Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[Brisketexan 105139]

1 minute ago, Kyle said:

I don't really disagree with you. As noted earlier, it will be a long time before we have a true picture. Reasonable people can have diverse opinions. I bias toward most of the people that would need papers are low mortality risk. If you want to play hypothetical we don't know the long-term effects of the vaccines either. If your scared of it you're welcome to stay home or wear a mask, which as we know will keep you from getting it. Hence what's the point of papers?

We know that COVID actually kills and seriously injures people.

We have actual studies showing that, thus far (and we're a year in on many of these studies) COVID vaccines don't cause any material injury.

Sure, anything is possible.   But the numbers game here isn't even close.  And the people who need papers issue isn't whether those people might get seriously ill and die alone (that's part of it -- they aren't likely to get sick on my property, so that's good for me, the property owner), it's also whether they will transmit it to others at my property (as we're rapidly finding out what we expected -- being vaccinated means you are very unlikely to transmit anything).  The point of papers is to fully and freely open commerce in a way that puts business owners at ease, and puts much of the population/customers at ease.  It's a good and effective point.

[Anastasis 23469]

7 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Brad is so tied up in fucking knots that all he has left are ad hominem attacks.  What a cock bag.

It's pretty amazing to watch unfold.  Not the first time either.  It's always his last fall back. There is a lot of projection baked in as well.  It's really too bad cause he is really capable of better. 

[GRHorn 105]

A good piece why it’s a bad idea. It’s paywalled but here.  
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/stop-the-vaccine-passport-revenge-fantasy/

Spoiler

Let’s be absolutely clear. Even if you put aside all the privacy and constitutional concerns, vaccine passports do not allow us to reopen the economy faster. Instituting a massive bio-surveillance system would be a hugely costly security fence to wrap around the world. Many people imagine it would “open things up.” In fact, the first thing it would do is close things down, because it bars people from doing things they’ve already been doing throughout the pandemic: shopping, traveling, gathering together, attending weddings and funerals. You would be instituting new and harsher restrictions at the very time the pandemic was ending.

Second, we have no way of knowing right now whether such a system really facilitates people “reentering” normal life. By raising the costs in privacy for booking a hotel, a venue, a flight, or an Uber, we are likely to in discourage precisely the kind of economic and social activity a healthy society needs.
 

Third, even if you could institute such a surveillance system, it would also bar people who — for whatever reason — can’t access the vaccine, not just the anti-vaxxers who deserve punishing. They might be children, or women who are pregnant and following the advice of many authorities who don’t recommend the vaccine. It would disproportionately bar people who, for whatever reason, don’t have easy access to medical care — because they are distressed by poverty, or because they are illegal immigrants, or who just can’t get it together to get both shots at the appropriate times, or because they don’t trust the medical system. Recall the sympathy many liberals have for African Americans who express vaccine hesitancy due to mistreatment. Puerto Ricans might have a similar cultural memory about experimental drug testing (though that’s never mentioned these days).

One other note. This is absolutely the wrong battle to choose with anti-vaxxers. Trying to institute a kind of medical rider to the Bill of Rights is very likely to fail in courts if tested seriously. Trying to do so on a disease that is not particularly fatal to the young and healthy is almost a surefire way to lose. Anti-anti-vaxxers will end up establishing a precedent that will make overcoming vaccine “hesitancy” even harder if we should ever suffer a worse pandemic.

The pandemic exacerbated and generated immense resentments in America. Resentments at lockdowns for lost earnings, dreams deferred, and even lives lost due to depression and overdose. And resentments over lost loved ones, or the length of lockdowns, or at those who could conceivably have done more to stop the spread but did not. I think the drive for instituting vaccine passports at the end of the pandemic is carried by this resentment — an attempt to “single out” people and mete out punishment. After a certain level, possibly long before we run into “vaccine hesitancy” — we are likely to see transmission drop to a level that signals the end of the pandemic. A threshold we’ll likely meet even if not everyone gets vaccinated, as Harvard Medical school professor (now inexplicably flagged by Twitter) 

Martin Kulldorff explained:

 

All our history books suggest that after the great influenza, people didn’t talk about it or dwell on it. This may be the reason why.

 

 

[GRHorn 105]

Here’s the tweet from that article that you cannot share because Twitter has deemed it disinformation. From professor at Harvard Medical school that focuses on infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety. But the midlevel Twitter hacks with ridiculous power flagged it. Quite bizarre. 
 

 

[BradInATX 9208]

Bruh

[BradInATX 9208]

This thread is dangerously close to people launching themselves up into the sky to prove that the earth doesn't curve

[Anastasis 23469]

4 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

This thread is dangerously close to people launching themselves up into the sky to prove that the earth doesn't curve

Maybe from that elevated position you will be able to find your 50% under reporting of deaths in florida. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

I still haven’t gotten a response from the people who refuse to get a vaccine. Why are you willing to take the chance of unknown long term health effects of covid but aren’t willing to chance any unknown long term health effects of the vaccine?

[mdleast 8291]

Because they are all sudden medical experts...on just this one particular medical issue. Makes sense, huh?

[BradInATX 9208]

I still haven’t gotten a response from the people who refuse to get a vaccine. Why are you willing to take the chance of unknown long term health effects of covid but aren’t willing to chance any unknown long term health effects of the vaccine?

Their periods sync up though

[Ridingtosunset 129]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

I still haven’t gotten a response from the people who refuse to get a vaccine. Why are you willing to take the chance of unknown long term health effects of covid but aren’t willing to chance any unknown long term health effects of the vaccine?

If I'm under 50, in relatively good health, the risk of Covid being severe to me is statistically miniscule. That someone would choose to wait given their overwhelming odds of this virus not affecting them shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. It's basic risk analysis...

[BradInATX 9208]

If I'm under 50, in relatively good health,

Nobody who is actually in good health says this. Take your fat ass to get a shot.

[Anastasis 23469]

5 minutes ago, Ridingtosunset said:

If I'm under 50, in relatively good health, the risk of Covid being severe to me is statistically miniscule.

Even less miniscule is the risk of vaccination resulting in a severe adverse event.  But the upside is individual immunity and contribution to herd immunity, which not only serves to protect unvaccinated high risk individuals that are vax eligible but also the many high risk individuals that may not be protected by vaccines or are ineligible such as the immunocompromised and children. Population level risk analysis... 

[Ridingtosunset 129]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

 

 

Nobody who is actually in good health says this. Take your fat ass to get a shot.

 

Good enough. I've had it, one rough day, one week of feeling like I had a cold. Why wouldn't I let the vaccine data play out. I probable still have antibodies, my immune system handled it. We have much more data on the virus than we do the vaccine. Everyone's decision is made under different circumstances. Vaccine shaming or whatever is fucking silly. 

I do need to lose about 20lbs, though. You got me there. 

[Ridingtosunset 129]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Even less miniscule is the risk of vaccination resulting in a severe adverse event.  But the upside is individual immunity and contribution to herd immunity, which not only serves to protect unvaccinated high risk individuals that are vax eligible but also the many high risk individuals that may not be protected by vaccines or are ineligible such as the immunocompromised and children. Population level risk analysis... 

The high risk need to get vaxed. I still social distance outside of my close circle. I wear a mask most places. The number of children affected by this is statistically 0.000. 

[BradInATX 9208]

Good enough. I've had it, one rough day, one week of feeling like I had a cold. Why wouldn't I let the vaccine data play out. I probable still have antibodies, my immune system handled it. We have much more data on the virus than we do the vaccine. Everyone's decision is made under different circumstances. Vaccine shaming or whatever is fucking silly. 
I do need to lose about 20lbs, though. You got me there. 

The Covid 20 is going to outlive the Covid 19.

[Captainant 27669]

[Ridingtosunset 129]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

4 minutes ago, Ridingtosunset said:

Good enough. I've had it, one rough day, one week of feeling like I had a cold. Why wouldn't I let the vaccine data play out. I probable still have antibodies, my immune system handled it. We have much more data on the virus than we do the vaccine. Everyone's decision is made under different circumstances. Vaccine shaming or whatever is fucking silly. 
I do need to lose about 20lbs, though. You got me there. 

The Covid 20 is going to outlive the Covid 19.

Unfortunately. The only thing I appreciate from the lockdown is now owning lots of sweatpants. 

[Ridingtosunset 129]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Is this directed at muwha? 

[BradInATX 9208]

Honestly man, sunset is obviously a retread and probably someone I've gone at it with before, but if you've had covid or a vaccine it's time to get back to normal. It's pretty bad ass.

[Anastasis 23469]

2 minutes ago, Ridingtosunset said:

The high risk need to get vaxed.

Nobody disagrees with this.  Literally nobody. But broad vaccination is necessary. By vaccinating, even if you are low risk, you are not only significantly reducing your own risk of disease...you are reducing the risk of disease for everyone around you. There are lots of extenuating circumstances where high risk people are not able to vax, whether access related issues or issues where we don't have good line of sight into vax efficacy/safety in specific subgroups.  You are not only helping yourself by getting vaxed, you are helping them. You are literally helping the people that cannot help themselves for reasons you nor I may fully appreciate. 

[Ridingtosunset 129]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

Honestly man, sunset is obviously a retread and probably someone I've gone at it with before, but if you've had covid or a vaccine it's time to get back to normal. It's pretty bad ass.

That's twice you've said that now. I've followed the board for awhile, but never posted. The Stonk and Penny Stonk threads finally got me posting. 

I ASSure you I'm not into pegging, but I am willing to learn. Would they send me some place special? 

What the fuck is up with you? Doesn't this site want new members, posters, and traffic. I don't post in CR, because you fucking loons would crowd source me because I don't think like you and I don't have the rep to survive. And I like this place, great site with lots of knowledge, diversity, and differing opinons. I'm not a sock. I just don't agree with you. I think a grown man should be able to deal with that. 

[DDD Dad 14339]

It violates HIPAA for one.

You know how I know you have no idea what you’re talking about?

[GRHorn 105]

Would it be ok if everyone had an ID that said if they were HIV or Hepatitis C positive? 

[Ridingtosunset 129]

25 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 or issues where we don't have good line of sight into vax efficacy/safety in specific subgroups.  

Again everyone has their own set of circumstances affecting the decision. 

[BradInATX 9208]

What the fuck is up with you? Doesn't this site want new members, posters, and traffic. I don't post in CR, because you fucking loons would crowd source me because I don't think like you and I don't have the rep to survive. And I like this place, great site with lots of knowledge, diversity, and differing opinons. I'm not a sock. I just don't agree with you. I think a grown man should be able to deal with that. 

The fuck is up with me? I don't care about traffic. I'll never neg rep you either, you fat bastard. I'm on record in the CR as being anti-neg. Some reasonable posters have been run off. I like GRhorn and DonkeyCigars and even immortal sometimes.

Basically, you can suck my balls guy

[atomheartbevo 89668]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

This thread is dangerously close to people launching themselves up into the sky to prove that the earth doesn't curve

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

I still haven’t gotten a response from the people who refuse to get a vaccine. 

Conversation with an in-law a few days ago, while trying to get them signed up for a vaccine: "NO, NO JOHNSON AND JOHNSON THEY ARE MAKING THEIR VACCINES OUT OF ABORTED FETUSES, THEY WOULD BE INJECTING ABORTED FETUSES INTO ME!"

 

[Anastasis 23469]

28 minutes ago, Ridingtosunset said:

That's twice you've said that now. I've followed the board for awhile, but never posted. The Stonk and Penny Stonk threads finally got me posting. 

I ASSure you I'm not into pegging, but I am willing to learn. Would they send me some place special? 

What the fuck is up with you? Doesn't this site want new members, posters, and traffic. I don't post in CR, because you fucking loons would crowd source me because I don't think like you and I don't have the rep to survive. And I like this place, great site with lots of knowledge, diversity, and differing opinons. I'm not a sock. I just don't agree with you. I think a grown man should be able to deal with that. 

It's Brad dude.  He has become particularly unhinged on this thread over the last few months. 

[Anastasis 23469]

11 minutes ago, Ridingtosunset said:

Again everyone has their own set of circumstances affecting the decision. 

Totally agree, as long as the inputs into the risk benefit analysis are balanced and rational. 

[BradInATX 9208]

Conversation with an in-law a few days ago, while trying to get them signed up for a vaccine: "NO, NO JOHNSON AND JOHNSON THEY ARE MAKING THEIR VACCINES OUT OF ABORTED FETUSES, THEY WOULD BE INJECTING ABORTED FETUSES INTO ME!"
 

One of my old salespeople lives in Garland, super Trumpy, thinks the election was stolen and all that, and only wanted J&J because it's "traditional". Whatever, put that shit in your shoulder.

[Neonmoon 38129]

1 hour ago, Ridingtosunset said:

Good enough. I've had it, one rough day, one week of feeling like I had a cold. Why wouldn't I let the vaccine data play out. I probable still have antibodies, my immune system handled it. We have much more data on the virus than we do the vaccine. Everyone's decision is made under different circumstances. Vaccine shaming or whatever is fucking silly. 

I do need to lose about 20lbs, though. You got me there. 

Do we? For short term, we have what, a year’s worth more of data? Which shows the vaccines prevent disease without any problems and the virus causes disease, some severe, most not. What we don’t have data on for either is long term effects. In 15 years from now, will covid positive people be more likely to develop cancer? Kidney disease? You could ask the same for the vaccine. My point being if you’re going to choose between two unknowns, why wouldn’t you choose the one designed to help you, and not the one designed to hurt you. 

I mean it doesn’t matter anyway since you already had the virus, but just curious to the line of thinking someone who hasn’t and still refuses to get vaxxed. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

I love when there’s 20+ new posts in this thread since you last read it that officer Brad is in the middle of it telling someone to suck his balls

[GreenspointTexas 9602]

9 hours ago, GRHorn said:

Would it be ok if everyone had an ID that said if they were HIV or Hepatitis C positive? 

HIV and Hep C are transmitted through the air?

 

 

seriously, im gonna drive drunk everywhere. I usually drive drunk and am prolly not gonna be a harm to other cars on the road. You dont wanna drive on the road with a drunk driver? Dont drive. Everyone has to make their own life decisions. Im going to be pissed if someone has to give me a sobriety test. Im usually a really good drunk driver, so the odds of anything happening to me are negligible

[utee94 15823]

8 hours ago, BradInATX said:

8 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Conversation with an in-law a few days ago, while trying to get them signed up for a vaccine: "NO, NO JOHNSON AND JOHNSON THEY ARE MAKING THEIR VACCINES OUT OF ABORTED FETUSES, THEY WOULD BE INJECTING ABORTED FETUSES INTO ME!"
 

One of my old salespeople lives in Garland, super Trumpy, thinks the election was stolen and all that, and only wanted J&J because it's "traditional". Whatever, put that shit in your shoulder.

I don't think you need to be "super trumpy" to be more comfortable with the traditional style of vaccine.  It's actually great that J&J is available and able to assuage the fears of some. 

Personally I want the "good stuff" coming from the double shots.  And if the mRNA alters my DNA, it's likely for the better.

Bottom line though, as you said-- no matter which brand you get, put that shit in your shoulder, and let's Make Memorial Day Great Again.

 

[StruggleBus 3922]

J&J isn’t a traditional vaccine. But whatever.

[Don Johnson 4753]

CDC updates travel guidelines for fully vaccinated. Did you have to get a test before after flying domestically?  If not, what changed?

 

[gmr548 16580]

Would it be ok if everyone had an ID that said if they were HIV or Hepatitis C positive? 

I’m pretty meh on a vaccine passport program of any kind but y’all’s dumbfuck arguments against it are getting me there.

[gmr548 16580]

It's basic risk analysis...

This is America; you want to be an anti vaxxer, go for it. That’s your right and no one can take it away. But don’t frame it like this, because it’s wholly unsupported and does not make you look smart the way you want it to.

[safe sex 11727]

Holy fucking shit at comparing HIV/AIDS to COVID. Only a fucking quack chiropractor could come up with tha...oh. 

[Homercles 10205]

Gotta love a thread where Greens “ballgame” Point is the voice of reason wherein HIV/HepC is not airborne like Covid.  

[JimmyJames 12271]

12 hours ago, GRHorn said:

Would it be ok if everyone had an ID that said if they were HIV or Hepatitis C positive? 

Wow. Even for you this is a dumb one. Maybe you should use all of your supposedly specialized medical knowledge honed in the winter wonderland of San Antonio to try to figure out what’s different between Covid, HIV and hepatitis C. 

[GRHorn 105]

27 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Wow. Even for you this is a dumb one. Maybe you should use all of your supposedly specialized medical knowledge honed in the winter wonderland of San Antonio to try to figure out what’s different between Covid, HIV and hepatitis C. 

It’s more that it’s personal health info. A communicable disease although far less so. 
 

I’m honestly surprised that people are going for this. It such an obvious thing that is rolled out under “emergency” pretenses, but never rolled back, and ultimately expanded. 

[topochico 1049]

13 hours ago, GRHorn said:

Would it be ok if everyone had an ID that said if they were HIV or Hepatitis C positive? 

Are you seriously in the field of medicine? This is not even in the same ballpark of discussion.  If someone is HIV or Hep C positive, they should absolutely disclose that to anyone they could potentially infect before they engage in sexual activities/needle sharing etc. That's just basic common decency for a fellow human. It's also the law in several states. I am sure you would be plenty upset if one of your patients was HIV+ and purposely lied to you about their status after you got a needle stick or eye splash while caring for them. 

The HIPPA/personal health info arguments amuse me too. People can voluntarily allow anyone to have access to their healthcare information. If you allow the surgeon to talk with your wife about how the procedure went, it doesn't violate HIPPA. Showing your vaccine passport to avoid an unnecessary COVID test or quarantine with travel would be exactly that. Voluntary disclosure. 

People have the right to skip the vaccine. Businesses have the right to afford privileges to people who choose to become vaccinated and voluntarily disclose that information for said benefits. The Miami Heat just want to generate ticket sales. If a vaccine allows them to put 200 people in a section vs 30, go for it. If you don't want the vaccine or don't want your medical information disclosed, go sit in section 220 instead. Your body, your choice. Their arena, their choice. Now, if they do decide to allow a group sex event in the American Airlines Arena, they should probably ask for the HIV ID that you propose. 



 

Edited April 3, 2021 by topochico

[DDD Dad 14339]

8 minutes ago, topochico said:

Are you seriously in the field of medicine? This is not even in the same ballpark of discussion.  If someone is HIV or Hep C positive, they should absolutely disclose that to anyone they could potentially infect before they engage in sexual activities/needle sharing etc. That's just basic common decency for a fellow human. It's also the law in several states. I am sure you would be plenty upset if one of your patients was HIV+ and purposely lied to you about their status after you got a needle stick or eye splash while caring for them. 

The HIPPA/personal health info arguments amuse me too. People can voluntarily allow anyone to have access to their healthcare information. If you allow the surgeon to talk with your wife about how the procedure went, it doesn't violate HIPPA. Showing your vaccine passport to avoid an unnecessary COVID test or quarantine with travel would be exactly that. Voluntary disclosure. 

People have the right to skip the vaccine. Businesses have the right to afford privileges to people who choose to become vaccinated and voluntarily disclose that information for said benefits. The Miami Heat just want to generate ticket sales. If a vaccine allows them to put 200 people in a section vs 30, go for it. If you don't want the vaccine or don't want your medical information disclosed, go sit in section 220 instead. Your body, your choice. Their arena, their choice. Now, if they do decide to allow a group sex event in the American Airlines Arena, they should probably ask for the HIV ID that you propose. 



 

HIPAA

[DDD Dad 14339]

18 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

It’s more that it’s personal health info. A communicable disease although far less so. 
 

I’m honestly surprised that people are going for this. It such an obvious thing that is rolled out under “emergency” pretenses, but never rolled back, and ultimately expanded. 

[topochico 1049]

4 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

HIPAA

You are correct. 2A's 1 P. 

[workswithseed 2107]

1 hour ago, topochico said:

Are you seriously in the field of medicine? This is not even in the same ballpark of discussion.  If someone is HIV or Hep C positive, they should absolutely disclose that to anyone they could potentially infect before they engage in sexual activities/needle sharing etc. That's just basic common decency for a fellow human. 


 

https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/blog/laws/do-i-have-to-tell-a-sexual-partner-that-i-am-hiv-positive-in-california/

Penal Code 120290 is California’s law on willful exposure to an infectious disease. PC 120290 makes it a misdemeanor to have unprotected sex without telling a partner of an STD – but only if the intention is to infect the other person.

If the person is actually infected as a result of the intentional HIV exposure, PC 120290 can be punished by:

Up to 6 months in jail, and/or

A fine of up to $1,000.

[Kyle 207]

22 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I still haven’t gotten a response from the people who refuse to get a vaccine. Why are you willing to take the chance of unknown long term health effects of covid but aren’t willing to chance any unknown long term health effects of the vaccine?

I can tell you how I process it. The infection mortality rate in my metro is 0.075%. Given my physical profile, altruistically I am happy to let others go ahead. I would consider whether the adverse event rate of the vaccine would be +/- 0.075%.

[Pato del Muerto 52498]

2 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I can tell you how I process it. The infection mortality rate in my metro is 0.075%. Given my physical profile, altruistically I am happy to let others go ahead. I would consider whether the adverse event rate of the vaccine would be +/- 0.075%.

The mortality rate of the vaccine is zero as far as I am aware. Why are you comparing deaths from the disease to “adverse event rate” of the vaccine?  Either compare mortality rates or compare adverse event rates.  

[Kyle 207]

39 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The mortality rate of the vaccine is zero as far as I am aware. Why are you comparing deaths from the disease to “adverse event rate” of the vaccine?  Either compare mortality rates or compare adverse event rates.  

Because as I noted clearly in English this is my calculus. Adjusted for inputs my mortality risk is basically 0%.