Killers of the Flower Moon - Scorsese, Dicaprio, De Niro - 10.20.2023 release

[chainsaw 9872]

32 minutes ago, YChang said:

one of the criticism from some of them was not focusing the story on Mollie.

I sort of had the same problem with the movie (which overall I loved).

Spoiler

She was to me the most interesting character from the get-go, only for her to become ill, bedridden, passive. She was amazing in the role, even in the bedridden scenes, but I felt like we were missing out. They didn't do enough to emphasize that she was the driving force behind the investigations.

After some reflection though, it's not like the writers or Scorsese could change what had actually happened to her. At most they could have taken some creative license with dream sequences, or fleshed out the DC trip, which would have added runtime to an already obscenely long (by 2023 standards) film.

If this had been a limited series they might have been able to do more with her as a character, but I also believe many of the more interesting scenes and individual shots wouldn't have been possible. The pacing of a TV show, even when it's prestige quality, doesn't lend itself to those creative decisions in the same way as movies do. I'd still love to have seen this as a limited series, and while I believe it would have been Emmy caliber, it would have come out much differently (in some better ways, in some worse ways).

See the movie.

[mchookem 16338]

also understand and can empathize with Devery's perspective, she's certainly not wrong. however...if not for Scorcese making this film nobody would even know about this tragedy at this point. i mean yeah, there are books, but it's not like the majority of Americans read 😜 

i just happened to read it 4 years ago b/c i came across it in APL...but literally everyone i talked to about it in the lead up to the movie release had never heard anything about it. i think Scorcese deserves some credit for bringing the story to the forefront of the American psyche, as it is truly a horrifying and deserved telling. 

i'd like to see a similar treatment of the Mountains Meadow massacre.  

[Hank Kingsley 20986]

This is a great press conference/interview with Scorcese, Leo, DeNiro, Gladstone, and Chief Standing Bear 

 

[UTexasFight 9507]

On 10/18/2023 at 11:22 AM, BigOrange1 said:

my wife is super pregnant and is scheduled to be induced on tuesday.  think i'm gonna try and see this on sunday morning but am slightly worried i'll get a call/text that we have to go to the hospital at some point during the movie.

Always remember the Mueller Alamo.

no reception there so you can’t be interrupted. 

 

[Aqua Buddha 14598]

Just saw it.  This is one of those movies that you’re supposed to like it but it’s just not that good.  It’s mostly Leo brooding and neither him and especially DeNiro are believable as characters from the Wild West.  (DeNiro as an Oklahoma cattle rancher?  No.)

Last hour was way too long.  Movie should have been 2.5 hours.  The last 30 minutes alone were do we go to court or not.  (Narrator: they went to court.)

It’s a good story but the story tells itself.  This has more in common with the Irishman than anything.

He’s right in that people will watch a 12 hour Netflix season so what is 4 hours?  However, constraints mandate creativity and as a director/writer, your creativity should allow you to tell a story in 2 to 2.5 hours.  

[UTexasFight 9507]

Really dug the soundtrack/score.

and learned something new about Robbie Robertson having a long career working with Scorsese.

and not on the soundtrack but enjoyed Scorsese going back to The Blues documentary/series and including Blind Willie Johnson- Dark was the night (cold was the ground) in its entirety

[GhostOfTomJoad 9339]

Next motherfucker who misspells "Scorsese" is getting negged. There's only one 'c' in his last name, slapdicks. Put some respect on it.

[GreenspointTexas 9662]

At this point, I still havent seen a single movie on any streaming service that I was like “damn, this is a fantastic movie”

[LonghornSean 4008]

4.5 stars. Given it's length I wouldn't rush out to see it again, but incredible filmmaking.

 

The portrayal of Molly's mom passing away was just brilliant, and something very few directors would even try. Also thought the epilogue/coda of the film was incredibly unique and impactful.

[mchookem 16338]

On 10/25/2023 at 7:44 AM, Hank Kingsley said:

This is a great press conference/interview with Scorcese, Leo, DeNiro, Gladstone, and Chief Standing Bear 

 

noticed he introduced all the white men as 'Monsieur' so-n-so, the Osage gentleman as 'Chief', and she was just 'Lily Gladstone'. 

maybe i've just grown too 'tuned in' or sensitive bc of the subject matter here, but that stood out right at the beginning. 

i think slorch and others may have expected and would have preferred the 'original' version of the story that Scorsese imagined. i have no doubt it would have been excellent, maybe even a better 'movie'. but it wouldn't have been the right story. this is the story that needed to be told.

Lily said it very eloquently... we needed these specific voices that are HUGE and respected and command attention from the world (Scorsese but also DiCaprio, Deniro) to get people to even pay attention and learn about this, to remedy "why the hell does everybody not know this story??"

Edited October 31, 2023 by mchookem

[Neonmoon 38129]

On 10/30/2023 at 10:20 AM, GreenspointTexas said:

At this point, I still havent seen a single movie on any streaming service that I was like “damn, this is a fantastic movie”

All Quiet on the Western Front, Beasts of No Nation, Marriage Story, Roma, Sound of Metal

[4th&Five 41565]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

All Quiet on the Western Front, Beasts of No Nation, Marriage Story, Roma, Sound of Metal

CODA was great. 
 

Saw it tonight. My wife and I really enjoyed it. Pretty much everyone was great. Enjoyed seeing all the musicians in it. I knew about Isbell and Sturgill but it was cool to see Terry Allen and Jo Harvey and also Jack White. 

[Pokoloco 1281]

It was a great piece of art (douchey, I know.. but it was).  Good reminder of how evil humans can be.. and this entire state was founded and run by absolute scumbags.

[Pokoloco 1281]

yes, the epilogue/coda was brilliant.

(sorry again for the douche-ocity)

[SamsCorner 395]

5 hours ago, Pokoloco said:

It was a great piece of art (douchey, I know.. but it was).  Good reminder of how evil humans can be.. and this entire state was founded and run by absolute scumbags.

Outcasts, outlaws and poor immigrants.

[BornOrange 1441]

On 10/30/2023 at 7:07 AM, GhostOfTomJoad said:

Next motherfucker who misspells "Scorsese" is getting negged. There's only one 'c' in his last name, slapdicks. Put some respect on it.

And anyone who uses an "r" in his name is continuing a repression against Italians similar to the Okies against the Osage.

Scozzese is to Scorsese as Andolini is to Corleone.

[Deej 76842]

2 hours ago, BornOrange said:

And anyone who uses an "r" in his name is continuing a repression against Italians similar to the Okies against the Osage.

Scozzese is to Scorsese as Andolini is to Corleone.

 

[Pokoloco 1281]

On 11/1/2023 at 6:42 PM, SamsCorner said:

Outcasts, outlaws and poor immigrants.

It was the Florida of the early 20th century.

[Guadaloopy 10977]

Going to see this in about four hours.   Guess I should stop liquid intake about now.  

[BigOrange1 6442]

i finally got to see this and thought it was really good, but agree with some of the comments that it was almost made in a similar manner to a documentary as opposed to a work of fiction (which seeing as how the source material is non-fiction, seems like the right decision).  but i would agree that it is likely not the movie that scorsese set out to make intitially.  and it definitely wasn't the best performance of leo's career (wolf of wall street and once upon a time in hollywood were easily better performances off the top of my head).  i'm glad i saw it and i'm sure i'll watch it again at some point in the future, but it left me wanting just a bit in a way i wasn't anticipating after reading the book several years ago.

i was super impressed with jason isbell's acting abilities.  the scene with him and leo was outstanding.  wasn't expecting him to be that good of an actor.

[PilotsError 2307]

This movie hasn't had nearly the cultural conversation I was expecting.  It came out, got praised for forty eight hours and then it was gone.  This thread was on page two quick.  Kind of a dud until Oscar season.  

[956 Worldwide 34728]

On 10/24/2023 at 7:04 PM, YChang said:

I can understand her frustration and criticisms. And it will definitely be interesting as time passes to read other perspectives about this movie, especially from Osage/Native American scholars. From what I understand, Scorsese worked closely with the Osage community on this film, and one of the criticism from some of them was not focusing the story on Mollie. I wonder if part of that is just the amount of trust already established between Scorsese and DiCaprio. 

Devery Jacobs has a platform and experience now. It would be cool to see her partner or help tell this story as well. 

Almost all of Scorsese’s movies are about forcing the viewer to confront themselves.  That’s especially true in this movie. The Osage didn’t need to be confronted with themselves.

The scene at the end where Ernest, who we almost come to believe loves his wife (and he may believe it), is confronted by her and lies to her face? Worth the price of admission. He’s a stand-in for Americans, all of us, who think we “got out from under it.” 

[YChang 3455]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The Osage didn’t need to be confronted with themselves.

Apologies but help me understand your response but I don't think that's the point of Devery Jacobs and other's criticism. It's more that creatively and impact-wise the story should have been told from Mollie's point of view. Not so much about forcing viewers to confront themselves. 

[956 Worldwide 34728]

1 minute ago, YChang said:

Apologies but help me understand your response but I don't think that's the point of Devery Jacobs and other's criticism. It's more that creatively and impact-wise the story should have been told from Mollie's point of view. Not so much about forcing viewers to confront themselves. 

I think what I’m saying is that while Mollie’s story is one that would be great to be told— it’s not one that Scorsese can, or should be doing. Scorsese is saying “we’re the bad guys.” 

[UpperWestside 6170]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think what I’m saying is that while Mollie’s story is one that would be great to be told— it’s not one that Scorsese can, or should be doing. Scorsese is saying “we’re the bad guys.” 

I am okay with Scorsese doing this because we need to be confronted regularly about the atrocities committed by Americans from earlier generations. The more the merrier on this stuff. 

[956 Worldwide 34728]

26 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I am okay with Scorsese doing this because we need to be confronted regularly about the atrocities committed by Americans from earlier generations. The more the merrier on this stuff. 

I loved the movie, so I agree. Not quite peak Scorsese like Goodfellas but still at the top of his game.

I am here to defend Brendan Fraser’s performance.  His lawyer was playing a character himself in every scene he appeared in— and that character was meant to chew scenery, the whole point was to make a scene and browbeat rubes like Ernest. You can see it in the courtroom, immediately after his outburst and the resulting uproar (what he wanted) he sits down cool as ice and whispers to Hale.  He nailed it. 

[The Dude 1246]

for such a long movie, there isnt a lot of intrigue or suspense to it

[billfromlaketravis 11519]

For the very lazy, any projected timelines for an Apple TV+ release?

[atomheartbevo 89735]

On 10/30/2023 at 9:20 AM, GreenspointTexas said:

At this point, I still havent seen a single movie on any streaming service that I was like “damn, this is a fantastic movie”

Not even PornHub?

On 11/20/2023 at 1:22 PM, PilotsError said:

This movie hasn't had nearly the cultural conversation I was expecting.  It came out, got praised for forty eight hours and then it was gone. 

It had the misfortune of coming out around the time buzz for The Iron Claw started building.

[atomheartbevo 89735]

 

On 10/25/2023 at 8:44 AM, Hank Kingsley said:

This is a great press conference/interview with Scorcese, Leo, DeNiro, Gladstone, and Chief Standing Bear 

 

Never realized how much Robert De Niro looks like Lily Gladstone and Chief Standing Bear looks like Martin Scorsese.

[atomheartbevo 89735]

On 10/24/2023 at 11:31 PM, mchookem said:

...if not for Scorcese making this film nobody would even know about this tragedy at this point. i mean yeah, there are books, but it's not like the majority of Americans read 😜 

It was stunning how many people didn't know about the Tulsa Massacre until the Watchmen TV series came out on HBO.

['stache 21823]

Finally saw it and liked it a lot, but I have some thoughts and criticisms. First, I don’t think it was too long, so no criticism there.

I think I’m just not a fan of Leo when they force him into something more that what he is normally. The underbite was distracting the whole film and some of his lines in that accent were bad.

I also think they made Mollie look really weak and stupid towards the end when they had so much going on in her presence and she seemed to kind of get it but not really. In real life I assume it was more covert and hidden from her before they were caught and arrested. In the film he’s arrested, they know, and she still is in denial. At the time she likely wouldn’t have had much of a voice but they could have portrayed her stronger before the end scene or had it more covert and hidden from her, especially after recovering from the drugging.

Along those lines, I agree with the decision to focus less on Tom White from the book, but agree the focus should have been Mollie and not Ernest. They really tried to paint him as more complex than a bad guy. The book does that too so there’s probably truth to it, but on film it felt off. It also didn’t make sense that they fell in love, she literally only says that he was handsome. Again, the book makes it seem somewhat genuine of a relationship, but it just didn’t feel right on film. I think in real life there was probably far more arranged marriage feel to these inter marriages when everyone knew it was about the money. I just didn’t feel any real sense of romance between them, it felt forced.

Deniro was excellent. Perfect portrayal in my opinion from the book and from what else we know about William Hale. 

Fraser overacted, by a lot. He could portray the drama in far more convincing fashion, in my opinion.

Ultimately, as big as Scorsese is and as good as he is, I don’t like how much focus he got from this, including putting himself in the damn film. He very genuinely worked with the Osage, but they were never going to say no, and there was only so much they could do for him to create a genuine portrayal of the Osage people and the times. It just doesn’t feel like his story to tell. I would have preferred someone like Sterlin Harjo directing or at least having a big co-role in the portrayal. I’m very biased though because I absolutely love Rez Dogs. I think a voice like his would have given a better portrayal of Mollie.

Finally, Lily Gladstone deserves the Oscar, period. I met her at an event here in Tulsa and she doesn’t stand out physically, but she had a presence that was intimidating, in a good way, like being in the presence of royalty. And I hadn’t even seen the film yet (loved her in Rez Dogs though so again some bias). 

So not a perfect film but well done and happy a broad audience gets to know the story.

[billfromlaketravis 11519]

Is this thing ever going to be on Apple TV+?

edit: January 12th

Edited January 6 by billfromlaketravis

[mchookem 16338]

mostly shut out tonight at GGs...but Lily Gladstone won. pretty emotional. 

[ChiTownDoc 21154]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:31 PM, billfromlaketravis said:

Is this thing ever going to be on Apple TV+?

edit: January 12th

Think it deserves a bump with it streaming now.  Took 2 nights and it was perfect doing it that way.  Was very well done imo.  

Pretty sad and emotional, especially being from that bumfuck state and never learning about this or Black Wall Street.

A must watch especially with it on streaming…  A story any American should know.  I’m sure reading the book is better but here we are.  
 

 

 

[hornmpa96 2619]

Finally saw this on Apple+ last night. I’m glad I watched it and know this piece of history. However, I can’t imagine ever watching it again. It’s just too long to watch in a single sitting and there is no real suspense to the movie.

[Eskimohorn 5637]

Think it deserves a bump with it streaming now.  Took 2 nights and it was perfect doing it that way.  Was very well done imo.  

Pretty sad and emotional, especially being from that bumfuck state and never learning about this or Black Wall Street.
A must watch especially with it on streaming…  A story any American should know.  I’m sure reading the book is better but here we are.  
 
 
 

One misstep I saw was the line DeNiro had about people forgetting this incident. And the FBI guys said they’d always remember or something like that.

The book concludes that the American criminal justice system was widely abused to strip people of their rights and property, especially against minorities. This story was not an isolated to Osage County.

[Neonmoon 38129]

I finally saw this on Apple 

In my opinion, it wasn’t particularly noteworthy. It felt hollow. More so, it felt like a vehicle propped up for Leo and Dinero to walk around a bit, sacrificing suspense of the investigation 

[Eskimohorn 5637]

I finally saw this on Apple 
In my opinion, it wasn’t particularly noteworthy. It felt hollow. More so, it felt like a vehicle propped up for Leo and Dinero to walk around a bit, sacrificing suspense of the investigation 

Much like criticism of Oppenheimer of what wasn’t in the movie, sometimes people miss what was in the movie.

Lily Gladstone rightfully was nominated for her powerful performance that spent a great deal of time covering her family’s story, why it happened, and how it happened.

Scorsese did not make this into an FBI thriller. They intentionally avoided making this Mississippi Burning.

[Neonmoon 38129]

5 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

Much like criticism of Oppenheimer of what wasn’t in the movie, sometimes people miss what was in the movie.

Lily Gladstone rightfully was nominated for her powerful performance that spent a great deal of time covering her family’s story, why it happened, and how it happened.

Scorsese did not make this into an FBI thriller. They intentionally avoided making this Mississippi Burning.

Well they intentionally avoided making a good movie, unlike Oppenheimer, which was very good 

[Eskimohorn 5637]

Well they intentionally avoided making a good movie, unlike Oppenheimer, which was very good 

Like I said, plenty of people shared the same type on invalid criticism about Oppenheimer (it should have been). You want an FBI procedural? Make your own movie.

[Reynolds Woodcock 4780]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Well they intentionally avoided making a good movie, unlike Oppenheimer, which was very good 

Sometimes Marty doesn’t cater to the slack jaws among us. Nolan is great at that.

[Neonmoon 38129]

1 hour ago, Eskimohorn said:

Like I said, plenty of people shared the same type on invalid criticism about Oppenheimer (it should have been). You want an FBI procedural? Make your own movie.

Like I said, it wasn't a noteworthy movie. It was rather hollow character study. It's not an invalid criticism. There was a more compelling story to be told in my opinion. It was known rather early in the story that Ernest and Hale were not good people, and there were not particularly interesting developments in their characters after that.

Make my own movie? Calm down, Marty, every movie you make isn't a masterpiece. 

[kevwun 15806]

There isn't a lot of suspense in the book either.  The trial was covered much more thoroughly and there's a lot more backstory which would probably have been hard to do in the movie.  The book is a slow motion car wreck of tragedy.  You largely know what's going to happen and it unfolds in excruciatingly terrible detail.

[Reynolds Woodcock 4780]

I realize Surly isn’t exactly filled to the brim with cinephiles, but claiming that KOTFM “wasn’t a noteworthy movie” is certainly up there with bad takes.

[lateshow 1304]

I also read the book and was eagerly anticipating this movie. I watched it this past weekend. I thought it was good, not great. 

[PilotsError 2307]

17 hours ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

I realize Surly isn’t exactly filled to the brim with cinephiles, but claiming that KOTFM “wasn’t a noteworthy movie” is certainly up there with bad takes.

 

There was zero discussion 48 hours after it came out.  People watched and moved on.  It wasn't noteworthy. 

No one is denying good performances.  

[lateshow 1304]

1 hour ago, PilotsError said:

 

There was zero discussion 48 hours after it came out.  People watched and moved on.  It wasn't noteworthy. 

No one is denying good performances.  

Agreed. Very fine performances. 

[kingkoopa6 8371]

Not a bad flick. Long but an ok long movie. 
 

the feds came in and shut that shit down. 
 

don’t fuck with the feds 
 

 

I chuckled when he said j Edgar Hoover. 
 

I thought of leo 

[Kennythetiger 9395]

15 hours ago, kingkoopa6 said:

Not a bad flick. Long but an ok long movie. 
 

the feds came in and shut that shit down. 
 

don’t fuck with the feds 
 

 

I chuckled when he said j Edgar Hoover. 
 

I thought of leo 

Hey, good to hear from you. How’s the kid??