Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[Neonmoon 38,130]

8 minutes ago, Viper said:

so it sounds like there might be a treatment that works pretty well

https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf

 

“We therefore recommend that COVID-19 patients be treated with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin to cure their infection and to limit the transmission of the virus to other people in order to curb the spread of COVID-19 in the world.”

 

Can get Fauci to approve this, calm down, and stop the tanking of the economy now?

Quote

At day6 post-inclusion, 100% of patients treated with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin combination were virologicaly cured comparing with 57.1% in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine only, and 12.5% in the control group (p<0.001). These results are summarized in Figures 1 and 2. Drug effect was significantly higher in patients with symptoms of URTI and LRTI, as compared to asymptomatic patients with p<0.05 (data not show).

Of note, one patient who was still PCR-positive at day6-post inclusion under hydroxychloroquine treatment only, received azithromycin in addition to hydroxychloroquine at day8-post inclusion and cured her infection at day-9 post infection. In contrast, one of the patients under hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin combination who tested negative at day6 post-inclusion was tested positive at low titer at day8 post-inclusion.

That seems promising, even if only a very small sample size. 

[NoName 16,369]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

“Another America”

 

guy is being a smartass. northern territory has less than 250k individuals living in it.

US is at 327+ mil

Italy is at 60+ mil

Australia total is at 24+ mil

 

[Captainant 27,727]

4 minutes ago, Viper said:

Can get Fauci to approve this, calm down, and stop the tanking of the economy now?

You want a medical expert to ignore medical best practices and his hippocratic oath to recommend a widespread treatment regimen without clinical trials to evaluate for drug interactions while the body's chemistry is out of whack from CV-19?

He isn't holding up approval because he wants to tank the economy, and the fact that you see things that way makes it very clear that you care more about your bank account than the overall public health outcome.

Get a fucking grip dude, this is a global medical emergency. It won't respond to propaganda and rhetoric in the same way that markets or people do. Actions and decisions have consequences. And because Fauci is a medical expert, he's not willing to gamble that many lives and resources on a literally untested treatment.

One of the great tragedies of the 1918 pandemic is that there was an early, but false, hope of a vaccine. So much time and resources were expended creating a worthless vaccine that didn't do anything to fix the problem. That is what Fauci wants to avoid. 

[SaucyJack 3,500]

27 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

From a friend in austin two weeks ago




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

X

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

2 minutes ago, NoName said:

guy is being a smartass. northern territory has less than 250k individuals living in it.

US is at 327+ mil

Italy is at 60+ mil

Australia total is at 24+ mil

I think it’s more about not acting quickly and taking it seriously.   How many ICUs do you think the Northern Territory has avaialable?

[NoName 16,369]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

That seems promising, even if only a very small sample size. 

yup, small sample size (which luckily they talk about a ton in the paper)

• total patients = 36
• control patients = 16
• Hydroxychloroquine patients = 20
• Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin patients (subset of the 20) = 6 patients i think?

[tx 3 putt 77,345]

100% we are headed to - shelter in place if you’re high risk, everyone else get back to normal. If you get it, highly likely you’ll survive !
 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by tx 3 putt

[F250 28,814]

5 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

You gotta love how Abbott is abdicating all responsibility and is leaving everything up to the localities to decide.

 

Plastic bag ban? Can't have that. Gotta have everyone on the same page, can't have some "patchwork" of laws.

 

Coronavirus? Meh, do what you want.

 

What a fucking bitch ass motherfucker.

The dude is an incompetent know-nothing.

[NoName 16,369]

2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I think it’s more about not acting quickly and taking it seriously.   How many ICUs do you think the Northern Territory has avaialable?

looks like they literally have 22 ICU beds?

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/doctors-stark-coronavirus-warning-were-going-to-run-out-of-icu-beds-c-758090

bed counts from that article

Quote

 

Australia has 2229 intensive care beds.

• New South Wales has 874.
• Victoria has 476.
• Queensland has 413.
• Western Australia has 162
• South Australia has 188.
• The Northern Territory has 22.
• Tasmania has 50.
• The ACT has 44.

 

•  

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

3 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

You gotta love how Abbott is abdicating all responsibility and is leaving everything up to the localities to decide.

Quote

Local authorities have the authority to implement more strict standards than what I as governor have ordered here in the state of Texas,” Abbott said, adding that if those mayors or county judges did so, “I would applaud them.”

Quote

I am the governor of 254 counties in the state of Texas,” Abbott said at a mid-afternoon news conference from his Capitol office.

“The public knows that cases of COVID-19 are increasing in places like Dallas, in Houston, in Austin, and several other urban areas,” Abbott said. But, he said, “what may be right for places like the large urban areas may not be right at this particular point in time for the more than 200 counties that have zero cases of COVID-19.”

Actually Greg, many of the things that are right for large urban areas can be applied to those 200+ counties, to keep them from seeing a big jump in cases.   

Because when he says “this particular point in time”, what happens in a week or two or three when many of those counties start seeing their first cases and don’t know what the fuck to do other than ship them off to one of the four big urban areas?

[gsoda3 3,281]

14 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

24 tons over the next several weeks. 

 

so... where do we get this.  b/c we have 0 hand sanitizer. 

[G650 14,273]

1 hour ago, utee94 said:

I'm also curious as to how the "population-density enthusiasts" for new construction are going to react to all of this.

Given the densest places on earth, Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore are radically under the curve of the rest of us, probably not how you are hoping.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, that's fucking grand....I'm allergic to mycin drugs. 

[Skipper 6,193]

3 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Actually Greg, many of the things that are right for large urban areas can be applied to those 200+ counties, to keep them from seeing a big jump in cases.   

Because when he says “this particular point in time”, what happens in a week or two or three when many of those counties start seeing their first cases and don’t know what the fuck to do other than ship them off to one of the four big urban areas?

I think that's exactly what leadership in Houston and Dallas are afraid of.

[NoName 16,369]

2 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

so... where do we get this.  b/c we have 0 hand sanitizer. 

Seriously, call up some local distilleries to see if they are selling/giving it away.

 

[Brisketexan 105,276]

Lots of things are good germicides.

Yes, bleach and alcohol.  But do you have some spray 409 or Fantastik?  Those are germicides too.  We've been using 409 to spray things down (packaging, etc.), wiping them off with paper towels or better yet, a good cloth.  That way, you can get it somewhat soaked and use it to wipe multiple packages (like things brought home from the store).

 

[Macanudo 13,009]

How many have gotten only azithromycin?

[JesusSweatDuck 17,809]

11 minutes ago, NoName said:

yup, small sample size (which luckily they talk about a ton in the paper)

• total patients = 36
• control patients = 16
• Hydroxychloroquine patients = 20
• Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin patients (subset of the 20) = 6 patients i think?

Yeah, this is the type of stuff that will eventually end our current situation, but it's going to take some time to develop proper protocols and find the right combination.  This stuff can't just be rushed in mass as it could cause more problems than good if not done right.

[utee94 15,853]

2 minutes ago, G650 said:

Given the densest places on earth, Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore are radically under the curve of the rest of us, probably not how you are hoping.

Maybe, but those other countries really aren't analogous to the USA for numerous and a variety of reasons.  And China is population-dense as well.

I'm certainly not "hoping" anything.  But I am curious how it will go, specifically with building codes in Austin.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

Just now, JesusSweatDuck said:

Yeah, this is the type of stuff that will eventually end our current situation, but it's going to take some time to develop proper protocols and find the right combination.  This stuff can't just be rushed in mass as it could cause more problems than good if not done right.

I was told essential oils work better. 

[lonestar3 274]

1 minute ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Yeah, this is the type of stuff that will eventually end our current situation, but it's going to take some time to develop proper protocols and find the right combination.  This stuff can't just be rushed in mass as it could cause more problems than good if not done right.

That feels unlikely at this point.

[Loco 3,754]

10 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

so... where do we get this.  b/c we have 0 hand sanitizer. 

at the risk of being repetitive.  Plain old soap and water works better than hand sanitizer.  Unless you are somewhere that you can't wash.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Loco

[naija 2,869]

7 minutes ago, NoName said:

yup, small sample size (which luckily they talk about a ton in the paper)

• total patients = 36
• control patients = 16
• Hydroxychloroquine patients = 20
• Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin patients (subset of the 20) = 6 patients i think?

by their own calculations, the number of patients didn't meet criteria for power, a Type I error rate of 0.05 and had >10% loss of patients. need 24 each of cohort and control. got 20 and 16.

they had 26 treated patients of whom 6 left for various reasons (some of which where medical) and chose not to include those 6 in the analysis when there are statistical ways you could do so.

also important to look at their exclusion criteria.

an RCT is not going to happen, but instead of applying it massively, NY has more than enough people to run a clinical trial on.

[KYHorn 17,134]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Lots of things are good germicides.

Yes, bleach and alcohol.  But do you have some spray 409 or Fantastik?  Those are germicides too.  We've been using 409 to spray things down (packaging, etc.), wiping them off with paper towels or better yet, a good cloth.  That way, you can get it somewhat soaked and use it to wipe multiple packages (like things brought home from the store).

 

We've all been using Windex. Sneeze/cough/hacking? Spray some Windex on it and go about your day. 

[Liquor and Poker 3,659]

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I was told essential oils work better. 

Patchouli and garlic. Garlic is for the vampires. 

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I was told essential oils work better. 

Only if applied with artisanal cotton balls.  

Unless you’re NowThis, then you apply it with a baseball bat.  

[utee94 15,853]

3 minutes ago, Loco said:

at the risk of being repetitive.  Plain old soap and water works better than hand sanitizer.  Unless you are somewhere that you can wash.

Assuming you meant "can't wash"-- and that's the issue for a lot of people.  I keep a bottle in each car and use it whenever leaving ANY place-- the store, the kids' soccer games, whatever.  I have extra because this is something I've always done, no change to my behavior for the CV.  We all wash our hands upon returning home, or to any other place with a sink and soap.

But a lot of people are now trying to do the same thing, and can't.  Because there's no hand sanitizer available for them to purchase.  I don't think you're suggesting doing NOTHING is better than using hand sanitizer, when access to soap and water isn't available?

[Loco 3,754]

2 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Assuming you meant "can't wash"-- and that's the issue for a lot of people.  I keep a bottle in each car and use it whenever leaving ANY place-- the store, the kids' soccer games, whatever.  I have extra because this is something I've always done, no change to my behavior for the CV.  We all wash our hands upon returning home, or to any other place with a sink and soap.

But a lot of people are now trying to do the same thing, and can't.  Because there's no hand sanitizer available for them to purchase.  I don't think you're suggesting doing NOTHING is better than using hand sanitizer, when access to soap and water isn't available?

No I fixed it... it was a typo.  I just thought some folks might be thinking they needed it for home.

[JimmyHoffa 1,188]

nm

 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by JimmyHoffa

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,142]

29 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You want a medical expert to ignore medical best practices and his hippocratic oath to recommend a widespread treatment regimen without clinical trials to evaluate for drug interactions while the body's chemistry is out of whack from CV-19?

He isn't holding up approval because he wants to tank the economy, and the fact that you see things that way makes it very clear that you care more about your bank account than the overall public health outcome.

Get a fucking grip dude, this is a global medical emergency. It won't respond to propaganda and rhetoric in the same way that markets or people do. Actions and decisions have consequences. And because Fauci is a medical expert, he's not willing to gamble that many lives and resources on a literally untested treatment.

One of the great tragedies of the 1918 pandemic is that there was an early, but false, hope of a vaccine. So much time and resources were expended creating a worthless vaccine that didn't do anything to fix the problem. That is what Fauci wants to avoid. 

This is not a vaccine. This is a treatment regiment for those already infected.  Why not run some trial tests with patients already in the hospital?  Beggars cannot be choosers at this point.

[Loco 3,754]

Just now, JimmyHoffa said:

 

They literally said in their post "unless you are somewhere you can't wash"....

 

 

I edited my post after he had already quoted and started responding.  no biggie

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

15 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I think that's exactly what leadership in Houston and Dallas are afraid of.

Playing to the big cities who actually understand and are paying attention to where this is headed by cheering them on if they SIP, while simultaneously playing to the Simple Jacks and Cletuses in Bum Fuck, Texas who don’t want to do shit.....for somebody who is a UT grad, he is.....disappointing to say the least.  I expect this out of an aggy   

He’s willing to risk blowing up the healthcare systems in this state in the hopes that this blows over.  Makes no sense.  

[Shaggybevo 353]

35 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

24 tons over the next several weeks. 

 

From Tito's website

Hand Sanitizer

While we advise that you cannot use our standard vodka product as a hand sanitizer, our team at the distillery has been working hard to get all of the pieces in place to begin production on a hand sanitizer that adheres to industry and governmental guidance.

Last week, the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) announced they are authorizing production of ethanol-based hand sanitizers by permitted distillers. This good news allowed our team to continue working on this process.

Currently, we are testing our formula, procuring necessary components of supplies and packaging, and preparing for production as we wait for the additional required ingredients to be delivered to the distillery. We have the ingredients and equipment on order to make an initial 24 tons of hand sanitizer over the next several weeks, and plan to make more from there as needed.

While we don’t have all of the details quite yet, we do know we will be giving it away for free to our community and those most in need. We will update you as we know more.

https://www.titosvodka.com/stories/sending-love-and-goodness/

 

[XYZ 2,154]

Lifetime ban for Loco for typing can instead of can’t, and then fixing the mistake but not fast enough.

Edited March 23, 2020 by XYZ

[Hate 20,138]

2 minutes ago, Loco said:

I edited my post after he had already quoted and started responding.  no biggie

[Hate 20,138]

1 minute ago, XYZ said:

Lifetime ban for Loco for typing can instead of can’t, and the fixing the mistake but not fast enough.

*then

[Loco 3,754]

I filmed this yesterday...  the social distancing is real

Spoiler

Good thing ERs are slow

 

 

[SHOOTER12 8,822]

13 hours ago, Mikey4 said:

13 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

That’d be great, if had any damn masks.  

Is there a shortage of surgical masks? If so, use a bandana or shirt. Something to limit the droplets that come out when an infected person coughs and sneezes.

Well, this old hillbilly is using the blue paper shop towels soaked in Wintergreen alcohol. If I feel a sneeze or cough coming on I grab one out of my safety vest pocket.  My vest has six pockets, so I carry six of them.

The blue towels seem to be denser and of far higher quality than a typical paper towel.

[Captainant 27,727]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

This is not a vaccine. This is a treatment regiment for those already infected.  Why not run some trial tests with patients already in the hospital?  Beggars cannot be choosers at this point.

I understand it's not a vaccine, my point was that in times of crisis, if we're going to roll out a treatment as THE treatment then we'd better be damn sure it will do what we expect it to, and that it won't do what we don't expect it to. In 1918, many labs wasted time they could have put towards research and development of other treatments on producing something that ultimately wasn't helpful

We don't have unlimited resources. We don't know all the repercussions for widespread treatment with HC+AT, and all of the medical experts on the CV-19 task force agree that is reason for pause and (expedited) testing.

Currently, the whole fucking country wants to bet the farm on a treatment that has a sample size of N=6 because the president has been pimping it out so hard in the task force pressers. Don't listen to the politicians saying they have a quick fix. Listen to the medical experts who are saying we need to be sure before we sink the resources to scale the treatment.

[Shaggybevo 353]

Everylywell is shipping their at home test kits.  Initial run of 30k tests prioritized for first responders.

Available now, COVID-19 test for hospitals and healthcare providers

Protecting frontline healthcare providers is critical to stopping the spread of COVID-19. Today, we are offering our initial test supply to healthcare companies with workers on the frontlines in an effort to get them the resources they need.

https://www.everlywell.com/

[MonkeyDoughnut 10,353]

34 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You want a medical expert to ignore medical best practices and his hippocratic oath to recommend a widespread treatment regimen without clinical trials to evaluate for drug interactions while the body's chemistry is out of whack from CV-19?

He isn't holding up approval because he wants to tank the economy, and the fact that you see things that way makes it very clear that you care more about your bank account than the overall public health outcome.

Get a fucking grip dude, this is a global medical emergency. It won't respond to propaganda and rhetoric in the same way that markets or people do. Actions and decisions have consequences. And because Fauci is a medical expert, he's not willing to gamble that many lives and resources on a literally untested treatment.

One of the great tragedies of the 1918 pandemic is that there was an early, but false, hope of a vaccine. So much time and resources were expended creating a worthless vaccine that didn't do anything to fix the problem. That is what Fauci wants to avoid. 

A sense of urgency wouldn't suck... He very much is willing to gamble many lives and resources by not rushing the untested treatment.  Not saying he's right or wrong, but there is a known downside for not trying it and pushing it sooner that later.

[Hagbard Celine 10,910]

11 hours ago, 2300 Nueces said:

Ok, no biggie.  I'm out.

no, you're not out.  by decree of gabriel who has not yet blown his horn.

[Captainant 27,727]

Just now, MonkeyDoughnut said:

A sense of urgency wouldn't suck... He very much is willing to gamble many lives and resources by not rushing the untested treatment.  Not saying he's right or wrong, but there is a known downside for not trying it and pushing it sooner that later.

Yeah, it's almost like we're four to six weeks behind in our response. But we aren't allowed to comment on how past decisions affect our current state of preparedness otherwise people shout you down because that's political?

Right now we're addressing the PPE and ICU problem. That's something we saw coming as far back as January. Using that as a yardstick of how far behind we are, I'm guessing it won't be until late April or early May when we see proactive treatment start to get some actual attention and resources.

[triplehorn 2,664]

- From the French HCHQ/Azithromycin paper:

"We enrolled 36 out of 42 patients meeting the inclusion criteria in this study that had at least six days of follow-up at the time of the present analysis."

This suggests patients already had a positive PCR dx at least 6 days prior to inclusion in the study.  It's important to consider that immediate treatment with detection could further improve outocmes.

- Re potential drug interactions with negative effects on cardiac conduction:

"Speculated   potential risk of severe QT prolongation induced by the association of the two drugs has not been established yet but should be considered."

so that's reassuring.  Also regarding risk for HCHQ retinopathy, it's low: "The incidence of HCQ retinopathy is very low. In fact, HCQ is estimated at having a 0.5% incidence of retinal toxicity after 5 years of therapy."  G6PD deficiency is probably the biggest risk factor which can result in hemolytic anemia crisis.

- Re:  "The cause of failure for hydroxychloroquine treatment should be investigated by testing the isolated SARS-CoV-2 strains of the non-respondents and analyzing their genome, and by analyzing the host factors that may be associated with the metabolism of hydroxychloroquine. The existence of hydroxychloroquine failure in two patients (mother and son) is more suggestive of the last mechanism of resistance."

The above also makes me wonder how sensitive drug levels are to efficacy.  Sometimes people are genetically predisposed "fast metabolizers" and can clear drugs a lot faster than average, hence potentially could be dosed at sub-therapeutic levels.

 

Overall, the results are very encouraging, I think with a more than acceptable safety risk after consent using some basic screening questions including personal/family medical history, current medications taken, and allergies to meds, we should be going forward with this.  The downside to inaction is a lot greater.

So one path would be to aggressively ramp up testing of everyone in "hot spot" regions and rapid application of HCHQ/Azith with consent for positive tests whether you're symptomatic or not.  That last point is supported by the observation in the French study that HCHQ/Azith patients go to undetectable viral levels in 6 days versus reports from China that untreated cases can shed for up tp 20 days.  So even if you're asymptomatic or mild, taking the combo lowers risk of transmission, especially if you're a part of critical work infrastructure. 

Edited March 23, 2020 by triplehorn

[JesusSweatDuck 17,809]

24 minutes ago, Liquor and Poker said:

Patchouli and garlic. Garlic is for the vampires. 

Patchouli is guaranteed to keep everyone 6 ft away from you.

[BurntOrange&White 39,963]

Yeah, it's almost like we're four to six weeks behind in our response. But we aren't allowed to comment on how past decisions affect our current state of preparedness otherwise people shout you down because that's political?
Right now we're addressing the PPE and ICU problem. That's something we saw coming as far back as January. Using that as a yardstick of how far behind we are, I'm guessing it won't be until late April or early May when we see proactive treatment start to get some actual attention and resources.

The governor said he wants to wait weeks to see if our “method” is working

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Yeah, it's almost like we're four to six weeks behind in our response. But we aren't allowed to comment on how past decisions affect our current state of preparedness otherwise people shout you down because that's political?

Right now we're addressing the PPE and ICU problem. That's something we saw coming as far back as January. Using that as a yardstick of how far behind we are, I'm guessing it won't be until late April or early May when we see proactive treatment start to get some actual attention and resources.

Well, a lot of the measures could change by the end of this month.   No CR, just posting the words of the person in charge

That 15 days started a week ago

https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/15-days-slow-spread/

 

[Beau Vine 54,384]

I am starting to regret insisting that the wife get permission to work from home.

[Dbeasy 15,085]

Honest question- two layers of t-shirt would be significantly higher than 1, right?

Three layers would capture 150% of the virus. It’s math yo.

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

I don’t buy it, based on the sites reporting it, but there are rumors the CDC is being told to put out guidelines that certain professions whose members have been directly exposed will be allowed to go back to work before their 14 days is up, as long as they wear a mask.

We would have to be at a breakdown point for that to happen, and we aren’t there yet.