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The Senate Trial of Donald J Trump 2020

tx 3 putt

By tx 3 putt
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Continental Op

Continental Op 3934

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What the tapes do is indisputably and directly tie Trump to Parnas and the Ukraine scheme, and underpinnings of his ongoing impeachment.  He’s obviously lying his ass off about it.  His lying about it is now indisputable.  Parnas is a mobster under indictment and is tied to a lot of cash funneled into GOP coffers.  God only knows what oligarch mobster is his boss, and how disposable Trump is to them in the big picture.
We’ve only learned about the tip of fecal iceberg and now there’s no denying it goes straight through Trump.  GOP complicitly covers up at their own peril.  It’s only going to get worse.
 
But Trump hangs out with so many people who are under indictment that it's impossible to keep them all straight and the Democrats just aren't being faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaair.
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TexArcher
TexArcher

Of course we're not getting witnesses and of course Trump is getting acquitted.  This was only going to end one way. Schiff was brilliant.  And none of the people who needed to hear it did.

Zavala
Zavala

DAMN YOU RUSSIA!

Longhorn_Fan68
Longhorn_Fan68

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ChiTownDoc

ChiTownDoc 21350

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14 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

When this is all over, which will probably be about noon on Monday, the House needs to dump everything they have and go scorched earth.  There is no reason not to.

Yes - but time it properly.  Play politics like the R’s do and blast him right around election time. 

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Nivek

Nivek 17426

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The Democrats need to keep this in the NEWS nationally.  The GOP kept having multiple bullshit hearings about Benghazi and there was nothing there.  Democrats need to learn how to change the narrative or hire folks to help them drive the story as opposed to letting the GOP continue to do so and use simplified loaded language because no one pay's attention to the details.  

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deech

deech 2402

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19 minutes ago, Nivek said:

The Democrats need to keep this in the NEWS nationally.  The GOP kept having multiple bullshit hearings about Benghazi and there was nothing there.  Democrats need to learn how to change the narrative or hire folks to help them drive the story as opposed to letting the GOP continue to do so and use simplified loaded language because no one pay's attention to the details.  

Pelosi should have had AOC on the news repeatedly the week before impeachment calling out Trump, intentionally goading him, and then let the news coverage/House managers handle the majority of the publicity while they were presenting their case.  Maybe make an occasional tweet calling Trump out, etc.  Then she should have gone bat shit crazy again after the House Managers rested.  Then openly mocked the R's case and kept calling Trump a coward about being scared of documents and Clinton at least gave documents.  Etc.  

I doubt it changes much of anything, but its hard not to think she could have baited the Dotard into something.  

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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26 minutes ago, Nivek said:

The Democrats need to keep this in the NEWS nationally.  The GOP kept having multiple bullshit hearings about Benghazi and there was nothing there.  Democrats need to learn how to change the narrative or hire folks to help them drive the story as opposed to letting the GOP continue to do so and use simplified loaded language because no one pay's attention to the details.  

There's every reason to believe they will.  There are 6 House committees involved in the impeachment inquiry.  Intel and Judiciary moved on the Ukraine whistleblower case out of real urgency.  Ukraine president Zelensky was booked to make a statement about opening an investigation into the Biden family in a CNN interview when the news broke about Trump's 'perfect' call.

Some evidence won't incrementally increase until this summer, like Trump tax returns and Deutsche Bank financials related to the House investigation into Trump money laundering.  Other matters like the Mueller grand jury materials and compelling former WH counsel McGahn, and hence others, to testify amidst bogus claims of "absolute immunity" could be on deck:

Pelosi has this set up as a drawn out match between a rat and a boa.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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The wild card right now is Lev Parnas. 

 

I'm skeptical of the supposed legitimacy of the hit planned for our ambassador Yovanovitch.  However, when you think about the importance to a high level Putin mobster like Firtash of having anti-corruption champion Yovanovitch offed, I can start to see how Trump could get set up as the one who ordered it using an iPhone recording by Fruman and Parnas.  Firtash/Putin would be the ones able to pull it off, then threaten to pin it on Donald.  Recall that weird American dude supposedly involved in tracking Yovanovitch's movements who Parnas laughed off and said was maintenance boozer?  He wasn't a killer, rather potential patsy.  With their demonstrated recording abilities used on our own POTUS, Parnas likely has enough to detonate Trump and any number of notable GOP into orbit.  Parnas to Maddow: "Everyone is in the loop."  But Parnas and his bosses would rather use that leverage to protect their own interests.  And with a deal from Trump/Barr, Parnas would likely be a good soldier and go to prison for a few years with his current light and limited charges in exchange later for a handsome reward for protecting his billionaire employers from further sanctions and international isolation, if not prison.

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Mrs Whiggins

Mrs Whiggins 13050

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Setting aside Parnas for a moment, consider the case of his partner Igor. He has been rather quiet throughout this process. His lawyer is the same one who represent(s) Manafort. If he is acting as a proxy, it may be to a different oligarch altogether. During his divorce hearing back in 2018, his wife's lawyer hired a forensic accountant and stated that his deposits far exceeded his reported earnings. Not all that unusual in a divorce hearing, but in the charges that Parnas and Fruman faced it was discovered that $21 million passed through FD Import & Export over the past three years and that there were substantial financial resources that Fruman didn't disclose to authorities. I've heard his English isn't as good as Lev's, but he has to have had a phone so who is sitting on it?

Will Sargeant be subpoenaed in a later investigation?

What about Correria? He was trying to leave the country as well. What's his story? He was listed as the secretary on Parnas Holdings back in 2012, so what gives? Why don't the media talk about him and Kukushkin who was the fourth man charged.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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Same story, different headline:

What timing.  It has the effect of now putting the Senate on trial.  I can imagine Bolton waiting long enough to at least to see how the Senate GOP would vote on evidence and how Trump's defense would handle their turn.  He may have observed the depth and scale of the coverup and decided it was better to pull the first pin and roll it right under the chairs of Senate GOP.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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^^^ Bolton knows first hand that Trump is no Republican - that he’s a mobster using the power of his office to make personal side deals for unfettered power and profit.

Bolton isn’t down with that.  Seems like now he’s boxed in Senators to fold or show their true hand to the public.

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9974

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Bolton is a neocon down to his bones. Neocon first above all else.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1685063,00.html

Quote

Bolton emerges as an outspoken unilateralist and an opponent of treaties and international institutions ranging from the Kyoto climate convention to the International Court of Criminal Justice. And he has been a vocal opponent, both inside and outside the Administration, of negotiations with North Korea and Iran over their nuclear programs. 

Bolton's outspoken policy views have long been familiar, but what's most interesting about his new book is the sheer enthusiasm with which he has adopted the mantle of the most vocal neoconservative critic of the Bush Administration's foreign policy, only months after resigning from the Bush team when the Senate for the second time refused to confirm his nomination to the U.N. post. 

Bolton accuses the Administration of laxity in dealing with a nuclear-armed North Korea and an Iran intent on obtaining the bomb, not to mention its efforts to arrange a Middle East peace conference. But implicit in Bolton's bomb-throwing is a startling admission: that his never-ending battle against "pragmatists" and those less ideologically committed inside the most conservative administration in decades has been lost. In an interview with TIME, Bolton said: "Secretary Condoleezza Rice is the dominant voice on national security and there is no one running even a close second; her ascendancy is undisputed." 

So where does that leave Bolton allies like Cheney and his hard-line advisers, and the few remaining neocons scattered through the national security bureaucracy? "You will never know what the VP's exact interaction with the President is," says Bolton, "But the VP is still closer to the President's basic instincts than anyone else." Bolton's explanation for the shift in White House policy: "The President may be distracted by the Iraq war or other events... but there's no doubt that the President has moved heartbreakingly away from his own deepest impulses on the three principal issues of controversy (North Korea, Iran and Middle East peace); what is happening now is contrary to his basic instincts." 

On Iran, Bolton says former Secretary of State Colin Powell was too intent on mollifying U.S. allies like France, Britain and Germany. This caused Powell to offer Iran too many "carrots" — trade and commercial inducements — if Tehran would rein in its pursuit of atomic materials. To a large degree Rice, in Bolton's view, perpetuated this strategy even though, he believes, there is almost no chance that Iran will give up its nuclear ambitions. As a result, he says, the U.S. has wasted time on "four and half years of failed diplomacy" indulging Iran with unnecessarily accommodationist negotiations, a period Iran has used to advance its nuclear acquisitions and research. 

On North Korea, Bolton cites (unconfirmed) reports of the Hermit Kingdom's collaboration with Syria on a secret nuclear facility as evidence that the denuclearization deal between the U.S. and North Korea is not working. Talks with North Korea continue, he notes, and the U.S. looks set to invite Syria to its Middle East peace conference later this month. Uncomfortable issues are not being raised, Bolton charges, for fear of disrupting negotiations that he sees as pointless to begin with.

So what are the prospects for a return to the muscular unilateralism that Bolton favors? "There's a possibility that events in the external world will validate our position and give the President a means to return to his gut," the former U.N. ambassador told TIME. "But until and unless external events prove that current policies are on the wrong track, there is no countervailing or obvious force inside this administration that is going to produce a course correction. "

 

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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2 minutes ago, Pasken said:

 

Again, Bolton making his move only after Senate GOP committed to their coverup in the trial fucks them.  I guess they thought he was content to sit on it and they’d deal with it down the line long after this phase was over with.  Senate now stuck without any excuse for not addressing this damning direct inculpatory evidence in the trial.  Cheers.

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Pasken

Pasken 1312

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6 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Again, Bolton making his move only after Senate GOP committed to their coverup in the trial fucks them.  I guess they thought he was content to sit on it and they’d deal with it down the line long after this phase was over with.  Senate now stuck without any excuse for not addressing this damning direct inculpatory evidence in the trial.  Cheers.

Disagree. This is really the perfect time for this to come out from Bolton. 

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Pasken

Pasken 1312

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1 minute ago, triplehorn said:

Why ?

Because Trump and co doesn't have time to spin this and make up some lie that fits arounds this. They already committed to a defense that is on record and they can't change it. It's also less time for GOP senators to find some bullshit reason not to call him.  There is so much stuff already on the record that would be such a bigger deal if it came out dramatically in terms of timing like this.  

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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We agree on it.  It’s what I was getting at above.  Senate GOP stepped in the box by committing to coverup in the trial and Bolton pulled the pin.  How much Bolton really has it in for others, and for whom, remains to be seen.  But the timing of this move is a double barrel blow impacting Trump and Senate GOP.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19570

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3 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

We agree on it.  It’s what I was getting at above.  Senate GOP stepped in the box by committing to coverup in the trial and Bolton pulled the pin.  How much Bolton really has it in for others, and for whom, remains to be seen.  But the timing of this move is a double barrel blow impacting Trump and Senate GOP.

What impact do you think it will have?

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13743

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Bolton ups the pressure on the 4 gop senators potentially thinking bout allowing witnesses.  The house managers are saying trump illegally withheld aid to investigate Biden. Then presidents lawyers are saying that he didn’t do that.  Bolton’s book sounds like it confirms trump saying exactly what the house managers alleged.

now even if Bolton somehow testifies, it doesn’t mean trump is being convicted because this is a political not criminal trial but it should help to shift public opinion even a bit more against trump. 

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What impact do you think it will have?

Not seismic.  More of a withering effect.  Lying and bullshitting -convincingly -takes a toll over time.  Kind of like how long it takes for public opinion to sustainably turn.  Slow steady force can move huge things.  Trump has been doing it from Day 1, but his severe personality disorder is like a reptilian drive.  Now with this Bolton drop, the GOP Senate has entered the ring to have their endurance tested in the public eye.

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Doc Sam Beckett

Doc Sam Beckett 5908

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12 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Beware of opponents bearing gifts. And remember Biden led the 2005 charge in the Senate to block Bolton from being confirmed to the US Ambassador to the UN. He was later given the spot in a recess appointment. 

Neocons love revenge - a dish best served cold. 

 

No shit. My dream is neither Donald nor Biden are politically relevant after the dust clears on this three ring circus. 

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Captainant

Captainant 28601

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21 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Beware of opponents bearing gifts. And remember Biden led the 2005 charge in the Senate to block Bolton from being confirmed to the US Ambassador to the UN. He was later given the spot in a recess appointment. 

Neocons love revenge - a dish best served cold. 

Wouldn't a traditional neocon fucking hate trump and be motivated to take him down?

Tarrifs and isolationism aren't exactly neocon values lol

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pyrohornIII

pyrohornIII 4847

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6 hours ago, deech said:

Pelosi should have had AOC on the news repeatedly the week before impeachment calling out Trump, intentionally goading him, and then let the news coverage/House managers handle the majority of the publicity while they were presenting their case.  Maybe make an occasional tweet calling Trump out, etc.  Then she should have gone bat shit crazy again after the House Managers rested.  Then openly mocked the R's case and kept calling Trump a coward about being scared of documents and Clinton at least gave documents.  Etc.  

I doubt it changes much of anything, but its hard not to think she could have baited the Dotard into something.  

 A concerted effort to make Trump a laughingstock would really get under his skin. The discovery of vids of some of these R senators laughing about him might tip the whole thing, pushing him to do something brazen and stupid.  Moreso that normal, I mean.   Just change the nuclear codes first.  

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Pasken

Pasken 1312

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13 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

a shocking revelation containing no actual new information. 

everything he’s saying is something we already knew or just assumed.

pretty sad really. 

I'm willing to bet Bolton also links certain other foreign policy decisions to his business interests.  

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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1 hour ago, henrygandorf said:

a shocking revelation containing no actual new information. 

everything he’s saying is something we already knew or just assumed.

pretty sad really. 

 It's clear that Bolton is a huge foot in the door that opens to a whole lot of other highly problematic deals if he testifies.  One of the potentially huge stories we know next to nothing about relates to Trump/Rudy clients involved in Ukraine energy.  This is where Rick Perry comes in including those American energy folks sent over to get involved.  Ukraine energy corruption Is where Dimitri Firtash intersects with the story.  Firtash wants his US extradition case dropped (Barr) and unfettered access to Ukraine energy through corrupt means (no Yovanovitch).  Trump wants to discredit the Mueller investigation (Firtash w dirt on Weissmann), discredit Biden (no Yovanovitch/Zelensky announce investigation), and likely find a side deal to get a cut of corrupt Ukraine energy profits, i.e "everyone is in the loop."  

However, it seems like Pompeo's role and interests likely don't align exactly with Rudy's and Trump's even though he was aware.  That's why this bit about Bolton's discourse with Pompeo could be so illuminating.  That Bolton/Pompeo NYT paragraph posted above offers a new new slice of the prism.  

 

Edited by triplehorn
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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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How about this:

"Mr. Bolton also said that after the president’s July phone call with the president of Ukraine, he raised with Attorney General William P. Barr his concerns about Mr. Giuliani, who was pursuing a shadow Ukraine policy encouraged by the president, and told Mr. Barr that the president had mentioned him on the call. A spokeswoman for Mr. Barr denied that he learned of the call from Mr. Bolton; the Justice Department has said he learned about it only in mid-August."

Realize that as the McGahn case works it way through the courts, if it's found he can be compelled to testify, it's going to envelope all these other players avoiding House subpoenas.  So we should expect the House will be having a future hearing with Bolton regardless of this impeachment trial and we'll likely be getting into a lot of other stuff that is hinted about in tonight's NYT article, i.e. the energy piece, Bill fucking Barr, and who knows what else.

But man, I want to see Barr turning with a spit.

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triplehorn

triplehorn 2664

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Important context from the NYT article: the material was likely leaked to NYT by the WH as claimed today by Bolton's attorney:

Quote

Mr. Bolton’s lawyer blamed the White House for the disclosure of the book’s contents. “It is clear, regrettably, from the New York Times article published today that the pre-publication review process has been corrupted and that information has been disclosed by persons other than those properly involved in reviewing the manuscript,” the lawyer, Charles J. Cooper, said Sunday night.

He said he provided a copy of the book to the White House on Dec. 30 — 12 days after Mr. Trump was impeached — to be reviewed for classified information, though, he said, Mr. Bolton believed it contained none.

The submission to the White House may have given Mr. Trump’s aides and lawyers direct insight into what Mr. Bolton would say if he were called to testify at Mr. Trump’s impeachment trial. It also intensified concerns among some of his advisers that they needed to block Mr. Bolton from testifying, according to two people familiar with their concerns.

[...]

Since Mr. Bolton’s statement, White House advisers have floated the possibility that they could go to court to try to obtain a restraining order to stop him from speaking. Such an order would be unprecedented, but any attempt to secure it could succeed in tying up his testimony in legal limbo and scaring off Republican moderates wary of letting the trial drag on when its outcome appears clear.

That last part I bolded?  House investigations aren't ending after this impeachment for abuse and obstruction.  Bolton's value as a witness for House testimony doesn't evaporate with Senate acquittal in this impeachment.  That, and it reveals the WH , Barr, Pompeo, Mulvaney etc. are scared shitless about what Bolton could say.

 

 

Edited by triplehorn
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