Formerly DT: COVID-19 - Featuring Lots of Politics, now CR because political talk not going away

[bolverk 29820]

22 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

What difference would all the toughest measures had made? Well the “best” performing Western European country was Germany. They were often cited for how well they were doing. They ranked 42nd and had 1,055 deaths per million. We ended up 16th with 1,792 deaths per million. Actually did better than the UK. In the same neighborhood as most of Western Europe. If we got down to German performance with all their measures we would’ve still had 346,000 dead. So better but still a large amount.

Now do our next door neighbor, Canada. You know, the country that's probably the most similar to ours with the same geographic advantages. They had the same head-up, advanced warning that we did when things started going to shit in Western Europe. What was their death rate per million? If we had performed as well as them, what would've been our death toll?

[bad_teammate 13302]

31 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

If one of “Trump’s Virus Labs” had released this to the world this board would be screaming about how horrible we were as a nation. Throwing ourselves at the mercy of the court, suggesting punishments for ourselves. 

And this is the real issue with right-wingers. Literally every single thing that happens in the universe is political grievance. From the birth of a child to the viral death of an elderly person, ALL of it goes straight through the lens of political grievance.

And if none legitimately exist, just imagine them and then move forward with the imagined oppression as if it is real.

Beyond fucking pathetic.

[Goredho 17511]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

So, here’s the real deal. We’ve discussed this when the thread was on DT so y’all may have missed it. 
 

Trump could’ve done much better. There’s two basic things that he really botched that could’ve made a difference. 1-Shutting down Euro air traffic at same time as China. Our country was being seeded with Covid the whole time and we didn’t know it. 2- more strongly encourage mask usage. This is obvious. 
 

What difference would all the toughest measures had made? Well the “best” performing Western European country was Germany. They were often cited for how well they were doing. They ranked 42nd and had 1,055 deaths per million. We ended up 16th with 1,792 deaths per million. Actually did better than the UK. In the same neighborhood as most of Western Europe. If we got down to German performance with all their measures we would’ve still had 346,000 dead. So better but still a large amount.
 

Some posters here try to act like any number of deaths above zero was directly attributable to one person or political party. That’s just not true. 

Covid was a global calamity and it’s looking more and more like it was visited on the world because of Chinese incompetence. What should be the repercussions for that? I don’t know, but to act like it’s inconsequential to know how this happened is a strange position to me.
 

If one of “Trump’s Virus Labs” had released this to the world this board would be screaming about how horrible we were as a nation. Throwing ourselves at the mercy of the court, suggesting punishments for ourselves. 

This is the best post I’ve seen from you in the political forum.  As for your recap of DT political points, I must have missed it because I was discussing the intertwined political aspects of the pandemic response in the political forum.  Mea culpa?

Congrats for acknowledging failures were made.  I wish Trump were capable of the same.  If he could have done so publicly, it would have gone a long way to establishing trust with people who weren’t enamored with him.

I agree there would always have been deaths, but we had 41% more deaths than Germany according to your numbers.  140,000 more dead.  More than the number that died in the Vietnam War.  To act like that many dead Americans is inconsequential is a strange position to me.  Lucky for the US, voters seemed to agree with me.

I am 100% with you on China facing consequences if their incompetence is to blame for the virus entering the human population.  I don’t know what those consequences should be, either.  Has there ever been a similar international incident for precedent?  Or are we in uncharted waters there?

As for your last paragraph, I can’t speak for everyone else, but if a global pandemic were unleashed from the US due to some human error or mismanagement, I would demand those responsible be held accountable.  Whether or not that had anything to do with a government official would depend entirely on the facts related to the incident that could only be obtained through scrutiny.  Which is why I personally avoid voting for government officials who abhor having their leadership and management scrutinized.  Your mileage obviously varies.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Goredho

[Guest Lobo]

27 minutes ago, hornmpa96 said:

“If it wasn’t for the testing, we wouldn’t have so many cases.”

Donald J Trump, Dumbass

I still think about that from time to time.  Anybody and everybody that has to spend that much time speaking in public is gonna make a number of gaffes.  But that one was just truly mesmerizing.  Not because of how awful it sounds when you say it out loud, but when you watch him say it, you can genuinely see that it's not fatigue (he played golf the day before) or exhaustion or a curveball question that generated the response.  His brain literally and cognitively thinks that the reason so many people have Covid is because he made so many tests available to them.  The reason so many babies are born is because there are so many pregnancy tests.  The reason there is so much cancer is because we have so many mammogram machines.  Any of these would hold true in his brain, that's just how it's wired.  

I don't think he's as much to blame for all the death and suffering as many on here think, but it was in that moment of this quote that I realized...whatever the faults of Fauci, the CDC, the WHO, even Pence were...they were far better than the efforts of Trump.  The man's brain literally did not fundamentally understand how viral spreads work and all hope I had he would help us out of this was abandoned.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

7 minutes ago, Goredho said:

As for your last paragraph, I can’t speak for everyone else, but if a global pandemic were unleashed from the US due to some human error or mismanagement, I would demand those responsible be held accountable.  Whether or not that had anything to do with a government official would depend entirely on the facts related to the incident that could only be obtained through scrutiny.  Which is why I personally avoid voting for government officials who abhor having their leadership and management scrutinized.  Your mileage obviously varies.

A page back, that $1 million dollar fine that HHS levied on Texas A&M in 2008 for their slipshod management of their biodefense lab I mentioned? As it happens, several low level labs were repeatedly inspected for ticky tacky little issues in the ensuing years. Because it is much easier to go for the low hanging fruit and spend time on that than tackle something that risks repeating that type of financial exposure and negative publicity. Which in the US is how a lot of things work if the culture is such that the risk of one is perceived as worse than the other.

 

[Goredho 17511]

1 minute ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

A page back, that $1 million dollar fine that HHS levied on Texas A&M in 2008 for their slipshod management of their biodefense lab I mentioned? As it happens, several low level labs were repeatedly inspected for ticky tacky little issues in the ensuing years. Because it is much easier to go for the low hanging fruit and spend time on that than tackle something that risks repeating that type of financial exposure and negative publicity. Which in the US is how a lot of things work if the culture is such that the risk of one is perceived as worse than the other.

 

Thanks.  I will go back and see what you wrote, but did that incident cause deaths internationally?  If this pandemic originated from a Chinese lab, China bears responsibility for inflicting a world-war equivalent death toll across 200+ nations.  I don’t know that we’ve seen something like that, at that scale, before?  I don’t know what consequence would be commensurate or who could enforce it.

The UN makes the most sense to handle something like this, but China would probably just tell them to pound dirt and then... what?

[bolverk 29820]

In Canada, they've had 35,898 deaths related to Covid, which comes out to 666!!! per million. If the US had achieved that ratio, we'd only have 222,000 and would've saved 383,000 lives.

Imagine that, Canada a country with 38,000,000 people (8 million more than Texas) had 15,000 fewer deaths than our great state.

Clearly, we could've done much much better.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

21 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Thanks.  I will go back and see what you wrote, but did that incident cause deaths internationally?  If this pandemic originated from a Chinese lab, China bears responsibility for inflicting a world-war equivalent death toll across 200+ nations.  I don’t know that we’ve seen something like that, at that scale, before?  I don’t know what consequence would be commensurate or who could enforce it.

The UN makes the most sense to handle something like this, but China would probably just tell them to pound dirt and then... what?

No, there were lab techs who fell ill, but no spread outside of the campus as far as I know. My point was more along the lines of the issues from the top down to the bottom up that make it difficult. In any country anywhere. Who wants to be the face of "I am responsible"? Very few people step up and do that. Some of that is perhaps the thought that wherever you live the consequences may cost you your life.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Mrs Whiggins

[Captainant 27972]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

Real goddamned testing and tracing would’ve helped. You know, the obvious way to contain any epidemic. You’d think a doctor would realize that.

... you do know that GRhorn isn't a doctor right? He's a fucking chiropractor. Professional back cracker who can get your chakras realigned

[Guest Lobo]

that makes sense, the handful of chiropractors I know are all die-hard Trumpkins.  

For the record, I think chiropractic care can help a lot of people.  I've used it myself from time to time, as has my wife.  But I would not take serious medical nor serious political advice from them.  Ever.  

[jimmyjazz 46477]

1 hour ago, GRHorn said:

Some posters here try to act like any number of deaths above zero was directly attributable to one person or political party.

That's a complete fabrication.  You just can't help yourself.

Let's be very clear:  Trump knew in February how bad this pandemic might get.  We have him on tape saying so.  Armed with that knowledge, he

-- downplayed the seriousness of covid-19 to the American people

-- indicated it would vanish within weeks

-- refused to advocate for masks and social distancing for months

-- failed to push for more effective national contract tracing efforts

-- hosted largely mask-free, packed campaign rallies in 14 cities over the summer.  Covid soon spiked in half of those cities.

-- started hosting indoor rallies in late September

-- contracted the virus himself, along with a good portion of his family and White House staff, because of his stubbornness

-- led a diminished (some would say botched) vaccine rollout that magically turned around after January 20, 2021

 

There is SO much blame that can be levied against Donald J. Trump.  That said, not one person I have ever encountered thinks he or the Republican Party is responsible for the deaths of every single American to pass from the disease, not even close. That's just another one of your fucking lies.  Negged (again).

[MNLonghornFUKM 8916]

This (former) safe space being tossed into CR is one of my favorite Surly developments.

I like it here. Should’ve made this move earlier. Reading grown ups typing tough about “safe spaces” and “come to CR” is hilarious. I’d be embarrassed if I ever told somebody else they’re too afraid of a certain part of a message board.

[GRHorn 105]

25 minutes ago, bolverk said:

In Canada, they've had 35,898 deaths related to Covid, which comes out to 666!!! per million. If the US had achieved that ratio, we'd only have 222,000 and would've saved 383,000 lives.

Imagine that, Canada a country with 38,000,000 people (8 million more than Texas) had 15,000 fewer deaths than our great state.

Clearly, we could've done much much better.

They’ve also been locked down much harder than us, in a manner that the US population would not have tolerated. 

[wildcat09 29453]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

I still think about that from time to time.  Anybody and everybody that has to spend that much time speaking in public is gonna make a number of gaffes.  But that one was just truly mesmerizing.  Not because of how awful it sounds when you say it out loud, but when you watch him say it, you can genuinely see that it's not fatigue (he played golf the day before) or exhaustion or a curveball question that generated the response.  His brain literally and cognitively thinks that the reason so many people have Covid is because he made so many tests available to them.  The reason so many babies are born is because there are so many pregnancy tests.  The reason there is so much cancer is because we have so many mammogram machines.  Any of these would hold true in his brain, that's just how it's wired.  

I don't think he's as much to blame for all the death and suffering as many on here think, but it was in that moment of this quote that I realized...whatever the faults of Fauci, the CDC, the WHO, even Pence were...they were far better than the efforts of Trump.  The man's brain literally did not fundamentally understand how viral spreads work and all hope I had he would help us out of this was abandoned.  

Not quite. Yes, that's what he said, but he said that because his brain is so broken he can't express himself correctly. What he meant was essentially "if we didn't have so many tests, the tv people would never know how many people have it." Because everything in his broken brain is processed through whether something gets tv coverage and he thinks that's the way the rest of our brains work too.  So even though he knew covid was already here by January, and knew that it was airborne in February, his only real response (no, limiting travel from China while saying you're banning it isn't a real response) was to adopt a strategy of pretending it wasn't happening. Because he thought pretending it wasn't happening would keep it off tv and as long as it was off tv nobody would care about it.  

[wildcat09 29453]

19 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

That's a complete fabrication.  You just can't help yourself.

Let's be very clear:  Trump knew in February how bad this pandemic might get.  We have him on tape saying so.  Armed with that knowledge, he

-- downplayed the seriousness of covid-19 to the American people

-- indicated it would vanish within weeks

-- refused to advocate for masks and social distancing for months

-- failed to push for more effective national contract tracing efforts

-- hosted largely mask-free, packed campaign rallies in 14 cities over the summer.  Covid soon spiked in half of those cities.

-- started hosting indoor rallies in late September

-- contracted the virus himself, along with a good portion of his family and White House staff, because of his stubbornness

-- led a diminished (some would say botched) vaccine rollout that magically turned around after January 20, 2021

 

There is SO much blame that can be levied against Donald J. Trump.  That said, not one person I have ever encountered thinks he or the Republican Party is responsible for the deaths of every single American to pass from the disease, not even close. That's just another one of your fucking lies.  Negged (again).

This is minimizing the harm he did. He didn't just refuse to advocate for masks and refuse to push for better tracing efforts, he actively hindered all efforts by others to do both.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I don't know whether to put this in the political political COVID thread or the nonpolitical political COVID thread, but it is important because disinfo has an enormous effect.

 

[jimmyjazz 46477]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This is minimizing the harm he did. He didn't just refuse to advocate for masks and refuse to push for better tracing efforts, he actively hindered all efforts by others to do both.

To some degree, yes.  I was winging it.  (I don't think he actively hindered ALL efforts by others to encourage Americans to wear masks, because the word certainly got out and a lot of people complied.  He would have rather that not happened, though, and I think you hit on why in an earlier post -- he sees everything as messaging, and masks were evidence that the virus was real, dangerous, and exploding across America.  Masks helped kill his ratings.)

[Goredho 17511]

20 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

I like it here. Should’ve made this move earlier. Reading grown ups typing tough about “safe spaces” and “come to CR” is hilarious. I’d be embarrassed if I ever told somebody else they’re too afraid of a certain part of a message board.

Exactly, no one here says you have to be part of a hive mind.  I disagree with @bad_teammate on many/most things.  He thinks I’m a vapid centrist who stands for nothing and I view him as a zealotous kook who is only better than a Trump devotee because his far-left ideology hasn’t completely taken over the Democratic Party yet.  But we have never negged each other.

The only thing you can’t get away with is posting in bad faith.  Anyone is free to express whatever they want, but they need to be able to back up their opinions with facts and logic.  Otherwise, their experience here will be one of discomfort.

[DaysOff 8005]

that makes sense, the handful of chiropractors I know are all die-hard Trumpkins.  
For the record, I think chiropractic care can help a lot of people.  I've used it myself from time to time, as has my wife.  But I would not take serious medical nor serious political advice from them.  Ever.  

Pure quackery

I demand you call me doctor now

[bad_teammate 13302]

17 minutes ago, Goredho said:

But we have never negged each other.

Think again, vapid centrist! MUAHAHAHA

[Biff Tannen 45767]

23 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Exactly, no one here says you have to be part of a hive mind.  I disagree with @bad_teammate on many/most things.  He thinks I’m a vapid centrist who stands for nothing and I view him as a zealotous kook who is only better than a Trump devotee because his far-left ideology hasn’t completely taken over the Democratic Party yet.  But we have never negged each other.

The only thing you can’t get away with is posting in bad faith.  Anyone is free to express whatever they want, but they need to be able to back up their opinions with facts and logic.  Otherwise, their experience here will be one of discomfort.

lol for the neg from B_T

[Goredho 17511]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Think again, vapid centrist! MUAHAHAHA

See, you can be an idiot, just entertain me 😜

[RomaVicta 30080]

2 hours ago, GRHorn said:

So, here’s the real deal. We’ve discussed this when the thread was on DT so y’all may have missed it. 
 

Trump could’ve done much better. There’s two basic things that he really botched that could’ve made a difference. 1-Shutting down Euro air traffic at same time as China. Our country was being seeded with Covid the whole time and we didn’t know it. 2- more strongly encourage mask usage. This is obvious. 
 

What difference would all the toughest measures had made? Well the “best” performing Western European country was Germany. They were often cited for how well they were doing. They ranked 42nd and had 1,055 deaths per million. We ended up 16th with 1,792 deaths per million. Actually did better than the UK. In the same neighborhood as most of Western Europe. If we got down to German performance with all their measures we would’ve still had 346,000 dead. So better but still a large amount.
 

Some posters here try to act like any number of deaths above zero was directly attributable to one person or political party. That’s just not true. 

Covid was a global calamity and it’s looking more and more like it was visited on the world because of Chinese incompetence. What should be the repercussions for that? I don’t know, but to act like it’s inconsequential to know how this happened is a strange position to me.
 

If one of “Trump’s Virus Labs” had released this to the world this board would be screaming about how horrible we were as a nation. Throwing ourselves at the mercy of the court, suggesting punishments for ourselves. 

Negged for willful distortion. Typical of the right, you place a strange limit on your range of response to the Covid. Western Europe. Why not the world in general? Let me guess:

Quote

In Republic of Korea, from 3 January 2020 to 10:39am CEST, 26 May 2021, there have been 137,682 confirmed cases of COVID-19 with 1,940 deaths, reported to WHO. As of 17 May 2021, a total of 4,674,151 vaccine doses have been administered.

South Korea responded to the virus in a way that the world should have used for a model. It wasn't a secret. It was in the news the whole time. Usually their success was the second or third story after Trump and his death cult were shown dismissing the disease as a threat and decrying any measures to slow its spread.

It's also of note that Western Europe, God help them, often follows our lead. That's another factor in your distortion. I'll neg your second post using Western Europe as well. Medical professionals read journals constantly, at least the competent ones. I know these things as a lay person, and they're obvious to anyone who watches or reads actual news.

[RomaVicta 30080]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

And this is the real issue with right-wingers. Literally every single thing that happens in the universe is political grievance. From the birth of a child to the viral death of an elderly person, ALL of it goes straight through the lens of political grievance.

And if none legitimately exist, just imagine them and then move forward with the imagined oppression as if it is real.

Beyond fucking pathetic.

That is so good. So very true.

[GRHorn 105]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

... you do know that GRhorn isn't a doctor right? He's a fucking chiropractor. Professional back cracker who can get your chakras realigned

No no no I’m a holistic alternative medicine provider. Acupuncture, meditation, ayahuasca trips.  

[Dahobbs 17811]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

Negged for willful distortion. Typical of the right, you place a strange limit on your range of response to the Covid. Western Europe. Why not the world in general? Let me guess:

South Korea responded to the virus in a way that the world should have used for a model. It wasn't a secret. It was in the news the whole time. Usually their success was the second or third story after Trump and his death cult were shown dismissing the disease as a threat and decrying any measures to slow its spread.

It's also of note that Western Europe, God help them, often follows our lead. That's another factor in your distortion. I'll neg your second post using Western Europe as well. Medical professionals read journals constantly, at least the competent ones. I know these things as a lay person, and they're obvious to anyone who watches or reads actual news.

Well, all this and Western Europe was hit hard before us. We pretty much had the most advance notice of any country on the planet. And we squandered it. 

[TexasPride10 580]

I'm no Trump-apologist, but I'll play Devil's advocate here:  Many of you have stated that Trump should have pushed for mask mandates, lockdowns, contact tracing, etc. immediately in February 2020 when the virus first emerged and he found out how bad it could possibly get. I won't argue with any of that; because hindsight is 20/20, and hindsight tells us that had we done all of those things back in February 2020, many lives probably would have been saved. 

So now let's pretend Trump lost the 2016 election and Hillary was in charge back in February 2020. For the sake of the argument, let's say as soon as Hillary found out about the virus in February 2020, she did the "right thing" and came out and said that we shouldn't leave our houses unless it was absolutely necessary and that we should all wear masks if we did absolutely have to go out into public, etc. etc. Does anyone here really think the vast majority of Americans would have just abided by all of those things? Seriously. Close 600k Americans have died of Covid as of today, and there's still a huge chunk of our population that refuses to wear a facemask. There's no way people were going to wear them back when there were only a handful of active cases in the country, regardless of who was telling them to do it. 

The reality is; no matter who was in charge when this whole thing first started you were going to have half the U.S. population wanting to do what the president said, and you were going to have the other half the population saying "SEE?! That's why I didn't vote for this crazy fucker!" Sure, the person that was actually in charge when this whole thing started could have done many things better and more efficiently, but the bottom line is that the American people were never going to handle this thing as well as some other countries. I think we can all probably agree on that.

[GRHorn 105]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

Well, all this and Western Europe was hit hard before us. We pretty much had the most advance notice of any country on the planet. And we squandered it. 

Nonsense. Being the global center of commerce and travel, our country was thoroughly seeded through NYC air traffic before we even really understood what was happening. 
 

4 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Negged for willful distortion. Typical of the right, you place a strange limit on your range of response to the Covid. Western Europe. Why not the world in general? Let me guess:

South Korea responded to the virus in a way that the world should have used for a model. It wasn't a secret. It was in the news the whole time. Usually their success was the second or third story after Trump and his death cult were shown dismissing the disease as a threat and decrying any measures to slow its spread.

It's also of note that Western Europe, God help them, often follows our lead. That's another factor in your distortion. I'll neg your second post using Western Europe as well. Medical professionals read journals constantly, at least the competent ones. I know these things as a lay person, and they're obvious to anyone who watches or reads actual news.

There are genetic and cultural reasons that help explain Asian countries outperformance vs the rest of the world. 

[RomaVicta 30080]

52 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

They’ve also been locked down much harder than us, in a manner that the US population would not have tolerated. 

The US did tolerate lockdown except for the heavily armed loons following the prodding of President Trump. You use this totally unfounded speculation in lieu of a real argument. It's dishonest. Negged again.

[GRHorn 105]

4 minutes ago, TexasPride10 said:

I'm no Trump-apologist, but I'll play Devil's advocate here:  Many of you have stated that Trump should have pushed for mask mandates, lockdowns, contact tracing, etc. immediately in February 2020 when the virus first emerged and he found out how bad it could possibly get. I won't argue with any of that; because hindsight is 20/20, and hindsight tells us that had we done all of those things back in February 2020, many lives probably would have been saved. 

So now let's pretend Trump lost the 2016 election and Hillary was in charge back in February 2020. For the sake of the argument, let's say as soon as Hillary found out about the virus in February 2020, she did the "right thing" and came out and said that we shouldn't leave our houses unless it was absolutely necessary and that we should all wear masks if we did absolutely have to go out into public, etc. etc. Does anyone here really think the vast majority of Americans would have just abided by all of those things? Seriously. Close 600k Americans have died of Covid as of today, and there's still a huge chunk of our population that refuses to wear a facemask. There's no way people were going to wear them back when there were only a handful of active cases in the country, regardless of who was telling them to do it. 

The reality is; no matter who was in charge when this whole thing first started you were going to have half the U.S. population wanting to do what the president said, and you were going to have the other half the population saying "SEE?! That's why I didn't vote for this crazy fucker!" Sure, the person that was actually in charge when this whole thing started could have done many things better and more efficiently, but the bottom line is that the American people were never going to handle this thing as well as some other countries. I think we can all probably agree on that.

These are some of the cultural reasons I was referencing. We are a risk taking culture, and a stubborn one. We would never lock the fuck down Australia style. Or do the strict tracing like South Korea. We’re also fat.

[Mdhorn 6097]

38 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I don't know whether to put this in the political political COVID thread or the nonpolitical political COVID thread, but it is important because disinfo has an enormous effect.

 

In a house rental several doors down, the owner/landlord who also resided there died from covid.  We asked a tenant last week if they had gotten vaccinated and they responded no because the vaccine has been killing people.  Told them that was a hoax and they should get vaccinated, especially since it's free and walkup now.  What more can you do?     

[wildcat09 29453]

5 minutes ago, TexasPride10 said:

I'm no Trump-apologist, but I'll play Devil's advocate here:  Many of you have stated that Trump should have pushed for mask mandates, lockdowns, contact tracing, etc. immediately in February 2020 when the virus first emerged and he found out how bad it could possibly get. I won't argue with any of that; because hindsight is 20/20, and hindsight tells us that had we done all of those things back in February 2020, many lives probably would have been saved. 

So now let's pretend Trump lost the 2016 election and Hillary was in charge back in February 2020. For the sake of the argument, let's say as soon as Hillary found out about the virus in February 2020, she did the "right thing" and came out and said that we shouldn't leave our houses unless it was absolutely necessary and that we should all wear masks if we did absolutely have to go out into public, etc. etc. Does anyone here really think the vast majority of Americans would have just abided by all of those things? Seriously. Close 600k Americans have died of Covid as of today, and there's still a huge chunk of our population that refuses to wear a facemask. There's no way people were going to wear them back when there were only a handful of active cases in the country, regardless of who was telling them to do it. 

The reality is; no matter who was in charge when this whole thing first started you were going to have half the U.S. population wanting to do what the president said, and you were going to have the other half the population saying "SEE?! That's why I didn't vote for this crazy fucker!" Sure, the person that was actually in charge when this whole thing started could have done many things better and more efficiently, but the bottom line is that the American people were never going to handle this thing as well as some other countries. I think we can all probably agree on that.

Conservatives never would've listened to a President Hillary. But most of them would have listened to Trump if he'd told them it was bad, it was airborne, and to sacrifice for America or whatever by social distancing, masking, and cooperating with tracing efforts. And because liberals and conservatives aren't actually two sides of the same coin. Liberals also would've done the same because we don't actually politicize everything; we took the pandemic seriously because it was a fucking pandemic, not because we thought doing so made Trump look bad.

[wildcat09 29453]

2 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

These are some of the cultural reasons I was referencing. We are a risk taking culture, and a stubborn one. We would never lock the fuck down Australia style. Or do the strict tracing like South Korea. We’re also fat.

"Australians are not a risk taking culture" might be your funniest take ever.

[Mdhorn 6097]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Conservatives never would've listened to a President Hillary. But most of them would have listened to Trump if he'd told them it was bad, it was airborne, and to sacrifice for America or whatever by social distancing, masking, and cooperating with tracing efforts. And because liberals and conservatives aren't actually two sides of the same coin. Liberals also would've done the same because we don't actually politicize everything; we took the pandemic seriously because it was a fucking pandemic, not because we thought doing so made Trump look bad.

And just some of this would've won him the election most likely.  Some middle ground mental gymnasts are doing their best to give him the benefit of the doubt.  But it's all or nothing with tyrants.   

Edited May 26, 2021 by Mdhorn

[TexasPride10 580]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Conservatives never would've listened to a President Hillary. But most of them would have listened to Trump if he'd told them it was bad, it was airborne, and to sacrifice for America or whatever by social distancing, masking, and cooperating with tracing efforts. And because liberals and conservatives aren't actually two sides of the same coin. Liberals also would've done the same because we don't actually politicize everything; we took the pandemic seriously because it was a fucking pandemic, not because we thought doing so made Trump look bad.

Man, I just don't know if I agree with that. I can't flat-out say you're wrong, because there's no way to know what would have happened in a hypothetical situation. But I have a hard time believing that Hillary supporters would have been accepting of Trump coming out and saying "Look, I know there are only 6 active cases of this virus in our country right now, but if we don't lock everything down and start wearing face masks when we step out into public, over half a million people are going to die!". I have a feeling most people on the left would have said "See?! I told you he was Hitler!". 

Edited May 26, 2021 by TexasPride10

[jimmyjazz 46477]

13 minutes ago, TexasPride10 said:

So now let's pretend Trump lost the 2016 election and Hillary was in charge back in February 2020. For the sake of the argument, let's say as soon as Hillary found out about the virus in February 2020, she did the "right thing" and came out and said that we shouldn't leave our houses unless it was absolutely necessary and that we should all wear masks if we did absolutely have to go out into public, etc. etc. Does anyone here really think the vast majority of Americans would have just abided by all of those things? Seriously. Close 600k Americans have died of Covid as of today, and there's still a huge chunk of our population that refuses to wear a facemask. There's no way people were going to wear them back when there were only a handful of active cases in the country, regardless of who was telling them to do it. 

Well, the city of Austin canceled SXSW on March 6, 2020 and while a whole lot of people were disappointed, the near-universal response was understanding and agreement. 

It's just one anecdote, but I think people were plenty capable of seeing how bad this thing was getting, even early on.

[GRHorn 105]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

The US did tolerate lockdown except for the heavily armed loons following the prodding of President Trump. You use this totally unfounded speculation in lieu of a real argument. It's dishonest. Negged again.

So you’re saying the US didn’t tolerate being locked down? Ok thanks for clearing it up.
 

Your posts will be more effective if they don’t contradict themselves. And since you like explaining your rep choices I’ll explain mine. Don’t worry, you’re good. I almost never neg people because I’m generally positive and I don’t take this too seriously. It’s just anonymous internet chat. 
 

Keep fighting the good fight. 

[BabaYaga 15375]

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Liberals also would've done the same because we don't actually politicize everything

[RomaVicta 30080]

4 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Nonsense. Being the global center of commerce and travel, our country was thoroughly seeded through NYC air traffic before we even really understood what was happening. 
 

There are genetic and cultural reasons that help explain Asian countries outperformance vs the rest of the world. 

So, America can't compete?

It's becoming clear that this narrowing of the argument about international response to the virus teamed with America is so different, nobody could have got them to do the smart thing defines the apologist position. 

South Korea performed well for genetic (racial) reasons? That has a familiar, foul scent as well. 

Again, America did and does respond to national crisis when well competently led (without malign obstructionism from the opposition party).

I will respond to the Hillary hypothetical posed by Texas Pride. I agree that much of the US would not have followed her lead not because of the wild, rugged, liberty-loving American character. The entirity of the GOP in Congress would have been muddying the waters as part of their insane megalomania. 

Clinton's presidency would have been a disaster because the GOP wouldn't allow it to be otherwise no matter how much the GOP had to damage the USA. That's my hypothetical. 

I suspect the Trumpists will now leap to argue about Hillary Clinton as another deflection. I only bring her up in response to someone else's hypothetical regarding this issue.

[GRHorn 105]

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

"Australians are not a risk taking culture" might be your funniest take ever.

Americans like to fuck around and find out. Australians gave up their weapons of self defense. 

[BabaYaga 15375]

16 hours ago, Continental Op said:

The virus came from somewhere in China, be it from a wet market or a lab.  We need to figure out what happened and try to keep it from happening again.

Agreed.  Especially after Fauci finally admitted it might have been an accidental lab release

Quote

Biden administration terminated Trump-era probe into possibility of Wuhan lab leak

 

[wildcat09 29453]

Just now, GRHorn said:

Americans like to fuck around and find out. Australians gave up their weapons of self defense. 

Wait, you think carrying a gun around all of the time because you think you might need to use it in self defense is an indication that you're more open to risk than someone who doesn't?

[jimmyjazz 46477]

12 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

"Australians are not a risk taking culture" might be your funniest take ever.

New Zealanders think Aussies are pussies.  (I am a close friend of two NZ brothers, and holy smokes those guys are insane.)

[wildcat09 29453]

He didn't even have a gun to shoot that kangaroo with. What a pussy!

[TexasPride10 580]

7 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Again, America did and does respond to national crisis when well competently led (without malign obstructionism from the opposition party).

Fair point, but I just think that's an impossible scenario. The majority of the country is too set into their ways (as far as left vs right is concerned). As I mentioned before in a different post, if Trump had come out super early and suggested the lockdowns and mask mandates, every democratic leader would have used that to further push their point that Trump wanted to be a ruthless dictator. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by TexasPride10

[RomaVicta 30080]

3 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

So you’re saying the US didn’t tolerate being locked down? Ok thanks for clearing it up.
 

Your posts will be more effective if they don’t contradict themselves. And since you like explaining your rep choices I’ll explain mine. Don’t worry, you’re good. I almost never neg people because I’m generally positive and I don’t take this too seriously. It’s just anonymous internet chat. 
 

Keep fighting the good fight. 

Ah yes, routed from your first two ditches, you settle into your last ditch: illogical dismissing of what you read. Implicit in my post is the likelihood that the loons would have stayed home had their cult leader told them to.

You wouldn't know a good fight if you saw one. Your reason to fight is absent goodness, decency, integrity, honesty, or any other easily attained virtues associated with "good."

You're an amateur operative, plain and simple. 

[wildcat09 29453]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

If you think any of us would risk dying horribly and alone of a respiratory disease to own some conservatives you’re extremely mistaken.

[BabaYaga 15375]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

If you think any of us would risk dying horribly and alone of a respiratory disease to own some conservatives you’re extremely mistaken.

Quote

Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi toured San Francisco’s Chinatown Monday to send a message. She said there’s no reason tourists or locals should be staying away from the area out of fear over coronavirus concerns. Mark Matthews reports.

 

[RomaVicta 30080]

3 minutes ago, TexasPride10 said:

Fair point, but I just think that's an impossible scenario. The majority of the country is too set into their ways (as far as left vs right is concerned). As I mentioned before in a different post, if Trump had come out super early and suggested the lockdowns and mask mandates, every democratic leader would have used that to further push their point that Trump wanted to be a ruthless dictator. 

I disagree completely, but we don't need another argument about the hypothetical. Thanks for responding to my post.

[wildcat09 29453]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

 

You know there's a perfectly good explanation for that that isn't "FUCK TRUMP!" right?