Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

We have ~16% over age 65. China about 11%. The rest of the top 10 most populous countries single digits. 

What that stat could mean is we get more people to old age than anywhere else. That or we're not fucking enough.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Onboard 2.0

[Guest Lobo]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

We have ~16% over age 65. China about 11%. The rest of the top 10 most populous countries single digits. 

Okay.  So the countries that should then have the highest Covid-19 fatalities (proportionally) should be Japan, Italy, Finland, Portugal, Greece, Germany, Bulgaria, Croatia, France, and Latvia.  

Now some of those nations have suffered, but many others are far, far below where we are in terms of proportional fatality rates even with age groups accounted for.  

We fucked up massively.  We've had 9 fucking months to figure this thing out and we fuck it up at every single turn.  It's not because of age.  If that's all there was to it, Japan would be the World Heavyweight Champion of Covid deaths.  But they're actually among the best in avoiding that title.  Can't possibly imagine why that is.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Okay.  So the countries that should then have the highest Covid-19 fatalities (proportionally) should be Japan, Italy, Finland, Portugal, Greece, Germany, Bulgaria, Croatia, France, and Latvia.  

Now some of those nations have suffered, but many others are far, far below where we are in terms of proportional fatality rates even with age groups accounted for.  

We fucked up massively.  We've had 9 fucking months to figure this thing out and we fuck it up at every single turn.  It's not because of age.  If that's all there was to it, Japan would be the World Heavyweight Champion of Covid deaths.  But they're actually among the best in avoiding that title.  Can't possibly imagine why that is.  

Rabid rules followers, and they're on a fucking island ??  (SEE: New Zealand).

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That or we're not fucking enough.

My bad.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

We fucked up massively.

Just curious, what would you have done differently if you were in charge? 

[Guest Lobo]

The United States has more coastline than Japan does, why hasn't that protected us?  

I'll quit asking stupid questions...spoiler alert...we are the World Class Leader in Covid-19 deaths and will continue to be.  And we will be remembered in history books as 4% of the world's population and 24% of its pandemic deaths.  Always and Forever.  Not because of Islands, Ages, nor Numbers.  For one very simple reason. 

We died in large numbers because we chose to die in large numbers.  

Edited September 23, 2020 by Lobo

[Anastasis 23477]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

If that's all there was to it, Japan would be the World Heavyweight Champion of Covid deaths.  But they're actually among the best in avoiding that title.  Can't possibly imagine why that is.  

Because the population age structure and total population size are only two factors of the many involved. Japan has a culture of mask wearing and social distancing norms and very different mix of comorbid medical condition risk factors (obesity, CVD, etc.) relative to the US population . All those factors play a role. 

I am not arguing that we didn't fuck things up.  We have.  In particular regarding messaging related to mask wearing and both international and domestic travel restrictions imo.   

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

then there are countries like India.

India’s going to pass us in cases like we’re standing still in the next month with half of the deaths. What are they recording differently than we are?


I will say our “bloody Tuesday” death was down about 25% from a week ago.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Lobo said:

The United States has more coastline than Japan does, why hasn't that protected us?  

 

There's stupid, and then there's stoopid.. this is the latter.

[Guest Lobo]

You indicated that they being an island was part of their protection.  We've basically acted as an island for the last several months.  Severely restricted air travel, not much inter-border crossings from our north or our south.  Far less foot/vehicle traffic across borders than what most other nations experience.  We've basically been a 3-sea island for most of 2020.  And yet, unlike Japan, our fatality rate is beyond compare.  If we had a shitton of cross-border traffic as of late, I'd agree with you.  But we don't.  We're not that old of a nation despite the media, demographic math have us way down the list.  We are a fatter country, but we also negate that with phenomenal health care.  

We are not saturated with sick foreigners like many countries.  We aren't as old as many other peer nations.  And we have the best health care delivery system in the solar system.  

But here we are, nearly a quarter of the world's fatalities from this virus and nobody, not a single fucking person, can answer why that is.  Why are so we wildly out of proportion?  It can't just be high sodium/high sugar diets.  If that's all it is, then great...problem solved.  Somebody explain why.  Because we're not an Island Nation?  

[Anastasis 23477]

1 minute ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

India’s going to pass us in cases like we’re standing still in the next month with half of the deaths. What are they recording differently than we are?


I will say our “bloody Tuesday” death was down about 25% from a week ago.

India, even pre-COVID, does a very poor job of tracking death and cause of death.  It's particularly bad in the rural areas, but not much better in the major urban centers. 

 

[Captainant 27680]

5 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Just curious, what would you have done differently if you were in charge? 

• Don't kneecap public health efforts like mask mandates and social distancing guidelines
• Don't send 10+ tons of PPE overseas, instead send it to hospitals where medical staff are refurbishing and reusing disposable PPE because they have nothing else
• Don't give $$millions in DPA contracts to companies/entities who have never once created the testing and PPE equipment that they're under contract to supply
• Push for more and broader testing, and make the anonymized data public and easily accessible
• Don't lie to the American people on the danger and infection risks of COVID

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Lobo said:

You indicated that they being an island was part of their protection.  We've basically acted as an island for the last several months.  Severely restricted air travel, not much inter-border crossings from our north or our south.  Far less foot/vehicle traffic across borders than what most other nations experience.  We've basically been a 3-sea island for most of 2020.  And yet, unlike Japan, our fatality rate is beyond compare.  If we had a shitton of cross-border traffic as of late, I'd agree with you.  But we don't.  We're not that old of a nation despite the media, demographic math have us way down the list.  We are a fatter country, but we also negate that with phenomenal health care.  

We are not saturated with sick foreigners like many countries.  We aren't as old as many other peer nations.  And we have the best health care delivery system in the solar system.  

But here we are, nearly a quarter of the world's fatalities from this virus and nobody, not a single fucking person, can answer why that is.  Why are so we wildly out of proportion?  It can't just be high sodium/high sugar diets.  If that's all it is, then great...problem solved.  Somebody explain why.  Because we're not an Island Nation?  

I said rabid rules followers AND they're on an island. It's the first trait that really did the trick.  Also, they're not known as an overweight country.  That factors into the age component I believe.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Onboard 2.0

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, Lobo said:

But here we are, nearly a quarter of the world's fatalities from this virus and nobody, not a single fucking person, can answer why that is. 

We are at "half time". Let's see how it ends before we declare loss/victory. You are seeing many countries surge now that had massive lockdowns early (Israel, Spain, France). I feel like the virus is going to do what the virus is going to do...

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

The United States has more coastline than Japan does, why hasn't that protected us?  
I'll quit asking stupid questions...spoiler alert...we are the World Class Leader in Covid-19 deaths and will continue to be.  And we will be remembered in history books as 4% of the world's population and 24% of its pandemic deaths.  Always and Forever.  Not because of Islands, Ages, nor Numbers.  For one very simple reason. 
We died in large numbers because we chose to die in large numbers.  

Wow. What in the fuck is your end game with covid deaths then? The excess death is far below the threshold now

So a disease who’s life expectancy is actually higher than the normal life expectancy in regular time took off a month or two of life from those expected to die, what exactly are you getting at?

If an 86 year old who’s within the threshold lives only 1,032 months instead of 1,033 like he was expected to, is that your argument?

[Anastasis 23477]

12 minutes ago, Lobo said:

But here we are, nearly a quarter of the world's fatalities from this virus and nobody, not a single fucking person, can answer why that is.  Why are so we wildly out of proportion?  It can't just be high sodium/high sugar diets.  If that's all it is, then great...problem solved.  Somebody explain why.  Because we're not an Island Nation?  

Our case fatality rates are fairly middle of the road if not lower tier. But we do have a shit load of cases.  And the other countries with very high case counts, e.g. India, are not attributing death well. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Anastasis

[BabaYaga 15301]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

We are at "half time". Let's see how it ends before we declare loss/victory. You are seeing many countries surge now that had massive lockdowns early (Israel, Spain, France). I feel like the virus is going to do what the virus is going to do...

Further, if we are going to make a more analogous comparison, comparing the US to Europe as a whole (and not isolated countries) gives a more accurate representation (population and geographic dispersion).  The virus cares little for borders.  

On a positive note, I did see the CDC lower their fatality rates for younger demographics:

• cases under 20 years old is 0.003%
• 20-49. It used to be 0.05%, now it's 0.02%

Fatality Rates

[Cajun 11719]

Damn, Rand Paul and Fauci just went full Thunderdome on each other a few minutes ago.

DAYUM!

[BabaYaga 15301]

1 minute ago, Cajun said:

Damn, Rand Paul and Fauci just went full Thunderdome on each other a few minutes ago.

DAYUM!

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Damn, Rand Paul and Fauci just went full Thunderdome on each other a few minutes ago.
DAYUM!

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Our case fatality rates are fairly middle of the road if not lower tier. But we do have a shit load of cases. 

Because we've done a shitload of testing. Those curves are amazing in their similarity. It's almost like the "virus is gonna virus" regardless.

[dcar00 14276]

27 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

India’s going to pass us in cases like we’re standing still in the next month with half of the deaths. What are they recording differently than we are?


I will say our “bloody Tuesday” death was down about 25% from a week ago.

Let's just say that the country wide communication in India for 1.4B people isn't stellar. I'm sure their numbers are much higher.

[BradInATX 9208]

7 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

It's almost like the "virus is gonna virus" regardless.

 

This is one of the worst takes on this entire thread full of bad takes. Your contention is that there is nothing we can do as a society to slow down spread of the virus? That everything is for naught?

[dcar00 14276]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

 

This is one of the worst takes on this entire thread full of bad takes. Your contention is that there is nothing we can do as a society to slow down spread of the virus? That everything is for naught?

some of it are for naught.  some of it is naught. or maybe... "Rnaught"?

[BradInATX 9208]

54 minutes ago, Hefeweizen said:

Has this thing gone away yet?  Now we have new stats showing that less than 50 percent of the population is willing to get vaccinated with the first available vaccine.  So we’re not going to get herd immunity either apparently.

To be honest unless my doctor assures me it’s safe I won’t take it either.

Even 70% (efficacy) of 50% (people that will get the first wave of the vaccine) is 35%. Throw another ~10%-ish on top of that for people who have already had it, and you're in the 40s. I don't know that it will squash it, but that's enough to significantly slow the spread, especially if the vaccines are going to front-line folks like healthcare, retail, etc. 

I do believe the herd immunity number is lower than originally thought. I think even getting to 40% immunity via vaccines and having had Covid prior is going to knock this thing way down. And people will trickle into the vaccine chute as well as it hopefully proves to be safe. I'm not going to take it day 1, but I'll take it 3 months afterwards. I think there's a lot of people in that boat. 

I'm hopeful.

[Captainant 27680]

It's pretty interesting - this exact convo just went down in Senate testimony w/ Dr's Fauci and Redfield. The infectious disease expert opinion is that it's not "community immunity" driving the drop in positivity in US hotspots like NY, but it's actually following social distancing and face covering guidelines recommended by the CDC. 

Same rhetoric being used to attack NY and boost Sweeden, too lol

[BradInATX 9208]

It's pretty interesting - this exact convo just went down in Senate testimony w/ Dr's Fauci and Redfield. The infectious disease expert opinion is that it's not "community immunity" driving the drop in positivity in US hotspots like NY, but it's actually following social distancing and face covering guidelines recommended by the CDC. 
Same rhetoric being used to attack NY and boost Sweeden, too lol

The head of Sweden's health services says that it's not herd immunity and yet "Sweden has herd immunity!" is constantly paraded around as fact by some here.

[Js1 85425]

Just now, BradInATX said:

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

It's pretty interesting - this exact convo just went down in Senate testimony w/ Dr's Fauci and Redfield. The infectious disease expert opinion is that it's not "community immunity" driving the drop in positivity in US hotspots like NY, but it's actually following social distancing and face covering guidelines recommended by the CDC. 
Same rhetoric being used to attack NY and boost Sweeden, too lol

Read more  

The head of Sweden's health services says that it's not herd immunity and yet "Sweden has herd immunity!" is constantly paraded around as fact by some here.

Fuck your facts! Feelings > facts 

[dcar00 14276]

sweden doesn't do masks. very likely they don't have herd immunity though.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

It's pretty interesting - this exact convo just went down in Senate testimony w/ Dr's Fauci and Redfield. The infectious disease expert opinion is that it's not "community immunity" driving the drop in positivity in US hotspots like NY, but it's actually following social distancing and face covering guidelines recommended by the CDC. 
Same rhetoric being used to attack NY and boost Sweeden, too lol

how a tiny area of the country that consists of about 50,000,000 people, 9 different metros all using mass public transit and not only work but live in close proximity to not have a single outbreak in 4 months is nothing short of a miracle

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

how a tiny area of the country that consists of about 50,000,000 people, 9 different metros all using mass public transit and not only work but live in close proximity to not have a single outbreak in 4 months is nothing short of a miracle

Or science. Obviously some amount of immunity is present. 

[Brisketexan 105158]

6 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Or science. Obviously some amount of immunity is present. 

Yeah, I don't think any honest answer doesn't acknowledge that surely both immunity and preventative measures are factors.  Shit, they're both factors even in places with a lower case count -- each person with immunity is an incremental reduction in potential transmission vectors.

That said, one factor (immunity vs. preventative measures) is surely the bigger driver in any given area.  

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

That said, one factor (immunity vs. preventative measures) is surely the bigger driver in any given area. 

Or both are important and create an exponential driver.

[Brisketexan 105158]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Or both are important and create an exponential driver.

Maybe.

Here's the challenge: sound science requires good data, and objective study.  That's even harder when the data sets (infected people, immune people, people wearing masks) are wildly moving targets.  It's one of the things that pisses me off when folks keep saying "see, the scientists got it wrong!"  No, in most cases, science was working within the constraints that real-world conditions imposed on it.

Science is much more effective in after-the-fact analysis -- when the data sets are known and established, as opposed to moving targets.  When a scientific event of previously unknown mechanism is unfolding, sound decision making is guided by science, but also by a shitload of educated guesses overlaid with agreed-upon policy goals.  Really, it's better at ruling some things out than coming up with a single definitive answer.

[workswithseed 2112]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

We have ~16% over age 65. China about 11%. The rest of the top 10 most populous countries single digits. 

Damn.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Science is much more effective in after-the-fact analysis

100%. We don't have the full scope of this virus and yet everyone is an expert on "what we did wrong" or "Sweden nailed it". 

[Pato del Muerto 52529]

There’s definitely a GIGO component, as various data sources are varying degrees of consistent or reliable. All the more reason for an aggressive policy. Better to have and not need, right?

[BrazilHorn 6616]

Here are some obesity rates: (BMI >30). (From WHO's web site)

USA: 37.3%

China: 6.6%

Japan: 4.4%

We are a nation of fat people. I could easily find a ton of links from pre-Covid time that were around how being fat was ok and fat shaming evil, and how you could be fat and still be healthy etc etc etc

The thing is if you are fat and catch CV19 you have a MUCH higher chance of dying than if you are not fat and catch it. As the US is just full of people stuffing their faces with fast food and using scooters and extendable ass wipers it should be no shock that more people in the US are dying from CV19 than in places where everything isn't "supersized" and people actually eat vegetables every now and then.

By no means am I saying the US didn't fuck this up. Not fully protecting nursing homes is one key mistake (NY State sent 6,300 recovering CV19 patients into nursing homes for fuck's sake), not stopping air travel MUCH sooner, not having a national mask rule, not being clearer, faster on just who tends to die from this (82% >60 years old eg, impacts of obesity). etc etc

A new study was just released that aggregated multiple other studies as shows across these multiple studies (totaling 399,000 patients) that obese people are 113% more likely to land in a hospital with CV19, 74% more likely to land in ICU & 48% more likely to die (even if younger).

Maybe this will be wakeup call the USA needs to get healthy again. 

[Guest Lobo]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/23/politics/deborah-birx-white-house-task-force/index.html

No CR because she's a scientist and sometimes, medical experts should have a say in public health policy.  

Also, I find this virus to be quite shifty.  And I don't care for it, not one bit! 

[BradInATX 9208]

32 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

100%. We don't have the full scope of this virus and yet everyone is an expert on "what we did wrong" or "Sweden nailed it". 

The only ones on this thread that purport to know exactly what happened in Sweden are you and the "masks don't do anything!!" crowd.

[Scary Stranger 1715]

9 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

Here are some obesity rates: (BMI >30). (From WHO's web site)

USA: 37.3%

China: 6.6%

Japan: 4.4%

We are a nation of fat people. I could easily find a ton of links from pre-Covid time that were around how being fat was ok and fat shaming evil, and how you could be fat and still be healthy etc etc etc

The thing is if you are fat and catch CV19 you have a MUCH higher chance of dying than if you are not fat and catch it. As the US is just full of people stuffing their faces with fast food and using scooters and extendable ass wipers it should be no shock that more people in the US are dying from CV19 than in places where everything isn't "supersized" and people actually eat vegetables every now and then.

By no means am I saying the US didn't fuck this up. Not fully protecting nursing homes is one key mistake (NY State sent 6,300 recovering CV19 patients into nursing homes for fuck's sake), not stopping air travel MUCH sooner, not having a national mask rule, not being clearer, faster on just who tends to die from this (82% >60 years old eg, impacts of obesity). etc etc

A new study was just released that aggregated multiple other studies as shows across these multiple studies (totaling 399,000 patients) that obese people are 113% more likely to land in a hospital with CV19, 74% more likely to land in ICU & 48% more likely to die (even if younger).

Maybe this will be wakeup call the USA needs to get healthy again. 

Yeah, good luck with that.  That will hurt the fatties feelings and we can't have that.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Double

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

The only ones on this thread that purport to know exactly what happened in Sweden are you and the "masks don't do anything!!" crowd.

It’s how you perceive things. I mask indoors everywhere whether my state MN has a mask mandate or doesn’t (ND). One could say so far that my states 6 week mandate has done anything but lower the daily cases.

Obviously everything has to do with getting 100% of the public to comply. But if I’m indoors 6 feet away from an infected person and we’re both masked, I sure as hell don’t feel good about my chances if he starts coughing.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

28 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

The only ones on this thread that purport to know exactly what happened in Sweden are you and the "masks don't do anything!!" crowd.

Please point to that post, smart guy. Oh..you can't. Can you? Nah. because you are a shit talking troll. 

[BradInATX 9208]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Please point to that post, smart guy. Oh..you can't. Can you? Nah. because you are a shit talking troll. 

Uh, why don't you just scroll up to like 20 posts ago where you wrote that the virus is going to run it's course no matter what we do. " I feel like the virus is going to do what the virus is going to do..." - your words.

I might be a shit talker, but holding you accountable for your previous dumb ass statements isn't trolling. If you're going to make stupid, low-effort comments, you're going to have to defend them. 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by BradInATX

[Captainant 27680]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Please point to that post, smart guy. Oh..you can't. Can you? Nah. because you are a shit talking troll. 

Is this just what y'all do now? If you don't like a posters point you just call them a troll? That's some weak shit, my dude. 

Nevermind your proclivity for posting factually challenged information.

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Is this just what y'all do now? If you don't like a posters point you just call them a troll? That's some weak shit, my dude. 

Nevermind your proclivity for posting factually challenged information.

This guy is one of the top two or three drive-by, low-effort posters on this thread and he's calling people trolls. lmao.

[Hefeweizen 5328]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Maybe.

Here's the challenge: sound science requires good data, and objective study.  That's even harder when the data sets (infected people, immune people, people wearing masks) are wildly moving targets.  It's one of the things that pisses me off when folks keep saying "see, the scientists got it wrong!"  No, in most cases, science was working within the constraints that real-world conditions imposed on it.

Science is much more effective in after-the-fact analysis -- when the data sets are known and established, as opposed to moving targets.  When a scientific event of previously unknown mechanism is unfolding, sound decision making is guided by science, but also by a shitload of educated guesses overlaid with agreed-upon policy goals.  Really, it's better at ruling some things out than coming up with a single definitive answer.

Nah, fuck that noise.  Science is hard and makes the brain hurt, plus it takes longer than reading a tweet or fb post.  Sweden gave us the path forward a long time ago and who cares if people die a little sooner than their time?  Plus this should help with our social security deficit in a few years, especially if we can kill a few more olds.

[pearlandhorn 3274]

38 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

Here are some obesity rates: (BMI >30). (From WHO's web site)

USA: 37.3%

China: 6.6%

Japan: 4.4%

We are a nation of fat people. I could easily find a ton of links from pre-Covid time that were around how being fat was ok and fat shaming evil, and how you could be fat and still be healthy etc etc etc

The thing is if you are fat and catch CV19 you have a MUCH higher chance of dying than if you are not fat and catch it. As the US is just full of people stuffing their faces with fast food and using scooters and extendable ass wipers it should be no shock that more people in the US are dying from CV19 than in places where everything isn't "supersized" and people actually eat vegetables every now and then.

By no means am I saying the US didn't fuck this up. Not fully protecting nursing homes is one key mistake (NY State sent 6,300 recovering CV19 patients into nursing homes for fuck's sake), not stopping air travel MUCH sooner, not having a national mask rule, not being clearer, faster on just who tends to die from this (82% >60 years old eg, impacts of obesity). etc etc

A new study was just released that aggregated multiple other studies as shows across these multiple studies (totaling 399,000 patients) that obese people are 113% more likely to land in a hospital with CV19, 74% more likely to land in ICU & 48% more likely to die (even if younger).

Maybe this will be wakeup call the USA needs to get healthy again. 

We’re a fat country. As someone who has lost 130 pounds and went from 300+ to the 180s, I get pissed when I hear people say they can’t do anything about their weight. Being overweight has such an impact on your health in ways you can’t even imagine. Lower risk of literally every illness. Yet, people still keep shoveling shit food in their mouths and being lazy as shit.

Yes, we fucked up our response to COVID, but there are so many things that came before that we’ve fucked up (consuming fast food, not exercising). People are taking the easy way out and blaming the public health officials over not doing their job when in actuality, it’s their own fault if they die or not, or even get sick of not.

[BradInATX 9208]

Now this dude is negging me instead of actually trying to defend his stupid ass "virus gonna virus" stance. What a pussy.