Houston cost of living more than NYC?

[TwiceHorn 31646]

4 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

You mean you're not a fan of galley kitchens with no kitchen disposals  haha

Actually, I can appreciate a kitchen with an "economical" workspace, provided there is some counterspace.  And could tolerate lack of dispos-all and even possibly dishwasher.  But many of them are disgraces to dorm rooms, even.

[Pig Bellmont 8744]

Just now, FondrenRoad said:

Ok Boomer. It's not about rents. It's about cars. Read the OP again. 

Right. I’m supposed to remove car costs for one city but not the other. And I’m supposed to ignore child care costs, taxes, utilities and grocery costs. And if I do all that I can make an ill informed statement that the cost of living in Houston is equal to NYC. And if I did all that, at least I wouldn’t have spent two days and several posts showing myself to be a condescending moron incapable of reason, and ignorant of real world experiences

[TwiceHorn 31646]

11 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

You also have a lifestyle adjustment.  So yes, you can make NYC on par with Houston, but you have to scale back.  

For instance, self care.  In Houston, I had a place I went to every other week for a mani/pedi, to the same technician for the last 3 years.  It isn't the fanciest, but it is one of the best rated places in Houston.  That would cost be 35 plus 10 tip.  In Manhattan, a similar place starts at 50-60 for both services.  Eyebrow threading, 8-10 in Houston (if you can find it), 22 in NY.  Then things like haircuts.  I had gone to the same guy for 3 years.  I get my hair cut once, maybe twice a year.  You develop trust with your person.  Mine was usually 130-150 all in.  NY, starts at 200-250 and can go on up from there.  

Would you like more examples?  Equinox in Houston, membership is 150-160.  New York, 260.

My pilates studio in Houston was 179 a month for 12 classes per month.  It was within 2 miles of my house.  The cheapest studio I have found in NYC offers 8 classes for 350.

A good massage in Houston, 75.  NYC, starting around 100, so not too bad (finally, something good).  

Could I have lived in NYC cheaper than Houston.  Possibly.  But the life I would have led would be fucking miserable.

Not to mention simply the cost of food and the fact that you can't buy anything in even "grocery store bulk" because you have no place to put it.

Edited January 23, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[FondrenRoad 4378]

Just now, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

One of the guys who works with me lives in Sunnyside.  About half the time it takes him 30-45 minutes.  The other days, hour at best.

Dependent on MTA to get to work is a shitshow.  

And if you are in the loop in Houston, driving isn't too terrible.  I was on the west side of downtown, commuting from the Heights, and most days it would be 20-30 minutes door to door.  

Oh yes, another thing that is cheaper in Houston than Manhattan are Uber and Lyft.

 

Uber is unusable in Manhattan, imo. Can walk faster and takes forever for them to come. I've found it cheap and quick to go between Queens and Brooklyn though. 

The MTA has problems sometimes. Overall, it's pretty reliable though.  What about those days in Houston when someone has a wreck?  Do those count in your analysis?

[elfenix 34364]

19 hours ago, Zwylde said:

The article from Reason that I posted points this out.  The reason that the metro pass in NYC is so cheap is cause its subsidized by resident taxes that the TM article fails to address.

the reason article takes issue with not counting subsidies for transit users but doesn't bother counting subsidies for car users.  it's bullshit too. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Right. I’m supposed to remove car costs for one city but not the other. And I’m supposed to ignore child care costs, taxes, utilities and grocery costs. And if I do all that I can make an ill informed statement that the cost of living in Houston is equal to NYC. And if I did all that, at least I wouldn’t have spent two days and several posts showing myself to be a condescending moron incapable of reason, and ignorant of real world experiences

Yes you are supposed to remove car cost because cars are an unneeded luxury item in NYC, but an absolute necessity in Houston. None of the other costs are being ignored by the article. Read it. 

My day care was 175 a week until universal pre K age (free).  What does day care cost down there? Or pre-K?  After school care is free too though not quite universal yet. None of this is even income tested anymore. 

And you did show yourself to be a condescending moron for 2 days. And a fuckstick to boot. Remember, youre the asshole who is in disagreement with the OP, not me. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Not to mention simply the cost of food and the fact that you can't buy anything in even "grocery store bulk" because you have no place to put it.

Tell that to Costco. Their NYC stores are booming. 

[huge 3796]

10 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Tell that to Costco. Their NYC stores are booming. 

respond to my post

[TwiceHorn 31646]

7 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Tell that to Costco. Their NYC stores are booming. 

I honestly don't know how you do Costco without a car.  Maybe split shit up in the parking lot and put it in backpacks or little buggies.

[ZB'Tejas 594]

23 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

River Oaks is equivalent to Manhattan. 

 

Are you still arguing over the article comparing Houston costs to NYC or something else? It sounds like desirable areas in NYC cost north of 1M to buy however there are areas that can be significantly cheaper than that. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

Cars are not an absolute necessity in many parts of Houston. You can make do without them and not just inside the loop but pretty much anywhere within walking / biking distance to the bus lines, unless you live in Katy and work in Cypress or something like that. I had a job that allowed me to arrive at work looking sweaty, and I rode my bike to work from Stella Link @ Bellaire and later w. 11th @ TC Jester -- an hour or less door-to-desk at both houses, with the added benefit that I ended up back at my HS playing weight.  I didn't need a car but I had one -- only used it for out of the ordinary trips and major shopping hauls. (Which could be Uber runs today.)

Unless you work in some business where you need an impressive ride, you can live without a car payment, too. Save up 5 or ten K and pay cash for a hooptie. 

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Penelope nailed it when it comes to how much more expensive every day services or items are compared. What wasn't mentioned was grocery shopping. The regular supermarkets like Gristedes suck. You are forced to shop at Whole Foods to get a good quality selection of meat, veggies, bread, etc. Having no car means buying smaller portions/amounts so you can carry them home more and shopping more frequently. That adds a lot to the cost versus going to HEB and not having to worry about fitting in a 24 pack bottle of Ozarka or 4 packages of chicken breast in to your car. Whole Paycheck is expensive anywhere. Doubly so in New York. Compare Trader Joe's pricing in Houston vs. NYC.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Iconoclast Texan

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 hour ago, huge said:

Ok so if I want a house with a real yard what's the comparison in NY Metro?  What the article doesn't address are preferences.

What if I want 4 or 5 bedrooms?

Seems like yes, you CAN make NYC area on par with Houston if you rig up the constraints.  But no where can you get a 3000-4000 sq foot house for 500k.  Which is what people move to Houston for I guess.

 

Also I should probably say here that I live in a 100 year old 1400 sq foot house that is likely closer to NYC price per foot.  So I don't really have a strong preference towards what I mention above

Zillow, house for sale, Teaneck, NJ for starters. try Basking Ridge too.  There are loads of towns just like them in NJ too. Long Island and upstate have some also. 

And yes, a yard in Manhattan will cost you a fortune. The entire point I've been making is this. Manhattan prices are not indicative of the overall area. It's great that everyone here only wants to live in Manhattan, but it isn't comparable to the whole of Houston. 

[ZB'Tejas 594]

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19173]

Zillow, house for sale, Teaneck, NJ for starters. try Basking Ridge too.  There are loads of towns just like them in NJ too. Long Island and upstate have some also. 
And yes, a yard in Manhattan will cost you a fortune. The entire point I've been making is this. Manhattan prices are not indicative of the overall area. It's great that everyone here only wants to live in Manhattan, but it isn't comparable to the whole of Houston. 

A yard within NYC is going to cost you a fortune. That is the issue. You are talking about distant suburbs with long commutes. FYI, Metro North and Jersey transit are additional dollars. How about we stick to city limits vs. City limits comparison to compare apples to apples.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

8 minutes ago, ZB'Tejas said:

Assuming you're working in Manhattan the chokepoints with the bridges and tunnels are the killer for commuting versus dealing with I-45 or Hardy Toll Road traffic coming to downtown from the Woodlands for example.

[Iceman 2728]

The bridge/ tunnel tolls are expensive AF too.

 

LOLz at the emotion in this thread defending their side of the math.  I'm glad in the end, we can fucking live where we want to, within reason.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Iceman

[MNLonghornFUKM 8835]

Seriously, though, Brooklyn is gentrifying, even the Bronx and Harlem and every place I look is expensive and tiny.  And old and kind of decrepit.
Where to working people live in NYC proper?  As far as I can tell, you have to get pretty far out on Long Island or north of the city to get toward affordable.
I mean, there's this fucking palace for $549k in Jamaica.  New York that is.

Fuck yea. That might fit in my basement for twice as much...all while looking like Joker jizz with a scenic view of the train

[FondrenRoad 4378]

5 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

12 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Zillow, house for sale, Teaneck, NJ for starters. try Basking Ridge too.  There are loads of towns just like them in NJ too. Long Island and upstate have some also. 
And yes, a yard in Manhattan will cost you a fortune. The entire point I've been making is this. Manhattan prices are not indicative of the overall area. It's great that everyone here only wants to live in Manhattan, but it isn't comparable to the whole of Houston. 

Read more  

A yard within NYC is going to cost you a fortune. That is the issue. You are talking about distant suburbs with long commutes. FYI, Metro North and Jersey transit are additional dollars. How about we stick to city limits vs. City limits comparison to compare apples to apples.

Teaneck is not distant or a long commute. 

City limits to city limits are also not applicable.  Not only is Houston twice the size of NYC and includes distant suburbs, NYC's commercial core is also not in the center of NYC. NJ is directly across the river from Manhattan. 

But if you want to play that game, the answer you are looking for is Staten Island, which is a more difficult commute than NJ. But it offers all the trappings of suburbia at an affordable price within the city limits. You can also look at marine park, floral park, throgs neck. 

Again, you seem to keep sticking with Manhattan as a stand in for NYC as a whole. And now seem to be also trying to ignore urban density as a benefit. Even if you wanted to buy a whole block in Manhattan and tear it all down to put up a couple mcmansions, you wouldn't be allowed to. It also isn't an issue. You desire Manhattan living specifically for this zoning.  And if we flip that script, there isn't a single place in Houston that offers you Manhattan style living at any price. 

[Dahobbs 17717]

31 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Zillow, house for sale, Teaneck, NJ for starters. try Basking Ridge too.  There are loads of towns just like them in NJ too. Long Island and upstate have some also. 

And yes, a yard in Manhattan will cost you a fortune. The entire point I've been making is this. Manhattan prices are not indicative of the overall area. It's great that everyone here only wants to live in Manhattan, but it isn't comparable to the whole of Houston. 

If you're going to compare things, at least compare like to like. For instance, I guess in Houston you could buy a monster house in Sealy for real cheap and then commute. That pretty much has fuck all to do with the price of actually living in Houston. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

22 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Assuming you're working in Manhattan the chokepoints with the bridges and tunnels are the killer for commuting versus dealing with I-45 or Hardy Toll Road traffic coming to downtown from the Woodlands for example.

People that commute from NJ to Manhattan don't drive in. They take trains or express buses with dedicated lanes at the crossings. The cost of parking is outrageous anyway. 

[elfenix 34364]

35 minutes ago, ZB'Tejas said:

is mapfrappe working again?

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

If you're going to compare things, at least compare like to like. For instance, I guess in Houston you could buy a monster house in Sealy for real cheap and then commute. That pretty much has fuck all to do with the price of actually living in Houston. 

Teaneck to Times Square. 13 miles and actually only 25 minutes right now. 40 minutes by train to Penn station. 

Teaneck is about 7 miles from Manhattan, btw. 

Sealy to downtown Houston. 51 miles, 51 minutes right now.

Hackettstown, NJ is a comparable distance to Sealy. It's almost in PA.

I knew Manhattan folks didn't leave the borough much, but I figured they knew where NJ was even if they've never been there.  Teaneck is an inner suburb that is closer than a good portion of Brooklyn and Queens. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19173]

3 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Teaneck to Times Square. 13 miles and actually only 25 minutes right now. 40 minutes by train to Penn station. 

Teaneck is about 7 miles from Manhattan, btw. 

Sealy to downtown Houston. 51 miles, 51 minutes right now.

Hackettstown, NJ is a comparable distance to Sealy. It's almost in PA.

I knew Manhattan folks didn't leave the borough much, but I figured they knew where NJ was even if they've never been there.  Teaneck is an inner suburb that is closer than a good portion of Brooklyn and Queens. 

If I lived in Teaneck NJ, I would have to have a car for my weekends, errands, etc...

Actually, Teaneck is closer to 10 miles from Midtown.  To commute in during rush hour via train is at least an hour.  That is if everything is running smoothly, which to be fair, it rarely does.  You also need to count in that you have to take NJ Transit.

[gmr548 16617]

There's probably something to the idea that the difference isn't as huge as popularly believed. Car-based sprawl, of which the Houston area is obviously an extreme example, is a terribly expensive and inefficient way to build a city and has a lot of costs that people probably aren't used to considering because they're just used to it. Cost of living is also highly individualized.

 

All that said, on balance, Houston is obviously still cheaper for an individual/ family. You could argue that all the subsidy that goes into building the Houston area into the sprawl it's become, as well as the side effects on public health, environmental quality/pollution etc. is more expensive for society on a per person basis than New York. That gets pretty academic though.

 

 

[Dahobbs 17717]

35 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Teaneck to Times Square. 13 miles and actually only 25 minutes right now. 40 minutes by train to Penn station. 

Teaneck is about 7 miles from Manhattan, btw. 

Sealy to downtown Houston. 51 miles, 51 minutes right now.

Hackettstown, NJ is a comparable distance to Sealy. It's almost in PA.

I knew Manhattan folks didn't leave the borough much, but I figured they knew where NJ was even if they've never been there.  Teaneck is an inner suburb that is closer than a good portion of Brooklyn and Queens. 

Sure, now try rush hour. For both, you're looking at ~an hour and half commute.  And that is IF you're allowing the NJ resident a car, which, you know, I thought we weren't. Oh yeah, and the median home price in Sealy is $190,000 according to Zillow. Teaneck you ask? . . . $415,000. Hell, even fucking Hackettstown is $284,000 for the median. For NYC to be cheaper, you'd need to assume zero transportation costs AND assume the person in Houston is driving a $100,000 car. Seems reasonable to you I guess? 

Want to move closer in to Houston? Katie, median home price of $278,000. Sugarland, $310,000. Pearland, $271,000. Humble, $166,000. Hell, the fucking heights median is just over $400,000, and that is in the middle of the city. 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Dahobbs

[clapclapclap 9000]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I honestly don't know how you do Costco without a car.  Maybe split shit up in the parking lot and put it in backpacks or little buggies.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

39 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Sure, now try rush hour. For both, you're looking at ~an hour and half commute.  And that is IF you're allowing the NJ resident a car, which, you know, I thought we weren't. Oh yeah, and the median home price in Sealy is $190,000 according to Zillow. Teaneck you ask? . . . $415,000. Hell, even fucking Hackettstown is $284,000 for the median. For NYC to be cheaper, you'd need to assume zero transportation costs AND assume the person in Houston is driving a $100,000 car. Seems reasonable to you I guess? 

Want to move closer in to Houston? Katie, median home price of $278,000. Sugarland, $310,000. Pearland, $271,000. Humble, $166,000. Hell, the fucking heights median is just over $400,000, and that is in the middle of the city. 

Rush hour from Teaneck is still 40 minutes by train. A little longer by bus. Sealy is probably like 2 hours at rush hour. 

I chose Hackettstown by distance. It's a nice little town though. Go north. Try Poughkeepsie then. Or west to Stroudsburg. 

And again, you aren't making an accurate comparison. We got dragged into this mcmansion and yard talk by a "what if", but that style of living is not really available nor desired in NYC's core, and where it exists, it's being zoned away. I'm pointing out that you can replicate Houston's lifestyle in NYC if you want to at a reasonable price, but not at the core.  You can't replicate the lifestyle of NYC's core anywhere in Houston. The Heights, which keeps being offered as a Manhattan equivalent, has a population density of 5500 per square mile. The Upper East Side? 109,000 per square mile. The Heights doesn't even replicate Sunnyside Queens. 17000 per square mile. Or Fresh Meadows. 18000 per square mile.  Lot, yard size, and square feet aren't relevant. The only equivalence is housing units, which in NYC are smaller and stacked on top of each other. 

Keep in mind that Penelope refuses to look in even those relatively affordable close by neighborhoods because she wants to walk to places in Manhattan. Why we are continuing to talk about suburban detached housing, I don't know. So why don't you find a single Houston house or condo that can give her the Manhattan lifestyle she desires. I get that maybe y'all want to be the only affordable mcmansion in an otherwise dense walkable neighborhood, but that is simply impossible, and it doesn't exist in Houston either. 

 

[huge 3796]

24 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Lot, yard size, and square feet aren't relevant. The only equivalence is housing units, which in NYC are smaller and stacked on top of each other. 

This is the issue.  If you use NYC style living and try to replicate it in Houston you are not far off.  If you take Houston style living and try to replicate it in NYC it costs a fortune.

I live in the city center and my commute is 20 minutes.  For me to get that in NYC it would cost 5x.  That is all I am saying.

[Dahobbs 17717]

22 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Rush hour from Teaneck is still 40 minutes by train. A little longer by bus. Sealy is probably like 2 hours at rush hour. 

I chose Hackettstown by distance. It's a nice little town though. Go north. Try Poughkeepsie then. Or west to Stroudsburg. 

And again, you aren't making an accurate comparison. We got dragged into this mcmansion and yard talk by a "what if", but that style of living is not really available nor desired in NYC's core, and where it exists, it's being zoned away. I'm pointing out that you can replicate Houston's lifestyle in NYC if you want to at a reasonable price, but not at the core.  You can't replicate the lifestyle of NYC's core anywhere in Houston. The Heights, which keeps being offered as a Manhattan equivalent, has a population density of 5500 per square mile. The Upper East Side? 109,000 per square mile. The Heights doesn't even replicate Sunnyside Queens. 17000 per square mile. Or Fresh Meadows. 18000 per square mile.  Lot, yard size, and square feet aren't relevant. The only equivalence is housing units, which in NYC are smaller and stacked on top of each other. 

Keep in mind that Penelope refuses to look in even those relatively affordable close by neighborhoods because she wants to walk to places in Manhattan. Why we are continuing to talk about suburban detached housing, I don't know. So why don't you find a single Houston house or condo that can give her the Manhattan lifestyle she desires. I get that maybe y'all want to be the only affordable mcmansion in an otherwise dense walkable neighborhood, but that is simply impossible, and it doesn't exist in Houston either. 

 

What the fuck does any of this have to do with anything? Yeah, Houston isn't NY and NY isn't Houston. Great. Now that we've established that, if you're attempting to prove that NYC is CHEAPER to live in, then it seems to me that median housing price is the metric you need to start with. And on that metric, you fail miserably. NYC is more expensive. It is more expensive if you look at median residence regardless of property characteristic. And it especially fails if you're looking for residences with similar characteristics (e.g., size, yard, location, etc). 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Dahobbs

[FondrenRoad 4378]

51 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What the fuck does any of this have to do with anything? Yeah, Houston isn't NY and NY isn't Houston. Great. Now that we've established that, if you're attempting to prove that NYC is CHEAPER to live in, then it seems to me that median housing price is the metric you need to start with. And on that metric, you fail miserably. NYC is more expensive. It is more expensive if you look at median residence regardless of property characteristic. And it especially fails if you're looking for residences with similar characteristics (e.g., size, yard, location, etc). 

 

Y'all keep getting confused.  And you're also doing the Pig Belmont thing now where you only talk about housing and ignore transportation. 

Once again, there are other small factors, but this is primarily about HOUSING + TRANSPORTATION COSTS.

This whole thread is based on an article in the Texas Monthly so I don't need to prove anything.  It proves these things.  This article states that Houston is $79 a month cheaper than NYC based on raw numbers, and that NYC is cheaper when factoring in income.  The article states that Houston housing is cheaper.  So congrats on your latest post.  It also states that transportation in NYC is in fact cheaper.  Congrats for completely missing this factor in your latest post.

First, none of you have read this article.  A good half of you don't even seem to realize that an article started this whole discussion.

Second, a bunch of people that lived in Manhattan, but never ventured out of it came in said this is impossible.  I pointed out that NYC is much larger than Manhattan and many parts of it are affordable and don't require cars.  They still continue to equate the two, however.

Second, huge asked about decent sized houses with yards. This brought affordable areas like Teaneck into the conversation.  And this is also where I matched pretty much exact housing prices with Houston.  A bunch of people who refuse to live anywhere but Manhattan also jump in with "yeah, houses and stuff" in neighborhoods they never want to be in because they don't actually want "houses and stuff."

Third, Penelope comes along and insists that all of NYC is astronomically priced because she only wants to live in its most expensive neighborhoods.  During this conversation, most of y'all, Penelope included, seemed to think NJ, Queens, Staten Island, and most of Brooklyn don't exist.  She even countered Teaneck with a "city limits" argument while continuing to forget that Staten Island exists.  Regardless, an equivalence here is that she basically only wants to live in River Oaks, and keeps saying Houston is super expensive because of it.  And that's fine to only want to live in expensive neighborhoods.  It isn't fine to equate the expensive neighborhoods with the whole of a place.  The Heights isn't equivalent to anything in NYC.  There is no suburban density neighborhood near Midtown.  It is somewhat equivalent to quite a few places further out in NJ however, but they lack central proximity.

Fourth, you come along and incorrectly compare Teaneck to Sealy in distance.  I point out a town similar in distance to Sealy.  I wasn't worrying about home value in that town.  You attempted to equate Sealy and that town in value.  I gave you 2 new towns to equate.

Fifth, Pig Belmont doesn't want cars to count as part of cost of living even though they are.

Sixth, are you married?  Kids?  How many cars do you have in your household?  Guess what?  All of them count as a transportation expense.  Read the article.  Because it actually factors that in for both NYC and for Houston.  Houston spends $1152 per household and NYC $832.  This includes Staten Islanders and outer borough cars.  All those single individuals in transit neighborhoods like Penelope who only spend $127.  This even includes all the people who pay for a car but don't need it and barely ever use it, so even Pig Bellmont can't bitch about it.  

Seriously, all the numbers are in the fucking article and in the study it cites.  Read it.

Edited January 23, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[FondrenRoad 4378]

51 minutes ago, huge said:

This is the issue.  If you use NYC style living and try to replicate it in Houston you are not far off.  If you take Houston style living and try to replicate it in NYC it costs a fortune.

I live in the city center and my commute is 20 minutes.  For me to get that in NYC it would cost 5x.  That is all I am saying.

No, you are way far off.  You can't replicate Manhattan style living in Houston at all.  You simply don't have the density for it.  You don't even have the density to replicate Brooklyn style living.  Sure, you can build a Manhattan studio apartment equivalent, but when you go outside you have to get in your car and drive places.  That isn't Manhattan style living.  You need 70,000 people per square mile plus 2 or 3x that in commuters/tourists to bring the retail density required.

And you can certainly replicate Houston style living in the NYC area if you really want to.  It already exists really.  Both NJ and LI have major job centers as well as suburban housing stock.  Stamford, CT even gives you a little small core downtown of commercial density, and a pretty awesome new marina area.  Plenty of people in those areas hardly ever set foot in Manhattan.  However, once again, people simply don't move near Manhattan for that type of lifestyle.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19173]

19 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Y'all keep getting confused.  And you're also doing the Pig Belmont thing now where you only talk about housing and ignore transportation. 

Once again, there are other small factors, but this is primarily about HOUSING + TRANSPORTATION COSTS.

This whole thread is based on an article in the Texas Monthly so I don't need to prove anything.  It proves these things.  This article states that Houston is $79 a month cheaper than NYC based on raw numbers, and that NYC is cheaper when factoring in income.  The article states that Houston housing is cheaper.  So congrats on your latest post.  It also states that transportation in NYC is in fact cheaper.  Congrats for completely missing this factor in your latest post.

First, none of you have read this article.  A good half of you don't even seem to realize that an article started this whole discussion.

Second, a bunch of people that lived in Manhattan, but never ventured out of it came in said this is impossible.  I pointed out that NYC is much larger than Manhattan and many parts of it are affordable and don't require cars.  They still continue to equate the two, however.

Second, huge asked about decent sized houses with yards. This brought affordable areas like Teaneck into the conversation.  And this is also where I matched pretty much exact housing prices with Houston.  A bunch of people who refuse to live anywhere but Manhattan also jump in with "yeah, houses and stuff" in neighborhoods they never want to be in because they don't actually want "houses and stuff."

Third, Penelope comes along and insists that all of NYC is astronomically priced because she only wants to live in its most expensive neighborhoods.  During this conversation, most of y'all, Penelope included, seemed to think NJ, Queens, Staten Island, and most of Brooklyn don't exist.  She even countered Teaneck with a "city limits" argument while continuing to forget that Staten Island exists.  Regardless, an equivalence here is that she basically only wants to live in River Oaks, and keeps saying Houston is super expensive because of it.  And that's fine to only want to live in expensive neighborhoods.  It isn't fine to equate the expensive neighborhoods with the whole of a place.  The Heights isn't equivalent to anything in NYC.  There is no suburban density neighborhood near Midtown.  It is somewhat equivalent to quite a few places further out in NJ however, but they lack central proximity.

Fourth, you come along and incorrectly compare Teaneck to Sealy in distance.  I point out a town similar in distance to Sealy.  I wasn't worrying about home value in that town.  You attempted to equate Sealy and that town in value.  I gave you 2 new towns to equate.

Fifth, Pig Belmont doesn't want cars to count as part of cost of living even though they are.

Sixth, are you married?  Kids?  How many cars do you have in your household?  Guess what?  All of them count as a transportation expense.  Read the article.  Because it actually factors that in for both NYC and for Houston.  Houston spends $1152 per household and NYC $832.  This includes Staten Islanders and outer borough cars.  All those single individuals in transit neighborhoods like Penelope who only spend $127.  This even includes all the people who pay for a car but don't need it and barely ever use it, so even Pig Bellmont can't bitch about it.  

Seriously, all the numbers are in the fucking article and in the study it cites.  Read it.

I read all the articles, so your assumption that I did not read it is WRONG.  As many have pointed out, there is significant fallacy to the argument.  Assuming that the only costs I pay for transportation is 127 is absolutely asinine.  I pay significantly more than that.  That is just the cost of a metro pass.

Further, not including the city and state taxes that highly subsidize the MTA is only part of what is wrong with this article.  

But thanks for playing.

[huge 3796]

6 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

No, you are way far off.  You can't replicate Manhattan style living in Houston at all.  You simply don't have the density for it.  You don't even have the density to replicate Brooklyn style living.  Sure, you can build a Manhattan studio apartment equivalent, but when you go outside you have to get in your car and drive places.  That isn't Manhattan style living.  You need 70,000 people per square mile plus 2 or 3x that in commuters/tourists to bring the retail density required.

And you can certainly replicate Houston style living in the NYC area if you really want to.  It already exists really.  Both NJ and LI have major job centers as well as suburban housing stock.  Stamford, CT even gives you a little small core downtown of commercial density, and a pretty awesome new marina area.  Plenty of people in those areas hardly ever set foot in Manhattan.  However, once again, people simply don't move near Manhattan for that type of lifestyle.

Ok what if I want to live in Brooklyn and want a 1400sq 2/2 that has been redone.  How much does that cost?

I get what you are saying but you are not admitting there is a point to be made about what I just posted.

[Cajun 11757]

Now let's compare and contrast tax burdens living in NYC vs HOU.

Bueller?  Bueller?

[Fudge Nuggets 19239]

2 hours ago, clapclapclap said:

It's a proven scientific fact that your country's ranking on the shithole scale has a direct correlation to the amount of crap the women can carry on their head.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

17 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I read all the articles, so your assumption that I did not read it is WRONG.  As many have pointed out, there is significant fallacy to the argument.  Assuming that the only costs I pay for transportation is 127 is absolutely asinine.  I pay significantly more than that.  That is just the cost of a metro pass.

Further, not including the city and state taxes that highly subsidize the MTA is only part of what is wrong with this article.  

But thanks for playing.

They don't consider taxes for road maintenance and construction either.  And they also don't consider the NYers that get half price metrocards that counteract your tax payment.  Poor Houstonians probably get something similar too.  They don't consider the fact that MTA tolls subsidize the subway either.

What is actually asinine is your continued attempt to change the subject on the fact that you think things are super expensive because you only look at costs in the most expensive parts of the city.  You looked everywhere and there was really nothing at all under a million dollars in a city where the median home sale price is $563,000.  Right.  It took quite a while for you to admit that affordable safe neighborhoods exist, but you just don't want to live in them.  Again, of course expensive neighborhoods are expensive.

We really aren't that far off.  It just isn't as simple as "Houston is so much cheaper because Upper East Side and Williamsburg new construction condos are SO expensive!"  There's a whole city here.  You should visit it sometime.

[Dahobbs 17717]

11 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

They don't consider taxes for road maintenance and construction either.  And they also don't consider the NYers that get half price metrocards that counteract your tax payment.  Poor Houstonians probably get something similar too.  They don't consider the fact that MTA tolls subsidize the subway either.

What is actually asinine is your continued attempt to change the subject on the fact that you think things are super expensive because you only look at costs in the most expensive parts of the city.  You looked everywhere and there was really nothing at all under a million dollars in a city where the median home sale price is $563,000.  Right.  It took quite a while for you to admit that affordable safe neighborhoods exist, but you just don't want to live in them.  Again, of course expensive neighborhoods are expensive.

We really aren't that far off.  It just isn't as simple as "Houston is so much cheaper because Upper East Side and Williamsburg new construction condos are SO expensive!"  There's a whole city here.  You should visit it sometime.

Houston is so much cheaper because the median home price is less than half that number. And the overall tax burden is less. The article was flawed. That doesn't mean Houston is better. But it is cheaper. 

[huge 3796]

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Houston is so much cheaper because the median home price is less than half that number. And the overall tax burden is less. The article was flawed. That doesn't mean Houston is better. But it is cheaper. 

Also, for those that care, half as much gets you twice as big.  Again, if you are into that sort of thing.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19173]

15 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

They don't consider taxes for road maintenance and construction either.  And they also don't consider the NYers that get half price metrocards that counteract your tax payment.  Poor Houstonians probably get something similar too.  They don't consider the fact that MTA tolls subsidize the subway either.

What is actually asinine is your continued attempt to change the subject on the fact that you think things are super expensive because you only look at costs in the most expensive parts of the city.  You looked everywhere and there was really nothing at all under a million dollars in a city where the median home sale price is $563,000.  Right.  It took quite a while for you to admit that affordable safe neighborhoods exist, but you just don't want to live in them.  Again, of course expensive neighborhoods are expensive.

We really aren't that far off.  It just isn't as simple as "Houston is so much cheaper because Upper East Side and Williamsburg new construction condos are SO expensive!"  There's a whole city here.  You should visit it sometime.

I found a house in the Bronx for 600k.  It was a complete gut.  To get it to standard, it would cost me about 200-300k as it needed complete plumbing AND electrical work.  So, I found a house within an hour commute for 900k.  That is one of the only ones I found that did not have an astronomical coop or condo maintenance fee.  

Again, if I wanted to have a long ass commute, which I do not as my time is incredibly valuable, I would go live in NJ or Long Island, or somewhere else, but I would have an hour plus commute which would not just be the cost of my MTA pass AND would most likely need a car.  Net net, Houston is cheaper.   

FYI, I am not poor and I am not going to fucking live like it.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19173]

2 minutes ago, huge said:

Also, for those that care, half as much gets you twice as big.  Again, if you are into that sort of thing.

This.

 

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Houston is so much cheaper because the median home price is less than half that number. And the overall tax burden is less. The article was flawed. That doesn't mean Houston is better. But it is cheaper. 

And this.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19173]

Perhaps they should do a price per sq ft analysis to really get it on par.  But yeah, Fondren doesn't want to have that discussion.  Again, take the 5 boroughs of NYC and compare that to the City Limits in Houston.  You also have to consider the tax burdens of BOTH.  It is also a fallacy to just use median income.  A dollar goes further in Houston (i.e. better purchasing power) than in NYC. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

36 minutes ago, huge said:

Ok what if I want to live in Brooklyn and want a 1400sq 2/2 that has been redone.  How much does that cost?

I get what you are saying but you are not admitting there is a point to be made about what I just posted.

What if I want to live on a 70 acre farm in downtown Dallas?  Its just so expensive over there, right?

Brooklyn is a county with 2.5 million people so you're going to have to be more specific.  Also, 2/2's aren't equivalent as they are rare throughout the area.  The equivalent is a 2/1.  And there is also hardly any stock of 2 bdrm units that are that large.  But Mill Basin has 2-1's for 175 as is and renovated for 250.  It has exactly 0 2-2's.  

You do realize how density works, right?  More people in the same size area. You pay for a smaller unit in a dense area because you enjoy the urban amenities that density offers.  If you want a unit that is out of scale, you either pay more for it (by buying 2 1 bdrm units and merging them for example) or you move to a less dense neighborhood where you don't have urban amenities (like 99% of Houston).

And I get what your saying. The point is that you don't want to live in Brooklyn because you value housing space over walkability.  You'd be okay with being the only huge house in a walkable area, but don't want to pay the amount required to do that.  So this is all academic.  Houston will never have successful mass transit or walkability while it values square feet over either of those things.  NYC will never match Houston in price per square foot while it values transit and walkability over housing unit size.

This article continues to be about housing plus transportation costs.  It continues to not be about comparative dwelling sizes or even total housing cost alone.

You claim to not want to live in Teaneck, but to be frank, Houston is a lot more like Teaneck than it is Manhattan or Brooklyn.

 

[huge 3796]

I never said I didn't want to live in Brooklyn or anywhere else.  Housing in desirable areas in NYC is more expensive than Houston even when factoring in 2 German cars.  There, that is my point.

This whole thing is silly.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

21 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Houston is so much cheaper because the median home price is less than half that number. And the overall tax burden is less. The article was flawed. That doesn't mean Houston is better. But it is cheaper. 

The article specifically states that housing is cheaper in Houston.  Also, the zillow median home sales number I posted includes multifamily sales.  There are far more multifamily buildings in NYC than there are in Houston.

Edited January 23, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[Gene Parmesan 4016]

Square footage is a sacrifice to live in NYC, and Houston doesn't offer anything close to the same lifestyle.  Individual preferences will vary, but you can't ding NYC for size while simultaneously not dinging Houston for not having the lifestyle.  Not that I think NYC is cheaper, but I do agree with FondrenRoad on that point.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

3 minutes ago, huge said:

I never said I didn't want to live in Brooklyn or anywhere else.  Housing in desirable areas in NYC is more expensive than Houston even when factoring in 2 German cars.  There, that is my point.

This whole thing is silly.

Those 2 German cars give you $1000 more per month to spend in NYC when you get rid of them.  For that extra grand, you can find that 2-2 you want in a good neighborhood.

Also, the only real comparison to Manhattan is River Oaks or wherever someone like James Harden lives.  Penelope lives not far from Arod and J-Lo.  I do get that young people don't want to live in River Oaks because there isn't shit to do, but none of the other places in Houston are really comparable.

Penelope and Iconoclast not wanting to live somewhere doesn't equal undesirable.  There are plenty of people in Forest Hills that make a lot more than Penelope does.  Its a family geared environment, has affordable housing as well as "luxury" housing, has express subway service, and has maybe the best overall set of open enrollment public schools in the whole city.  And while it also attracts wealthy single people from LI and the rest of Queens, it doesn't attract wealthy single people from elsewhere who moved to NYC specifically for Manhattan and Manhattan alone unless they have kids. 

Most of the neighborhoods I've been listing were always good and middle class even when the city was going through the shitter in the 80s.  They aren't "cool" though so they've actually had pretty decent price stability over the years.  Which brings up another difference between NYC and Houston.  Pretty much all the pricing increases lately are driven by single people and the schools in newly expensive areas are pretty terrible. In other cities, Houston and NYC suburbs included, good schools are a primary driver of housing value.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

It's bullshit to say Houston doesn't have a few areas where you can have a Manhattan-lite experience. Take a look at all the high-rises and retail all along Post Oak Blvd. Can live in a high-rise apartment on top of a very nice Whole Foods. The area is walkable and a real BRT line which will in essence be no different than high capacity light rail running down the middle. How about on Montrose. Very walkable - can grocery shop at the Disco Kroger and shop and dine to your heart's content. Look at the density of single family stock off W. Gray between Shepherd and Montrose and the new high rise being built next to Brasserie 19.

This is an article from the Kinder Institute at Rice. The highest density neighborhoods in Houston are the ghetto shitholes I mentioned in previous posts. Those aren't applicable for people like us. The ones that apply to our situation have the following:

When we look at the next tier of dense communities—Mid-West, Pecan Park, and Montrose—the realities of what density looks like begins to change. All three communities have around 10,000 people per square mile, comparable to the overall density of Newark, New Jersey. What Taking Stock makes clear, though, is that each of these communities achieves this density in a unique way.

https://kinder.rice.edu/2017/04/17/sure-houston-has-sprawl-but-some-areas-have-east-coast-levels-of-density

[FondrenRoad 4378]

25 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Square footage is a sacrifice to live in NYC, and Houston doesn't offer anything close to the same lifestyle.  Individual preferences will vary, but you can't ding NYC for size while simultaneously not dinging Houston for not having the lifestyle.  Not that I think NYC is cheaper, but I do agree with FondrenRoad on that point.

Fair enough.  Now let's talk about whether Tokyo is actually required to be expensive.

[next2naus 439]

On 1/22/2020 at 12:40 PM, CHIEF said:

One could also assume that most in New York do not own a car due to extensive public transportation. Not having a $600 car payment, auto insurance, and fuel costs would probably bring Houston to a considerably less cost of living.

CHIEF

cabs, car service, montly metrocard, LIRR, MetroNorth, NJT, all that shit cost money to get around. I paid for all that living in the city and I owned cars, which can cost several hundred a month to park and Auto Insurance in NYC ain't cheap.