Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[BrickHorn 18218]

5 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Did that today.  Also with mail I do the same. I open the letters or box in garage. Throw packing away.  Then go in and wash my hands. That way I don't even place the stuff on my counter in the kitchen.  It will never be perfect but as best as I can do.  I feel like a freak doing it. 

I wore nitrile gloves to pump gas the other day.  Felt like a freak, too.  Mostly because the gloves were the only thing I was wearing.  

[Js1 85311]

4 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I wore nitrile gloves to pump gas the other day.  Felt like a freak, too.  Mostly because the gloves were the only thing I was wearing.  

Kinky 

[ztejas 43418]

5 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I wore nitrile gloves to pump gas the other day.  Felt like a freak, too.  Mostly because the gloves were the only thing I was wearing.  

[Js1 85311]

10 minutes ago, dcbc said:

So hypothetically, I get some BBQ.  It's in a container with some paper.  I bring it home, remove it from the packaging, wrap it in foil, toss the packaging in the trash outside, wash hands, spray countertop or other surfaces packaging has touched.  Heat the foil packaged food in a 170 degree oven for 30 minutes.

Yes, it's a lot of trouble, and the food may not be like eating it in the restaurant.  But to what extent have I mitigated the risk with the above procedure?

I write all this with a packer brisket in the fridge that I will smoke before the end of the month.  But I'm curious still.

Just gotta wash your hands in between opening the box and putting it on a plate/in foil. Ideally you get home, wash your hands, grab your plate and then open the box. Avoid going from box to plate to microwave/oven door handle without a wash 

[dcar00 14181]

4 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

I spoke to my dad 2 days ago. He just had golfed in Sun City. He loves that place and is living quite the life there.  I told him, "Dad, I'm super worried.  This virus I can stand as your grandkids will but if you get it I am thinking it will be very bad. I want you to not really go out anymore of you don't have to and just get food delivered.". He agreed and said son don't worry about me.  Now I hope my worst nightmare isn't happening. Let's hope his wife is not COVID-19.  The pneumonia, 102 fever, heachaches with a negative flu test has me freaked out especially with her recent travel. 

it is crazy they won't give her the test without proving a direct contact if she is over 60.  hoping for the best for your family.

[atomheartbevo 89648]

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I’ll believe the feds are planning for worst case when the army shows up in hospital parking lots all over the country and starts assembling their mobile hospitals. 

that might also be when the remaining waterheads realize this is serious. 

they should empty out utmb and assign the staff and supplies in other places, blow up the bridge on their way out, and tell those islanders to have fun at their bars. 

US Navy is activating their hospital ships, one East Coast, the other West.   They are to supplement civilian hospitals, basically the ships (1,000 beds apiece) take on the “normal” hospital ER stuff, while the land-based hospitals take on covid.  

And the states starting to call up National Guard units means the hospitals are not far behind - many of the mobile hospitals are NG or Reserve.  

Edited March 18, 2020 by atomheartbevo

[InkaUtexas 25907]

Just now, atomheartbevo said:

US Navy is activating their hospital ships, one East Coast, the other West.   They are to supplement civilian hospitals, basically the ships (1,000 beds apiece) take on the “normal” hospital ER stuff, while the land-based hospitals take on covid.  

still waiting to hear we are bringing the Bear assets (USAF medical facilities in a box) we have scattered around the Middle East. 

[tx 3 putt 76905]

next 10 days are going to be one hell of a ride 

im still seeing a certain group of 'followers' calling all the closures 'bullshit'. this same group is quick to point out that the flu is much more serious and blaming the media for over hyping the whole situation. 

[MissingInAction 25037]

This shit will wipe Sun City out if it gets even a slight foothold.

[ChiTownDoc 21152]

27 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Did that today.  Also with mail I do the same. I open the letters or box in garage. Throw packing away.  Then go in and wash my hands. That way I don't even place the stuff on my counter in the kitchen.  It will never be perfect but as best as I can do.  I feel like a freak doing it. 

So I get this happy birthday card from Florence Fucking Italy today.  Stamped about 7 days ago from there.  Why in the fuck did they mail this to me?  There’s only one Gucci Garden if anyone wants to verify the humble brag.  The wife was much more like WTF as I just laughed...’happy birthday, american asshole, enjoy this corona!’

Edited March 18, 2020 by ChiTownDoc

[MissingInAction 25037]

Prolly Greenspoint who sent it.

Edited March 18, 2020 by MissingInAction

[InkaUtexas 25907]

4 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

next 10 days are going to be one hell of a ride 

im still seeing a certain group of 'followers' calling all the closures 'bullshit'. this same group is quick to point out that the flu is much more serious and blaming the media for over hyping the whole situation. 

Was working on a plan to move over to a friends house. We are both single parents and our kids get along. Make it easier with school out and we both have been careful and isolating. Ex husband calls her and says well I don't believe this crap, and if I want to come over and stay there I am going to. He and his buds, real winners from Hays county, think this is all a joke.

I told her see ya, buy a gun. Dude is not going to take this serious and will put people at risk. Shit, glad I have a nice collection of books and some 1/72 scale models.

Stay the fuck home if you don't need to go out. Be smart, and wash your hands. And for the love of god, keep up the good humor on this site! We got this. Hook Em! 

 

[RollLeft 5044]

In a typical day in the U.S., on average, 7,400 people die.  That's 51,000 in a week or 225,000 in a month and over 2.7 million in a year.  That means every 12 seconds someone dies.

The top ten reasons people die in the U.S. (again not all, top ten)

24% or 648,000 will die due to heart failure,  1775/per day or 54,000/per month

21% or 567,000 will die due to cancer          1553 day /47,250 month

6% or  162, 000 will die in accidents            443 day/ 13500 month

6% or 162,000 will die due to respiratory illness 

5% or 135, 000 will die due to Stroke or Cerebrovascular  369 day/ 11250 month

4% or 108, 000 will die due to Alzheimer's                    295 day /     9000 month     

3% or 81,000 will die due to Diabetes                          221 day / 6750 month

2% or 54,000 will die due to Influenza and Pneumonia (Most of these typically from Oct-Feb)      360 day /  10,800 per month  

2% or 54,000 will die due to Kidney disease       147 day / 4500 month

2% or 54,000 will die due to Suicide

Most people in this country don't have to, don't want to, choose not to or simply don't care to face the facts of actual deaths.  Ignorance leads to fear and fear leads to panic.  Take from this information what you will.  I think some perspective on all deaths, in this country, may do many people some good during this time.          

Edited March 18, 2020 by RollLeft

[Anastasis 23469]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Wait...my reading was that ace inhibitors were the ones to avoid, and ace inhibitors and arbs work quite differently. So, losartan, an arb, wasn’t on the caution list?

ACEI and ARBs have similar effects in terms of ACE2 upregulation. They work mechanistically differently, but in this specific regard they have the same relevant effect wrt ACE 2. 

My change of thinking is based on re-evaluation of the time frames that we are looking at. My earlier assessment was based on a 7-10 day exposure time frame.  We have (hopefully) flattened that, which means the exposure window is significantly increased. I think that we are socially isolated for many weeks at this point, and exposures could occur downstream.  Might make a difference.  Makes sense by my reasoning to consider tapering off the ACEI or ARBs and monitor BP levels.  If you are diabetic, or have kidney disease, or have other complicating factors the risk dynamic is different.  But for myself, I just have essential hypertension and some mildly elevated LFTs. Over the next couple of weeks, I am not particularly worried about either. 

[atomheartbevo 89648]

1 hour ago, tjhooker said:

Just had a disturbing call with my dad who lives in Sun City. My step mom has a 102 degree fever, severe headache and pneumonia setting in her lungs. She was in Ft Worth last weekend at the zoo, restaurants and watching her grandkids. I'm freaked out because my dad is super high risk.  73 yrs old, Heart attack, quad bypass and a pacemaker.  She is a pharmacist by trade and is very educated. She told me tonight she tested negative for flu and is asking for the test tomorrow.  She sounded scared.  If my dad gets this it won't be good.  They did tell her today they can't order the test unless she was directly exposed. I told them tomorrow to lie. 

Had a FB post this evening from a friend who has a parent that has the kinds of symptoms that should get him tested.  He was turned down here in Austin, because he had not traveled and didn’t know anybody who had it.  

Why the fuck are the politicians still crowing about people who need the test can get it?    Because here it is March 17, and people who have the symptoms and tested negative for the flu are being turned away.   You know, the potential community spreaders.  And after a big push is made to ramp up testing   

He’s debating lying about it tomorrow and trying again,  a “I just heard somebody at an event was spreading it and I was there!” Kind of thing, although somebody told him to go talk to the folks at ARC here in Austin.  

[atomheartbevo 89648]

1 hour ago, wild_turkey said:

How does everyone feel about daycares right now? Are a lot of cities mandating that they close? Are any of you still using them?

We have friends who still take one of their two kids to daycare with no plans to stop until the daycare is forced to close. It makes no sense to me because the mom is currently home from work on maternity leave with their other kid who is ~7 weeks old.

Even without covid, that mom is risking her 7 week-old catching all kinds of shit from the kid going to daycare.  

[mchookem 16327]

gotdammit the discussion of takeout is killing me...i haven't mentioned it yet, but my house is under construction. like, we started a major remodel, including kitchen, living, master bed/bath, literally last monday. i can't cook, wash dishes, etc. we are 'living' in a guest bed/bathroom.

if we get one of those 'shelter in place' orders...my god we are so fucked. 

i've been doing fine, telling myself it will be fine. ..but this morning i had a meltdown. i'm not far from a serious freak out. there's nothing i can do about it. i mean, i don't even know WHAT to do. last monday seems like an eternity.

Edited March 18, 2020 by mchookem

[atomheartbevo 89648]

2 hours ago, tjhooker said:

BTW this gets loose in Sun City watch out. My step mom is a social butterfly too. If she has it I'm sure she infected a ton there. 

“But tjhooker dear, I didnt go out to any of those restaurants or even shopping like they told us to avoid, the girls and I were just playing card games at each other’s houses for the past week and helping to watch our grandkids!”

Edited March 18, 2020 by atomheartbevo

[InkaUtexas 25907]

1 minute ago, mchookem said:

gotdammit the discussion of takeout is killing me...i haven't mentioned it yet, but my house is under construction. like, we started a major remodel, including kitchen, living, master bed/bath, literally last monday. i can't cook, wash dishes, etc. we are 'living' in a guest bed/bathroom.

if we get one of those 'shelter in place' orders...my god we are so fucked. 

i've been doing fine, telling myself it will be fine. ..but this morning i had a meltdown. i'm not far from a serious freak out. there's nothing i can do about it. i mean, i don't even know WHAT to do.

Get a grill for starters.  

[Updawg 2266]

So now we have to lie to get tested,

[Bama Chick 28596]

Louisiana seems fucked.

This is all Ed Orgeron’s fault, isn’t it?

He did some voodoo shit for that championship and now the world is ending.

[SHOOTER12 8800]

2 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

Not in the fucking Podunk towns. I was in town picking up a prescription wearing a mask and gloves. Grabbed a couple of grocery items while there.

They had zero clue why I was standing back from people. One man and wife were not so quietly mocking me. They were all in grouping together randomly on ailes they were shopping.

They are going to have to have a lot of people die they know to realize this is real. The sadest part? This place I'm describing is Cookeville, TN. You know, the one just hit by the tornado. 

Maybe they are still in shock of some sort, or maybe they just refuse to believe how serious this is at this point. No clue.

I want to try to be positive as possible in these tumultuous time, but fuck, that is disheartening.

Dammit to hell.  I don't know where you're from but it seems there needs to be a cleaning of idiots there.  What's that law we're always talking about?

[atomheartbevo 89648]

32 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

next 10 days are going to be one hell of a ride 

im still seeing a certain group of 'followers' calling all the closures 'bullshit'. this same group is quick to point out that the flu is much more serious and blaming the media for over hyping the whole situation. 

And they can potentially spread it around.   Why can’t they just login to InfoWars, buy their preppier supplies and male  supplements, and hunker down?

Edited March 18, 2020 by atomheartbevo

[utee94 15811]

4 minutes ago, mchookem said:

gotdammit the discussion of takeout is killing me...i haven't mentioned it yet, but my house is under construction. like, we started a major remodel, including kitchen, living, master bed/bath, literally last monday. i can't cook, wash dishes, etc. we are 'living' in a guest bed/bathroom.

if we get one of those 'shelter in place' orders...my god we are so fucked. 

i've been doing fine, telling myself it will be fine. ..but this morning i had a meltdown. i'm not far from a serious freak out. there's nothing i can do about it. i mean, i don't even know WHAT to do.

You're gonna be ok.  Outdoor grill, indoor hot plate, microwave.  Use only a few dishes at a time, handwash in bathroom sink or tub or shower.  Use paper plates for a while if necessary. 

It's inconvenient, but manageable.  You'll make it through.

[Guadaloopy 10960]

For those that are considering lying to get tested, what benefit is gained by being tested? It’s not like some special cure or medicine is available if you test positive.  If you have symptoms, isolate.  If they are bad enough, present to an ER and get triaged.  What does the test matter?

[Hank_Hill 18803]

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Get a grill for starters.  

Yep. You have outlets outside of the kitchen, boom instant pot just became your best friend. This all assuming you have a functioning fridge/freezer 

 

[bluto 4916]

Re the Louisiana #s the very next comment on that thread:


This is important context to the Louisiana numbers: They're testing people with COVID-19 symptoms AND a negative flu test.

Alberta doesn't require a flu test. But if you do the online self-assessment and indicate no COVID symptoms, you get this message.

[Anastasis 23469]

2 hours ago, Texaus said:

I take a beta blocker and an angiotensin blocker for high blood pressure. Do those qualify? Why aren’t we hearing about this more, aren’t these drugs pretty common?

The evidence is very spotty. I would not suggest that anybody take any moves without consulting with their physician. And they very well might blow them off. I am only suggesting what I might consider under the circumstances. If you want to draw down on the ARB, I would closely monitor BP daily over the next few weeks. If you have a compelling indication such as kidney disease, diabetes, etc. mos def don't do anything somebody on the internet says. 

[Hank_Hill 18803]

I don't see much reason the beta blocker would be an issue

[Captainant 27654]

2 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

What does the test matter?

Because knowing is half the battle. Didn't you watch GI Joe? 

[Anastasis 23469]

2 hours ago, tjhooker said:

I am on you exact mix. ARB and the same diuretic. I was thinking of doing the same but my BP is so well controlled. Although most I think is due to the diuretic chlorthaliadone. 

Agree. Adding chlorthalidone brought my shit right under control. And might suffice for a couple weeks as monotherapy with close BP monitoring. I do love salt though. 

[Hagbard Celine 10853]

12 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

China Announces it will Expel US Journalists

Nothing to see here, says China.

PLEASE STOP POSTING SHIT BEHIND PAYWALLS, OR COPYPASTA.

goddamnit.

[Anastasis 23469]

Just now, Hank_Hill said:

I don't see much reason the beta blocker would be an issue

No, from what I understand the ACEI and ARBs are the issue, although it has been many years since I have thought about the RAA system and how beta blockers impact. 

[SHOOTER12 8800]

2 hours ago, tjhooker said:

Just had a disturbing call with my dad who lives in Sun City. My step mom has a 102 degree fever, severe headache and pneumonia setting in her lungs. She was in Ft Worth last weekend at the zoo, restaurants and watching her grandkids. I'm freaked out because my dad is super high risk.  73 yrs old, Heart attack, quad bypass and a pacemaker.  She is a pharmacist by trade and is very educated. She told me tonight she tested negative for flu and is asking for the test tomorrow.  She sounded scared.  If my dad gets this it won't be good.  They did tell her today they can't order the test unless she was directly exposed. I told them tomorrow to lie. 

Thoughts prayers and all my love brother...

[dcar00 14181]

23 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

In a typical day in the U.S., on average, 7,400 people die.  That's 51,000 in a week or 225,000 in a month and over 2.7 million in a year.  That means every 12 seconds someone is dies.

The top ten reasons people die in the U.S. (again not all, top ten)

24% or 648,000 will die due to heart failure,  1775/per day or 54,000/per month

21% or 567,000 will die due to cancer          1553 day /47,250 month

6% or  162, 000 will die in accidents            443 day/ 13500 month

6% or 162,000 will die due to respiratory illness 

5% or 135, 000 will die due to Stroke or Cerebrovascular  369 day/ 11250 month

4% or 108, 000 will die due to Alzheimer's                    295 day /     9000 month     

3% or 81,000 will die due to Diabetes                          221 day / 6750 month

2% or 54,000 will die due to Influenza and Pneumonia (Most of these typically from Oct-Feb)      360 day /  10,800 per month  

2% or 54,000 will die due to Kidney disease       147 day / 4500 month

2% or 54,000 will die due to Suicide

Most people in this country don't have to, don't want to, choose not to or simply don't care to face the facts of actual deaths.  Ignorance leads to fear and fear leads to panic.  Take from this information what you will.  I think some perspective on all deaths, in this country, may do many people some good during this time.          

good info.  while I am on the don't panic, handle your business, more people will die because of this just like they did 10 years ago, side of this, I do totally understand that this is likely more quickly spreading(how much no one knows despite how forcefully they type) than H1N1 and we have to prevent a run on hospitals that crash the system and cause unstoppable panic which causes us to institute martial law type measures.  your numbers are spread over a year not a pontential 2-3 month spike needing massive critical care with an even higher percentage that get hospitalized and recover. 

If this ends up being sub 20K(yes I realize it is a random number)dying over a years time we will have 2 events within a decade that  were both sub 20K and we need to create a way to act accordingly without cratering the economic system.

yes,  crazy flu viruses affect the older/compromised population more. I will be one of those at some point soon.

Edited March 18, 2020 by dcar00

[RayDog 682]

The first person known to have died from the Wuhan Virus outside China also tested positive for influenzaB and strep. 

I wish people would stop treating a positive flu test as a negative Wuhan Virus test.

[Stinkpalm 687]

5 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Get a grill for starters.  

Yup. My first thought as well. If it gets that desperate... gas grill with a side burner, fridge/freezer for the garage, paper plates/plastic utensils, and wash the pots and pans with the garden hose. A kitchen isn’t absolutely necessary to cook all your meals at home, albeit more convenient. Just gotta think outside the box

[dcar00 14181]

7 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

For those that are considering lying to get tested, what benefit is gained by being tested? It’s not like some special cure or medicine is available if you test positive.  If you have symptoms, isolate.  If they are bad enough, present to an ER and get triaged.  What does the test matter?

his step mom is in the old group that is WAY more susceptible to this and if she has it they need to track and document her contacts.

 

[ChiTownDoc 21152]

16 minutes ago, mchookem said:

gotdammit the discussion of takeout is killing me...i haven't mentioned it yet, but my house is under construction. like, we started a major remodel, including kitchen, living, master bed/bath, literally last monday. i can't cook, wash dishes, etc. we are 'living' in a guest bed/bathroom.

if we get one of those 'shelter in place' orders...my god we are so fucked. 

i've been doing fine, telling myself it will be fine. ..but this morning i had a meltdown. i'm not far from a serious freak out. there's nothing i can do about it. i mean, i don't even know WHAT to do. last monday seems like an eternity.

Is someone in your family immunocompromised or really old?  Remember most people are going to get this.  It's VERY low risk if you aren't in those specific demographics.  No need to freak out.  

[dcar00 14181]

5 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Because the treatment is different and I sure the hell would want to know.  Please.  You'd rather live in the dark?

tj, you need to have your mom and dad document their contacts in the last 2 weeks as best they can.

[ChiTownDoc 21152]

3 minutes ago, RayDog said:

The first person known to have died from the Wuhan Virus outside China also tested positive for influenzaB and strep. 

I wish people would stop treating a positive flu test as a negative Wuhan Virus test.

Too late - there's tons of patients who are flu positive in had their time in the hospital and are now in nursing homes.  Expect carnage to hit in the next 7 days.  That's why several centers are not accepting any flu/respiratory illness from hospitals.  This is a known problem in the medical community. 

[bluto 4916]

tj, you need to have your mom and dad document their contacts in the last 2 weeks as best they can.

1. South Austin’s mom

[Guadaloopy 10960]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

his step mom is in the old group that is WAY more susceptible to this and if she has it they need to track and document her contacts.

 

There is no tracking and documenting contacts happening at this point.  We are way beyond that.

[dcar00 14181]

1 minute ago, bluto said:

1. South Austin’s mom

already infected I'm sure.

[dcar00 14181]

Just now, Guadaloopy said:

There is no tracking and documenting contacts happening at this point.  We are way beyond that.

not for the govt...

[C-Man 27214]

8 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

For those that are considering lying to get tested, what benefit is gained by being tested? It’s not like some special cure or medicine is available if you test positive.  If you have symptoms, isolate.  If they are bad enough, present to an ER and get triaged.  What does the test matter?

If somebody has it, I want it counted. I think it will matter to have the data down the road whether it's to present to the assholes who are saying this is no big deal, flu kills more people, etc.

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The evidence is very spotty. I would not suggest that anybody take any moves without consulting with their physician. And they very well might blow them off. I am only suggesting what I might consider under the circumstances. If you want to draw down on the ARB, I would closely monitor BP daily over the next few weeks. If you have a compelling indication such as kidney disease, diabetes, etc. mos def don't do anything somebody on the internet says. 

Talked to my doctor's PA yesterday and they weren't concerned at all. I think I'm actually taking an ARB as opposed to ACE inhibitor but maybe those are one and the same.

[Hagbard Celine 10853]

11 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

Sydney next to ocean

Dallas next to Balch Springs

Sydney 33 south

LA 34 north

[Junior Miller 1502]

16 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

PLEASE STOP POSTING SHIT BEHIND PAYWALLS, OR COPYPASTA.

goddamnit.

Quote

 

China Announces That It Will Expel American Journalists

The announcement comes weeks after President Trump limited the number of Chinese citizens who can work in the United States for five state-run Chinese news organizations.

In a sharp escalation of tensions between the two superpowers, China announced on Tuesday that it would expel American journalists working for The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post. It also demanded that those outlets, as well as the Voice of America and Time magazine, provide the Chinese government with detailed information about their operations.

The announcement, made by China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, came weeks after the Trump administration limited to 100 the number of Chinese citizens who can work in the United States for five state-run Chinese news organizations that are widely considered propaganda outlets.

China instructed American journalists for the three news organizations whose press credentials are due to expire this year to “notify the Department of Information of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs within four calendar days starting from today and hand back their press cards within ten calendar days.” Almost all the China-based journalists for the three organizations have press cards that expire this year.

The announcement went on to say that the American journalists now working in mainland China “will not be allowed to continue working as journalists in the People’s Republic of China, including its Hong Kong and Macao Special Administrative Regions.” The two territories are semiautonomous and in theory have greater press freedoms than the mainland.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs said the decisions “are entirely necessary and reciprocal countermeasures that China is compelled to take in response to the unreasonable oppression the Chinese media organizations experience in the U.S.”

The statement also accused the United States of “exclusively targeting Chinese media organizations,” adding that it was “driven by a Cold War mentality.” The new limits imposed by the Trump administration effectively forced 60 Chinese employees of the state-run organizations to leave the country.

Reporters at foreign news outlets in China were among those who aggressively reported on the coronavirus epidemic in January and February, including in its earliest days, when it was a regionalized outbreak in central China and the Chinese government sought to play down its severity.

The news organizations have also reported in the past year on other issues deemed extremely sensitive by Chinese officials, including the mass internment of Muslims in the Xinjiang region and the shadowy business dealings of family members of leaders, including President Xi Jinping.

Dean Baquet, the executive editor of The Times, condemned the expulsion of U.S. reporters in a statement, calling it “especially irresponsible at a time when the world needs the free and open flow of credible information about the coronavirus pandemic.”

“It is critical that the governments of the United States and China move quickly to resolve this dispute and allow journalists to do the important work of informing the public,” he said. He noted that The Times has more journalists in China than anywhere else internationally.

Matt Murray, the editor in chief of The Wall Street Journal, and Martin Baron, the executive editor of The Washington Post, also condemned China’s decision.

American officials had been bracing for a retaliatory move by Beijing. On March 3, after the Trump administration announced the new regulations on five Chinese state-run news organizations, Hua Chunying, a Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, wrote on Twitter, “Now the U.S. has kicked off the game, let’s play.”

Orville Schell, a longtime American writer on China and a former dean of the U.C. Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism who is now at the Asia Society, said of the move: “There’s been nothing on such a grand scale.”

“Throwing out the big papers is one notch below closing down an embassy,” he added. “It’s a devastatingly dangerous spiral that we’re falling into here. The already compromised musculature between the two countries is being rent apart.”

Tensions between Washington and Beijing have risen quickly in recent years, mainly fueled by a trade war that President Trump started in 2018 and that the two sides paused with a truce in December. Beyond trade, both countries have been pushing against each other on a broad range of strategic and economic issues, including the coronavirus outbreak.

The cycle of escalation involving news organizations began last month.

On Feb. 18, the Trump administration announced that five state-run Chinese news organizations — Xinhua, CGTN, China Radio, China Daily and People’s Daily — would be regulated as foreign government functionaries, subject to rules similar to those applying to Chinese missions.

The next day, China announced that it would expel three Journal staff members based in Beijing in retaliation for the headline of an earlier opinion column, “China Is the Real Sick Man of Asia,” which criticized the Chinese government’s handling of the coronavirus outbreak. Two of the Journal reporters, Josh Chin, an American, and Philip Wen, an Australian, flew out of Beijing the next week. A third reporter, Chao Deng, an American, had been reporting in the virus containment zone of Wuhan and could not leave.

The Journal has been in the cross hairs of the Chinese government since last year. In August, the Foreign Ministry refused to renew the visa of a Singaporean reporter for the newspaper’s Beijing bureau, Chun Han Wong, effectively expelling him. Mr. Wong and Mr. Wen, the Australian reporter, had co-written an investigative story on a cousin of Mr. Xi, the president.

The forced departures of the Journal reporters last month were believed to be the first outright expulsions of foreign journalists by the Chinese government since 1998.

But in recent years, it has become common for the government to harass foreign journalists and their families, in part by requiring them to undergo onerous processes to renew their visas, according to a report published this month by the Foreign Correspondents’ Club of China. Recently, the report said, some journalists had been working under visas shorter than the standard one-year duration: six months, three months, even one month.

It counted nine journalists who had effectively been thrown out of the country, whether via outright expulsion or through the unexplained refusal to grant a visa, since 2013, after Mr. Xi took power.

Almost all the American reporters for the three news organizations named in the Tuesday announcement have press cards and visas or residence permits that expire this year. The press cards are needed to maintain residency, and turning them in effectively means the journalists would need to leave the country. Reporters who were recently given a press card and residence permit that do not expire until 2021 can presumably continue to work.

All three news organizations also have full-time reporters based in China who are not American citizens.

The announcement does not indicate that any Hong Kong-based newsrooms of the organizations would need to stop operations, even if the journalists expelled from the mainland are not allowed to report there. The Times and The Journal both have large newsrooms in Hong Kong that serve as editing hubs and bases for reporters. The Washington Post’s Southeast Asia bureau chief is also based in Hong Kong. Those reporters do not operate under the same regulations as the ones based in the mainland.

In Washington on Tuesday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said he hoped China would reconsider the expulsions, which he called “unfortunate.” But he scoffed at Beijing’s statement that the action was being taken in reaction to the restrictions that the State Department announced last month against the Chinese news agencies.

“This isn’t apples to apples,” Mr. Pompeo told reporters at a State Department briefing that was scheduled before the Chinese Foreign Ministry released its statement. “You all get to ask me whatever question you want and I give you the answer. We know that that kind of freedom doesn’t exist inside of China.”

He maintained that the Chinese news agencies working in the United States were part of Beijing’s propaganda machine — not independent journalism outlets.

Mr. Pompeo, who started the briefing by referring to the “Wuhan virus,” also said that press freedoms are in the interest of the Chinese people “in these incredibly challenging global times, where more information, more transparency are what will save lives.”

Mr. Pompeo has denounced reporters on occasion, and Mr. Trump does so frequently, calling them the “enemy of the people.” Officials in China and other authoritarian nations have embraced a term popularized by Mr. Trump, “fake news,” to criticize journalists.

The fact that Beijing is trying to prevent the expelled reporters from reporting out of Hong Kong and Macau is a sign of the further erosion of press freedoms in those territories.

In October 2018, Hong Kong officials refused to renew the work visa of the Asia editor of The Financial Times, Victor Mallet, in what appeared to be an effort by the government to coerce foreign journalists to limit their activities and reporting.

In late 2013, China threatened to not renew the press cards for all reporters in the mainland bureaus of The Times and Bloomberg News because of investigative stories they had done, which would have led to their de facto expulsions. That prompted then Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. to defend the organizations in meetings in Beijing with Chinese leaders.

Online access to many news outlets, including The Times, The Journal, Bloomberg and Reuters, has been blocked for years in China. In 2019, The Washington Post and The Guardian were added to the list of blocked publications.

Susan L. Shirk, the chair of the 21st Century China Center at the University of California, San Diego, said she worried about the “nasty, unseemly, self-defeating” tit-for-tat between the two countries.

“I think it’s time for a truce,” she said. “Our foreign ministers should get on a Zoom call and start to negotiate some of these contentious but symbolic issues.”

Marc Tracy reported from New York, and Edward Wong and Lara Jakes from Washington

 

[Hagbard Celine 10853]

11 hours ago, dcar00 said:

Opera House v Bronco Bowl  adv: Dallas

Bronco Bowl

Oak Cliff

Openend 1962

Closed 2003

U2 - War tour - 13 June 1983

attendance: 3800, and the fire marshal was po'ed

[C-Man 27214]

1 minute ago, Junior Miller said:

 

You know what? Fuck those guys. They started this goddamn shit.