to know where the Baltic states are?  Holy Christ, no wonder Pompeo tried the ole find Ukraine on the map trick.  Probably works with 95% of you dumb fucking cultists.

It was sarcasm dumb dumb. 

[pyrohornIII 4817]

4 hours ago, immamac said:

Partisanship has killed democracy in our country. 

The stupidity of people not understanding that the president doesn't make the laws has fucked our entire system of government and now the power creep has been realized to it's maximum. 

Facts we now know:

1) there will never be another time more dangerous to our country and it's representative government than one party holding complete control of the House, Senate and Presidency. 

2) as long as the president and Senate are from the same party the president has unlimited power and is above the law since he cannot be stopped or removed from office. The president can also apparently just say everything is classified under executive privilege

3) there will be absolute deadlock in the event of a party split along the legislative and executive branch where 4 years of policymaking will come to a complete halt including setting budgets in a stupid game of chicken which results in the American people being the casualties. 

You people in here acting like Hillary wasn't just as bad as Trump are really something else - the only difference is she wouldn't have been gloating publicly about most of it and she's a "more political" public speaker. 

There are only a few paths to fix this, one is bloody and one makes too much sense to work so I guess we are headed for revolution. 

The bloody way is obvious. Gerrymandering, lack of representation in government and abuse of power finally breaks the camel's back of the MAJORITY of Americans who are voting one way or another. People start killing each other and government officials until the Constitution is amended to allow for better representation.

The way that makes too much sense is to just amend the fucking constitution so elections are fair and balanced. No gerrymandering, no corporate funding, cap election campaign finance or restrict it to individual donors only, within the scope of the election (house reps can't take individual financing from individuals outside the state, pres can take from anyone naturalized or with permanent residency).  This will destroy the 2 party system as we know it overnight and allow for a true representative government where partisanship isn't the focus and actual constituent representation becomes the focus again. 

Basically stop paying our political parties like fucking pro sports teams and feeling like you have to "pick a side" and it'll work again. 

Putting aside the Hillary argument, I think this is very perceptive.  But I would add a third way, but it's more a combination of the two.  Just hopefully with less bloodshed.

Unfortunately, a large section of America have slowly supplanted their American ideals (truth, liberty and justice for all) with this notion of 'I've got mine, screw you.'  It's not everyone, but it is enough to have re-designed our government to meet their ends.  That group, or base, who is supplying the votes in this gerrymandered system have one common rally cry: The Economy!!   

When the economy finally starts its long awaited decline due to Trump's policies and actions, I think he and his group must still be held accountable.  If he is not in office and the economy fails, then his base will blame whoever is in office and cry that Trump would never have destroyed the economy.  See what you did bringing in this lib?  Bring back Trump.

I think the economy has to fail big while he is in charge.  It clearly has to be his plans and policies at fault.  Then maybe we can start to get that re-birth that  immamac is speaking of, where we go back to true honest representation and equal powers among the 3 branches.  

I don't think the economy will crash before November, or if it does it won't be a hard enough crash to damage him.  It has to be lots of tremors and quakes to wake everyone up to the problem.  All markets need to show decline under his watch, and they will.  Yes, environment, immigration, healthcare, and all else are being ravaged by this administration, but it's the economy that keeps the base in line.  Everything he is doing in the way of deregulation and tearing down ACA all leads to less costs for corporations, thus bigger returns on stocks.  It all serves the economy, the short term economy.

It doesn't have to be some return to years of another Great Depression.  But it does have to be significant enough to wake everyone from this malaise.  Dare I say it needs to be ledge-worthy?

It took decades to build this culture, starting in earnest with Reagan and Gingrich.  It won't be destroyed in 4 years of horrid presidency.  It will take another 4 years for the brutal results to come clear, to show the utter failure of this philosophy of greed over justice and equality.  And Trump needs to be behind the wheel so he and his supporters/enablers can take full responsibility for the collapse.  Then we stand a better chance of restructuring.  Quite the juxtaposition, to allow the devil to retain his seat in order to defeat he and the forces that put him there.  To pay the consequences for actions that were undoubtedly his.  

The more of his base he disappoints, the less will stand up for the ideals, the man.  Less bloodshed.  

In the meantime, we work to get better legislators in the house and senate.  So when it does start to topple, intelligent people are there to help this re-birth.  

[Mole 4333]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Forgive me if I'm mixing you up with another Surly person, but didn't you refer to some French horn player/bassoonist w/respect to the Prayer Breakfast? I can't remember the person's name but it had to do with a puppet master type of situation. If that was you, does the book above talk about that at all? Or is there another resource discussing him? I have a library trip planned this weekend, and may see if they have materials.

 

If it wasn't you, sorry for the mixup but I am still going to look for that book.

Rainn Wilson, The Bassoon King?

[DDD Dad 14346]

4 hours ago, zork said:

 

I feel dumber for having listened all the way through his speech.  What an amazing failure in logic.  I was in agreement with him right up until he started to talk about how the last 80 years was the foundation for this impeachment.  DEEP STATE!!!!!

Zork, if you're just going to post a video and expect anyone to take you seriously, you might consider offering some commentary of your own.

[DDD Dad 14346]

3 hours ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Do you even Crimea, bro? They have invaded. They are there, in Ukrainian territory right now. 

Did you not get the Pompeo memo?  Crimea is Russian territory.  Ukraine isn't ever getting that back.  

[wildcat09 29360]

1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

What does this even mean?

She is a “more political” public speaker? How does that relate to anything? 

Hillary would have completely refused to respond to any inquiries and obstructed congress? Not a chance.

Hillary would have stopped passing legislation? That was the GOP in the House that stopped passing anything. The GOP in the senate is currently sitting on tons of bills. Check out HB1 if you aren’t familiar.

The both sides are the same narrative is weak and rarely grounded 

I'm laughing to myself right now imagining how the media would cover it. My god, the NY Times would absolutely destroy her in that scenario. Their coverage sure as shit wouldn't focus on the risk the GOP would be taking in opposing her.

[TwiceHorn 31516]

Heard this on NPR/KERA today.  Interesting interview for putting the whole impeachment thing in some sort of perspective.

https://think.kera.org/2020/02/07/what-trumps-acquittal-means-for-future-impeachments/

[hayden_horn 11364]

welp, vindman just got fired and escorted off white house grounds.

[GW Hayduke 1953]

24 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm laughing to myself right now imagining how the media would cover it. My god, the NY Times would absolutely destroy her in that scenario. Their coverage sure as shit wouldn't focus on the risk the GOP would be taking in opposing her.

This reminds me that Vox has rather good video on why mainstream media like the Times treat the left less favorably than the right and it’s mainly because of Fox and other far-right media.

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33881]

4 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

welp, vindman just got fired and escorted off white house grounds.

if there wasn't a schism between the white house and the military I bet there is now

[DDD Dad 14346]

5 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

welp, vindman just got fired and escorted off white house grounds.

He's draining the swamp!

[DDD Dad 14346]

1 minute ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

if there wasn't a schism between the white house and the military I bet there is now

Nah, Vindman is a foreigner.  And he has a twin.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13586]

5 hours ago, immamac said:

 

@TXSG8R the rules are clear - the president can do anything and no one can stop them. Why would Hillary (or any President)stop herself/themselves? What are these "rules" you keep referencing? 

 

If this was more about executive power creep than it is about asymmetrical  political power creep, Shirley Sherrod would have never lost her job based on an indisputably false allegation. Obama getting rid of her to even avoid the appearance of impropriety is less an example of Obama not quite being able to flex the ever increasing muscle of the executive branch to the extent Trump did when he was warned, then went ahead and hired a foreign agent as his National Security Advisor than it is of an almost polar opposite standard.

Somehow despite the ever increasing power of the executive branch, Obama was prevented from even getting a Senate hearing on his rightful Supreme Court pick- a fairly routine process that supposedly weaker previous presidents rightfully expected and got- by McConnell who was quite candid in stating not only would a hypothetical Trump SC candidate get a hearing in the final year of his term, he'd be seated.

[Tuco 5077]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

Nah, Vindman is a foreigner.  And he has a twin.

His twin left with him.  Unsure if he was also fired. 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

Cool. No more people wanting to stand up for corruption because they'll be fired and labeled an enemy of the state. This will get worse and worse quicker now that Trump is starting to see his power solidify around him, including the senate. He has a group of enablers now. No more adults in the room. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by SmokeyTheBear

[hayden_horn 11364]

4 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Cool. No more people wanting to stand up for corruption because they'll be fired and labeled an enemy of the state. This'll will get worse and worse quicker now that Trump is starting to see his power solidify around him, including the senate. He has a group of enablers now. No more adults in the room. 

yeah, shit is going to go even further off the rails

[jimmyjazz 46004]

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

yeah, shit is going to go even further off the rails

I'm not entirely against it, given the potential ramifications (if you get my drift).

[David Dennison 18941]

11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm not entirely against it, given the potential ramifications (if you get my drift).

I hope he goes further off the rails. The worst thing in the world for everyone would be for him to act normally. He's his own worst enemy.

[TwiceHorn 31516]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

Nah, Vindman is a foreigner.  And he has a twin.

Is he a ginger, too?

[Brandywine 1316]

16 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I hope he goes further off the rails. The worst thing in the world for everyone would be for him to act normally. He's his own worst enemy.

Trump is a very dangerous man, with a whole slew of powerful people in the government supporting him. I remember when the Reps feared Obama taking charge of the military and taking over our country. Of course that was ridiculous and fear mongering to get their followers scared. This thing under Trump? That scenario seems real. And very scary. The man has serious mental issues. And so does his children especially Jr.

[Brisketexan 105187]

47 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Cool. No more people wanting to stand up for corruption because they'll be fired and labeled an enemy of the state. This will get worse and worse quicker now that Trump is starting to see his power solidify around him, including the senate. He has a group of enablers now. No more adults in the room. 

 

43 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

yeah, shit is going to go even further off the rails

Y'all have no idea how bad this is going to get.

A narcissist toddler, with effectively infinite power, has been told that there are no rules/no consequences.  There will never be any fixing this.

[pacman 7367]

2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

welp, vindman just got fired and escorted off white house grounds.

and all the "we support the military unlike the leftist pigs" trumpians will turn on two well decorated military servicemen, once again, in favor of dear leader bone spurs, a noted draft dodger

all the while keeping a straight face and refusing to acknowledge the hypocrisy, immoral nature of it all

i had a similar conversation with my uncle, who was drafted into war, yet is a noted trump supporter. before i mentioned trump, he told me of the prevailing redneck (i.e. huge trump supporters now) attitude of hatred towards draft dodgers. the conversation sucked.

yes, the brother was fired as well

Edited February 7, 2020 by pacman

[pacman 7367]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Y'all have no idea how bad this is going to get.

A narcissist toddler, with effectively infinite power, has been told that there are no rules/no consequences.  There will never be any fixing this.

should we be thankful Trump didn't take a note from his buddy Kim and just have Vindman taken away and killed?

Edited February 7, 2020 by pacman

[DDD Dad 14346]

6 minutes ago, pacman said:

should we be thankful Trump didn't take a note from his buddy Kim and just have Vindman taken away and killed?

See, he's not an authoritarian.

[Jive Turkey 12633]

1 hour ago, Tuco said:

His twin left with him.  Unsure if he was also fired. 

twin was fired, too.

 

[Brisketexan 105187]

1 hour ago, pacman said:

should we be thankful Trump didn't take a note from his buddy Kim and just have Vindman taken away and killed?

The only blessing in this -- and seriously, I mean it -- is that Trump is the biggest fucking pussy in the history of the world.  He doesn't have the fucking spine to actually order a hit.  Thank God for that particular Trump character flaw.

[Horn Dog 9888]

4 hours ago, pyrohornIII said:

When the economy finally starts its long awaited decline due to Trump's policies and actions, I think he and his group must still be held accountable.  If he is not in office and the economy fails, then his base will blame whoever is in office and cry that Trump would never have destroyed the economy.  See what you did bringing in this lib?  Bring back Trump.

I think the economy has to fail big while he is in charge.  It clearly has to be his plans and policies at fault.  Then maybe we can start to get that re-birth that  immamac is speaking of, where we go back to true honest representation and equal powers among the 3 branches.  

I don't think the economy will crash before November, or if it does it won't be a hard enough crash to damage him.  It has to be lots of tremors and quakes to wake everyone up to the problem.  All markets need to show decline under his watch, and they will.  Yes, environment, immigration, healthcare, and all else are being ravaged by this administration, but it's the economy that keeps the base in line.  Everything he is doing in the way of deregulation and tearing down ACA all leads to less costs for corporations, thus bigger returns on stocks.  It all serves the economy, the short term economy.

It doesn't have to be some return to years of another Great Depression.  But it does have to be significant enough to wake everyone from this malaise.  Dare I say it needs to be ledge-worthy?

It took decades to build this culture, starting in earnest with Reagan and Gingrich.  It won't be destroyed in 4 years of horrid presidency.  It will take another 4 years for the brutal results to come clear, to show the utter failure of this philosophy of greed over justice and equality.  And Trump needs to be behind the wheel so he and his supporters/enablers can take full responsibility for the collapse.  Then we stand a better chance of restructuring.  Quite the juxtaposition, to allow the devil to retain his seat in order to defeat he and the forces that put him there.  To pay the consequences for actions that were undoubtedly his.  

The achilles heel of your argument is Fox News and the fact the the GOP is now a full blown cult.   Even if we go into a major depression while Trump is in office, it will never be his fault.  It will be the dems fault. And because of Fox News, 40-50% of the population will believe it.  He can do absolutely no wrong.  Joe Walsh has a WashPo Oped  about how the GOP is a cult.  He talks to GOP supporters who believe that Trump has NEVER told a lie, never golfs, the trillion dollar deficit is fake. There will never be a moment of “taking full responsibility” or “waking people up”.  Fox will make sure of that...and it will work.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

10 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

 Even if we go into a major depression while Trump is in office, it will never be his fault.  It will be the fault of others. The others can take any form in addition to Democrats as long as they are identified as 'not us.'

FIF me.

[Nivek 16949]

if there wasn't a schism between the white house and the military I bet there is now

Yeah right. They may furrow a brow here or there at best.

[Nivek 16949]

The achilles heel of your argument is Fox News and the fact the the GOP is now a full blown cult.   Even if we go into a major depression while Trump is in office, it will never be his fault.  It will be the dems fault. And because of Fox News, 40-50% of the population will believe it.  He can do absolutely no wrong.  Joe Walsh has a WashPo Oped  about how the GOP is a cult.  He talks to GOP supporters who believe that Trump has NEVER told a lie, never golfs, the trillion dollar deficit is fake. There will never be a moment of “taking full responsibility” or “waking people up”.  Fox will make sure of that...and it will work.

They are not 40-50 percent of the population. They are that range of the non-suppressed voting population.

[TexArcher 37997]

So can Vindman's twin sue for wrongful termination?

Trump is such a mafioso wannabe.

[TwiceHorn 31516]

The good thing for Vindmen is that they aren't really fired.  They're both Army officers and will remain so.  They just are removed from the NSC detail.  Doubt that entailed any extra pay or anything.  Plus they don't have to go to work with a shitgibbon every day. 

I see Sondland got the axe, also.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

22 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The good thing for Vindmen is that they aren't really fired.  They're both Army officers and will remain so.  They just are removed from the NSC detail.  Doubt that entailed any extra pay or anything.  Plus they don't have to go to work with a shitgibbon every day. 

I see Sondland got the axe, also.

Bill Taylor stepped down from the embassy in Ukraine in January, but his clock at the State Department is ticking. I expect him to retire as Yovanovitch did. Fiona Hill had already left and was returning to the Brookings Institute when she testified. Kurt Volker resigned as did Timothy Morrison.

George Kent, Jessica Williams, Laura Cooper, David Hale, and David Holmes status is uncertain as far as I know.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

8 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Forgive me if I'm mixing you up with another Surly person, but didn't you refer to some French horn player/bassoonist w/respect to the Prayer Breakfast? I can't remember the person's name but it had to do with a puppet master type of situation. If that was you, does the book above talk about that at all? Or is there another resource discussing him? I have a library trip planned this weekend, and may see if they have materials.

 

If it wasn't you, sorry for the mixup but I am still going to look for that book.

I'm quoting myself, but I finally remembered the name of the french horn guy--Arthur Brookes.

[Fudge Nuggets 19210]

On 2/6/2020 at 5:21 PM, Brisketexan said:

Finland doesn't need a shitload of complex weapons.  Just a few rifles, properly sighted in....

 

I'll send 'em a few Academy gift cards, and the Russians will be fucked.

Good thing they’re white so they can leave the store with their arsenals and not catch any grief.

[Satchel 6939]

14 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

You are completely wrong.

He was doing good until he made that assertion. 

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

17 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Now is the time for all good citizens to come to the aid of their country:

Another journalist (a Chechen blogger critical of the pro Russian president) was stabbed and killed in France this week in an apparent hit job. How long before the journalists and critics here disappear?

You mean other than Jamal Khashoggi?